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State of the Dungeon Crowd - Good or Bad?

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#1 Dasryn

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:30 PM

Hello community.  I am an avid dungon runner.  For me, running dungeons is the best thing about the MMORPG genre.  As we all know, there is a fairly competent LFG tool in th form of a website: GW2LFG.com

for the most part, it allows players to find groups fast and its extremely useful, but ive begun to notice that some things just dont sit right with me about the people using this website, please reference:

Posted Image

and id like to say these cases are few and far between but then we have:

Posted Image

folks, imho, this is pretty ridiculous.  Running a dungeon requires skill, and teamwork and IMHO, for a guild, its one of the best ways to build team and comraderie.

i want to know how you guys, the community, feels about the above screen shots.  Tell me if you agree with this behavior.  if so, why?  and vice versa.

Personally, i disagree, please help me understand why you as the playerbase would strip the game of its values for the "quick buck" so to speak.

thank you in advanced.

EDIT: added screenshots, sorry ^_^

Edited by Rickter, 21 March 2013 - 09:30 PM.


#2 Lydeck

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:32 PM

What screenshots?

#3 Westwater

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:34 PM

I wonder if Anet could find some way to punish groups for taking more than 3 of the same class.  Like a reduced drop rate or increased difficulty or something.  It would at the very least force groups to bring along some other class besides warriors and a mesmer.

#4 matsif

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:49 PM

I really hope anet decided to blow up CoF and redo it like they did AC this past patch.  All the above screens show is how unbalanced the difficulty is between dungeons and certain paths, and how the scrubs migrate to the most unbalanced one and then complain that 1 warrior not in full zerker took an extra minute out of their life.  It's ridiculous, and as ridiculous as after anet decided to allow perma-shadow form in GW1 to take over most forms of PvE farming in elite areas.

Anet drops a hammer on CoF (especially path 1), the tears are delicious, and then the mindless pugs wait a week and cry the whole time until they find the next fastest dungeon run for mindless pugs.

#5 Eola Ennea

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:17 PM

Someone should remind them what "play" means...

Seriously, though, if someone is a No-Fun-Clubber wanting a bunch of other No Fun Clubbers to farm with, then I'm glad they're honest about it from the get-go, rather than wasting anyone's time. In the meantime, I'll be doing something fun with my helpful & forgiving guildies and actually enjoying the game.

#6 dannywolt

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:28 PM

It's perfectly fine. Meta-teams are only a problem if they become the only way to run a dungeon. OP's screenshots represent one moment in time. I pulled up gw2lfg.com just now.

Unfiltered:
Posted Image

Nice diversity here: 8 of the 9 dungeons have activity in the last 2 minutes with FotM being the most popular.

CoF:
Posted Image

Only 6 out of 30 postings ask for a specific profession. I ran CoF with a guildie yesterday and we had a full group within a minute of posting for more members. The random pug is alive and well in GW2.

I also speed-run CoF daily with serious farmers. My group last night had some runs < 6 minutes (so I was told, not verified by me). Half the fun is trying to maximize efficiency and it takes skill to do so.

I see this mix of casual and hardcore CoF runs to be a good thing. Isn't demanding that everyone do casual runs just as restricting as running a designed speed-farm team?

#7 Dasryn

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:36 PM

right, you pulled up gw2lfg just now, the screens i got were right after server reset.

and its not about popularity ofthe dungeon, look at the demands i nthe first screenshot.

im talking about the personality of player base, not preferred dungeons

#8 NuclearDonut

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:53 PM

View PostWestwater, on 21 March 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

I wonder if Anet could find some way to punish groups for taking more than 3 of the same class.  Like a reduced drop rate or increased difficulty or something.  It would at the very least force groups to bring along some other class besides warriors and a mesmer.

No no no no no. This is totally against the philosphy of "play the class you want to play". My 4 guildies that I do dungeons with all play Thieves (I'm the only one not playing Thief) and we work well together. If I was punished for playing with them I may quit the game.

#9 El Duderino

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:55 PM

View PostRickter, on 21 March 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

folks, imho, this is pretty ridiculous.  Running a dungeon requires skill, and teamwork and IMHO, for a guild, its one of the best ways to build team and comraderie.

i want to know how you guys, the community, feels about the above screen shots.  Tell me if you agree with this behavior.  if so, why?  and vice versa.

Personally, i disagree, please help me understand why you as the playerbase would strip the game of its values for the "quick buck" so to speak.


1. If the dungeons can be run quickly and easily, that means they don't require skill or teamwork.

2. Who are you to say how people should run dungeons? If it's what they want to do, then they should be allowed to do it. Unless, of course, you think that dungeons are somehow broken and that is what is causing your perceived problem.

