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Why GW2 Feels so Grindy


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#1 El Duderino

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 03:32 AM

This pretty much sums up why GW2's design feels so grindy, IMO.



#2 Featherman

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 03:38 AM

Basically. GW2's skinner box isn't even masked by an interesting loot system like in D2 and PoE.

Edited by Featherman, 04 May 2013 - 03:55 AM.


#3 Gerroh

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:09 AM

I'll agree it's present in GW2, but I won't agree with the people who'll inevitably come in here and say this is all GW2 is.

#4 Craywulf

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:18 AM

It's only a grind if that's all you feel it is. Every game can feel like a grind if you get bored with it enough. There are parts in GW2 that are more tedious than others, but as a whole I don't feel like game is boring.

#5 El Duderino

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:36 AM

View PostCraywulf, on 04 May 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

It's only a grind if that's all you feel it is. Every game can feel like a grind if you get bored with it enough. There are parts in GW2 that are more tedious than others, but as a whole I don't feel like game is boring.

You didn't  bother to watch the video did you?

#6 MrIllusion

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:45 AM

Doesn't seem to be a link or attachment in the OP.

#7 MazingerZ

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:01 AM

View PostMrIllusion, on 04 May 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

Doesn't seem to be a link or attachment in the OP.

Embedded youtube.

link

Edited by MazingerZ, 04 May 2013 - 05:02 AM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#8 Trei

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:29 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 04 May 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

This pretty much sums up why GW2's design feels so grindy, IMO.
[video]
I totally agree with that video!

But I don't fully agree with you.
I happen to find a lot almost all of the "alternative" methods to engage players the narrator suggested to be already present in GW2 in some form.

So you see... how subjective it all is?

Edited by Trei, 04 May 2013 - 06:30 AM.


#9 Craywulf

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:44 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 04 May 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

You didn't  bother to watch the video did you?
I've seen the "skinner box" presentation a few times already, so I'm aware of it.

#10 Arioch

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 07:08 AM

Your statement that this is why Guild Wars 2 feels more grindy is... not entirely correct.

First, realize that the skinnerbox theory works with almost all RPGs and stuff beyond, including (if we are to believe the video, Solitaire) However, we're playing an (MMO)RPG, so we should discuss it relative to other MMORPGs.

Now, compare GW2 to WoW, when I played WoW I felt the compulsion to continue way after it's fun. The game is positively built around behaviorism theories. Arenanet consciously went away from these theories and made a more honest game. That's why it's a lot easier to stop content in GW 2 after it's stopped being fun. Me and my friend have had breaks, sometimes days, sometimes weeks sometimes months. We hop from one kind of content to another depending on what we find most fun at the time.

Since we're talking relative to MMOs and WoW is much grindier then GW 2, we must conclude that Skinner Box cannot be a satisfying answer. I would give an alternative one, I would suggest that GW 2 suffers from a similar problem as Dungeons & Dragons 4th edition. The monsters HP are simply bloated. I encountered this both as a player and as a GM. I solved it by mentally decreasing the monsters HP by a certain percentage and increasing their damage by another. The players were ecstatic, they didn't understand why but they found the combat to be not just faster, but also fun exciting and challenging.

Now, when 5 people who are playing Heroes (and yes, all our characters are supposedly heroes) spend a full five min pounding on a lieutenant of a gang (not their leader, no, a mere lieutenant) it can feel a bit grindy. When you mindlessly go around, without any real challenge and start discussing dinner plans next Saturday while pounding a boss, it can feel a bit grindy.

#11 Arewn

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 07:22 AM

Alright, a Penny Arcade video and the collection of auto-likes for it's inclusion and surface level relevance. Now care to outline how this relates to GW2 in a meaningful way, besides superficial reasons that can't be escaped due to the game being bound in it's state as an RPG (which the video takes note as intrinsically containing skinner box elements in the genre's nature).
GW2 as an MMORPG of course falls into one of the categories of games that borrow most heavily from ol skinner's box, but considering the tangible and generally functional efforts made to reduce it, such as flattening the leveling curve, focus on exploration, giving tokens instead of chances at random drops, the general increase focus on skill requirement vs the classic 'memorize a rotation' commonly found in the genre, the removal of several classic content gates and gear treadmills, etc (these elements should need no explanation since they are touched on in the video), why is this significantly relevant to GW2 in particular?

