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Why so much hate?


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#1 Mizpah

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 08:59 PM

Just a general question. I am not trying to troll or flame, but I have been wondering about this for near 6 months now. After reading these forums since November pretty actively I see so much negativity about the game and pretty much anything Arena Net does. I've read so many posts about everything wrong with the game, conspiracy theories, and doomsday prophets it's like tuning into the evening news. It's not just the members, but I have seen some pretty negative stuff from the moderators too.

I am not trying to defend this game (I for one love it and play it often and probably will for a long time).However, I have to wonder why any effort or energy is spent about something that posters obviously hate. If there is a game I don't like, I drop it and move on. Why come back and keep posting the same ol' complaints everytime a patch comes out? Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I don't get it.

Granted, the content I read is limited because I read the top posts given to me through apps like Pulse and Flipboard. I don't seem to find much negativity when I read through subforums like Vigil Academy and Hall of Heroes. In fact, those forums seemed to be filled with posts that are genuinely helpful and praiseful about the game. So I understand that many members here are not actively hating the game.

So, because of all this stuff I've seen, I find myself using GW2guru less and less these days. In fact, I haven't used it for the past month, but since the last patch I decided to drop back in and see what people are saying. It's getting pretty predictable - you can expect a lot of negativity once any new patch comes out. Which brings me back to one of my original points, if you don't like what ArenaNet is doing, why continue to invest your time into playing it?

#2 Gerroh

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:03 PM

"Hate" can be divided into three categories based on who is doing the hating.
1) Stupid people who are bordering on conspiracy theorists, thinking Anet is involved in some incredibly complex captalist scheme to siphon all their money away.
2) Normal people who have semi-legitimate complaints, but their complaints are largely about them being bad at the game masked as "this game is too hard".
3) Smart people who offer valid criticism and point out what Anet actually did wrong in the hopes that it's fixed in the future.

I, of course, am always of the third kind.

Extending on the third kind sort of thing and relating to your 2nd paragraph; if we take the "I don't like it, I'll just do something else" approach, then the potential for a great game is lost. If you want to have a game be the best it can be, you need to point out what's wrong so it can be fixed. You need to ask for what you'd like to see and discuss it with others so that Anet can see that and go "You know what, guys? They're right. This effort to make karma and gold completely separate is futile and stupid, let's enable conversion slightly"- as an example.

Edited by Gerroh, 03 April 2013 - 09:06 PM.


#3 El Duderino

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:12 PM

Disappointment on my end, not hate.

I just want the game that I was promised - something similar to GW1.

As a predominantly PvP player from GW1, I feel completely let down by the developers.

And, as I continue to get told that my opinion doesn't matter because GW2 is supposed to be this great game that dwarfs everything GW1, then I pretty much find myself looking at the two games and trying to figure out why I liked GW1 so much and why GW2 doesn't do it for me.

Sadly, many people take this as attacking or hating the game and get really defensive. In reality, I think it is important to try and figure out what about games is good and what isn't

#4 Mizpah

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:34 PM

Thank you.

I agree with both Gerroh's and El Duderino's views, and I think both topics are valid. I suppose I see ( or perhaps focus) on posts that fall into categories 1 & 2 in Gerroh's post. Very nicely written btw. I believe that the game does need work, and players should share/discuss in hopes Anet listens and learns from their players (which they have done before too)

That being said I hope more posts are written by the "smart people" who offer constructive criticsm, or I learn to identify those sort of posts for what they are.

Edited by Mizpah, 03 April 2013 - 09:36 PM.


#5 Swoopeh

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:35 PM

It's most likely a combination of disappointment, frustration and narrow mindedness. "Something didn't plan out like I wanted, the only reason I can think of is [insert conspiracy theory] so that is the truth". The human brain takes the path of least resistance and categorizes things automatically by default to make it more efficient. Problem is that that causes black-and-white thinking which people should be mindful of when discussing things with others who have a different view. I mean it's fine to have a discussion but spewing hate towards the developer and the other posters is really not conducive to proceedings.

This is the same with every game though, the Guru forums are no worse than MMO-C, Bioware, Cryptic, etc forums. Whenever people flock together you get this behaviour, and since we're group animals you soon find bandwagons filled with angry people going all over the place.

Disclaimer: this is purely about hate posts with little to no constructive content. Of course it's fine to discuss and if you're not happy with a product you should be able to tell the company (not on a 3rd party forum) so they at least know.

#6 StormDragonZ

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:05 PM

GW2 was to be the end-all difference maker in MMO and/or online gaming, in said to being against the typical norm. So tell me, what is different about GW2 than most current MMO games, or standard top-selling ones out there, besides the fact it has no required subscription fee?

GW2 is just like most online games out there now. It's an overrated, supersaturated form of dress-up. Period.