Basically, either it's you or the game that has a problem. People are just doing what people do.

Edited by El Duderino, 21 March 2013 - 09:57 PM.


#10 Dasryn

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:02 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 21 March 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

1. If the dungeons can be run quickly and easily, that means they don't require skill or teamwork.

2. Who are you to say how people should run dungeons? If it's what they want to do, then they should be allowed to do it. Unless, of course, you think that dungeons are somehow broken and that is what is causing your perceived problem.

Basically, either it's you or the game that has a problem. People are just doing what people do.
im entitled to my opinions and i have stated such very specifically.

so if you think this is within proper gaming ethics, can you explain why you think so?  i stated that i personally dontagree with it but maybe you can help me understand.

#11 Cube

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:10 PM

I don't see the problem. I either join them or I make my own group where people can go whatever they want. What is the problem with these people wanting to do a dungeon quick? What is the problem with them playing a different way to other people?

I don't even farm CoF, I find teams for other things that I want to do. How come it's wrong when they team for something they want that isn't what you want? Why don't you 'agree' with that? What's there to agree or disagree with in the first place lol.

Running dungeons require skills, that's probably why he's asking for a gear check to see if the guy joining isn't a noob.

#12 El Duderino

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:17 PM

View PostRickter, on 21 March 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:


im entitled to my opinions and i have stated such very specifically.

so if you think this is within proper gaming ethics, can you explain why you think so?  i stated that i personally dontagree with it but maybe you can help me understand.

I think the problem is that you think there are gaming ethics. Either something is allowed or against the ToS, nothing else. And even that isn't unethical or not - it's just an agreement between the developer and the user.

There are no ethics in MMOs.

And I already said it is up to people to do what they want to do. Why should we stand in the way if it isn't a problem with the game itself?

#13 Dasryn

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:19 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 21 March 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

I think the problem is that you think there are gaming ethics. Either something is allowed or against the ToS, nothing else. And even that isn't unethical or not - it's just an agreement between the developer and the user.

There are no ethics in MMOs.

And I already said it is up to people to do what they want to do. Why should we stand in the way if it isn't a problem with the game itself?

as with most communities, there is a certain degree of ethics.  the absence of ethics breeds a poor community.

in any degree, we arent here to argue whether there are ethics or not, i simply want to understand this behavior, agree or idsagree, thats all man.

Edited by Rickter, 21 March 2013 - 10:20 PM.


#14 El Duderino

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:40 PM

View PostRickter, on 21 March 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:



as with most communities, there is a certain degree of ethics.  the absence of ethics breeds a poor community.

in any degree, we arent here to argue whether there are ethics or not, i simply want to understand this behavior, agree or idsagree, thats all man.

I can't agree or disagree on the premise that the player base would "strip the game of its values" when I don't think that they are doing that.

If you want, I will agree that it is fine for players to do whatever it is they want to do, as long as it is within the rules of the ToS and even then I don't agree with everything the ToS says. I disagree that they are doing anything against the values of the game as there are no written values anywhere or agreed upon by the community. I thought I had made that clear. You're upset becuase people that have nothing to do with you are playing the game other than you would like them to play.

#15 Krazzar

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:44 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 21 March 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

I think the problem is that you think there are gaming ethics. Either something is allowed or against the ToS, nothing else. And even that isn't unethical or not - it's just an agreement between the developer and the user.

There are no ethics in MMOs.

And I already said it is up to people to do what they want to do. Why should we stand in the way if it isn't a problem with the game itself?


Hypocrisy is hilarious: http://www.guildwars...-vs-experience/

As for both of you; least efforts theory.

Edited by Krazzar, 21 March 2013 - 10:45 PM.


#16 El Duderino

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:52 PM

View PostKrazzar, on 21 March 2013 - 10:44 PM, said:




Hypocrisy is hilarious: http://www.guildwars...-vs-experience/

As for both of you; least efforts theory.

Since when does a theory of how people behave have anything to do with making a game interesting?

Also, the difference is that I think there is a problem with the game, Rickseter doesn't. Therefore, it's not hypocrisy.

Although it is funny we both find it odd that people spend their time playing the game for extrinsic rewards rather than intrinsic reasons. What Rickster doesn't agree with is that it is intentionally designed that way by the devs and it's design does not lead to a sustainable game by itself.

#17 Inraged Twitch

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:22 PM

If anything it takes MORE teamwork to speed run a dungeon punishing people for figuring out how to run a dungeon faster is the stupidest idea ever.

Just like with UW speed clear or trenchway DOA.  Vets of GW1 will know how ****ing ridiculous it was trying to run those maps with a "pug" type class system

Yes I realize gw1 and 2 are completely different games.

