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Gamasutra - Pre-End-Game Economy Screwed Up


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#1 MazingerZ

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:45 PM

http://gamasutra.com...nomy_Review.php

Quote

With the exception of craft materials, the pre-endgame item economy is broken. As an example, I can buy a L39 coat of green (good, better than blue) quality level for 112 copper coins on the auction house. This is not a rare low sell. As I look at the auction house there are over 1000 items of this type selling at this price. I can sell the same item to a vendor for 111 copper coins. Over 1000 players took the time to sell this item on the auction house at a premium of 1 copper coin over what any npc vendor would pay them. Given that the auction house charges 5%, these players are actually losing at least 4% of the value of their goods by joining the economy. Goods are so badly flooded that it is much cheaper to just sell your equipment and buy new equipment instead of repairing it when it gets damaged.

The item economy is so bad that essentially all items of white, blue, and green quality are junk items. There is a “sell junk” button that lets you sell all items that have no game use. If this button sold all white, blue, and green quality items (which was all the items I encountered up to L64) with one click, this would have been more useful. The only items I encountered as loot that were not junk were those related to craft activity.

Thus the item economy would have been improved if all players automatically got free gear upgrades every 5 or 10 levels and all of those white, blue, and green junk items were just never itemized as loot at all. Any excitement the player feels about loot drops very quickly fades in such an environment, and it all just becomes a pointless loot gathering exercise. In other words, the item economy would have been better if it had been removed.

Thus the pre-endgame item economy in GW2 is one of the worst I have studied in the last 14 years. This acts to further undermine the crafting professions since what is the point of investing heavily in craft skills when you can buy items of similar quality on the auction house for 10% of what it would cost for you to make that item? For the cost of crafting one L20 green con weapon (just the weapon, not the skill to get that craft level) I was able to buy an entire set of green con L35 gear including all armor slots and a two handed weapon.

Last paragraph emphasis mine.  Fascinating read.

Edited by MazingerZ, 29 April 2013 - 09:45 PM.

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#2 davadude

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:58 PM

Although it's a good read and brings up valid points, the article has one major issue (an issue found in all of economics).  It assumes everybody plays for money or to make a profit.  Some people find crafting fun, fascinating, like myself.  I cannot give a rats behind how much profit I make, but learning the process and mastering it is what makes it fun.

It's not always about the money, people.
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#3 MazingerZ

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:12 PM

View Postdavadude, on 29 April 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

Although it's a good read and brings up valid points, the article has one major issue (an issue found in all of economics).  It assumes everybody plays for money or to make a profit.  Some people find crafting fun, fascinating, like myself.  I cannot give a rats behind how much profit I make, but learning the process and mastering it is what makes it fun.

It's not always about the money, people.

I counteract that with the idea that the economy was taken seriously enough for ArenaNet to hire a real economist late in development to help them manage that aspect of the game, as pointed out by the article's author.  The fact that the pre-end-game economy is in such a state can mean its either by the ineptness of ArenaNet despite hiring professional help or by design.

Edited by MazingerZ, 29 April 2013 - 10:12 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#4 Daesu

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:35 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 29 April 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

I counteract that with the idea that the economy was taken seriously enough for ArenaNet to hire a real economist late in development to help them manage that aspect of the game, as pointed out by the article's author.  The fact that the pre-end-game economy is in such a state can mean its either by the ineptness of ArenaNet despite hiring professional help or by design.

Even though I agree with that assessment, the author was only writing from a first timer perspective.  Most players just rush through pre-endgame with their alts to get past the low level doldrums as fast as they could anyway, so the sorry state of the pre-endgame economy doesn't bother them much.

What is more disturbing is that I also agree with his last point:

Quote

The strength of the game play keeps players going for a while but every player I interviewed told me that “there just was something missing”. I would suggest that something was effective reward mechanisms.
Since the GW2 business model seems dependent on tapping a sustainable economy for continuous revenue, it seems logical that they would have wanted to build a sustainable economy into their game. They even hired a conventional economist late in the development cycle, implying that they realized that this was important to the product success. Unfortunately, this seems to have been too little, too late.
While the gameplay seems to have benefited from a “how can we do this better than has been done before”, the reward system in the game seems to be at best business as usual.
The hosts have announced that they will be revamping the reward system later this year, so they seem to be aware that they have a problem. I am eager to see what they come up with.
Their endgame reward system is flawed and while they do put in an effort on introducing new content, character development and progression pretty much ends abruptly at level 80.

