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Frost and Flame Finale - Why a Dungeon?


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#1 ChuyDog08

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:19 PM

http://massively.joy...-brings-custom/

Is anyone else a little pissed that the very slow evolving, 4 month, SINGLE PLAYER, living story event's finale is a dungeon?

Did ANet not learn from the outrage over the Personal Story Line?  (rhetorical)

I think they should keep PVE and Dungeons events separated.  I rarely have time to play in more than 30 minute increments without interruption.  It took me less than a month to get to the last mission of the Personal Story.  It took another 4 months to complete the Arah story mission because I could not commit to the time, clear the entrance, and/or get a group. I had to actually take a vacation day from work when my son was at school to be able to have the time.  I accept that I will not be able to play some of the longer dungeons, and never be able to level in FOTM.  Please stop teasing me with Single Player PVE events that require a group to complete.

Am I the only one that has an issue with this pattern?


Edit:
I added a reply on post #9 and #50

Edited by ChuyDog08, 24 April 2013 - 04:52 PM.


#2 Digilodger

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:28 PM

The addition of a new dungeon, with apparently some new mechanics, doesn't bother me.  Rather, I'm very happy that we have a new dungeon.  I really enjoy dungeons, especially ones that challenge us a bit.


What bothers me is the length of the dungeon.  It says that this would be a ~50 minutes dungeon.  As someone with school and work (no family yet, luckily :P ), I would prefer that it's ~30 mins or less.  

Sometimes we casual players just don't have a continuous one hour of uninterrupted play time to commit ourselves to such long dungeon.

Edited by Digilodger, 23 April 2013 - 04:29 PM.


#3 Grim_Ling

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:29 PM

I completely agree with this... I too normally play for 30 min. or so uninterupted except for the occasional weekend... Flame and Frost was nice so far (yet dragging) because of the way you can play it and you can repeat!!! (if you want to)
I don't know about the dungeon stance but we shall see... I hope it is more like a mission timeline so about 20-30 min for the thing... or just 1 path/section... which would be nice.

#4 MazingerZ

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:38 PM

It's a temporary dungeon too.  Limited time only.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#5 Lordkrall

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:48 PM

Here is the answer from ArenaNet on this very question:

Quote


Hello! Thanks for starting this thread. :-)
As one of the designers for the Molten Weapons Facility, I would just like to say that one of our chief concerns throughout the development of Retribution was to address this very issue. We worked hard to ensure that the dungeon experience we have crafted is not simply possible to complete by groups of all different skill levels and compositions, but more importantly that it is lots of fun and rewarding for everyone. I understand the concerns about jumping into a 5-man instance if you’re more accustomed to solo play – in fact as a player I typically share those feelings, so rest assured that such concerns have been and continue to be addressed firsthand by our team!
Flame and Frost has so far made use of many of the different types of content available to players of Guild Wars 2. There have been open world dynamic events, solo instances, scavenger-hunts and achievements. In this case, with the culmination of Flame and Frost, given all the tools in our tool kit as developers, a 5-man instance was really the thing that made the most sense for us to pursue, as it enabled us to best tell the conclusion to this story arc in the way that we wanted.
We’re paying careful attention to this balance of content types, and the Living World teams will always strive to offer a variety of content to our players on a regular basis, and to make that content as compelling, and accessible, as possible.
Speaking personally, I hope you’ll join all of us on the Flame and Frost team and give the Molten Weapons Facility a try when it releases next week!

https://forum-en.gui...rst#post1881710

Edited by Shadok, 23 April 2013 - 10:34 PM.
fixed font size so human beings are capable of reading


#6 ShezuTsukai

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:10 PM

They can do so much more with "special" circumstances/situations with an instance. One of the reasons GW1 was unique and really fun. I'm just glad it's a repeatable yet changing dungeon. I helped a guildie run CoF1 for his armor...brain...still...numb....

My real hope is that the RNG drops don't suck so bad that I never get anything from doing this dungeon a reasonable number of times. I generally have the worst luck possible ie 306 ectos to make 77 clovers.

