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Additional Gear Tiers: Economic Inevitability

tiers gear economy economic exotic legendary weapons armor expansion pack

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#1 Krazzar

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:34 AM

Looking at market prices from launch until now of staple items we see a clear trend of decreasing price,  namely exotic armors and weapons.  This is partly because as players gain exotic gear and sell it on the market most players try to undersell each other so they will sell quickly. Supply generated greatly exceeds supply destroyed and so the price continues to decrease. Prices will continue to fall until we reach a floor, which will be the market's threshold, the limit of usefulness for players. Without a catalyst that floor will take a very long time to reach, but prices would continue to drop.

Because prices will continue to fall the only option to generate wealth, the main motivation for most players in most games, will be to add to the top, which means additional tiers of gear.  Legendaries are a large gold sink and long-term goal, but they have no urgency factor, they aren't necessary enough to keep players playing. Ascended gear, while not being initially accepted positively, did provide that motivation to most players.

Anet has shown this tendency with ascended gear already, higher tiers beyond this with the first expansion pack are inevitable . This isn't necessarily going to be grind, as long as the new tiers are ultimately backed by content (items tied to levels which are in turn tied to content) it won't be a problem for most (some will have an issue with "being forced to play the game any way they want"). We're about 5 months away from the 1-year mark and the first expansion pack, which has been hinted at by Frost and Flame, may be slated for some time around that 1-year mark. We know expansion packs will not be stand-alone, leaving plenty of room for vertical progression (and horizontal progression), including new gear tiers.  Expansion packs will most likely add additional levels, those levels will most likely have additional tiers of gear to go along with them. Generally an expansion pack will most likely have similar progression to the release client, including levels and gear progression.

How do you think progression and weapon tiers will be implemented in an expansion pack? How will the ascended tier be filled in with weapons and gear in the future? What are the economic implications of new tiers of gear? What kinds of motivations will be used in expansion packs? Throw in your educated guess with rationale.

#2 Eon Lilu

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:43 AM

Can't remember where but I read somewhere they said that no more gear tiers were coming except for legendary after ascended and that would not even happen in 2013. You might be correct though since I don't believe anything they say anymore. :P

Edited by Eon Lilu, 11 April 2013 - 04:44 AM.


#3 Krazzar

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:53 AM

View PostEon Lilu, on 11 April 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

Can't remember where but I read somewhere they said that no more gear tiers were coming except for legendary after ascended and that would not even happen in 2013. You might be correct though since I don't believe anything they say anymore. :P

Here's the official word on Ascended Gear:
Spoiler

They also commented on progression and said they're happy with gradual stat progression. Again, that usually means progression tied to content.
Spoiler

They did say ascended gear will be fleshed out but not by the end of the year, but later cut out any time table and simply state "over time" and "long period of time".

Spoiler



Some of what they say is pretty murky and can be interpreted to be contradictory. I don't know if they're considering "the game" as the core game either, that would make these comments only apply to the core game and not expansion packs, which is a possibility. That "existing Rarity's will evolve over time" phrase is also a somewhat odd comment. That could easily mean in an expansion pack they keep the rarity titles and change the stats with a tier or another mechanism.

When considering the economy of the game and player motivation what else could they do beyond expanding on the kinds of progression we already have in GW2? How could they reinvigorate an economy with no new products that add new value? How do they get players to participate in new content? From the limited history of GW2 we already know rewards seem to be the only thing that works. Expanding on stats may also be horizontal in nature and not increase the current stats, but still be vertical progression, which Anet famously used in GW1, however, that type of progression is even worse and becomes convoluted.

Edited by Krazzar, 11 April 2013 - 05:15 AM.


#4 StaplerPie

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:28 AM

They won't add a gear tier above ascended, but they will add increasingly better infusions.  Notice that the best infusions you can get now are blue.  I'm betting they'll add green infusions, then orange, then pink, where the higher the tier, the more ridiculously expensive it'll be.

#5 ThiaTheMuse

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:03 AM

I have to say, this is one area of the game I loathe and I really wish they would have learned from GW1...

#6 Millimidget

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:04 AM

View PostEon Lilu, on 11 April 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

Can't remember where but I read somewhere they said that no more gear tiers were coming except for legendary after ascended and that would not even happen in 2013. You might be correct though since I don't believe anything they say anymore.
They still have some ascended pieces to release, then they can go through infusions as per the post above me mentions, and they'll top it all off with a level cap increase.