I have been playing the same static characters for months now. They look the same and have not become any stronger, even in any remote PvE-only way. This is getting boring fast.

The irony is that endgame reward system is what GW1 does very well, even though it has a much earlier level cap of 20. You can continue to get cool PvE-only skills, or progress your characters through Lightbringer, Slayers, or the other lines. These lines of progression only give minimal rewards but they still give a sense of progression to your characters (being PvE-only is fine too) after max level.

Edited by Daesu, 29 April 2013 - 10:37 PM.


#5 Featherman

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:38 PM

The endgame economy is a mess if you're looking beyond bare essentials. In terms of effort:value, CoF is currently the only thing worth running, and players are pigeonholed into one of two professions if they want to get in on the gold. Not very friendly design when only a fraction of the professions dominate the gold production, IMO

#6 FoxBat

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:40 PM

View Postdavadude, on 29 April 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

Although it's a good read and brings up valid points, the article has one major issue (an issue found in all of economics).  It assumes everybody plays for money or to make a profit.  Some people find crafting fun, fascinating, like myself.  I cannot give a rats behind how much profit I make, but learning the process and mastering it is what makes it fun.

We don't even need to bring up subjective things like fun either. A major incentive for crafting lies in the experience levels you gain with it. That is certainly worth investing money in, so you can get to the higher money-making levels sooner; the market value of that service is folded into the disparity of crafting mats versus the items they produce.

#7 MazingerZ

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:48 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 29 April 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

We don't even need to bring up subjective things like fun either. A major incentive for crafting lies in the experience levels you gain with it. That is certainly worth investing money in, so you can get to the higher money-making levels sooner; the market value of that service is folded into the disparity of crafting mats versus the items they produce.

His point is towards the pre-end-game economy, not the end-game.  The earlier crafting levels are essentially worthless and you could probably put that experience acceleration elsewhere.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#8 Gumboots

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:50 PM

Coincidentally, my partner and i recently rerolled our first characters and leveled them all the way to 80 barring ourselves from the trading post, it was actually a really refreshing and fun experience, every time we would get a blue or a green or gather ore there was a chance we could get something useful.

It's a shame that you have to police yourself in order to get that feeling again, but i for one will continue to play without the TP whenever i level alts.

#9 Mastruq

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 11:00 PM

Davadude, keep in mind that you and people with your opinion would still be able to experience fun crafting if the system and economy was designed in a way that makes, for lack of a better word, not suck. So no loss to you either way, but the current situation is a loss to anyone that cares about the tradeskilling and mercantile activities in MMOs. That's a net loss, as those people call it, and thats bad. Especially with Anet putting out claims like caring about a meaningful economy, hiring someone to manage it (wasted money it seems), etc.

I want them to fix crafting to stay fun for those that craft for the hell of it AND be fun for the more economy-interested crafters. They can flush the market with a temporary mystery chest offer and start over at any time, so it IS fixable. But only if Anet actually starts to care.

#10 Roybe

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 11:04 PM

On the low level economy...it does not play like other MMO's.  I had a 1 or so hour knock down drag out fight with 2 of my friends that were highly conversant in a few other MMO's economies.  They could not understand the idea that vendor trash should not be sold on the AH.  They just wanted to empty their pockets while in the field and sell on the AH to make space...i.e. they valued their space (and play time) more than they valued their income.  This is why there are thousands (literally) of items at 1 copper+ vendor (and many more items being shown below vendor since when the game first started you COULD buy/sell things below vendor).

Apparently in other games you can just throw items into AH's below vendor and immediately sell it (suprise there!), which would immediately cause an inflationary death spiral as people would purchase anything below vendor and immediately vendor it, manufacturing money.

Personally, I don't believe the low game economy is 'broken' as much as people do not know how to 'play' the auction hall...

Edited by Roybe, 29 April 2013 - 11:07 PM.


#11 MazingerZ

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 11:07 PM

View PostGumboots, on 29 April 2013 - 10:50 PM, said:

Coincidentally, my partner and i recently rerolled our first characters and leveled them all the way to 80 barring ourselves from the trading post, it was actually a really refreshing and fun experience, every time we would get a blue or a green or gather ore there was a chance we could get something useful.

It's a shame that you have to police yourself in order to get that feeling again, but i for one will continue to play without the TP whenever i level alts.