So, can you give a solid example, or collection of smaller but cumulatively significant examples, for how or why this is the case for GW2 beyond it's RPG elements?
I'll start you off with an outside example of my own. Here's a clear example of why WoW does: raids, they are a major part of the game that receive large amount of development resources, they work off a system where the player is set on a schedule (weekly lock outs), must repeat content a large amount of times to get gear in order to be viable to participate in the raids, then must repeat the raid's content one boss at a time repeatedly in order to progress to acquire more gear, the chance of getting which is a gamble (random chance to drop), further progression in the system is repeating the raid again with minor changes for additional difficulty, but is essentially dependent on getting more powerful gear (heroic mode), all of which resets and requires you to restart periodically when new content comes out.

For GW2 you could say "Legendaries and the like! they are RNG and require stupid amounts of content repetition to acquire(grindy) and are supposed to be the game's ultimate (pve) goal." but... in the end legendaries are just a skin that are there as an excuse/motive for people who want to grind. There's a small selection of them, they haven't been significantly updated or added to since release, don't require much development focus, and it's laughable to say the player requires them in any way shape or form.

The most relevant point I can see for this, which is coincidentally touched on by Featherman, is that since Arena Net didn't heavily focus on making use of the skinner box techniques, the base RPG elements which contain them aren't properly covered up and feel grindy as a result.
For example, one of the RPG elements (perhaps the primary) that are directly tied to the skinner box is gear, you progressively acquire more powerful gear, which is commonly tiered in some way, and you become driven to acquire it to the point that getting that next, more powerful or otherwise desirable, piece of gear is a larger driving factor to play then playing the game itself is. Arena Net's decision to make gear more accessible and less of a focus/requirement works against this motivating factor, while still keeping the gear/tiers/progression in the game. The result being that gear generally isn't greatly desirable or significant as a reward, and when you do feel the need to go after it, feels grindy. Even getting an exotic drop doesn't feel that great, its significance is just that it's worth more when you go to sell it on the TP. But then when you have to go get a specific exotic for your armor, it can easily feel grindy, like you're going out of your way for something you generally just toss into the UI for extra gold, and is ultimately a minor upgrade that you don't even require to play.

I feel there may be some confirmation bias going on, a desire to see negativity towards or general negative mind set towards the game, and then focusing on relative negative point in the video that support your ideas, without taking the whole into account. As a game, yes, GW2 uses skinner box techniques, and becoming conscious of this makes it feel grindy. But as an MMORPG, GW2 is on the comparative opposite end of the skinner box, taking the genre's long going status into account.

A note on the before mentioned content gates and gear treadmills, all i mean is: we're not running AC 20 times to gear up, so that we can run AC heroic 20 time to gear up, so that we can run AC the raid 20 times to gear up, so that we can maybe run AC the raid heroic to get gear, and then have it all reset when new gear comes out next patch.

#12 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 07:30 AM

Looking at the suggestions on how to make the game better:

1. Mystery.
Given the amount of content in an area and given the amount of content a player needs to play though to level, there's no mystery: you need to do everything in the given area and you need to do it in a specific order. As a guy that loves exploring (pretty much the only title I display on my characters, outside of Gladiator, is Traveller, just because it best describes how I enjoy experiencing games), GW2 exploration feels like GW1's wall-hugging: I still remember being completely disgusted with myself for running along the map borders, with my view turned towards the edge instead of enjoying the map I was actually in.

2. Mastery.
While players can get better, there's no reason to do. You can easily complete content with a fairly brain-dead playstyle. Which ties in with ...

