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#1 Sparrwen

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 03:12 PM

Hello there

As I could see there wasn't any topic related to what I'm about to tell so I created one myself.

The problem I'm facing is my dying guild. It's a good one, been like a family to me but the problem is that the guild leader and the officers are rarely online. They rather play other games than GW2 but seriously, you are the guild leader. You aren't supposed to abandon the members in your guild to play other games days in a row. An inactive guild leader is exactly like having no guild leader at all

This affects the other members that stop showing up in guild events because why should they? I don't blame them. As a member myself I try to show up on guild events but it feels not as fun as it used to. Maybe because I realized this guild threats its members differently. I noticed one day during a guild event that should have started 30 min earlier but didn't because an officers weren't online. So... they don't mind waiting for an officer but if a member shows up 30 min later they won't wait for the member. They will start the guild event anyway.

Do you people have the same trouble with your guild? I really don't want to leave the guild but it feels like.. I should. But then I'll leave the nice members in the guild behind. Those people that makes the game more entertaining.

#2 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 03:36 PM

well.. I got a couple problems in my guild concerning 3rd party programs such as teamspeak.

-the guild leader rarely plays the game

-the officers only use teamspeak and disregard everyone in guild chat

-this is the BIGGEST guild on the server ( [BURN] ); 500 members per guild (1500), we have 60+ players on at all times, yet none of the officers participate in guild chat.

-NO other members use teamspeak

-we require representation at all times, which makes multiple guilds unviable

I would leave, but this is the biggest community on the server... and my server is half brazillian (no racist/I mean absolutely no offense).

Anyways, I think it's pretty dumb for officers and leaders or GUILDS in general to use teamspeak. I was in all the major guilds in GW1 (KISS and The Raven Alliance for example) and we NEVER used teamspeak and NEVER had any problems and the guild chat was really entertaining because everyone was participating. Completely ruins the social factor of the game.

EDIT:

also we have a website where all members are REQUIRED to register on, which is completely pointless; nobody even looks at it; we can simply just use the message of the day text box

Edited by I'm Squirrel, 04 May 2013 - 03:38 PM.


#3 Darkobra

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:11 PM

So I took a quick read of that from the other end of the room...

I don't see why people shouldn't take a break from the game. Running a guild is a thankless, demanding job and you will jump down their throat at one mistake. It's a game. A casual game where there's no risk for doing anything. You won't lose days of work when you die. You won't miss something amazing for missing out on one day. There are many other games out there. There are many more important things in the world that demand attention now.

Hell, I run a guild and my guild is the LAST thing on my mind. I don't see why you need your hand held to play the game to be honest. If they're not on, does your guild stop working? Do your dungeons shut down? Does your drop rate lower significantly? Just play the game. If you're not happy in that guild and expect to be making demands from real people with real lives, find a guild of unemployed teenagers.

#4 pumpkin pie

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:19 PM

I joined another guild and made it better then the one I used to love.

The first Guild I joined and came to love , the leader went missing. Last word in their daily announcement is good bye, and dated 2-3 months old,

#5 Sparrwen

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:04 PM

Thanks for your replies.

It made things a little bit clearer now. Also I realized I probably demand too much of my guild leader and officers. Too much that a mere human can live up to. Thanks for that insight Darkobra. Actually, nothing stops when they are unactive, the only thing that happens is that the guild dies. Pretty much the same when a teacher never shows up for their class. You know what happens then? The class disbands. What I wanted from the guild was community. Nothing else actually. So Darkoba you lead a guild I see. Have you had people leaving?

A guild doesn't actually need a program such as teamspeak but it makes things alot easier such as doing dungeon runs with the guild. Though not everyone wants to use it. Some people are too shy to use it and some... just doesn't want to use it. But I've seen it happen aswell when officers use a voice chat program and disregard on what the others say in guild chat. That's a shame.

Guess it's time for me to move on and find a new territory.

#6 Dasryn

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:01 PM

running a guild is tough.  you have so many personalities to have to deal with at one time.  you ahve to be fair, you ahve to engage your guildmates, you have to drive the guild to do events, etc.

its a tough job.  i agree with Dakroba about taking a break.

at the same time though, if you are going to run a guild, its your responsibility to look after those you invite into it.  i once told a guild leader, "i think you have the talent, but not the heart".  and thats what you need, not one or the other, but both.

it sounds to me OP, that your guild needs to call a team meeting, and lay it out - get everyone on the same page and figure out what frame of mind the guild is in.