#18 Featherman

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:27 PM

Least efforts theory is often used to find breaks in a game's systems, or in this case the content design and operant strategies. What we're basically seeing here is one aspect of the game, CoF, trivializing the rest of the game. It's like when those action games give you 20-30 unique combo chains, but players can beat the entire game with little difficulty by spamming the only one of those combos. It's worse when that one combo is the logistically preferred method.

#19 dannywolt

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:32 PM

View PostRickter, on 21 March 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

and its not about popularity ofthe dungeon, look at the demands i nthe first screenshot.

im talking about the personality of player base, not preferred dungeons

These are two totally separate issues and we must be careful in trying to relate them. Does assembling a specific team equal bad personality? Not at all. There are many valid reasons for restricting the team composition.

So we are left with two separate questions:

1. Have meta team builds replaced the ability of a regular pugger to find a dungeon group? My experience says no. I pug 99.5% of my dungeon runs. I pugged my way to Dungeon Master. I do random pugs in FotM regularly. In over a thousand runs, I have never been kicked from a group.


2. Is the personality of dungeon runners bad? You'll find jerks anywhere in the game. Actually, I have found fewer in the organized teams than in random pugs. I can remember only one occasion where someone was setting up a CoF speed-farm group and being a jerk about it.


By setting a minimum bar to entry you eliminate the players who don't care enough to work hard for something. When I first started running CoF, I didn't have the gear or skills to run at the level I do now, so I invested time and effort to getting what I needed. Now I run with pro groups.


Profession restriction has no definite link to the personality of a player or group. If you want to run with the designed teams, meet the requirements and they will be happy to have you; the majority are quite friendly. If you can't be bothered to put in the effort to meet the requirements, there are plenty of random pugs that run dungeons perfectly well.

#20 VanderBeltLegacy

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:49 PM

i see it like this, if people want to fast farm a dungeon, go for it, for all i know some of them could have little time through out there day to spend to much time in a dungeon+do there dailies or Crafting etc.

what i don't agree with is some of the higher tier dungeons being easier then the lower tier dungeons, but thats not Zerker runners/gear checkers fault, it's anets and they admitted that and they are looking at over hauling the dungeons and amping them up.

also another fact, if people can find fast ways to do something there gonna do it, im not against that, as also pointed out, ANET did not want this game to be class restrictive, i can make a post on gw2lfg.com and make a mix team for dungeon's or i canmessage my friend in game who can get a team set of mix playing and we do CoF p1 really fast anyway, the fact is, it's not a giant player base doing zerker runs, like CoE is another easy dungeon, theres ways to make it easier, but if people dont wanna play that style we dont force them. FotM lets say the dredge one, theres ways to skip to the third room, you can "A") run up towards the 1 room, jump the fence walk around the cage, speed boost every1 jumps over and that saves about 1 minute of your life, but stops having to split up for players who cant survive with only 4, or theres "B") run up the scaffholing to the other side of path 3, have a mesmer slap down a portal, jump over to the piping blink into room 3, dump a portal, go stealth and run to it's switch why every 1 else comes in(get stealthed) and do there thing aswell, or even have a thief stealth the sitch why 2 others stand on the pressure plates....also with the dredge boss at the carrier spawn, you can hid in a alcove just outside the room lure the dredge there and kill them fast in one aoe avoiding the boss or you can run to the other side of the room and pull the boss away from the spawns taking him out first....or completely different just do it all normally, no 1 forces you to be in on these runs, and we as a community shouldn't ridicule the people who wanna do it fast/different, and when joining a group it pays to ask if it's a skip/speed/glitch run or normal run.

what i find the most sad, is spamming for hours for a CoF p3 run and getting no takers.

#21 mdapol

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:57 PM

Letting people play the way they want and do elite dungeon runs is all fun and good until it becomes so rampant that you are handicapped in your ability to play the way -you- want because everyone else is doing it the elitist way.  Or another way to say it is, "I don't mind discrimination as long as I am not being discriminated against."  (the ultimate hypocricy)

I think the OP is just worried about a disturbing trend developing and wants to either be comforted or have said trend stopped before it gets out of hand.

#22 Millimidget

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:06 AM

Like you, Ricketer, I'm a strong proponent of dungeon crawls in MMOs. One of the greatest losses to the genre has been the death of quality dungeons. Dungeons today are so heavily designed for the lowest common denominator that virtually anything which made them enjoyable has been designed out of the genre.

View PostRickter, on 21 March 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

folks, imho, this is pretty ridiculous.  Running a dungeon requires skill, and teamwork and IMHO, for a guild, its one of the best ways to build team and comraderie.
You basically answer your question here; if you approach dungeons with your guild, then what issue is it to you if other players are particularly exclusive about who/what they bring to a dungeon?

Is this really about an overarching trend in the community, or about your own personal inability to engage those trends?