3. Mental Challenge.
When the game tries to be difficult, it mostly succeeds in being annoying. Contrary to a lot of players though, I'd be perfectly fine with an easier game as long as it's designed nicely: as I said numerous times, GW1 was at its best when it was moderately difficult. Also in GW2, my absolutely favourite foes are the veteran oakhearts: they aren't as easy as the most random of trash, but they aren't hard either. They just seem to be on the right level of difficulty that A.Net is capable of designing for.

4. Narrative.
There is no narrative in this game. Not only is the story here optional, players are expected to jump through hoops to participate in it. The lack of a narrative also doesn't help with a sense of mystery.

5. Novelty.
I loved GW1's approach of giving players tons of skills, allowing said player to take on the same problem with different tools. You also weren't punished for rebuilding your character (this includes having to pay for a respec or gear having a massive influence on your build -  so when you want to switch builds, you are hit with massive costs, cost that simply aren't worth it because everything works) or travelling around the world as heavily as you are in GW2. Not only that, due to the Swiss army knife approach to characters, you also lose out on the superb party-building aspect of GW1: running around in a paragon heavy team, that was build quite differently to a caster heavy team, is still one of my favourite gaming experiences ever.

6. Flow.
I think CoF P1 is a part of the game that flows pretty nicely: the problem with it is that you need to skip a lot of the path to achieve that flow and that seems to be very much representative of the whole game: shit not only takes too long to kill it's also utterly unrewarding . The way to achieve flow is to play the game the way it doesn't seem to be designed to be played.

Edited by Ritualist, 04 May 2013 - 01:55 PM.


#13 Susanoh

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 07:30 AM

Hmm. I disagree, at least for me. This game's extremely casual approach to things like dungeons, loot, and crafting never gave me the impression that I have to keep playing. I might log in and do a few dungeons, but I'm not sitting there glued to my screen hoping for the almighty rare drop. I may knock off a few crafting levels but I don't sit there hoping for the mighty critical success that makes my product slightly better and worth 10 times more (due to being so rare and "the best"). This game is convenient as easy to play, leave, and later come back to. I take long breaks. I play other games. There's only one reason I might log into GW2 just to knock off a quick achievement, and that's dailies, but I'd hardly say my logging in for 20 minutes or so to do that feels "grindy."

#14 Ian42onGuru

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 08:00 AM

View PostArioch, on 04 May 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

.

Does anyone know how to like this post twice? ;)

Oh how I would like to lower the health of many a champion and even some veteran mobs in the world.....and dungeons.  (champ branded scorpion thing in Fields of Ruin to name one)

#15 Featherman

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:15 AM

View PostArewn, on 04 May 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

Alright, a Penny Arcade video and the collection of auto-likes for it's inclusion and surface level relevance. Now care to outline how this relates to GW2 in a meaningful way, besides superficial reasons that can't be escaped due to the game being bound in it's state as an RPG (which the video takes note as intrinsically containing skinner box elements in the genre's nature).
GW2 as an MMORPG of course falls into one of the categories of games that borrow most heavily from ol skinner's box, but considering the tangible and generally functional efforts made to reduce it, such as flattening the leveling curve, focus on exploration, giving tokens instead of chances at random drops, the general increase focus on skill requirement vs the classic 'memorize a rotation' commonly found in the genre, the removal of several classic content gates and gear treadmills, etc (these elements should need no explanation since they are touched on in the video), why is this significantly relevant to GW2 in particular?
It's indirectly related to GW2. The topic is trying to pinpoint why GW2 feels grindy and it points to the skinner box. However, the Skinner Box doesn't necessarily equate to grind. It's just a tool, and as a tool it can have different effects based on the context in which it's used. Grind is incidental to the use of the skinner box, just like how the skinner box method is incidental to RPGs due to dice rolls and rng. (Irrc, there have very good RPGs that use very little or no Skinner box to extend playtime through repetition. I think puzzle quest is a good example of this.) WoW and EQ are the classic examples of grind through skinner box loot drops, so it's natural that in this day and age people would associate grind with the skinner box.