#7 Raagar Deathclaw

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:17 PM

I agree with Dasryn on this, if you start a guild you've committed yourself to leading that guild, if you don't want the responsibility then don't make a guild, go join one instead. Also teamspeak or vent or mumble or any voice program is a great addition to any guild, if it's actually used. OP try getting some other members onto teamspeak even in off hours when you aren't doing missions or dungeons, my guild usually has 5-10 members (not officers but members) in vent during off hours and it works just like guild chat.

If the guild has to wait for officers to start a mission but won't wait for a member whom they know is coming then that needs to be addressed, nothin else for it.

@squirrel, you're not a part of Blackmire Group by chance are you?

#8 Wordsworth

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:32 PM

View Postpumpkin pie, on 04 May 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

I joined another guild and made it better then the one I used to love.

The first Guild I joined and came to love , the leader went missing. Last word in their daily announcement is good bye, and dated 2-3 months old,

Seems rather melodramatic.

#9 Scorpion

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:35 PM

View PostSparrwen, on 04 May 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

Hello there

As I could see there wasn't any topic related to what I'm about to tell so I created one myself.

The problem I'm facing is my dying guild. It's a good one, been like a family to me but the problem is that the guild leader and the officers are rarely online. They rather play other games than GW2 but seriously, you are the guild leader. You aren't supposed to abandon the members in your guild to play other games days in a row. An inactive guild leader is exactly like having no guild leader at all

This affects the other members that stop showing up in guild events because why should they? I don't blame them. As a member myself I try to show up on guild events but it feels not as fun as it used to. Maybe because I realized this guild threats its members differently. I noticed one day during a guild event that should have started 30 min earlier but didn't because an officers weren't online. So... they don't mind waiting for an officer but if a member shows up 30 min later they won't wait for the member. They will start the guild event anyway.

Do you people have the same trouble with your guild? I really don't want to leave the guild but it feels like.. I should. But then I'll leave the nice members in the guild behind. Those people that makes the game more entertaining.

Have the same problem with the ones I'm in as well. This is the second one I joined that started to die. Looking for another one but seems like good ones are hard to come by. Even then if you try to talk some of the others aren't talkative at all. So the search continues.

Edited by Khalija, 04 May 2013 - 08:37 PM.
removed off-topic question to prevent it from going off-topic - if you have a question about someone's avatar, PM them instead


#10 MisterB

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:39 PM

The concept of holding any guild member accountable for mandatory attendance in a video game is absurd.

#11 nerfandderf

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 08:33 PM

It isnt easy. But a GM knows they are losing interest and should have officers in place to make up for it. But it appears your officers are starting to go as well. Time to move on.
I find it disrespectful not to tell your members what and how you feel. Since frankly you spend an inordinate amount of time with them. Add in the fun stuff and sharing ect.
Once the officers get tardy the core players will notice (like you) and get nervous. Once these people lose confidence it is over since they are the real people behind the guild. The people who are on everyday for hours at a stretch.


I have personally been through 3 guilds in gw2 already. Because of waning interest. That is fine it is a game and I dont expect people to keep at it. But they should have a system in place that if a few key people go they have support to be brought in and then you recruit again. That is if they want the guild to continue.
Small guilds are much more susceptible to destruction because 1-2 people means it dies.


It isnt an easy decision to leave but add those you like to your friends list. If the leadership isnt there and the officers have lost interest there really is nothing you can do. The final thing to ask is are you happy? are you doing the activities you want to be doing? Is there enough guild chat ect for you?


A difficult issue and I wish you well. That is just what I learned the last little while - once the officers start to go and lose interest and no one takes their place- it means trouble.

Edited by nerfandderf, 04 May 2013 - 08:35 PM.


#12 Just Horus

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 04:28 AM

View PostMisterB, on 04 May 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

The concept of holding any guild member accountable for mandatory attendance in a video game is absurd.

I EXPECT EVERYONE TO DONATE 50k IN KURZ FACTION EVERY DAY!!!

#13 Dasryn

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:33 AM

View PostMisterB, on 04 May 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

The concept of holding any guild member accountable for mandatory attendance in a video game is absurd.

this is a catch 22.  guild's flourish when kept busy and entertained.  i know its easier for me to log in to a game when i know my guild has something planned.

well if no one showed up to those events, the guild would stagnate.  then people only log in for a few personal reasons and then it just sucks.

so you see? you need participation, but you are right in the sense that this is just a game.  thats the age old struggle though.  MMORPGs are game that require a lot of commitment.  you take the commitment away and you get stagnation.

