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Why does XP suck unless you do Hearts or DE's?


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#1 Dasviidonja

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:52 PM

I've been just plinking along killing mobs and I'm only getting about 30pts per kill or thereabouts yet if I do a heart or a DE I get tons of XP like in the 1000's......why so much emphasis on Hearts and DE's? Heck I even get more XP harvesting or gathering. THat's kind of ridiculous and the mobs I'm fighting are my level or a lil bit higher.

#2 P4ndora

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:57 PM

It's to prevent players, but most importantly bots to farm mobs mindlessly like in those korean grind MMOs. I think it has a sense that DEs and Hearts give much more XP.

Most xp comes from crafting (if you have enough money to buy mats) or doing dungeons though.

#3 ben911993

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:58 PM

Possibly to discourage farming mobs for exp, or to prevent power-levelling. That and DE's may get more experience to encourage players to join each other and take part in the cooperative content. Same with dungeons, I'd bet.

#4 Dasviidonja

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:59 PM

View PostP4ndora, on 14 April 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

It's to prevent players, but most importantly bots to farm mobs mindlessly like in those korean grind MMOs. I think it has a sense that DEs and Hearts give much more XP.

Most xp comes from crafting (if you have enough money to buy mats) or doing dungeons though.

Why would a bot care about gaining XP? I thought they were about gaining MATS and GOLD?

#5 Norseman

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:08 PM

Because every other game in existence is designed around the farm mobs for XP model. Be glad for something different and more interesting.

#6 Fizzypop

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:22 PM

I know y'all will go on and on about how farming is bad, but look this game has farming in it. Farming DEs, hearts, crafting, node gathering isn't any different and lots of people do that. Now queue the "well I don't do that I like to play for fun"...great you can play for fun, but it doesn't prevent or discourage people from farming those things. Mob farming 1. it already happens 2. bots already do it. The lower xp does nothing to prevent it or discourage it. They should raise the XP on mobs. If people want to farm let them.

#7 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:38 PM

If hearts weren't generic kill 10 rats crap and if maps had more DEs, this really wouldn't be a problem. But as it stands now, the game simply can not be designed around the idea that players shouldn't be killing trash.

#8 Neo Nugget

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:44 PM

View PostRitualist, on 14 April 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

If hearts weren't generic kill 10 rats crap and if maps had more DEs, this really wouldn't be a problem. But as it stands now, the game simply can not be designed around the idea that players shouldn't be killing trash.

I'm not a fan of renown hearts either. I suggest holding out on doing them unless they're coupled with a dynamic event. Once that happens they're usually finished well before the event is over.

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#9 Dervo

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:08 PM

View PostDasviidonja, on 14 April 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

Why would a bot care about gaining XP? I thought they were about gaining MATS and GOLD?

Because then they can go to higher level areas in order to farm them for money with less hassle.

Anyway, as for why mobs don't give great xp, trash mobs are the easiest thing to kill, with the least amount of thought to doing so... and there are areas of the game (some de's for instance have tons of mobs spawn at once, and more so when they scale up) where mobs are thick so aoe farming makes it so you kill a LOT in a small amount of time.  If mobs gave a lot of xp people would avoid de's with champs and difficult areas where you don't want to aggro everything at once.

Yes, there are areas people farm now, and other areas they avoid... but that can be solved by adding more des and decreasing their activation times (which I'm fully for) not by making mob farming more effective.  I'd rather not have the preferred way of leveling be to sit in one spot and kill things as they respawn for several levels and then move on to a new area.  This is also why most games have quests which give players several times more xp than they could get in the same amount of time by farming mobs.  DE's are the replacement of quests, so it would stand to reason that they'll give much better xp.

As for hearts, eh I don't really like them.  If mapping every zone was like mapping orr I'd enjoy doing it a lot more.  I wish they could figure out a better way of implementing those.  Though the issues with those are much less pronounced in DE heavy areas where said DE's help fill hearts.  So maybe if they increased the density/recharge of DEs I'd no longer have issues with them at all.

Edited by Dervo, 14 April 2013 - 07:09 PM.


#10 Harmony

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:54 PM

Renown hearts were never meant to be in the game in the first place. Anet put them in after initial testing showed folks didn't have a clue "how to play" and were always looking for your standard quest hubs and "go get me ten boar snouts" quests. The idea of a free roaming leveling experience confused everybody. So they threw in the hearts and the scouts to give such players pointers where to go and what to do. The main way to level was supposed to be gathering, exploring, Dynamic Events and crafting. Unfortunately DE's are so infrequent in some places that they're not really an option for some so hearts have really become the core xp of the game, which is a shame.