Now here's how it's relevant: GW2 uses the skinner box method ubiquitously (dailies, fractals, mystic toilet, and hell the leveling experience is a tutorial for teaching player gear rarity) to compel players, but manner in which it does so is largely uninteresting. The video mentions that there are certain biological needs that, after a threshold is reached, the skinner box method is ineffective in causing most people to continue with their actions . There are also needs in which the skinner box will remain infinitely effective. If we were to draw analogies from GW2 to this video, GW2 treats levels and stats are the biological needs and gold and cosmetics are the latter. As per the theory, the max levels and an appreciable level of gear stats are achieved easily before the "end game." After reaching the endgame, gold and cosmetics become relevant (because everything else is pretty much irrelevant).

This is where the difference between good and bad skinner boxes becomes apparent, hence why I made my earlier comparison. The skinner box used in Diablo 2 and Path of Exile, the two games I mentioned earlier  is effective because it works in conjunction with experimentation, and also because it doesn't care about player equality. The highest tier, which is also the rarest, gear in both games aren't just powerful, they're build enabling. A level 10 unique in PoE can open up character builds that even a max level character might consider using. This causes players who've stumbled upon a unique to look at skill gems and traits they've previously acquired in a different light and possibly to spend time to level them and respec them respectively, PoE takes this further by adding randomness to the gem slotting system, forcing players to gamble currencies to get the highest number of slots on their gear with the right linkages and colors (although to be fair, the game's RNG is a little cruel in this respect). This in turn causes players for the necessary currencies. With the exception of currency farming, the loot is completely unexpected. You're not playing with specific goal in mind, but simply playing and adapting to the items the game throws at you.

It's obvious why GW2's skinner box fails and consquently feels uninteresting and grindy. It focuses on things that are inconsequential to play because it's held back by the game's philosophy and structure. You can certainly experiment with builds and recipes to find ways of accruing gold, but in the end gold doesn't mean that much in terms of actual play except being able to buy nicer-looking things or to level your alts faster. The legendaries cause players to look at their skills differently in the most superificial sense by changing the look of the skills, but not the actual functions. They bring no substantial variation to the way the game is perceived.  Furthermore the grind required in achieving legendaries or any other cosmetics is exacerbated by both the presence of specific goals and the volume of  investment needed to reach those goals. It takes an average of one hour of farming to collect a lodestone, and you can't even do anything with that lodestone until you've collected a hundred or more. It's no wonder players turn to gems to their way through the grind.

The only only saving gace of GW2's skinner box is that its completely optional. This poses the problem of player retention, but that's a different can of worms and not worth derailing this thread for.


View PostArewn, on 04 May 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

A note on the before mentioned content gates and gear treadmills, all i mean is: we're not running AC 20 times to gear up, so that we can run AC heroic 20 time to gear up, so that we can run AC the raid 20 times to gear up, so that we can maybe run AC the raid heroic to get gear, and then have it all reset when new gear comes out next patch.

That's quite a surface level comparison. WoW's heroic system is effective because the volume of content available serves to change the tone gameplay, breaking the monotony of the mandatory grind. Since the system is working, it must mean the the dungeons are at least enjoyable. I shudder at the though of being forced to do GW2's dungeons as part of a gear treadmill.

Edit: Grammar and spelling.

Edited by Featherman, 04 May 2013 - 09:31 AM.


#16 Swoopeh

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 10:15 AM

View PostFeatherman, on 04 May 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

It's obvious why GW2's skinner box fails and consquently feels uninteresting and grindy. It focuses on things that are inconsequential to play because it's held back by the game's philosophy and structure.
...
The only only saving gace of GW2's skinner box is that its completely optional.


This I feel is the most important difference here though; GW2 does use Skinner's box in several elements (like you mentioned) but at the same time it goes against Anet's philosophy so they've intentionally neutered their implementation. This creates the problem  that people who are used to playing this way try to find it in GW2 and come away disappointed because it just isn't as effective as what they're used to.

There are in fact other retention mechanics in the game, whether or not they work for someone is entirely subjective and sadly not all the implementations are as good as they could have been.

#17 JayPea

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:13 AM

This is probably one of the most interesting and well written threads I've ever read on Guru. Although I stopped playing the game a while ago I still come here to read on a daily basis and it's threads like this that prove it's worthwhile. Well done and thanks to everyone contributing to this topic.