#7 Arewn

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:12 PM

I believe a primary factor is that there are a number of loud frustrated GW1 fans/players who are hung up on the game still.
GW1 was a fairly niche title, >7mil copies sold in 8someodd years, divided into 4 games, divided into 3 global regions (NA, Europe, Asia), with a player base made up of passionate players who specifically came back for the tailored experience GW1 offered every new campaign. It was also a fairly unique game type, being a co-rpg bordering on MMO status with a unique business model for the time.
The players were desiring and expecting a new campaign, but instead it was stamped out and replaced with GW2, an entirely different beast. Which, very understandably, is something some people would be mad at, they are just in being so.
What happens when you change a dedicated player's favorite thing? well, they might embrace it and love it. But there's a damned good chance they have a rejection reaction and hate it endlessly.
Then you look at GW2guru, a forum that's been around since long before GW2 released. And who's going to frequent a forum for an unreleased game by a developer who only has one other game? the players of the other game.

Now look at what happened when GW2 released. You primarily saw a bunch of WoW players that hated and complained about it because it was different for an MMO. But these players quickly left and went to play MoP. And then you had a bunch of GW1 players get slapped in the face by the reality that  GW2 really is entirely different from GW1, then hate it and complain. They didn't have anything to go back to though, so those who stayed were more or less forced to by the lack of alternatives, jaded as they may be and desiring change.
Obviously there's plenty of GW1 players delighted by GW2, but of course who's louder? someone satisfied or someone who's angry at having their favorite toy taken away.
Compounded with the fact that negativity attracts negativity, and forums are primarily a place to complain in the first place, and you have a very negative forums.

This may just be my bias as an observer with no stats to back it up, but even now I find the majority of negative threads/posts on guru are by people who are GW1 fans/players.

And before people are jumping on my back about it, do note I'm NOT saying "it's all GW1 player's fault", "GW2 is perfect so all complaints are unjustified", "all bad threads are by GW1 players", "anything a gw1 player says is an unjust complaint, not a legitimate criticism", or anything else equally extreme that puts words in my mouth...

#8 Bloggi

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:34 PM

Perhaps it's because everyone has a voice and they feel they are entitled to an opinion. And they are. But what they choose to do with their time is not for us to decide. People may dislike the game and hardly play it anymore but still want to be heard on the forums and so they post up. That's fine really. It just takes up their time to post, and some pixels on the internet, no issue. If I read those posts or threads and have nothing good to add, I move on.

I admit the game has some bits that aren't exactly likable, but overall as a package it delivers much more than what I paid for it, and for that I am happy. In the distant past I used to write product reviews, and any reviewer worth his/ her salt is usually able to comment on both the pros and cons of a product. Everything has its weaknesses and some key issues. But we also need to give a product an overall rating based on the entire package. For that, GW2 gets a 4 out of 5 for me. It's a really fun game to play.

#9 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:58 PM

Because most of the original members of this forum were HARDCORE GW1 fans(myself included). A lot of us take GW2 as an insult, to we who stayed loyal, throughout the GW1 years. We gained nothing from GW2.

ArenaNet took the game we thought a masterpiece (GW1), used the world we loved and made a sequel that is...hardly.. Guild Wars.

In other words, a lot of us feel as if ArenaNet humiliated and offended us GW1 players by taking what we loved and half-assing every aspect of the sequel. GW2 is 1/10th of what it should be. The story, the characters, the lore, the gameplay, the music that we loved in GW1... we hoped and dreamed the masterpiece of those aspects would be carried onto GW2. And to say the least, our dreams were shattered.

And then there are the players that simply, are disappointed in GW2, because really, it doesn't offer much, it could be much more than it could be, it's a huge grind fest, the manifesto lies, it lacks too much content to be considered "massive."

#10 Rinaldo

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:59 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 03 April 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

Disappointment on my end, not hate.

I just want the game that I was promised - something similar to GW1.

As a predominantly PvP player from GW1, I feel completely let down by the developers.

And, as I continue to get told that my opinion doesn't matter because GW2 is supposed to be this great game that dwarfs everything GW1, then I pretty much find myself looking at the two games and trying to figure out why I liked GW1 so much and why GW2 doesn't do it for me.

Sadly, many people take this as attacking or hating the game and get really defensive. In reality, I think it is important to try and figure out what about games is good and what isn't

:) I agree completely with what you said.
I liked GW1 so much that I bought the collector and I was waiting with great hopes.....I was sadly deluded at the beta, and even if I try to like GW2.... I cannot. :(
It would have been different if it was called "Utopia" not GW2 because of the old GW it has only the graphics and the names/places but it's a complete "New Game". And please do not tell me is a different MMO .... what? Where is the difference? They only changed the way we used to do quests and missions but everything is still there. :)

I'm still playing it I but not as often as I would if I really liked it.

Why I complain? Because I want to like it as I did with the awesome old GW!