View PostRickter, on 21 March 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

i want to know how you guys, the community, feels about the above screen shots.  Tell me if you agree with this behavior.  if so, why?  and vice versa.

Personally, i disagree, please help me understand why you as the playerbase would strip the game of its values for the "quick buck" so to speak.
There's only so many hours in a day, days in a week, weeks in a month, etc.

I would rather spend a few minutes before starting a dungeon certifying that everyone is similarly prepared for the dungeon, then to find out halfway through the dungeon that someone is woefully undergeared or underskilled for the content.

That undergeared or underskilled player may be approaching the game in a manner that's acceptable for themselves, but once they've chosen to enter a dungeon their performance now impacts the rest of the group.

I'm only looking out for myself and the three other members of the group. For what its worth, I'm not into speed running CoF, and when I did heavily grind dungeons in this game, I only excluded players based on class given the rest of the group's current makeup. And unless I knew the entire group was familiar with the content, I would take the time to explain encounters beforehand.

That doesn't seem elitist to me; that seems considerate, unlike the undergeared and underskilled player feeling entitled to a spot in a dungeon group simply because they're logged in. If they want a spot, they can form their own group (just as I have done), but I imagine they're as incapable of that as they are of compiling decent gear or selecting a decent build....hence why they resort to whining about being excluded, because they feel entitled.

View PostFeatherman, on 21 March 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

Least efforts theory is often used to find breaks in a game's systems, or in this case the content design and operant strategies.
To be fair, the game feels unrewarding, and very much grindfest, when playing it the "intended" way. I couldn't bring myself to play the game the way CoF speed runners do; I see no point in playing the game at all when that's the preferred method of playing it. But it's not like the game really supports other approaches; I mean to say, they took some acceptably complex dungeon layouts and then ruined them with the path system, and that blanket token reward system is homogeneously awful.

Edited by Millimidget, 22 March 2013 - 12:13 AM.


#23 Perm Shadow Form

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:09 AM

Quick nerf everything so people can't farm and those who have no money and don't want to do anything to get it stop whining!

*spent 100g yesterday on a Commander Book and farmed 7g in 2 hours today.

Edited by Perm Shadow Form, 22 March 2013 - 12:10 AM.


#24 plstryagain

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:13 AM

Wanted to join a CoF party path 1. They asked me if i am a warrior full zerk, same happened for about 30 mins then i gave up. I am a condition dmg necro.

#25 Millimidget

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:16 AM

View Postplstryagain, on 22 March 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Wanted to join a CoF party path 1. They asked me if i am a warrior full zerk, same happened for about 30 mins then i gave up. I am a condition dmg necro.
Make a post starting your own group on gw2lfg.com. Do not list it as a CoF speed run, even if you're doing path 1. Possibly consider adding in a comment which will totally dissuade speed runners from even contacting you regarding it.

Problem solved.

#26 El Duderino

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:52 AM

It is a shame how far from MUDS, from whence MMO'S were born, we have come.

Much less exploration and much more compensation.

#27 Bryant Again

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:08 AM

People are always going to run with what they know is effective and what's comfortable for them. You'll see this is nearly every game, and you'll definitely see it in GW2. What's important is having that 'commonly accepted strategy' (to put it broadly) not be mandatory. If anything I think the thing to blame is how easy CoF is.

As a sidenote: Does anyone think that gw2lfg.com is working, er, too well? I've had a lot of trouble finding a group that wasn't immediately full. Ain't hatin', since it's great to at least have some form of LFG tool.

Edited by Bryant Again, 22 March 2013 - 02:21 AM.


#28 Zylo

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:25 AM

There are people with a casual mentality to the game, and there are people who want everything done as quickly as possible. Generally, both of these extremes say that the way the other plays the game should be changed, because it's wrong. As if one playstyle is "more correct" than any other.

The players looking for full zerker warriors are merely those who want the content done as quickly as possible, because it's efficient. Complaining about the fact that they want zerker warriors isn't the right complaint, because that is the absolute fastest way to do cof. The complaint should merely be on anet for having a dungeon which is run in this way.

#29 lollasaurus

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:28 AM

And who exactly is forcing you to run COF?  That is pretty much the only dungeon that you see pug groups *force* a certain type of party composition.  One mesmer and 4 experienced and optimally geared warriors is the fastest way to burn through that dungeon, are you trying to say that people should not do whats optimal just because it doesn't sit well with you?  Not really your place to tell people what kinda groups they should or shouldn't run.  If you dislike how it is run well then....
























Surprise:  You can always start your own group with whatever classes and diversity of players you so choose.

Edited by NotKMoose, 22 March 2013 - 01:37 AM.


#30 Trei

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:23 AM

Own list group start yes





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