#18 Dasviidonja

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:55 AM

The loot system and no vertica progression makes it that way also. I keep going what am I playing this for at level 80

#19 Mastruq

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 01:51 PM

Skinner box principle is a pointless argument because, like the video says, its the core of most games these days. It doesnt apply to GW2 more then its contemporaries, as pointed out it might actually apply to it less. It is true that most consumer retention in MMOs is based around the skinner box and that kinda explains GW2s problems on that front - less skinner box leads to more people only playing when they feel like it, so in the big picture it means fewer concurrent users.

My conclusion is I want Anet to add more skinner box elements to the game (look at the molten facility: repeatable, random rare valuable loot, and fun enough to gloss over the repetition to the point that you still do it though the fun is gone). SAB was similar, too. Maybe Anet places too much value in making things also time-limited to put on the subconscious pressure of "must do it now".

#20 quantum712

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 02:02 PM

Watching that has made me want to go play Fallout 3 AGAIN.

#21 Soki

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 02:14 PM

What's important is that it's a skinner box that isn't masked by anything.
While it feels odd to say, when you're designing games that have a rank-up system, you're definitely working a skinner box into the game to keep people interested - and then you actively try to hide the fact that the player is getting conditioned to keep pecking away at the button, because, at some point, they'll probably get a treat.

You're actively trying to hide that that's what's going on to the player; because when it's too obvious to forget, we get a problem like GW2 - where every item is too rare, the market makes it hard to run around and play the gameplay part of the game and make decent profit, and you're obviously getting told when to log in and buy gems when ANet releases "limited-time only!!! Buy now!!!" exclusives in the gem-store.

When the skinner's box is an intricate dungeon where 1 in 3 times you'll actually get something neat out of it, it becomes less of a skinner box and more a skinner playground.

#22 Desild

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 02:35 PM

View PostSoki, on 04 May 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

What's important is that it's a skinner box that isn't masked by anything.

What most people don't know is that there are many kinds of Skinner Boxes. One that rewards you each time you pull a lever, and another that gives you physical pain whenever you are not pulling a lever. I actually experimented with one in college and those things are a blast! The mice keep hammering that lever just to stop the low voltage current, until they broke it and the teach had to cut the power off.

Guild Wars 2 is the former I'm afraid.

It becomes a real anguish when I have to keep nailing down at the game just to get something worthwhile out of my gaming experience. If I'm not careful, Guild Wars 2 leaves me spiritually drained over the amount of punishment I have to inflict on myself to get anything.

Want a cool weapon? Do a dungeon 10 times. Open 30 chests using these really expensive keys. Kill that boss 15 times and be lucky. Gather 250 of these items and toss them to the forge over there.

For those feeling distraught by my observation that maybe we shouldn't have to slave this hard to get cool stuff, here's a disclaimer:

"That feeling of ineptitude you are experiencing right now is not intended as at no point in time are you required to work for these cool weapons. You're not supposed to even want them! But they suuuure would make you look cool though and more socially desirable towards your piers, so think about it okay? "

^The mindset people try to sell when they say cosmetics aren't required.

Yeah, this game is really painful...

Edited by Desild, 04 May 2013 - 02:40 PM.


#23 Mr_Finesse

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 02:40 PM

Guess what.


GW2 isn't as "grindy" as GW1 or WoW.  There, I said it.

#24 Arewn

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 03:38 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 04 May 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

That's quite a surface level comparison. WoW's heroic system is effective because the volume of content available serves to change the tone gameplay, breaking the monotony of the mandatory grind. Since the system is working, it must mean the the dungeons are at least enjoyable. I shudder at the though of being forced to do GW2's dungeons as part of a gear treadmill.
I'd be quicker to agree with this if not for the countless hours I've spent over the years I've played WoW having to repeat dungeons oh so many times, though I agree that WoW does a good job with the system. Admittedly my example is exaggerated considering you can generally skip the first part (non-heroic dungeons), and not many people actually do heroic raids. Exaggerated or not, my point with that was simply to illustrate that GW2 has no such thing, a preemptive note against those who may still be obsessed with the idea that ascended gear is a an actual gear treadmill.