I've leveled two of the least played classes to 80 already.  I wish there was a third plate option, because there are so many Warriors and Guardians running around as the least broken classes, that I'd rather not get invested in one.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#12 FoxBat

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 11:11 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 29 April 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

The earlier crafting levels are essentially worthless and you could probably put that experience acceleration elsewhere.

"Probably"? Like what? 150 gems for a one-hour XP booster, when 300-500 some should grant 10 levels from maxing a crafting discipline?

#13 HederaHelix

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 11:20 PM

IMO, crafting in this game is more about the experience (XP and the fun that IS crafting in this game versus others) then it is about the economy.  There are MANY other things in the economy.  I do agree that it might be "horrible" to some people, but I don't really have too much trouble making money middle game on any character.

#14 Bloggi

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 11:24 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 29 April 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

His point is towards the pre-end-game economy, not the end-game.  The earlier crafting levels are essentially worthless and you could probably put that experience acceleration elsewhere.

Agree, but it really depends on the reason for leveling a crafting profession, which would vary by individual. Some will level a cheap crafting profession to gain roughly 10 levels for their toon. Some level all the crafts for the title. Some like myself, level the craft with the end in mind: getting the high-end exotic gear that can only be crafted at level 400. So in the final example, the pre-rare crafted gear being near worthless is inconsequential. Arguably, with the advent of ascended gear, even rare-tier equipment is pretty much junk now in terms of stats. The only thing keeping the price up is the ability to convert most of them to ectos, or to forge in the hope for an exotic or precursor. Why was ascended gear released? Because people were complaining about the lack of progression.

In my experience, while leveling a toon and relying only on loot to gear up (using only greens and blues, while selling any rares I find), there is still a tinge of excitement to get a green at my level that I can use on the spot. Naturally if we take the easy (or some may argue, the cost-saving method) way of using the TP to replace our damaged gear at no cost, then we spoil the fun for ourselves. Now there have been numerous arguments against armor repair costs and waypoint costs, and while I am not against those costs, I am also not a masochist who suggests that paying for these costs is 'fun'.

Nevertheless, regardless of the instance discussed, it shows that each of our actions has consequences...it's a fine balance of pros and cons.

#15 XSevSpreeX

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:24 AM

Personally, I see part of the problem with whites, blues, and greens is that it doesn't take that long at all to level up, making it pointless to buy or craft those items for any reason other than the mystic forge. That also ties into many players' feeling of lack of progression since they hit 80 so fast then they immediately used that money they made while leveling (money that wasn't spent on equipment because it would have been replaced within a couple of hours) to buy their exotic equipment. Fast leveling worked fine in GW1 when most of the content was after you hit the max level and there was (pretty much) no gear treadmill (except for value and aesthetics), but GW2 has fast leveling and a gear treadmill, making buying anything less than a rare on the TP almost pointless which in turn makes people sell them for only 1 copper more than merchants offer.

#16 Xunlai Agent

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:25 AM

At the moment crafting isn't really economically viable but i wonder what they can do to address the issues raised. It's a great article that makes a pertinent observation!

Edited by Xunlai Agent, 30 April 2013 - 12:26 AM.


#17 Soki

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:50 AM

View PostHederaHelix, on 29 April 2013 - 11:20 PM, said:

IMO, crafting in this game is more about the experience (XP and the fun that IS crafting in this game versus others) then it is about the economy.  There are MANY other things in the economy.  I do agree that it might be "horrible" to some people, but I don't really have too much trouble making money middle game on any character.
It's a design flaw that crafting skills in an MMO cannot make you money.
However, I'm almost positive it's by ANet's design that it's difficult to make more than a pitance of profit on any item.

The economy is designed around nudging players to Gem->Gold converting - and that's one of the largest flaws with GW2. Every system is designed around nudging players to buy gold.
That, and the fact that ANet is unable to design good bosses.

#18 pumpkin pie

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:13 AM

TLDR below

People are finally catching up huh?!. I made a thread some time ago on how to price your low level items on TP.

There's a max price you can use for each price tier. TP charge 1 copper for anything selling at 29 coppers and below. if your piece/item sells at 11 coppers to merchant, one should push to 29 coppers and not 12, not 13 not 14 coppers or anything below 29 at the TP, because we want to max the profit. for 1 copper, we could get to list our item at 29 coppers, why would you list it at anything below that? if your interested look at the screenshot.



29-1 copper
49-2coppers
69-3coppers
89-4coppers
109-5coppers


However there are times I want to sell quickly, for instant in a dungeon and my bag is full, in cases like this i just sell a few and match what ever price.