#11 st_clouds

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:26 AM

View PostI, on 03 April 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

Because most of the original members of this forum were HARDCORE GW1 fans(myself included). A lot of us take GW2 as an insult, to we who stayed loyal, throughout the GW1 years. We gained nothing from GW2.

ArenaNet took the game we thought a masterpiece (GW1), used the world we loved and made a sequel that is...hardly.. Guild Wars.

In other words, a lot of us feel as if ArenaNet humiliated and offended us GW1 players by taking what we loved and half-assing every aspect of the sequel. GW2 is 1/10th of what it should be. The story, the characters, the lore, the gameplay, the music that we loved in GW1... we hoped and dreamed the masterpiece of those aspects would be carried onto GW2. And to say the least, our dreams were shattered.

And then there are the players that simply, are disappointed in GW2, because really, it doesn't offer much, it could be much more than it could be, it's a huge grind fest, the manifesto lies, it lacks too much content to be considered "massive."

Look at what you typed. You made it sound as if ANET destroyed your world, and now there's nothing to live for anymore.

It's a $60 game. If you got 2-3mos of entertainment outta it, great! That's more fun than you could get almost anywhere else. If you don't like it, too bad. It's only $60, get something else you like! I've bought plenty of titles that didn't live up to anything I wanted it to be. Sometimes I find that out within the first 7 days, in which case I took it back to GameStop and ask for exchange. You can't do that with GW2, which's a shame, but not a deal breaker.

I don't see why some poster think that ANET decided to cater to a different demographic is somehow an insult to your manhood and honor. They have their vision of what the game is supposed to be, and it's not yours - unfortunately. Move on. Tell them that they're missing out on your support and $$$, but otherwise move on. There is no way a game designed to cater to millions of ppl could make every1 happy - short of everyone writting their own game. Even there there's the problem that not everyone know how to do so.

I also find it hilarious that a bunch of ppl who don't know how to code "Hello, world!" or make a living out of their art, thought they could tell ANET how stupid they are, and how they could do something so much better in a fraction of the time. Well may be... but then may be cows will fly.

#12 ShezuTsukai

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:39 AM

I tell my students before they complain about anything. "Any idiot can name problems. It takes real intelligence to come up with a solution."

I wish less people would complain and more would offer constructive solutions or at least ideas that can be developed by the community and possibly Anet may implement in some manner in the future.

Yes it's sunny in my world, people know me and like me there, and I don't plan on leaving ;-)

#13 MazingerZ

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:47 AM

View PostShezuTsukai, on 04 April 2013 - 12:39 AM, said:

I tell my students before they complain about anything. "Any idiot can name problems. It takes real intelligence to come up with a solution."

I wish less people would complain and more would offer constructive solutions or at least ideas that can be developed by the community and possibly Anet may implement in some manner in the future.

Yes it's sunny in my world, people know me and like me there, and I don't plan on leaving ;-)

Coming up with solutions only matter when there's a will to implement them.  People have offered solutions, there has been nothing but words and little action.

Otherwise you are pissing in the wind.

Edited by MazingerZ, 04 April 2013 - 12:48 AM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#14 Millimidget

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:05 AM

View Postst_clouds, on 04 April 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

Maybe it's time for everyone to move along. So what's wrong with that?
That's an insufficient approach for designing an MMO.

Sadly, it's becoming all too prevalent, with major studios chasing those release sales, and developing generic games that promise everything but largely fail to deliver on anything.

I didn't play Darkfall because it was an obviously niche game with niche appeal, but I have to give its developers credit for being clear with their approach and their target audience.

View Postxarallei, on 04 April 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:

One person in the thread actually said that he hated guild bounties, that they were a waste and that he "wanted to spit in the face of the devs" because of it. I saw that post, but it was quickly deleted and it SHOULD be.
I've been moderated for much less than that. And it's not like they even remove the offensive comments; they outright delete the entire post. They also selectively apply the rules, neglecting to moderate raving lunatics who support the game (ie using your example, I've seen the equivalent of "I want to spit in the face of every person who hates this game" go unchecked).

Edited by Millimidget, 04 April 2013 - 01:13 AM.


#15 Draino

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:12 AM

+ Anet's done a nice job with this game, IMO.
- There's a lot more to do; ran into 4 non-functioning dynamic events today alone, for instance.
+ GW1 showed many of us that ANet can keep refining and improving their products to a truly excellent gaming experience.
- Having been a software designer for decades, I really know that outside input can go unheard when it might be valuable, because many users won't say what could be improved.
+ Lots of people here try to provide such input; lots do it in positive ways.

Sure: there are some who just become petulant and throw stones (this happens all over in life); there are also many who love the game uncritically as it is; and there are some here who hope they can provide useful feedback. Why so much hate for the latter?

#16 Arewn

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:15 AM

While I completely support the fact that GW1 players who liked GW1 and want more of GW1 are disappointed by GW2 because it's a different game, and are justified in their disappointment, I feel I should add that these people also need to get over it.