No need for any additional tiers of quality to keep this treadmill going.

#7 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:47 AM

The potential gear expansion is what stopped my vertical gear progression at rares: if A.Net is planning on forcing us to switch out all our gear, then going beyond rares simply isn't worth it.

#8 Kerrath

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:23 AM

View PostRitualist, on 11 April 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

The potential gear expansion is what stopped my vertical gear progression at rares: if A.Net is planning on forcing us to switch out all our gear, then going beyond rares simply isn't worth it.
why? you get increased stat value. that makes you stronger.

the level of progression in this game is, at best, minimal as well. the only content with multiple tiers of difficulty is FotM. Nothing else ACTUALLY requires any particular gear level given that no fights have any hard or soft enrages. note:enrage=wow term, after a certain period of time, a boss would kill your raid. a hard enrage means that, say, after 10 minutes, the boss deals 900% more damage and thus it is literally impossible to keep fighting because you cannot survive that much damage. a soft enrage means that while the boss doesn't specifically have a hard enrage, the mechanics of the fight will make the fight impossible to continue after a certain point. as an example, a boss might periodically light the floor under the players on fire. after a while, the players would run out of floor on which to stand when fighting the boss.

Given that the broad majority of dungeons, story or explorable, can be completed regardless of your gear level or even to some degree your group comp due to their relative easiness, the raw minimum of progression so far shouldn't really change the game for anyone.

BUT EVEN THEN having better gear definitively makes the game easier. So I don't see why someone wouldn't want to take advantage of that.

Edited by Kerrath, 11 April 2013 - 08:25 AM.


#9 Azure Skye

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:29 AM

It will but not yet till another expanision and a couple of years down the road. Nothing is set in stone, yet.

#10 FoxBat

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:35 AM

View PostKrazzar, on 11 April 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

Looking at market prices from launch until now of staple items we see a clear trend of decreasing price,  namely exotic armors and weapons.

They were going up along with ecto at some point. It mostly comes down to ecto availability, as there are enough high-end ecto sinks and likely more coming in the future. But when you give every half-drooling player 8 ectos a day on a silver plate, shit happens.

Edited by FoxBat, 11 April 2013 - 08:37 AM.


#11 Featherman

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 09:12 AM

In hindsight, this is the obvious conclusion to the system they chose to go with it. Stats scale vertically with sidegrades that are easy to acquire and swap out. The latter is especially when you consider how trade is centered around the trading post. The introduction of ascended gear follows the same trend in that you get to choose your stats. Some may go through the hassle of getting several sets, but aside from the hardest of the hardcore who's going to honestly going to continue farming after they've maximized their desired stats? Aside from maybe one or two professions, gameplay sure isn't different enough with one set or another to justify farming sets, and even if it was slightly different there's only one or two optimal builds per profession. It's all vertical with the illusion of being horizontal, therefore it's likely that players will simply make due with what they can get for minimal effort and then wait for the next set of gear with ever-so-slightly slightly higher stats.

It's really a problem that stems from poor design of gear customization/sidegrades, exclusivity of drops, and profession customization. We've seen ANet try to remedy the issue with with account binding ascended gear, but that only attempts to fix one part of the issue and haphazardly at that. Unless these fundamental issues are addressed in one way or another, GW2 will likely stagnate into a treadmill using the "it's only slightly stronger" excuse to justify it.

View PostKrazzar, on 11 April 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

When considering the economy of the game and player motivation what else could they do beyond expanding on the kinds of progression we already have in GW2? How could they reinvigorate an economy with no new products that add new value? How do they get players to participate in new content? From the limited history of GW2 we already know rewards seem to be the only thing that works. Expanding on stats may also be horizontal in nature and not increase the current stats, but still be vertical progression, which Anet famously used in GW1, however, that type of progression is even worse and becomes convoluted.

IMO, revamp and remove progression from the economy. Sidegrades should be rare, randomly acquired, account bound and they should make players look at the game differently. The rare and random factor makes it so that the player won't be expecting it. By virtue of being a sidegrade, the progression won't be required and can even be ignored. This eases the randomness for casuals. Hardcores can simply farm for sidegrades. If these sidegrades change the way players play sufficiently enough, it'll add replay value to the game. This is important if players are grinding or farming as it gives them tools to experiment with and a different flavor to their gameplay. Finally, accountbinding prevents players from trivializing them and buying them with gems/real life money.