Because of the ridiculously low pricing, players don't bother to sell their low level stuffs on TP, that is why it is pretty hard to find good (green) low level items on the TP for my low level alts.


Long story short, when you list your item in the TP make sure you make profit more than you can selling to the merchant, otherwise it would be wiser, faster and easier to sell it to the merchant.

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#19 madmaxII

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:45 AM

Even end-game economy sucks. There are tons of worthless whites/blues/greens/rares/exotics. When comparing their drop rate to their value even the better skins, like Emberglow and the Final Rest, are not worth the effort. Then there are the shitty precursors (aquatic and horrible skins like the focus),  basically a big "♥♥♥♥ you", and finally the valuable precursors. Of course there are also cores and lodestones, but that's all you can find. Sadly, there is no middle ground.

#20 Lunacy Polish

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:05 AM

One of the developments I've seen for the past umpteenish or so years in gaming has been the pervasive introduction and reliance on what are essentially Auction Houses.   You can call it a Trading Post and make it work differently but the effect is the same:  it makes the economy efficient.  Worthless things are worthless and desireable things rocket up.

I remember an era of gaming where we did not have these features, and while it was less convenient, it was definitely more of an adventure to have to go to individual players or guild stores to buy items, and it introduced the possibility of inefficiency.  Much as large retail chains in real life have destroyed the quality of life retail employees used to have by eliminating all the personality uniqueness slack and ease to make things cheaper for the customer, the sheer efficiency of the Auction House based economy is dooming most MMOs to an economy that doesn't serve most players save for those who gain much currency early on and corner the market.

I'm not saying my experience of having to find player merchants running their own stores or storefronts through consignment NPCs is the system GW2 needs, I'm just pointing out there's an alternative with its own advantages and disadvantages that might create something of an actual economy by capturing inefficiency.

I have been told by a PhD, who worked for the Federal Government, that real economists don't understand macrolevel economics to any useful degree and all the current models are too broken to explain enough of the behaviors of a post industrial society to be truly useful.  That's only relevant because it says to me this crap is hard and we shouldn't expect much out of a video game.

#21 Dasryn

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:24 AM

this was something that i was talking to some guildies about the other night.  indeed i feel like many players are unaware that listing an item on the TP for slgihtly above vendor value will actually cause them to receive, LESS than vendor value.

wahts even more disturbing is that Anet is allowing this mechanic to function.  its almost like a trick to slow people down during leveling from being able to earn money.  this mechanic along with waypoint costs is a nickel and dime gimmick that many players need to be aware of before listing on the TP.

#22 Arshay Duskbrow

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:25 AM

An accurate summation. How many times have we done a chest boss, and what do we get out of the chest? Nearly worthless blues and greens. As the article says, armor should not have dropped directly at all, just like it didn't in another, better game I once played...

Guild Wars 1.

Edited by Arshay Duskbrow, 30 April 2013 - 06:28 AM.


#23 zwei2stein

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:52 AM

Anet screwed up a bit by allowing people to list for vendor price + 1c

It should have been Vendor price *1.15 + 1c - that way, it would never be sold on loss.

Also, I have to note that they still have not put any effort to cleaning up AH - there are still many items with 1c buy orders that can never be fullfiled.

Another problem is infinite listing duration for everything - while neccesary for raw materials, it should be much less for other items

View PostLunacy Polish, on 30 April 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

I'm not saying my experience of having to find player merchants running their own stores or storefronts through consignment NPCs is the system GW2 needs, I'm just pointing out there's an alternative with its own advantages and disadvantages that might create something of an actual economy by capturing inefficiency.

This sort of alternative is not viable.

If you raise bar at participating in economy to finding buyer or seller you kill market for low-end items because it would not be worth it to spend time selling those items.

Having experienced that market, i gladly take GW2.

View PostMazingerZ, on 29 April 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:


Bollocks.

Every Single MMO Has This Problem. It can not be solved.

Everywhere, mid level items are not worth anything. Few buy them up because those itemes are outleveled soon enough and they will miss that cash when reaching level cap.

Crafting was always NOT about prodution of items, but about leveling to crafting cap and selling only items at crafting cap. Rest of items being vendored, disenchanted/salvaged or used by crafter himself. GW2 has mechanic of grafting-for-xp. To expect any mid level crafted item to be worth anything is... well, how to put it...