#11 matsif

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:15 PM

prevents power leveling via bots just killing 1 respawning mob for long periods of time.

In every fantasy MMO I've played quests/missions have always been the core XP gain.  sitting around killing boars in the woods for weeks on end has always been the slow way.  Hearts are just the equivalent of 1 time side quests, while events are the equivalent of repeatable side quests, and the personal story are the main quest/missions.

I'll agree they are relatively boring and don't have well made content though, just like most 1 time side quests in many games.

#12 Rinaldo

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:33 AM

GW2 is the same as all the others MMORPG, the only difference is......."ArenaNet just changed the name of things, but everything is still the same, well almost.
There is grinding, players grouping to kill  the same bosses all the time, boring dailies, repeating dungeons and even crafting and gathering.
It's not possible to make a MMO without all these things ...or is it?
Lots of games have awesome graphics and are easy to play and I play them most of the times just for relax and enjoyment I don't like PvP and I find GW2 nice because there are zones just for that so everybody is happy!

:D

#13 Guardian of the Light

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:34 AM

If you want to level off mobs go to areas of the game that spawn monsters that nobody kills. As time passes mobs gets bonus XP added to them as they live longer, capping at a certain point. Meaning you can get a chunk of XP comparable to finishing a heart by killing a bunch of mobs nobody has touched for hours.

It's meant to encourage exploration and let you kill mobs for XP without players spawn-camping the same mobs over and over again.

#14 Trei

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:40 AM

View PostDasviidonja, on 14 April 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

I've been just plinking along killing mobs and I'm only getting about 30pts per kill or thereabouts yet if I do a heart or a DE I get tons of XP like in the 1000's......why so much emphasis on Hearts and DE's? Heck I even get more XP harvesting or gathering. THat's kind of ridiculous and the mobs I'm fighting are my level or a lil bit higher.
Why should killing a mob give higher XP than gathering a node?

#15 El Duderino

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:45 AM

View PostTrei, on 15 April 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

Why should killing a mob give higher XP than gathering a node?

Wouldn't it be logical to think that XP should scale based on difficulty. If we can agree on that, isn't it more difficult to kill something in battle than pick flowers and mine ore?

Edited by El Duderino, 15 April 2013 - 02:54 AM.


#16 matsif

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:17 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 15 April 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

Wouldn't it be logical to think that XP should scale based on difficulty. If we can agree on that, isn't it more difficult to kill something in battle than pick flowers and mine ore?

playing devil's advocate, one could also logically give more XP to the activity that affects more areas of the game.  Gathering is essentially both an economic activity in supplying goods to the market and a subactivity of crafting.  Killing a mob is just killing a mob, it may not even yield coin or loot to sell/salvage.  That said, I do agree with you that killing a mob should be worth more XP than gathering.

#17 El Duderino

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:24 AM

View Postmatsif, on 15 April 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:



playing devil's advocate, one could also logically give more XP to the activity that affects more areas of the game.  Gathering is essentially both an economic activity in supplying goods to the market and a subactivity of crafting.  Killing a mob is just killing a mob, it may not even yield coin or loot to sell/salvage.  That said, I do agree with you that killing a mob should be worth more XP than gathering.

To follow that line of thought, you would already get the XP from crafting, so wouldn't that be like double dipping? In either case, it's not a big deal to me. Just wanted to reply with a thought I had.

#18 Dervo

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:00 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 15 April 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

To follow that line of thought, you would already get the XP from crafting, so wouldn't that be like double dipping? In either case, it's not a big deal to me. Just wanted to reply with a thought I had.

Ah, but to get xp from crafting you need to actually use up the crafting material thus creating a new (usually less expensive) item.  This also takes time, though I will admit it is quick if you know how to do it from past experience or a guide.

To get xp from gathering you need to go out into the world and actually harvest the materials, and although it may seem like a painless process, that's not quite as true about the materials that aren't dirt cheap.  Before there were sites devoted to mapping nodes, there were people asking where the orichalcum was in the cursed shore all the time.  Yeah, you also get xp from farming nodes that give items worth a few copper, but people who harvest from those just for the xp are practically wasting their time imo.