It may share a name, but that does not mean it has to be the same. Games within a franchise can vary wildly, and while you are justified in being disappointed that your preferred format is not being continued, you are not justified in claims of being "wronged" or "betrayed" or "insulted". GW1 had it's time, but it's over now, it's been 6 years since the last GW1 game and GW2 was announced, and it's been 7 months since GW2 launched. At this point you know that they are two different games, and even if you stay disappointed by this for the rest of your life (I'm not saying that's bad), you should none the less be able to understand and accept it.
If not, I can only suggest you grow up, because your cries are no more then those of a small child who can't let go, demeaning as that may sound.

Once again, I hope that this is NOT interpreted as a claim that jaded GW1 player's criticism is not valid, or that all they do is complain, etc. But that, simply put, they need to stop dragging their anger into their reasoning.

"I remember they did X in gw1 and it was fun, they should try that in GW2 because it would fit and what they have now isn't working/is boring/sucks" is one thing, but "gw2 sucks, they did X in GW1 and it's so much better because of that no matter what you say and GW2 is a failure that completely disappoints me/Anet is full of idiots" is another matter entirely.
Sad thing being that posts like that actually happen semi-regularly....

#17 st_clouds

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:17 AM

View PostMillimidget, on 04 April 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

That's an insufficient approach for designing an MMO.

Sadly, it's becoming all too prevalent, with major studios chasing those release sales, and developing generic games that promise everything but largely fail to deliver on anything.

I didn't play Darkfall because it was an obviously niche game with niche appeal, but I have to give its developers credit for being clear with their approach and their target audience.

Nawh, that's your opinion, and unless you've ever developed and MMO yourself - it's frankly irrelevant.

Like I said, only time will tell. I think GW2 will do fine. All early indicators seems to point that it will. Even if it's not, I got my money worth out of it.

Plus you think about it, which generates more profits - the camrys of this world or the lambor? This game is a camry but that's the whole game business. The truth is, the more hard core the gamer is, the cheaper they are. Hence ANET can't simply charge 10x the price for the ultimate PvP (or 1337 Grind) experience like VW can with their lambors.

So here's the dilemma, do they want to cater to the cheap and demanding crowd, or the wealthier, busy, casual players? I know what I would pick.

Edited by st_clouds, 04 April 2013 - 01:20 AM.


#18 Grimful

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:24 AM

I don't still play it, but I can come on here every once and awhile and bash it anyway.

I'm mostly JK, but I do have a fair amount of bitterness saved of for this game. I was beyond hyped when this game was announced and I stayed in that level of hype-ness for a long time until I got into closed beta. I tried to lie to myself as to why I didn't want to play it much by saying things like "I just want to keep it new so I don't exhaust everything in the beta" but in all honesty, I just didn't like the game and a lot of reasons that I didn't like it are because I felt like I was led to believe things that weren't true (Like how this game is going to get rid of the grind, how it'll make me feel like I'm part of a living world, etc.)

So I'm negative about this game because I had my hopes dashed and I come onto this forum every once in awhile because this is the forum I went on before it was relieased and I'm not about to make another account just to complain about things.

Since GW2 doesn't have a subscription, people are able to pop back on whenever they want, try out the new patch, become upset that it's still dull to them (or whatever their issue is) and then they can jump on here to complain about it. I think the reason this forum gets hit so much is because this was a very popular pre-launch site and most people aren't going to search out new sites just to complain.

#19 Millimidget

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:29 AM

View Postst_clouds, on 04 April 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

Nawh, that's your opinion, and unless you've ever developed and MMO yourself - it's frankly irrelevant.
Classic.

You remind me of the guy who was trying to convince me that GW2 is great because Anet is the first developer to actually care about their art direction, whatever that's supposed to mean, as if it was even true in the first place (I can only assume that idiot was friends/family with someone in Anet's art department).

Being totally uncritical of the game suggests a disconnect from reality, on the same order as being totally critical of the game while still investing significant amounts of time into it.

Edited by Millimidget, 04 April 2013 - 01:32 AM.


#20 st_clouds

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:34 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 04 April 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

Ya, clearly they only close overly abusive threads like this one:

https://forum-en.gui...-trying-out-GW1

I could find more, this one just happened to have got closed in the last couple minutes so it seemed appropriate.

Huh, it's out of topic and out of place. They're being polite about it. Don't see what's the hate.

View PostMillimidget, on 04 April 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

Classic.

You remind me of the guy who was trying to convince me that GW2 is great because Anet is the first developer to actually care about their art direction, whatever that's supposed to mean, as if it was even true in the first place.

Being totally uncritical of the game suggests a disconnect from reality, on the same order as being totally critical of the game while still investing significant amounts of time into it.

Gw2 is great for me. Couldn't care less what it does or doesn't to you. Shrug.