GW2 does miss mechanism that would clean those items up - both salvage and mystic forge not really helping out, but that is just clutter at AH.

Another problem is that people do not really want to sell those items to other players - they are using Marketplace as method to clean up inventory when in middle of nowhere. It is better to tun at loss of few copper than just trashing item. That is not economy failure, that is people abusing post-anywhere mechanic.

Also, i like this comment:

Quote

The abundance of trash gear serves a purpose, and was probably designed with that purpose in mind. That trash can be turned into crafting materials - which are always in demand - via scavenging kits. Scavenging kits are tiered by level and have a fixed price at the vendor, that vendor price is basically responsible for the market price of scavengable crafting goods, it stabilises it and also acts as a situational cash sink that keeps inflation in check.

Whenever demand for crafting goods is high and prices begin to rise, people start scavenging gear instead. Gear is so abundant that it is always available at the lowest possible price set by its vendor sale rate, so this is always an economical option if crafting material prices rise too high. Normally this gear would be vendored, which injects cash into the economy, but if prices rise this scavenging mechanic flips the switch and instead of generating cash by vendoring the gear, players instead spend cash on scavenging kits at the vendor, taking cash out of the economy.

- Basically, author od article does no understant salvage market and giving people loot without triggering inflation.

#24 davadude

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:15 AM

View PostMazingerZ, on 29 April 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

I counteract that with the idea that the economy was taken seriously enough for ArenaNet to hire a real economist late in development to help them manage that aspect of the game, as pointed out by the article's author.  The fact that the pre-end-game economy is in such a state can mean its either by the ineptness of ArenaNet despite hiring professional help or by design.

Fair point, thanks for the interesting read!
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#25 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:35 AM

As a guy that absolutely despises playing the economy (I am playing games to have a flat tummy while killing hordes of shit, not so that I can crunch numbers), I consider GW2's economy, while not as good as GW1's, pretty darn amazing: I love that selling shit to the merchant is the default action and I love that crafting can be completely avoided.
The problem though, is that GW2 is designed to be a vertical progression game and the items in the economy are supposed to be its rewards: and they aren't rewarding in the least. The fact that we are getting worthless items wouldn't matter if the game was about horizontal progression, as GW1 shows nicely: killing shit becomes the game and what the shit drops is pretty irrelevant. But as it stands now: we either have a game that doesn't fit its economy or we have an economy that doesn't fit its game and in both cases we are ending up with a game that is worse than it could have been.

Something needs to happen and I worry that that "something" will be what I don't want it to be: GW2 embracing its vertical progression (which is what we are seeing with ascended gear, WvW progression, ...) and shaping the economy to fit the game. What I do question though, is if GW2 can become as good of a vertical progression game as the games that are build from the ground up to be just that.

#26 Nerel

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:26 AM

Pre-end game economy? Really? Is the author an IDIOT or simply someone who DOESN'T PLAY GW2 (or GW1 for that matter)... What is the point in having an economy for those few hours (or at worst, days) that it takes to hit level 80?

Guild Wars isn't about grinding for months on end just to reach 'max' level, it is something that is relatively quick and easy to obtain... the entire game isn't about getting to max level, it's about everything that happens after you max out your level.

Pre-end game economy... lols.

#27 DarkHorseKnight

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:49 AM

Hes right but... so what?

Crafting professions are still a great way of making money if you know how. I have 3 level 400 crafting professions that cost me ~30 gold to max total. Each of them has already paid me back at least 5x.

I dont mind at all the state of the GW2 economy. Items for alts are cheap, crafting can make money and flipping can make money.

#28 Cevilo

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:49 AM

tnh I think the biggest flaw in the system is the fact that you can almost mindlessly set up stuff on the AH with out breaking action. the only other game with AH I can compare this too is WoW or diablo 3. but in both cases, you need to stop what your doing go back to town, while you're there you could sell the garbage to the merch. in GW2 case I often find me self in a situation where I'm in the middle of a dungeon or some DE and my inventory fills up, in a dungeon its pretty rude to be like "hey brb selling to merch" and in a DE if you leave the area you lose credit. so what to do? pop open bltc sell sell sell mindlessly sell so you can return to the action.

another problem, is the gear is essentially meaningless. I have 6(almost 7) lvl 80s. and a lvl 35. only 1 character has gear that came from the AH (my first character) and that is his lvl 80 MF equip. every thing else was found or I grinded for (yay dungeon tokens) I specifically remember my else being lvl 80 with most of his gear pieces being lvl 45-70 accessories like 28 and below from story quests. I was still able to effectively run COF with a group and be useful until I found lvl 75-80 greens to replace my crap gear. honestly any thing "pre end game" is essentially worthless. mind you, this same gear I've had leveling solo, and had no problems until about mid 70s soloing story mode started getting hard. the stats are pretty trivial. no one *needs* any thing until your level 80 and hit end game. at that point you grab the best gear you can find and do end game stuff.