When it all comes down to it, gathering and killing random mobs (that don't have a lot of bonus xp built up) are both horrible ways at leveling up.  The only thing I feel might be off is crafting because of the fact I see so many people creating items that are merch fodder at a loss simply to level up.  The issue here is not that they're leveling from crafting, but that they don't even care about what they can make at lvl 400 in any craft.  They do it on alts even when they have 400 in that craft already, just because it's one of the cheap options.

I still feel like the only thing that really needs to be done is have more DE's that reset more often though.  Hopefully with interesting stories (but maybe that part is only something I care about).

#19 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:49 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 15 April 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

Wouldn't it be logical to think that XP should scale based on difficulty. If we can agree on that, isn't it more difficult to kill something in battle than pick flowers and mine ore?

What kind of a game are we playing? Are we playing a platformer? Are we playing a gathering simulator? Are we playing a collection of mini games? Are we playing a crafting game? Are we playing a ...
The game was sold (and bought on my side) as a game where you run around killing shit. I didn't hear Colin go out and tell they're reworking how to "swing a pick", now did he? And since the game has levels, that means I fully expect combat to be the main source of my XP. I absolutely love that there are other activities that also give out XP, but they shouldn't be treated as substitutes, but rather supplements. Or, even better, supplements that you don't need to even do because the primary way of playing the game should be sufficient.
And it's currently not.



EDIT:

View PostHarmony, on 14 April 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

Renown hearts were never meant to be in the game in the first place. Anet put them in after initial testing showed folks didn't have a clue "how to play" and were always looking for your standard quest hubs and "go get me ten boar snouts" quests. The idea of a free roaming leveling experience confused everybody. So they threw in the hearts and the scouts to give such players pointers where to go and what to do. The main way to level was supposed to be gathering, exploring, Dynamic Events and crafting. Unfortunately DE's are so infrequent in some places that they're not really an option for some so hearts have really become the core xp of the game, which is a shame.

I am really bothered by this post. Not because I would think the information in it is false, on the contrary, because I think it's true. Or better yet, it seems to represent the logic displayed by A.Net.
See, the problem is that the last sentence pretty much completely invalidates everything that was said before it. It states that we are forced into hearts, because certain locations simply do not have enough content for the game to be played the way A.Net wants it to be played. Yet the sentences before it blame the player for not being able to figure out how the game should be played.
The reason why players have issues figuring out how the game should be played, is because the game lacks the content that would allow the players to play it the way it should be played.

That's not a player issue. That's a developer issue.

Edited by Ritualist, 15 April 2013 - 06:50 AM.


#20 Azure Skye

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:57 AM

View PostHarmony, on 14 April 2013 - 07:54 PM, said:

Renown hearts were never meant to be in the game in the first place. Anet put them in after initial testing showed folks didn't have a clue "how to play" and were always looking for your standard quest hubs and "go get me ten boar snouts" quests. The idea of a free roaming leveling experience confused everybody. So they threw in the hearts and the scouts to give such players pointers where to go and what to do. The main way to level was supposed to be gathering, exploring, Dynamic Events and crafting. Unfortunately DE's are so infrequent in some places that they're not really an option for some so hearts have really become the core xp of the game, which is a shame.
People are still conditioned to do the quest from all the mmo's they know of. o.O i like the few heart that i do in the game alot of it is just a bore to do.



Personal stories give the most Xp anyways. i think.

Edited by Azure Skye, 15 April 2013 - 06:05 AM.


#21 Susanoh

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:43 AM

View Postmatsif, on 14 April 2013 - 08:15 PM, said:

In every fantasy MMO I've played quests/missions have always been the core XP gain.  sitting around killing boars in the woods for weeks on end has always been the slow way.

I'm curious about these comments that quests and missions have "always" been the core experience gain in fantasy MMOs. How far back are we talking here? Which games are you talking about?

#22 Harmony

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:52 AM

View PostRitualist, on 15 April 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

I am really bothered by this post. Not because I would think the information in it is false, on the contrary, because I think it's true. Or better yet, it seems to represent the logic displayed by A.Net.
See, the problem is that the last sentence pretty much completely invalidates everything that was said before it. It states that we are forced into hearts, because certain locations simply do not have enough content for the game to be played the way A.Net wants it to be played. Yet the sentences before it blame the player for not being able to figure out how the game should be played.
The reason why players have issues figuring out how the game should be played, is because the game lacks the content that would allow the players to play it the way it should be played.

That's not a player issue. That's a developer issue.