This type of progression is basically what was used in GW1 (aside from the random factor) and it made the game infinitely more interesting despite the grind. Aside from screwing up WvW balance (which is already screwed beyond belief), I don't see why ANet shouldn't introduce this type of progression system.

As for the economy, cosmetics are a major driving force in the economy as we've seen in GW1 and GW2t. I don't see why ANet can't hire a few artist part time to introduce new and exclusive weapon sets to serve as material sinks.

Edited by Featherman, 11 April 2013 - 09:34 AM.


#12 Dasryn

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:50 AM

i have full exotics and im running dungeons and doing guild bounties and trying to get 100% world completion then there is WvW that i havent even stepped into so there is plenty of stuff to do in the game.

i see threads about how GW2 is so boring. . . i mean, i just named off a lot of stuff this game has to offer and i havent even touched it yet.

that being said, it brings me to the topic of this thread.  i agree with the OP - but i dread the day.

i already see Ascended gear and a lot of people have a couple pieces and they are a huge increase in stats.  ie - i have full berserker gear, like maxed out rubies berserker of the berserker of the berserker, but my crit dmg is only at 97%.  a guildie runs the same build except he has a few pieces of ascended gear and his crit dmg is at 105%.  thats almost 10% - which is no joke in the min/maxing world.

more levels, more gear tiers, its inevitable, but i hate that because i feel like there is so much content that i havent touched that there doesnt need to be another tier of gear. idk.

GW2 has a long way to go, we downed one of six elder dragons, that makes at least 5 xpaks plus whatever the Largos are running from so thats 6 xpaks plus the return of the muursat so thats 7 xpaks all in GW2 and thats not counting shit they pull from their ass.

more gear tiers are coming - and its going to suck.

#13 MazingerZ

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:20 PM

View PostDasryn, on 11 April 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

more gear tiers are coming - and its going to suck.

The only hilarious bit is the fact that many people told other people here that this wasn't it.  That it was pretty much the djinn that had to be stuffed back into the box in November before everyone got invested and got their gear.  Now people have invested a ton of time, resources and energy into Ascended and once that hits a wall, ArenaNet is either going to release another tier of gear (a tried and true method, much like releasing the same damn IP every year when you need PROFITS) or pull something original (actually improving the aspects of their game that suck) and completely untested to maintain player interest.

But a lot of people were on board with it.  "What is ArenaNet supposed to do?" etc, etc.

One thing is for certain.  The instant they start doing that sfuff with more tiers, the more its going to become a WoW clone with shittier encounters.  At that point, you should just play WoW.  Trinity be damned, at least your talents work most of the time, you have a decent in-game LFG tool, you can get the items with less stress and time involved.

I played this game because I didn't want the pressure of keeping up with upgrades.  I can already see how lacking in Ascended hurts me in WvWvW.  sPvP is DOA and people are petitioning that Spirit Watch be turned out of tourney rotation because it sucks so bad.  But all ArenaNet does is consolidate the "feedback."

This game is like SWTOR.  It's pretty horribly managed and developed and only had a deent buy-in to build a playerbase because it wasn't original IP.  If this game had been... Defiance... and laucnhed as GW2 did, it would have bled players inside of three months.
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#14 Lunacy Polish

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:49 PM

It is simple for me.  If they turn this into a me too game with 8+ tiers of stuff at Max level to grind thru, I'm out unless there are mitigating factors.

It was perfect when exotic was the top tier.  They already had plenty of room for gear progression by allowing different state combinations to come into the game.

#15 Dasryn

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:49 PM

GW2 is doing extremely well sales wise.  they are making more money with the gem store than with a normal subscription. - trust me on that.

GW2 is in a good spot, its not going anywhere, if anything devs are copying GW2's business model and it may possibly be  the deat hfor WoW in the western market.

that being said - i knew gear tiers were coming since day 1.  how?  because things like the level cap being 80 instead of 99 like traditional rpgs - things like adding ascended gear 3 months after launch - things like story wise there is too much expansion for this to be "it"

seriously, you must have been quite the naive person to think ANet wouldnt cater to vertical progression with GW2.

that and they said they were directly competeing with WoW, they have to play WoW's game if they are going to want to compete, that means vertical progression.

im ok with it because in the 14 mmos ive played, all but 1 had vertical progression, its the norm people so get used to it.,

Edited by Dasryn, 11 April 2013 - 12:51 PM.


#16 Lunacy Polish

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:00 PM

View PostDasryn, on 11 April 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

im ok with it because in the 14 mmos ive played, all but 1 had vertical progression, its the norm people so get used to it.,

I am genuinely curious what the 1 is.