#14 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:46 AM

View PostDasryn, on 05 May 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

this is a catch 22.  guild's flourish when kept busy and entertained.  i know its easier for me to log in to a game when i know my guild has something planned.

well if no one showed up to those events, the guild would stagnate.  then people only log in for a few personal reasons and then it just sucks.

so you see? you need participation, but you are right in the sense that this is just a game.  thats the age old struggle though.  MMORPGs are game that require a lot of commitment.  you take the commitment away and you get stagnation.

That's why I am so bothered with the idea of creating guild content: it just further splits the population that has access to it. First the population is split due to data centres, than due to servers and now it's further split due to guilds.  The point of an MMO should be in the world coming together and not in splitting it into tiny pieces.
GW1 was a pretty decent step forward in uniting the playerbase, and it's a real shame that the games that followed it are failing to incorporate its solutions.

#15 pumpkin pie

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:10 AM

View PostWordsworth, on 04 May 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Seems rather melodramatic.

it really happened, last to words in a sentence. I am not quoting the whole sentence because i don't want to implicate anyone.

I am still sort of attached to that guild, so are most of the Guildies, but we all went our seperate ways joining different guilds.

Long Story Short: there are other guilds out there that are as good or better.

#16 Dasryn

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:34 AM

View PostRitualist, on 05 May 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

That's why I am so bothered with the idea of creating guild content: it just further splits the population that has access to it. First the population is split due to data centres, than due to servers and now it's further split due to guilds.  The point of an MMO should be in the world coming together and not in splitting it into tiny pieces.
GW1 was a pretty decent step forward in uniting the playerbase, and it's a real shame that the games that followed it are failing to incorporate its solutions.

but at the same time, guilds bring a lot to an mmorpg since the dawn of mmorpgs.  i held off on joining a guild for a long time, in fact i leveled 2 80s before considering joining a guild.  now that im in a decent guild, i look back on before and i consider it rather lonely.  a guild is a way for like minded individuals to gather and cooperate.

i dont think guild content is bad at all.

#17 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:59 AM

View PostDasryn, on 05 May 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

but at the same time, guilds bring a lot to an mmorpg since the dawn of mmorpgs.  i held off on joining a guild for a long time, in fact i leveled 2 80s before considering joining a guild.  now that im in a decent guild, i look back on before and i consider it rather lonely.  a guild is a way for like minded individuals to gather and cooperate.

i dont think guild content is bad at all.

It's lovely that the game allows like-minded players to connect: you are probably going to form closer bonds with the people in your guild than with the people in the map, server or game even. The problem arises when you force players into these small groups so that they can access certain content or rewards. And it's not just guild content, it also ties to servers or data centers: why would a guy that ended up on a low population server be forced to play alone (or not even be able to access content), when you have tons of folks willing to play with him on other servers?

What's the point of having a world-wide game, if you are going to force players in tiny groups, groups that can end up limiting the content these players can access?

#18 BuddhaKeks

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:13 AM

Well if you are ultimately not happy with your guild, then join another, it's not that you even have to leave your current guild, you can just switch to represent another.

That said, I have a similar guild. It was founded in 2009 in GW1, but some of us new each other from older guilds, some of us are guildmates since 2005. We've known each other for so long that we are more than just a guild (well the core group), we are a circle of friends who even meet each other from time to time, usually once a year.

However in GW2 the guild is mostly inactivie. Our leader hasn't showed up 7 months and others are inactive for up to 4 months as well. But that sounds worse than it is, since we basically split the guild leader position into 3 people, the founder who is afk due to real life taking the toll, the web admin of our homepage who is still very much active and me, the forum and news admin of our site (even though ingame I only hold the title of an officer, but in the hierarchy I'm above all officers). So while the majority of our guild is afk, we still have enough key figures there to support new players, which is why our guild is growing, not dying.

So my advice to you would be, if you want to stay in your guild, ask them if they can promote one of the active players, maybe you, to officer while they are playing other games, This way the guild can remain functionally active and your leaders and officers don't have to worry about everyone leaving while they are busy playing other games.