#21 Millimidget

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:35 AM

View Postst_clouds, on 04 April 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

Couldn't care less what it does or doesn't to you.
You seem to care. At the very least, you keep trying to dismiss me as "irrelevant" (your words).

#22 st_clouds

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:42 AM

View PostMillimidget, on 04 April 2013 - 01:35 AM, said:

You seem to care. At the very least, you keep trying to dismiss me as "irrelevant" (your words).

Not at all. I got my money's worth. If it's time to move on, right now, I can. It isn't the only thing I got going in my life.

So what do I care if the game isn't working for you? Or if ANET decided to pull the plug tomorrow. No really, give me a reason why?

I just think think that far too many people here are rude, and unreasonably demanding with nothing to show for it. That I find annoying, but the feeling is not exclusive to GW2. I just find rude and demanding people in general fairly annoying, where ever they might be, and worst if they've never done something respectable themselves to deserve a pass at being obnoxious.

Edited by st_clouds, 04 April 2013 - 01:44 AM.


#23 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:48 AM

There's obviously a lot of back-story here that's easy to miss.  Its easy to over-simplify and say, "eh, GW1 fans are just jaded and hateful because this isn't exactly like GW1."  However, that misses the mark, and to see how you have to go back to the founding of Anet and their original design philosophy.  The company was originally founded by three guys who had previously worked for Blizzard and helped design WoW.  They saw a lot of promise in the game, but thought there was a lot of trash in there too... Seemingly, they had fundamental disagreements with a time > skill philosophy, vertical progression, subscriptions fees, gear grind and treadmill as well as cartoonishly lacking graphics.  They set out to create something better, and after some trial and error and a good amount of ironing, they succeeded massively.  Guild Wars 1 was a revolution in so many ways its impact is still unclear... but due to the fact that WoW hit the scene first, it never got the attention it deserved, despite being extremely highly reviewed, having a fanatical fan-base and even winning game of the year status for the original.  

As time went on, 2 of the three founders of anet moved on, (or were forced out ... its not 100% clear) and NCSoft slowly exerted more control.  After all, they continues to pay for the operating costs of a game that accounted for a tiny amount of their sales while eventually funding a fairly large scale sequel as well.  When publishers get too involved, and the original design philosophy loses two thirds of its original vision, it CAN occur the other considerations, like profit and universal appeal, take center stage while quality and uniqueness get pushed back.  This, I believe, is the case of what happened to GW2.  Its not a new story, really... we see it all over American society (think about television programs for example... Firefly gets tossed out after 17 episodes, and how many seasons has "Dancing with the stars" been on?).

Where GW2 could have fixed the problems with GW1 and kept to the same core philosophy, we increasingly see evidence that the sole remaining founder now disgarees with that philosophy more and more.  We see the introduction of all the things that were originally considered to be bad design: time > skill, gear treadmills, meaningless grind; we see story take a back seat and systems which both built and required skill reduced to mostly random button mashing.  

When Lucas announced there would be a new Star Wars trilogy, (Episodes 1-3) people were incredibly excited.  But when it became clear sometime later that those movies were compromised financially motivated rubbish (more or less) how did that affect your feelings?  While Episode one really isn't completely horrible, doesn't anyone remember the Jar Jar Binks controversies?  What you see here is people who feel let down and even betrayed by designers who couldn't follow the most basic idea: if it anit broke, don't "fix" it.  GW1 was just a tiny little bit broke, (in ways that were largely fixable if given the time/resources) so they threw it out completely, build a fairly generic MMO with newish exciting combat and slapped the lore of GW1 on it to insures good starting sales.  Once they had sold the game to as many GW1 fans/vets as seemed likely, they slowly started to visibly go against the GW1 design philosophies.  You can't blame people feeling negative for what they feel is a classic bait-and-switch.

#24 st_clouds

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:00 AM

View PostCaptain Bulldozer, on 04 April 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:

There's obviously a lot of back-story here that's easy to miss.  Its easy to over-simplify and say, "eh, GW1 fans are just jaded and hateful because this isn't exactly like GW1."  However, that misses the mark, and to see how you have to go back to the founding of Anet and their original design philosophy.  The company was originally founded by three guys who had previously worked for Blizzard and helped design WoW.  They saw a lot of promise in the game, but thought there was a lot of trash in there too... Seemingly, they had fundamental disagreements with a time > skill philosophy, vertical progression, subscriptions fees, gear grind and treadmill as well as cartoonishly lacking graphics.  They set out to create something better, and after some trial and error and a good amount of ironing, they succeeded massively.  Guild Wars 1 was a revolution in so many ways its impact is still unclear... but due to the fact that WoW hit the scene first, it never got the attention it deserved, despite being extremely highly reviewed, having a fanatical fan-base and even winning game of the year status for the original.  