Anyway this is why I had quit MMOs beyond a few fledgling efforts for a few years before playing GW2.   The treadmill design just was not working for me.

If they add a little vertical progression that is okay.  Like Ascended gear at the two year mark would have been okay.  If the level cap goes to 85 in 2014 that wouold be okay.  The problem is if they add it too fast I am out unless there is some way to remain competitive without grinding.

Either that or completely separate the PvE and WvW versions of your character.  Do that and I will adapt.

#17 El Duderino

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:07 PM

View PostKerrath, on 11 April 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

why? you get increased stat value. that makes you stronger.

I'm just gonna leave this here for everyone.



#18 Desild

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:08 PM

Higher tiers of gear aren't inevitable. Specially if they increase our performance in the margin of 2%, if Ascended items are anything to go by.

The problem, however, will arrive on the day they decide to increase the Level Cap. On that day, the economy will implode, reboot and bloat, as an entire set of material commodities is rendered obsolete.

Our armors and weapons would become irrelevant, Gem prices would soar as everyone would reach out to remake their own characters from scratch and transmute all their old items (and new ones as well). Tier 6 items would be replaced by Tier 7, and the price of those old materials would plummet, while the new ones would rise due to increased demand. And pray they don't come up with a replacement for Ectoplasm, as that too would make the new Exotics way expensive.

I'm betting Anet is already prepared for this...

Edited by Desild, 11 April 2013 - 01:10 PM.


#19 Featherman

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:15 PM

View PostDasryn, on 11 April 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

GW2 is doing extremely well sales wise.  they are making more money with the gem store than with a normal subscription. - trust me on that.

GW2 is in a good spot, its not going anywhere, if anything devs are copying GW2's business model and it may possibly be  the deat hfor WoW in the western market.

that being said - i knew gear tiers were coming since day 1.  how?  because things like the level cap being 80 instead of 99 like traditional rpgs - things like adding ascended gear 3 months after launch - things like story wise there is too much expansion for this to be "it"

seriously, you must have been quite the naive person to think ANet wouldnt cater to vertical progression with GW2.

that and they said they were directly competeing with WoW, they have to play WoW's game if they are going to want to compete, that means vertical progression.

im ok with it because in the 14 mmos ive played, all but 1 had vertical progression, its the norm people so get used to it.,

Little did they know, a large portion of the playerbase bought the game in hopes of it not turning into WoW.

Edited by Featherman, 11 April 2013 - 01:16 PM.


#20 Dasviidonja

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:41 PM

View PostStaplerPie, on 11 April 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

They won't add a gear tier above ascended, but they will add increasingly better infusions.  Notice that the best infusions you can get now are blue.  I'm betting they'll add green infusions, then orange, then pink, where the higher the tier, the more ridiculously expensive it'll be.

I hope this ^ is so. I just can't play an MMO without some type of vertical progression be it levels and/or weapon/armor stat progression. Even if it's just 5pts that's something to play for "I" enjoy instead of some vanity items I don't give squat about. I'm perfectly happy with wearing maxed out gear that I can buy in the market or find as loot. I could care less about Legendary or Culture or Exotic etc. It's just time wasted content to farm/grind for that I just will not do.

#21 Dasviidonja

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:47 PM

View PostDasryn, on 11 April 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

GW2 is doing extremely well sales wise.  they are making more money with the gem store than with a normal subscription. - trust me on that.

I don't trust strangers and those that can't provide links to actual sales stats and not a he said she said episode.

GW2 is in a good spot, its not going anywhere, if anything devs are copying GW2's business model and it may possibly be  the deat hfor WoW in the western market.


that being said - i knew gear tiers were coming since day 1.  how?  because things like the level cap being 80 instead of 99 like traditional rpgs - things like adding ascended gear 3 months after launch - things like story wise there is too much expansion for this to be "it"

yes hind sight saying you "knew" makes it "believeable"? lol not!

seriously, you must have been quite the naive person to think ANet wouldnt cater to vertical progression with GW2.

that and they said they were directly competeing with WoW, they have to play WoW's game if they are going to want to compete, that means vertical progression.