#7 Coooturtle

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:18 PM

Because they have used most aspects of PvE for the Flame and Frost story. Personal story, events, hearts, meta events. Now a dungeon.

#8 Mastruq

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:22 PM

View PostChuyDog08, on 23 April 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Am I the only one that has an issue with this pattern?

Cant speak for the rest of the playerbase put imo a new dungeon is overdue, even better when its tied into the current story. So for me its no isse, quite opposite I welcome it. But afaik it isnt certain yet?

#9 ChuyDog08

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:55 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 23 April 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

Here is the answer from ArenaNet on this very question:

[/size][/font][/color]
https://forum-en.gui...rst#post1881710

Thanks for the link. I checked the offical forum but must have missed this post.

View PostMastruq, on 23 April 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Cant speak for the rest of the playerbase put imo a new dungeon is overdue, even better when its tied into the current story. So for me its no isse, quite opposite I welcome it. But afaik it isnt certain yet?

I agree that they need to add new dungeons, but why to the end of something you could do solo up to that point?   They could have added the dungeon as one of the components of the story without making you complete it to finish the story.  Something like, you have an option to destory the Molten Alliance Weapon Facility.  If you did that instance you would have a chance of all the rewards for that instance and acheivement points towards completing Frost and Flame.  The story could be completed solo, but you would be missing the acheivement points for 100% completion.  At 100% completion you get a title and a small chest like the ones we get in the world event.  The chest would have one of the Molten Alliance weapon tickets.    I accept that I may never get the 100% completion, but I can at least finish what I started.

#10 beadnbutter32

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:50 PM

There have been a number of recent posts asking if this game is casual friendly.

I don't consider an hour long dungeon casual friendly.

It's basically telling casuals to make the time for an hour or GTFO.

From the obtuse way they worded the release, it sounds like they are purposely making it take a long time to discourage speed runs.

If the previous Flame instances is any clue, it may be a face role easy dungeon, with mind numbing hurry up and wait mechanics much like the way SAB was presented.  Long, multiple loading screens, long multiple unskipable cut scenes, etc.

#11 Baldur The Bold

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:56 PM

It will be nice to have somewhere new to grind out money for a precursor....
Honestly tho the flame and frost(aka nap and snooze) is just terrible with the exception of the instances. I am actually looking forward to this new dungeon since there is little else to look forward too in GW2 with the exception of watching a dragon timer clicking down to 0.

#12 Sandpit

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:55 PM

Oh my god!!!!

What is it with ANet and this damned 5-man concept? Get off this trip already!!!!!!!!

It's PANTS!

By all means make multi-player dungeons, but why can't there be some minimum scaling to support the flexibility of 3-7 party members. 5 is such a narrow, and dumb arbitrary number.

#13 Bloggi

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:20 PM

Well this announcement is a pretty firm prod in the back for me to get started on working through the living story, as I had abandoned it after finding all the lost objects previously to do something else. I presume that people must complete other instances of the living story prior to getting into the finale dungeon instance.

#14 Jetjordan

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:58 AM

View PostSandpit, on 23 April 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

Oh my god!!!!

What is it with ANet and this damned 5-man concept? Get off this trip already!!!!!!!!

It's PANTS!

By all means make multi-player dungeons, but why can't there be some minimum scaling to support the flexibility of 3-7 party members. 5 is such a narrow, and dumb arbitrary number.

wow, designing dungeons that worked for 3-7 players?  Sounds like it would have to be doable for 3 and not faceroll for 7.  I'm no game designer but that sounds like the sort of challenge that I've never seen solved in an MMO.  I mean, that would be pretty great and all, I'd be for it.  I just don't think that's even remotely feasible to pull off from a technical standpoint.

This doesn't rub me the wrong way at all tbh.  But then again I've made about 12-13 friends since launch that I run dungeons/fractals regularly with so I'm not worried about finding groups.  As for it being a longer dungeon, I guess some of us want that.  Should we be denied a longer, more demanding, experience that we find rewarding since others don't have the time?  No offense, but should I not get my legendary because some people will never spend enough time to get theirs?  