As time went on, 2 of the three founders of anet moved on, (or were forced out ... its not 100% clear) and NCSoft slowly exerted more control.  After all, they continues to pay for the operating costs of a game that accounted for a tiny amount of their sales while eventually funding a fairly large scale sequel as well.  When publishers get too involved, and the original design philosophy loses two thirds of its original vision, it CAN occur the other considerations, like profit and universal appeal, take center stage while quality and uniqueness get pushed back.  This, I believe, is the case of what happened to GW2.  Its not a new story, really... we see it all over American society (think about television programs for example... Firefly gets tossed out after 17 episodes, and how many seasons has "Dancing with the stars" been on?).

Where GW2 could have fixed the problems with GW1 and kept to the same core philosophy, we increasingly see evidence that the sole remaining founder now disgarees with that philosophy more and more.  We see the introduction of all the things that were originally considered to be bad design: time > skill, gear treadmills, meaningless grind; we see story take a back seat and systems which both built and required skill reduced to mostly random button mashing.  

When Lucas announced there would be a new Star Wars trilogy, (Episodes 1-3) people were incredibly excited.  But when it became clear sometime later that those movies were compromised financially motivated rubbish (more or less) how did that affect your feelings?  While Episode one really isn't completely horrible, doesn't anyone remember the Jar Jar Binks controversies?  What you see here is people who feel let down and even betrayed by designers who couldn't follow the most basic idea: if it anit broke, don't "fix" it.  GW1 was just a tiny little bit broke, (in ways that were largely fixable if given the time/resources) so they threw it out completely, build a fairly generic MMO with newish exciting combat and slapped the lore of GW1 on it to insures good starting sales.  Once they had sold the game to as many GW1 fans/vets as seemed likely, they slowly started to visibly go against the GW1 design philosophies.  You can't blame people feeling negative for what they feel is a classic bait-and-switch.

Dunno, I'm a GW1 player. There're certain things I don't like about the current iteration, but it hits more sweet spots than not.

I don't like the high level cap, don't like the intro of ascended gear.

At the same time I don't expect to like the whole thing about any game.  On the other hand they got many things right. More fluid combat, removal of dumb builds, the lack of roles, no subs etc.

Even the things that I don't like are somewhat tampered. Ascended gears aren't overly more powerful. It still sucks, but within parameters. Levels aren't increasingly more grindy and there're plenty of quests/crafting to normally level. Etc.

I am willing to compromise. What I find is annoying are the so called hard-core players who make demands, won't compromise their differing views with other players in the game and to top it off are usually cheap kittens. Yeah.

Edited by st_clouds, 04 April 2013 - 02:02 AM.


#25 Soki

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:08 AM

If you can read, and have a functioning analytical mind, you should be able to read what those "nasty haters xD" are saying and extrapolate the truth from the rhetoric of what they're complaining about.

Overall, people who "hate" the game are just disappointed by the lack of polish in so many facets the game launched with - buggy or just plain incomplete or likely-not-playtested dungeons and 30+ areas, bighuge dragon bosses not being worth killing(until recently).

I think the biggest issue with the game, on a systemic level, is the focus on most other systems in removing the ability to be fully self-sufficient as a player; thus pushing people to the TP for all their needs - which serves ANet by keeping most players scrounging for coin, which creates heavy incentive for players to spend $$ on gems to convert.
It's been proven that enemies and zone-completes and chests are far more likely to drop equipment that is not for your armor class, and weapons that your profession cannot use, than something you can actually use.
The core gameplay of GW2 is excellent. Traits for classes like Elementalist or Rangers(and Engis now) could really take some more polish - but overall, the gameplay is a solid 7/10. The issues lie inherently with the systems built around the gameplay, and how they make the player feel slighted and encroached upon by the apparent revenue model of the game.
It's the implied pressure - not pressure itself.



I have high hopes for GW2 in the coming year. It's a shame that it'll take at least that for the systemic issues to be resolved - but if GW2 had the polish and fluidity that WoW launched with, it would be my go-to game now.

#26 st_clouds

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:11 AM

View PostSoki, on 04 April 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

If you can read, and have a functioning analytical mind, you should be able to read what those "nasty haters xD" are saying and extrapolate the truth from the rhetoric of what they're complaining about.

Overall, people who "hate" the game are just disappointed by the lack of polish in so many facets the game launched with - buggy or just plain incomplete or likely-not-playtested dungeons and 30+ areas, bighuge dragon bosses not being worth killing(until recently).

I think the biggest issue with the game, on a systemic level, is the focus on most other systems in removing the ability to be fully self-sufficient as a player; thus pushing people to the TP for all their needs - which serves ANet by keeping most players scrounging for coin, which creates heavy incentive for players to spend $$ on gems to convert.
It's been proven that enemies and zone-completes and chests are far more likely to drop equipment that is not for your armor class, and weapons that your profession cannot use, than something you can actually use.
The core gameplay of GW2 is excellent. Traits for classes like Elementalist or Rangers(and Engis now) could really take some more polish - but overall, the gameplay is a solid 7/10. The issues lie inherently with the systems built around the gameplay, and how they make the player feel slighted and encroached upon by the apparent revenue model of the game.
It's the implied pressure - not pressure itself.
SNIP


I have high hopes for GW2 in the coming year. It's a shame that it'll take at least that for the systemic issues to be resolved - but if GW2 had the polish and fluidity that WoW launched with, it would be my go-to game now.