That aside, your thoughts in the rest of the post are in-line with mine (thus the like).

Edited by Arewn, 04 May 2013 - 08:06 PM.


#25 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 03:42 PM

View Postquantum712, on 04 May 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Watching that has made me want to go play Fallout 3 AGAIN.

Hey, there's always Fallout New Vegas as well ;)

#26 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 03:53 PM

View PostMr_Finesse, on 04 May 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Guess what.


GW2 isn't as "grindy" as GW1 or WoW.  There, I said it.

Guess what.


GW2 isn't as "rewarding(in terms of the overall experience, the fun factor, and loot)" as GW1 or WoW. There, I said it.

Edited by I'm Squirrel, 04 May 2013 - 03:53 PM.


#27 Darkobra

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:03 PM

View PostMr_Finesse, on 04 May 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Guess what.


GW2 isn't as "grindy" as GW1 or WoW.  There, I said it.

You're absolutely right! In all of the above, I can get to level 20 in a day!

#28 Wickity

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:25 PM

I actualy find myself refreshed when reading posts from El Duderino or I'm Squirrel. Not because they are always right(mostly in my perspective), but because it's associated with the truth which apparently the Guru community fears above anything else. It's as if they are still stuck in the trailer videos long before gw2 launched and are now desperatly trying to justify the shortcommings of this game. You can see it(feel it) in every second post. That subtle hint of disappointment coupled with overexaturated praise...it's just so blatently obvious.

Like this:

View PostDarkobra, on 04 May 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

You're absolutely right! In all of the above, I can get to level 20 in a day!
...As if the level speed has anything to do with what the author of this post was trying to say, or even with the general grind all together.


I agree that the grind in this game is ridiculus at points. Far far far beyond what WoW had/has. The sheer fact that any real material like lodestones can not be gathered while just doing the casual farming here & there. The carrot on the stick legendary which is the actual gw2 end-game, and again the depth-lacking monthly updates, which while cute seem to be there to divert the attention from the real issues and break the monotony of this game.

#29 Darkobra

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:43 PM

I'm sorry, Wickity. I wasn't aware I had to make it more obvious. It IS actually about linear progression.

Now considering their entire game is supposed to be "end-game" and how everything is allegedly "cosmetic" (yet heavily tilted to their gem store), there is actually more grind than in the original Guild Wars game.

When I was on my way to Kryta, I had that progression. There were many skills to master, many viable builds and I had the story unfold. A world coming together.

In WoW, there was always something that made you stronger from your labour. You didn't do a dungeon because you're going to get an under-levelled piece of armour with a nicer skin that you need to buy transmutation stones for. You did it because it got you strong enough to progress to higher dungeons.

In GW2, I do a dungeon, I get money and tokens out of it. Not the stats you want? Find a weapon that does have them and buy our transmutation stones! I get to level 80? Well now you're downlevelled to level 1 in Queensdale! Got 500 gold? Well you've almost got enough money to buy a precursor for a legendary weapon that requires more grind, luck and cash than any actual skill involved!

So yes, if you had taken the time to properly think about it, rather than dismiss it, you would have seen that common link.

#30 Desild

Desild

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:44 PM

View PostWickity, on 04 May 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

...As if the level speed has anything to do with what the author of this post was trying to say, or even with the general grind all together.

I think he was just being sarcastic though... Even as far as saying that GW1 and WoW are less grindy, perhaps? Meh.

But what you say is true. People on the forums need a good reality check. A retrospective.

I for one have a bit of perspective for you all. Take a look at these two hammers:

http://www.wowhead.com/item=28800

http://www.gw2db.com/items/67167

Both are good looking hammers that I have. One took me a lot of grinding to obtain, the other not so much. Both have very popular skins.

Which game was it that had less grind? Guild Wars 2 you say? Well...

Edited by Desild, 04 May 2013 - 04:44 PM.





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