View PostDaesu, on 29 April 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

The irony is that endgame reward system is what GW1 does very well, even though it has a much earlier level cap of 20. You can continue to get cool PvE-only skills, or progress your characters through Lightbringer, Slayers, or the other lines. These lines of progression only give minimal rewards but they still give a sense of progression to your characters (being PvE-only is fine too) after max level.

I feel your pain but even if gw1 does it well you have to realize how long it took to get those systems in place. the "Light bringer" wasn't introduced until the second stand alone game, Nightfall. which was a year and a half (minus 1 day) sense the Original Guild wars released. even then you couldn't complete the light bringer title until about 6 months later when the Hard mode update was released. and 4 months later we got the slayer titles in the first real expansion of gw1. so that's 2 years and 4 months it took to get all these things out that made us enjoy gw1. right now(for gw2), our "options" for progression are the ascended items, leveling fractles, and leveling our WvW levels. that's about 7 months after release. honestly, if there are any doubts, just look at their track record. it's not going to be now, but they are going to add more. atm they have 3 different play styles to try and please. balancing pvp, giving pve people more content to explore, and giving WvW more balance, and several other things people want to take this game the distance.

#29 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:06 AM

View PostCevilo, on 30 April 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

I feel your pain but even if gw1 does it well you have to realize how long it took to get those systems in place. the "Light bringer" wasn't introduced until the second stand alone game, Nightfall. which was a year and a half (minus 1 day) sense the Original Guild wars released. even then you couldn't complete the light bringer title until about 6 months later when the Hard mode update was released. and 4 months later we got the slayer titles in the first real expansion of gw1. so that's 2 years and 4 months it took to get all these things out that made us enjoy gw1. right now(for gw2), our "options" for progression are the ascended items, leveling fractles, and leveling our WvW levels. that's about 7 months after release. honestly, if there are any doubts, just look at their track record. it's not going to be now, but they are going to add more. atm they have 3 different play styles to try and please. balancing pvp, giving pve people more content to explore, and giving WvW more balance, and several other things people want to take this game the distance.

"When it's ready".

#30 DarkHorseKnight

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 09:26 AM

View PostCevilo, on 30 April 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

I feel your pain but even if gw1 does it well you have to realize how long it took to get those systems in place. the "Light bringer" wasn't introduced until the second stand alone game, Nightfall. which was a year and a half (minus 1 day) sense the Original Guild wars released. even then you couldn't complete the light bringer title until about 6 months later when the Hard mode update was released. and 4 months later we got the slayer titles in the first real expansion of gw1. so that's 2 years and 4 months it took to get all these things out that made us enjoy gw1. right now(for gw2), our "options" for progression are the ascended items, leveling fractles, and leveling our WvW levels. that's about 7 months after release. honestly, if there are any doubts, just look at their track record. it's not going to be now, but they are going to add more. atm they have 3 different play styles to try and please. balancing pvp, giving pve people more content to explore, and giving WvW more balance, and several other things people want to take this game the distance.

I am so so so so so so so so so so tired of seeing people forgiving obvious holes in the game because the game is new.

It is "Guild Wars 2" , not "Some Totally New Game That Isn't Based On Anything, From A Company That Has Never Made a MMO Before". Guild Wars 2 is by definition a second iteration Guild Wars which means that it should be able to avoid most of the problems and hiccups that GW1 had by knowing about them and some of the possible solutions for fixing them.

Like it or NOT arena net is going to be judged not only on GW2 as a stand alone product but on GW2's predecessor. That would be like forgiving a car company for a CRAP car because its a new generation. Being a new generation does not give you permission to forget the last generation and all its lessons.


NOW A-Net has not totally forgotten the last generation and a lot of very nice things from that are incorporated into GW2, but IMO there are a number of instances of history repeating itself in GW2 that could have and should have been foreseen.

AND even if Anet fixes them (which you'd have to think they will) that will not erase my dissapointment that they had to waste time to fix something again which they should have just done right int he first place, because they already had to fix it once before.




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