Sorry, but so what if that's their biz model? I'm really not against paying for something that I like. You like something, work for it and pay for it, the same with anything else. Don't like that? Try North Korea.

Again this is what's most annoying about the entitlement attitude. You think something is so easily done? Why don't you do it? If you don't, why don't you pay someone to do it and don't complain about paying. And oh unless you think you paid for the entire game development cost, don't bitch if the devs can't jump to your every beck and whims. FYI your $60 would not even cover the cost of keeping 1 dev for 1 hour. Guess who funded the rest of the game? That's right - the other players - who may or may not be after the same things you're looking for.

Edited by st_clouds, 04 April 2013 - 02:21 AM.


#27 Soki

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:21 AM

View Postst_clouds, on 04 April 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

Sorry, but so what if that's their biz model? I'm really not against paying for something that I like. You like something, work for it and pay for it, the same with anything else. Don't like that? Try North Korea.
I'm sorry, what?
You must have skimmed. Let me re-iterate:

The business model for GW2 is that people spend $$ on gems to get exclusive things.
A lot of the time though, due to how the TP, item droprates, and the global economy is set up, it limits an individual player's ability to generate a decent amount of gold for themselves - an amount where getting a Legendary in 4-5 months of normal play is feasible.

The TP is global for this very reason. Item droprates for things like Lodestones are low for this reason, too.
It's not "tinfoil hat syndrome". GW2's systems all point to removing a player's self-sufficiency, and shifting their reliance for most things they need to "do stuff" the game has to offer to the TP - whose global nature pushes those who got gold early buy investing all their starting gold into gems then converting back when they skyrocketed to build their success on flipping on the failure of players who didn't get into the system early.


If you respond, do so after reading the above.
Don't kneejerk and say something like "you're just a nasty h8er who wants GW2 to fail".
I don't. I want it to be a better game than the unpolished mess with potential it launched as. That's the only reason I still care to post about it. ^^

View Postst_clouds, on 04 April 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

Again this is what's most annoying about the entitlement attitude. You think something is so easily done? Why don't you do it? If you don't, why don't you pay someone to do it and don't complain about paying. And oh unless you think you paid for the entire game development cost, don't bitch if the devs can't jump to your every beck and whims. FYI your $60 would not even cover the cost of keeping 1 dev for 1 hour. Guess who funded the rest of the game? That's right - the other players - who may or may not be after the same things you're looking for.
You're arguing against an attitude I don't have.
You're reading one thing, and your brain is auto-translating it to something that was not written.

Aside from that fact, generally when somebody's posting about "gamer entitlement" in the context that you're posting about it, they're so thoroughly mind*ed that they think a less-than-exemplary product filled with game-breaking bugs and utter lack of polish should get straight 10/10s across the board.

Complaining about the overall lack of polish in areas that weren't available in the BWE's, and about how the game takes the "withhold and pressure" approach to B2P revenue-generation, is wholly within my rights to do as somebody who bought the game - and if you think that isn't true, I'll refer you to your previous (shockingly irrelevent, in the way you used it) comment concerning North Korea.

Edited by Soki, 04 April 2013 - 02:29 AM.


#28 st_clouds

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:34 AM

View PostSoki, on 04 April 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

I'm sorry, what?
You must have skimmed. Let me re-iterate:

The business model for GW2 is that people spend $$ on gems to get exclusive things.
A lot of the time though, due to how the TP, item droprates, and the global economy is set up, it limits an individual player's ability to generate a decent amount of gold for themselves - an amount where getting a Legendary in 4-5 months of normal play is feasible.

The TP is global for this very reason. Item droprates for things like Lodestones are low for this reason, too.
It's not "tinfoil hat syndrome". GW2's systems all point to removing a player's self-sufficiency, and shifting their reliance for most things they need to "do stuff" the game has to offer to the TP - whose global nature pushes those who got gold early buy investing all their starting gold into gems then converting back when they skyrocketed to build their success on flipping on the failure of players who didn't get into the system early.


If you respond, do so after reading the above.
Don't kneejerk and say something like "you're just a nasty h8er who wants GW2 to fail".
I don't. I want it to be a better game than the unpolished mess with potential it launched as. That's the only reason I still care to post about it. ^^


You're arguing against an attitude I don't have.
You're reading one thing, and your brain is auto-translating it to something that was not written.

Aside from that fact, generally when somebody's posting about "gamer entitlement" in the context that you're posting about it, they're so thoroughly mind*ed that they think a less-than-exemplary product filled with game-breaking bugs and utter lack of polish should get straight 10/10s across the board.