I agree, at this point in the game's life, my post does sound like a contradiction. The "player problem" was the reason given for the introduction of hearts. Now whether DE's were then reduced in frequency in the interests of "balance", I have no idea. Would that then mean that, if hearts were never implemented, we'd really struggle to level without crafting, etc. or would we have more DE content? Or were the hearts put in simply to increase the general xp  attainable per zone so that they didn't have to run DE's so much? I guess we'll never know ;)



View PostAzure Skye, on 15 April 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

People are still conditioned to do the quest from all the mmo's they know of. o.O i like the few heart that i do in the game alot of it is just a bore to do.



Personal stories give the most Xp anyways. i think.

That's very true, but if I'm honest, I don't think I know anyone who still does their personal story while leveling because it's so.... beige... after a certain point.

#23 Azure Skye

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:13 AM

View PostHarmony, on 15 April 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

I agree, at this point in the game's life, my post does sound like a contradiction. The "player problem" was the reason given for the introduction of hearts. Now whether DE's were then reduced in frequency in the interests of "balance", I have no idea. Would that then mean that, if hearts were never implemented, we'd really struggle to level without crafting, etc. or would we have more DE content? Or were the hearts put in simply to increase the general xp  attainable per zone so that they didn't have to run DE's so much? I guess we'll never know ;)





That's very true, but if I'm honest, I don't think I know anyone who still does their personal story while leveling because it's so.... beige... after a certain point.
What after Claw Island? I've done everything for it on 4 or 5 characters also. It is boring but its the fastest way i know to do it or i can zerg my way to 80 in WvW, your pick. :P

Edited by Azure Skye, 15 April 2013 - 09:23 AM.


#24 Kraviec

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:48 AM

Simple. When you fight mobs, you are only training combat. When completing hearts and DEs, you learn tactics and cooperation, which is far more valuable than combat skill.

#25 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 11:48 AM

View PostKraviec, on 15 April 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

Simple. When you fight mobs, you are only training combat. When completing hearts and DEs, you learn tactics and cooperation, which is far more valuable than combat skill.


Respect my apple-picking authority!

#26 Kymeric

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:02 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 15 April 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

Wouldn't it be logical to think that XP should scale based on difficulty. If we can agree on that, isn't it more difficult to kill something in battle than pick flowers and mine ore?


Honestly, it takes longer for me to get to a node and swing my pick three times than it does to kill most mobs outside of cursed shore.

#27 heatrr

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:04 PM

After leveling (to 80) 6 toons, exp gain is just fine.

#28 Yski

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:38 PM

Seeing all the complaints about DEs being too infrequent I can't help but to think people are moving around way too less. The only times I've ever had trouble finding some were when I kept running in circles hoping one to pop up right next to me.

My advice is to roam around and not stick to one area. There are five starting zones and it's easy enough to take a portal to lions arch and a whole new zone. By the time you've explored all of them and done all the DEs you've seen you should be easily high enough level to move to the higher level zones without ever doing any Renown Hearts. It has worked for me and I've just randomly ran around the map doing stuff.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I forgot to answer the actual question. I'd agree with Beta though, nodes are rewards for exploring. How experienced do you expect to get killing rabbits in your backyard?

Edited by Yski, 15 April 2013 - 02:06 PM.


#29 Beta Sprite

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:59 PM

The reason that gathering nodes give more XP is because the supply of them is lower, and they only reset at the daily reset.  You can't farm the same gathering nodes forever, but you can farm the same mobs forever.  The supply of mobs is infinite, therefore they are worth less.

#30 Angel Aruna

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:23 PM

View PostYski, on 15 April 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Seeing all the complaints about DEs being too infrequent I can't help but to think people are moving around way too less. The only times I've ever had trouble finding some were when I kept running in circles hoping one to pop up right next to me.

My advice is to roam around and not stick to one area. There are five starting zones and it's easy enough to take a portal to lions arch and a whole new zone. By the time you've explored all of them and done all the DEs you've seen you should be easily high enough level to move to the higher level zones without ever doing any Renown Hearts. It has worked for me and I've just randomly ran around the map doing stuff.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I forgot to answer the actual question. I'd agree with Beta though, nodes are rewards for exploring. How experienced do you expect to get killing rabbits in your backyard?

I agree with this, I have found that going to multiple areas of the same level to be the most fun and one of the fastest ways of leveling. By doing this you see a massive amount of the world and truly experience all that it has to offer. You find those hidden gems throughout the game. This will also allow you to skip any content that you don't enjoy. You hate hearts? Don't do them! You enjoy gathering? Go for it. If you haven't done this, I absolutely suggest it! And do this with a group, the game truly shines then. Just have fun it's a game!




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