I certainly hope so I might start playing again more regularly if they add more vertical progression. Level to 100 and more stats on weapons and armor or at least the inserts.

im ok with it because in the 14 mmos ive played, all but 1 had vertical progression, its the norm people so get used to it.,

I'm used to it I just tired of waiting for it in the Guild Wars series. Vertical progression will keep many players a long long time. Sure it will be more grind but there's already grind in this game after you finish the storyline content. Dailies is a grind, farming for gold is a grind, everything is a grind after the end. So bring on something that is fun to grind for....vertical progression. :{{P


#22 El Duderino

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:48 PM

View PostDasviidonja, on 11 April 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

I hope this ^ is so. I just can't play an MMO without some type of vertical progression be it levels and/or weapon/armor stat progression. Even if it's just 5pts that's something to play for "I" enjoy instead of some vanity items I don't give squat about. I'm perfectly happy with wearing maxed out gear that I can buy in the market or find as loot. I could care less about Legendary or Culture or Exotic etc. It's just time wasted content to farm/grind for that I just will not do.

I think you're missing something here. I agree that playing a game without any sense of progression would be dull after a while. However, progression doesn't need to be vertical. Horizontal progression, such as new skills, or new types of gear stats (not better, just new), allows for progression without the unnecessary and unfortunate side effects of power creep.

Edited by El Duderino, 11 April 2013 - 01:48 PM.


#23 MazingerZ

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:54 PM

View PostDasryn, on 11 April 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

GW2 is doing extremely well sales wise.

View PostFeatherman, on 11 April 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Little did they know, a large portion of the playerbase bought the game in hopes of it not turning into WoW.

Ultimately the issue is retention, not sales of the game.  The Gem Store relies on retention more than it does sales of the boxed game.

Not that it's indicative of anything, but all the people who Liked my posts since November prior to my break in beginning of January haven't come to Guru since February at the latest.  A few are here, but a majority who were active posters just stopped.  And my guild apparently died while I was away.  There are perhaps three people who actively log on.  That's indicative (not proof) of a game that sucks at retention.  I even get that feel from WvWvW, where the issue with a lot of the bottom tier servers are due to numbers more than skill (and indicative of an issue with WvWvW 'tactics' to begin with).

An expansion would be a serious issue, never mind we were supposed to get an expansions worth of content, IIRC, with the Living Story update.  I do not see anything coming close to an expansion's worth of content and we're already in to April of 2013.  The first quarter is done and the game's barely moved.  Even WoW had better movement in Cataclysm and that was supposedly their worst expansion.  MIsts also has released way more content.

Speaking on WoW, when Burning Crusade was being developed, WoW had made enough bank to actually support an entire second team.  Over time that team, as seen in Cataclysm and Lich King, has shrunk and updates took awhile as people were being repurposed to the next expansion development, but you could tell hen that was happening.

ArenaNet is already glacial at turning out stuff just to support this game and I seriously doubt they are making the kind of money Vanilla WoW was to justify a second team of developers to work on the expansion.  Support for the game would plummet (or perhaps it already has?) if they had to shuffle warm bodies around (as opposed to hiring outright new people) to work on an expansion.
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#24 Dasviidonja

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:55 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 11 April 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

I think you're missing something here. I agree that playing a game without any sense of progression would be dull after a while. However, progression doesn't need to be vertical. Horizontal progression, such as new skills, or new types of gear stats (not better, just new), allows for progression without the unnecessary and unfortunate side effects of power creep.

Well I like "both" as long as it's progression even if it's creep. Creep allows casuals to keep up and gives me something to do besides gripe on forums. :{P

#25 Shamiss

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:18 PM

Personally, progression is probably the only thing I am not that fond of in this game (and even more of it might make me quit - I nearly did so in November), and I don't really see a particular need for it. Games don't have progression because gamers ACTUALLY want it, games have it because progression is cheap. You need to balance comparatively little for it, no area needs to be designed, and so on. It's just a dial.

Let's say that Arenanet finally sticks to their original plans and has no progression anymore. What happens?
Gear gets cheaper.

The question here is: Why is this a problem? Why should that gear always retain the value or even grow in value? This argument you make isn't logical and doesn't follow - if gear has less value, then other things grow in value instead. Like it always happens in games without gear progression.

Additional tiers aren't inevitable - they're just the laziest way to appease the lowest common denominator. If they actually do it, it'd show they really didn't have much in the idea department.

Personally, I'd prefer progression in form of being able to discover more by the world actually changing large scale frequently. That, by the way, fuels progression-less games.