Complaining about the overall lack of polish in areas that weren't available in the BWE's, and about how the game takes the "withhold and pressure" approach to B2P revenue-generation, is wholly within my rights to do as somebody who bought the game - and if you think that isn't true, I'll refer you to your previous (shockingly irrelevent, in the way you used it) comment concerning North Korea.

ANET is a biz, they gotta generate revenue to pay their ppl and keep the lights on among other thing. So what's wrong with B2P again? There're either B2P and P2P and P2W - take your poison. ANET went the route of least evil.

Like I said our initial investment of $60 doesn't really get us far when it comes to an MMO. What do you propose that they do to earn your money? Charge sub?

Edited by st_clouds, 04 April 2013 - 02:37 AM.


#29 Soki

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:47 AM

View Postst_clouds, on 04 April 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

ANET is a biz, they gotta generate revenue to pay their ppl and keep the lights on among other thing. So what's wrong with B2P again? There're either B2P and P2P and P2W - take your poison. ANET went the route of least evil.

Like I said our initial investment of $60 doesn't really get us far when it comes to an MMO. What do you propose that they do to earn your money? Charge sub?
Yeahh, I'm going to write you off as "lost cause".
Feel free to reread what I previously wrote abotu the manner in which they're conducting the model.

Hint: I take issue with how the model is conducted; not the model itself.

Edited by Soki, 04 April 2013 - 02:48 AM.


#30 Arewn

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:28 AM

View Postst_clouds, on 04 April 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

Again this is what's most annoying about the entitlement attitude. You think something is so easily done? Why don't you do it? If you don't, why don't you pay someone to do it and don't complain about paying. And oh unless you think you paid for the entire game development cost, don't bitch if the devs can't jump to your every beck and whims. FYI your $60 would not even cover the cost of keeping 1 dev for 1 hour. Guess who funded the rest of the game? That's right - the other players - who may or may not be after the same things you're looking for.
I'm sorry but this is an incredibly weak argument. Developers are trained professionals, working on multimillion dollar games, you cannot just say "why don't try doing it?!". I understand the issue with entitlement, but you're not making a good point here.

View PostSoki, on 04 April 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

If you can read, and have a functioning analytical mind, you should be able to read what those "nasty haters xD" are saying and extrapolate the truth from the rhetoric of what they're complaining about.

Overall, people who "hate" the game are just disappointed by the lack of polish in so many facets the game launched with - buggy or just plain incomplete or likely-not-playtested dungeons and 30+ areas, bighuge dragon bosses not being worth killing(until recently).

I think the biggest issue with the game, on a systemic level, is the focus on most other systems in removing the ability to be fully self-sufficient as a player; thus pushing people to the TP for all their needs - which serves ANet by keeping most players scrounging for coin, which creates heavy incentive for players to spend $$ on gems to convert.
It's been proven that enemies and zone-completes and chests are far more likely to drop equipment that is not for your armor class, and weapons that your profession cannot use, than something you can actually use.
The core gameplay of GW2 is excellent. Traits for classes like Elementalist or Rangers(and Engis now) could really take some more polish - but overall, the gameplay is a solid 7/10. The issues lie inherently with the systems built around the gameplay, and how they make the player feel slighted and encroached upon by the apparent revenue model of the game.
It's the implied pressure - not pressure itself.

I have high hopes for GW2 in the coming year. It's a shame that it'll take at least that for the systemic issues to be resolved - but if GW2 had the polish and fluidity that WoW launched with, it would be my go-to game now.
I find it difficult to fault them for the revenue model's in game implications considering the problems caused by other MMORPG's revenue models, WoW being a prime example. Especially considering how unintrusive gems have been thus far. You can easily acquire in game necessities without even knowing the gem shop exists. That's not to say improvement is not desired, but compared to what I dealt with before, this is great.

On the note of WoW, I played for a few years but wasn't around for launch. Even with that being the case, I find any claims that it launch was polished and fluid to be very surprising, as during my time playing I have only heard of it as being an atrocious mess. Crashes and latency and bugs galore.
In fact I just went and looked it up and found out it was in a nearly unplayable state due to server issues at launch.
Even beyond the initial launch's game breaking problems, I'm seeing problems on the side of game design and completeness as I google around. Tacked on PvP, alliance-horde bias in quest availability (apparently horde was added very late in development), terrible class balance with unusable specs, inaccessibility of dungeons and raids due to poor gear availability and itemization, prohibitive pricing on certain comodities (mostly about mounts... this one's really subjective), huge amounts of grind for items (and later rep when it was introduced), difficulty in grouping for dungeons/raids sometimes taking over an hour.
This being the case, I'm left wondering what you're referring to when you say "polish and fluidity WoW launched with", as from what I gather that is simply not the case.

Edited by Arewn, 04 April 2013 - 03:30 AM.





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