There will always be plenty of things to do if you only have 30 mins to play.  You can't expect every bit of content in a game this large, that is intended to be played with others, to be doable solo in under 30 minutes.

#15 NuclearDonut

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:07 AM

View PostJetjordan, on 24 April 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

wow, designing dungeons that worked for 3-7 players?  Sounds like it would have to be doable for 3 and not faceroll for 7.  I'm no game designer but that sounds like the sort of challenge that I've never seen solved in an MMO.  I mean, that would be pretty great and all, I'd be for it.  I just don't think that's even remotely feasible to pull off from a technical standpoint.

This doesn't rub me the wrong way at all tbh.  But then again I've made about 12-13 friends since launch that I run dungeons/fractals regularly with so I'm not worried about finding groups.  As for it being a longer dungeon, I guess some of us want that.  Should we be denied a longer, more demanding, experience that we find rewarding since others don't have the time?  No offense, but should I not get my legendary because some people will never spend enough time to get theirs?  

There will always be plenty of things to do if you only have 30 mins to play.  You can't expect every bit of content in a game this large, that is intended to be played with others, to be doable solo in under 30 minutes.

I think OP is talking about the inconsistency. Up to this point, the "Living Story" has been completely solo-able. Now the finale to the "Living Story" is only possible in a long dungeon that requires group play. ANet did the same thing with the personal story. The whole story was able to be done solo but the last mission required the completion of a group dungeon.

#16 turbo234

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:08 AM

I don't imagine they would make this extraordinarily hard or anything, being that it's part of the story. It is what it is, and honestly I'm quite happy they did this. More dungeons are never a bad thing in my opinion.

#17 Featherman

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:11 AM

I'm just glad they're doing instanced content. You can't have a quality experience with the player zergs in open world content. It's a logistical mess.

#18 Jetjordan

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:19 AM

View PostNuclearDonut, on 24 April 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

I think OP is talking about the inconsistency. Up to this point, the "Living Story" has been completely solo-able. Now the finale to the "Living Story" is only possible in a long dungeon that requires group play. ANet did the same thing with the personal story. The whole story was able to be done solo but the last mission required the completion of a group dungeon.

personal story ended with arah storymode.  Seems pretty consistent to me.   The whole problem here is after playing through the new story stuff is I see a shiny new challenge me and my buddies are going to jump right into, while others just wanted something different.  They should pug it and meet some people.  In fact, everyone that hates this idea should guest to each other to beat the dungeon!  Become friends, and then open up more content to each other that they've been missing out on since they play solo!  

...I realize that this won't happen, but people should know how much you miss out on by only playing this game alone.

#19 Trei

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:08 AM

Mmm... Yes, Anet should only make content [insert your own name here] like.

:mellow:

#20 Inraged Twitch

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:00 AM

TBH it's new content if you don't have the time to give a game more than 30min play sessions that's your problem not the game's or the dev's.  Just be glad we are getting ACTUAL content and not new higher tiered items or more gem store junk.

Edited by Inraged Twitch, 24 April 2013 - 05:02 AM.


#21 Crook

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:20 AM

Come on we're not going to bash this update because you can't have more than 30 mins of uninterrupted game play. I play maybe three hours a week and probably won't touch Frost & Flame and I'm not complaining.

#22 Bryant Again

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:17 AM

View PostSandpit, on 23 April 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

By all means make multi-player dungeons, but why can't there be some minimum scaling to support the flexibility of 3-7 party members. 5 is such a narrow, and dumb arbitrary number.

Honestly, it's not too hard imagining current dungeons scaling as such, maybe even accommodating as little as one person. I'd love to see this, it just makes sense.

View PostJetjordan, on 24 April 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

*snippet* personal story ended with arah storymode.  Seems pretty consistent to me..

it works story-wise as the 'finale', it's just that there isn't a single other point in the personal story where you need to party up with another person. Arah SM requires you to find four. I feel it would be more consistent if the story modes for the other dungeons were mandatory for the personal story.

Edited by Bryant Again, 24 April 2013 - 06:26 AM.