#26 Calypso589

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:28 PM

View PostShamiss, on 11 April 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

Personally, progression is probably the only thing I am not that fond of in this game (and even more of it might make me quit - I nearly did so in November), and I don't really see a particular need for it. Games don't have progression because gamers ACTUALLY want it, games have it because progression is cheap. You need to balance comparatively little for it, no area needs to be designed, and so on. It's just a dial.

Let's say that Arenanet finally sticks to their original plans and has no progression anymore. What happens?
Gear gets cheaper.

The question here is: Why is this a problem? Why should that gear always retain the value or even grow in value? This argument you make isn't logical and doesn't follow - if gear has less value, then other things grow in value instead. Like it always happens in games without gear progression.

Additional tiers aren't inevitable - they're just the laziest way to appease the lowest common denominator. If they actually do it, it'd show they really didn't have much in the idea department.

Personally, I'd prefer progression in form of being able to discover more by the world actually changing large scale frequently. That, by the way, fuels progression-less games.

"lowest common denominator."

The only part that's unfortunately wrong. Whether its people that like it, people that don't give a crap or some combination of the two, they vastly outnumber the people who quit because they hated power creep.

Money speaks louder than words unfortunately.

#27 Kerrath

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:24 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 11 April 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

I'm just gonna leave this here for everyone.
I'm aware of the concept and extremely experienced in it as someone who not only played 5 years of world of warcraft, but spent the last two of them playing it at a competitive level, and I think that GW2's ascended gear provides a happy medium by providing a minor degree of progression that adds to the game without invalidating prior content.

All of the ascended gear basically is either: a backpack, a ring, an amulet, or a trinket. No exceptions. None of those ostentibly have skins--though I will concede that in a rare few cases you might see a back slot with a skin.

GW2, much like GW1, emphasizes collecting visual armor sets as a primary PvE endgame. Id est, perhaps you want the Arah set. It isn't statistically better than zerk gear, so it's not really mandatory, but it does look pretty damn cool. The ascended gear doesn't invalidate this and therefore exotic gear remains relevant for the entire rest of your set.

#28 asbasb

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:31 PM

View PostCalypso589, on 11 April 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

they vastly outnumber the people who quit because they hated power creep.

Yeah, we'll never know exactly, but what counts is ANet having made a conscious decision that would cost them the support of the purists in order to win them the favor of anyone interested in end game gear progression. And the assumption that stat progression seekers clearly outnumber those who like an unmoving plateau is a pretty fair one.

The manifesto was just clever marketing. Fool me once, shame on me.

#29 El Duderino

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:35 PM

View PostKerrath, on 11 April 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

I'm aware of the concept and extremely experienced in it as someone who not only played 5 years of world of warcraft, but spent the last two of them playing it at a competitive level, and I think that GW2's ascended gear provides a happy medium by providing a minor degree of progression that adds to the game without invalidating prior content.

All of the ascended gear basically is either: a backpack, a ring, an amulet, or a trinket. No exceptions. None of those ostentibly have skins--though I will concede that in a rare few cases you might see a back slot with a skin.

GW2, much like GW1, emphasizes collecting visual armor sets as a primary PvE endgame. Id est, perhaps you want the Arah set. It isn't statistically better than zerk gear, so it's not really mandatory, but it does look pretty damn cool. The ascended gear doesn't invalidate this and therefore exotic gear remains relevant for the entire rest of your set.

Adding gear to simply make you strong leads to power creep which is why I posted the video. Sure, it's not bad now with just Ascended Gear, but continuing the trend is what we are talking about, not what we have now.

Also, it is fairly pointless and lazy to add a gear treadmill if the gear doesn't actually provide a new experience. Hell, I'd rather have a gear treadmill that does something cool and new than a gear treadmill that just happens to make you incrementally better but not significant enough to make a difference.

Overall, Ascended Gear, regardless of its need, is a lazy addition to the game, precisely because it has little to no value to players in making their experience easier or better. At least by gating content behind gear there is a better sense of progression regardless of its inherent bad side effects.

#30 matsif

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:42 PM

they can add however much they want, as long as agony is only in fractals I really don't care.  You can complete anything in regular PvE in rares or even greens, so there's no real incentive to go above exotic if you don't plan on doing fractals that often.

Now, if they force agony on us in an expansion to fight Jormag or whatever, then I can see an even worse backlash than there was when they first released asscended items and infusions in the first place, and there will be much complaining and whining, and some people will leave, and the game will probably go on as usual.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: tiers, gear, economy, economic, exotic, legendary, weapons, armor, expansion pack

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