#19 Dasryn

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:15 AM

View PostRitualist, on 05 May 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

It's lovely that the game allows like-minded players to connect: you are probably going to form closer bonds with the people in your guild than with the people in the map, server or game even. The problem arises when you force players into these small groups so that they can access certain content or rewards. And it's not just guild content, it also ties to servers or data centers: why would a guy that ended up on a low population server be forced to play alone (or not even be able to access content), when you have tons of folks willing to play with him on other servers?

What's the point of having a world-wide game, if you are going to force players in tiny groups, groups that can end up limiting the content these players can access?

what you are describing is one of the drawbacks of multiple server achitecture that palgues all but a few mmorpgs.  yes its too bad that ANet did not invest in better architecture butthey did allow free server transfers for quite a while there at the beginning and now they still allow server transfers for a fee and guesting for free.  this is much better than a game like SWTOR that did not offer server transfer until over 6 months into game life.

GW2 has always allowed cross server dungeon running, which was a fantastic idea.

#20 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:42 AM

View PostDasryn, on 05 May 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

what you are describing is one of the drawbacks of multiple server achitecture that palgues all but a few mmorpgs.  yes its too bad that ANet did not invest in better architecture butthey did allow free server transfers for quite a while there at the beginning and now they still allow server transfers for a fee and guesting for free.  this is much better than a game like SWTOR that did not offer server transfer until over 6 months into game life.

GW2 has always allowed cross server dungeon running, which was a fantastic idea.

It's absolutely clear that games will have limitations: but the point is to accept that they are limitations. Which means this is something that needs to be worked on (either in the game in question and/or games that will follow it) and it means that the game should be built with those limitations in mind: if players will be forced into guilds, servers or data centers, it would be nice if the limitations stemming from this would have as minimal effect on the game as possible.

#21 Sparrwen

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 03:42 PM

I've read what you all wrote. It makes me all warm and fuzzy inside... no not really but still. It's good I can get to know other point of views of this problem.

Holding a meeting with the guild sounds like a good idea. An opportunity to talk things through. That could help.

About your suggestions BuddhaKeks to represent another guild is pretty much out of the question since my guild doesn't like that we represent other guilds. And to promote one of us active players into officer could be a good idea but I don't see myself as an officer. Nor do I see anyone amongst the members as a possible officer. They don't have what it takes. They don't seem to be those kind of people that gladly helps other and create events and lead events. They are too passive, thus I don't see them as possible officer. People that are passive and rather take orders than give orders and be helped instead of helping - is not suitable for that rank. However I've found out that our guild leader doesn't look at it at the same way. Because why are some of the officers passive no matter what? How did they even earn the titel officer? Obviously due to their relationship with the leader... I guess.. I've lost my faith in the structure of the guild.

I mean, ofc the guild is a place for people to hang out and be social - nothing more, nothing less. But the title officer means more than just a member. It means someone with more authority (the officers can invite new members, etc) and if they are just going to give out that title to anyone why not just let us all be equals and let the members have the same authority as an officer? As a result, there won't be any ranks such as an officer in the guild.

Oh man.. I think that's my real problem with the guild.. Or well, I have a couple of problems with my guild  but that could be the main conflict I can't cope with. I guess a small guild or no guild at all would be more suitable for me. However, then I'll miss out the content which requires you to have a guild. Such as guild rushes..

Excuse me for venting out.

#22 Takami

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:12 PM

I'm a guild leader of a very small guild. I'm also a game developer and on occasion have to work from 7am through to 2am for days at a time in a crunch to meet a project deadline. Nothing hurts me more to return to the game when things cool down to find half my players have vanished as they assumed I had all but given up the game.

#23 Draino

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 06:26 PM

OP, you have three choices, basically:
1) The guild meeting route, get the troubles on the table and bring the leaders to a resolution...possibly alternate leaders, no 100% rep, whatever.
2) Leave to another guild
3) Foment a revolt and several of you who see eye to eye leave and start a new guild out of the old dying one.

The one choice that doesn't usually work out is "Stay and hope for the best."

#24 Dasryn

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:24 PM

View PostTakami, on 05 May 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

I'm a guild leader of a very small guild. I'm also a game developer and on occasion have to work from 7am through to 2am for days at a time in a crunch to meet a project deadline. Nothing hurts me more to return to the game when things cool down to find half my players have vanished as they assumed I had all but given up the game.

delegate brosef.  get some officers, let them know the skinny and delegate in your absence.  mind if i pm you about the games you develop?