#23 zwei2stein

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:11 AM

View PostLordkrall, on 23 April 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

Here is the answer from ArenaNet on this very question:

[/font][/color]
https://forum-en.gui...rst#post1881710[/size]

This definitelly not andswer to this exact question.

OP is worried about content that takes about hour of uniterrupted time. That he cannot commit to such long gameplay session.

This forum post is about how they allow people bad at game and that people should not worry about playing with other people.

Which would, if it was answer to OPs post, be incredibly condescending.

#24 Dasryn

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:13 AM

i support dungeons.

not just because i love them, but because it forces players to group up and complete content!!!

this is an mmorpg afterall, i fully support the idea of forcing players to group up and complete content together

#25 DarkHorseKnight

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:24 AM

First of all I was very very happy with the personal story ending in a dungeon. Outside of the lack of epicness in the zhaitan fight I thought the ending was one of the better aspects of the personal story.

Second dungeons are fun! Single player easy modeness is OK but not quite as fun as a dungeon.

Third it is GUILD wars, guild dungeon runs are even more fun then regular dungeon runs.

Also in a game with ~1 million plus players I think people who cant play for more then 30 min is the exception not the rule.

#26 blackthornarrow

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:40 AM

My god people can complain , be glad you get free content , they worked hard on this so be happy or leave the game if the only thing you can do is complain about arenanet that they "so called" Havent learned anything. play it and then give feedback dont start by saying stupid stuff before you have tried it

#27 Desild

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:10 AM

So you would all rather have the fiasco lagfest that was the Lost Shores finale? A once in a life-time event that disconnecting meant not being able to collect the reward (which could amount to unfair precurssors)?

At least in a dungeon we will be able to do it without disconnecting...

Edit: Curse you Lordkrall! You foil me yet again!

Edited by Desild, 24 April 2013 - 08:23 AM.


#28 Dasryn

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:17 AM

the problem is that people want to solo gw2 from start to finish.

and that is a problem

why?

because GW2 is an mmorpg that was created for the mmorpg demographic.  and if the developer caters to the solo players then what we'll see is more and more group content broken down to accommodate a crowd that this game was not intended for.

seriously, there are tons of games out there that require only one player.  when you log into GW2 - or any mmorpg for that matter - you should be prepared and fully expectant to have to group with others to complete content. and i think that should be the end of the discussion.

#29 Lordkrall

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:19 AM

View PostDesild, on 24 April 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

So you would all rather have the fiasco lagfest that was the Cursed Shores finale? A once in a life-time event that disconnecting meant not being able to collect the reward (which could amount to unfair precurssors)?

At least in a dungeon we will be able to do it without disconnecting...
*Lost Shores (sorry, just had to.. :P)

But I agree, no matter which way they had done this people (sadly mostly the same people) would have complained about it.



People really need to learn that in a MMO it is quite likely that stuff will require you to play with others.

Edited by Lordkrall, 24 April 2013 - 08:19 AM.


#30 Dasviidonja

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:02 AM

View PostChuyDog08, on 23 April 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

http://massively.joy...-brings-custom/

Is anyone else a little pissed that the very slow evolving, 4 month, SINGLE PLAYER, living story event's finale is a dungeon?

Did ANet not learn from the outrage over the Personal Story Line?  (rhetorical)

I think they should keep PVE and Dungeons events separated.  I rarely have time to play in more than 30 minute increments without interruption.  It took me less than a month to get to the last mission of the Personal Story.  It took another 4 months to complete the Arah story mission because I could not commit to the time, clear the entrance, and/or get a group. I had to actually take a vacation day from work when my son was at school to be able to have the time.  I accept that I will not be able to play some of the longer dungeons, and never be able to level in FOTM.  Please stop teasing me with Single Player PVE events that require a group to complete.

Am I the only one that has an issue with this pattern?

Yes you are mostly the only one that feels like this because the game can't be made for every pure casual in the world. Some things you just have to "walk away from" in your life and this appears to be one of them. You would probably be better off with games like Skyrim and The Witcher I & II.




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