#25 Cube

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:11 PM

In your situation I would have contacted the members that you enjoy playing with and those you'd like to make your own guild with. I agree with that unactive guild leaders should just resign or make a second guild leader. It annoys me that they keep being the guild leader when they are running a guild with active members and running events/missions/whatever and then unable to or not interested in being there!

No, I'm not talking about the guild leaders who have to work. Who have normal work days, but then again you should have either officers or another second guild leader to be there when YOU'RE NOT.

I've been in several guilds where the guild leader decides he wants to go play other games, for days, for weeks. And never log in, and is too big of an idiot to realize how extremely annoying this is for everyone else, who relies on the guy to log in to ask about things or to in my cases, join another alliance, etc. In a guild where we are all officers it didn't bother me much, but does because in the end only the guild leader could change our alliance. And then he of course decides to not log in for ages. If you're prepared to run a guild, then you need to be prepared to log in at least once a day, IMHO unless you've notified people there's a specific reason you can't be there.

Just leave and make a new guild if it gets to a point where it's more of an annoyance than something you're OK with. IMO it all depends, for some people 3 days is too long, for others it's not. For me I'd be gone within a week or something, unless the guy says something.

@I'm Squirrel: These kinds of guilds, ugh, I absolutely hate them. ^^ They are the "Quantity over Quality" guilds. They are about numbers, nothing more or nothing less.

Edited by Cube, 05 May 2013 - 11:27 PM.


#26 Takami

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:36 PM

View PostDasryn, on 05 May 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

delegate brosef.  get some officers, let them know the skinny and delegate in your absence.  mind if i pm you about the games you develop?
Sure, I can only talk about games released in the past though.

#27 Butcher

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:45 PM

Being the leader of a typical run-of-the-mill zombie guild isn't hard work at all. It's so easy, a cave man could do it. I've been the leader of two very renown RP guilds on WRA back when I played WoW. Here's the catch: I ran them both at the same time. Now that's what I call hard. However, I never backed down, and if I needed a break, then I'd communicate with my officers and put out a guild wide message.

If your guild leader is absent with no excuse, then you're probably in the wrong guild. So definitely show some initiative, hold a meeting, and maybe work out new leadership under a new banner.

#28 Bloodtau

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:13 PM

View PostSparrwen, on 04 May 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

Hello there

As I could see there wasn't any topic related to what I'm about to tell so I created one myself.

The problem I'm facing is my dying guild. It's a good one, been like a family to me but the problem is that the guild leader and the officers are rarely online. They rather play other games than GW2 but seriously, you are the guild leader. You aren't supposed to abandon the members in your guild to play other games days in a row. An inactive guild leader is exactly like having no guild leader at all

This affects the other members that stop showing up in guild events because why should they? I don't blame them. As a member myself I try to show up on guild events but it feels not as fun as it used to. Maybe because I realized this guild threats its members differently. I noticed one day during a guild event that should have started 30 min earlier but didn't because an officers weren't online. So... they don't mind waiting for an officer but if a member shows up 30 min later they won't wait for the member. They will start the guild event anyway.

Do you people have the same trouble with your guild? I really don't want to leave the guild but it feels like.. I should. But then I'll leave the nice members in the guild behind. Those people that makes the game more entertaining.

Most guilds are dying, the game is just emptying. Servers these days seem to have a handful of big guilds which everyone is flooding to to try and get some sense of social interaction. Only way to really do this sadly. Join one of these bigger guilds is your only real option as of now

#29 Sparrwen

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:38 PM

Some days have passed since I last wrote. It was indeed a good idea to talk things through because we did. It's better now in the guild. I told them what I thought about the guild and suggestions for improvement and they had no problems with it. There will be more officers in the guild to help recruiting and keeping the guild alive. So far, the guild is still alive.

View PostBloodtau, on 07 May 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Most guilds are dying, the game is just emptying. Servers these days seem to have a handful of big guilds which everyone is flooding to to try and get some sense of social interaction. Only way to really do this sadly. Join one of these bigger guilds is your only real option as of now

That's sad actually. I don't like the big guilds were you become a number and not a person because there's too many people in it. I prefer smaller guilds were everyone knows everyone and helps everyone. Small guilds are like families, big guilds are like a crowded room with people. But I guess most people are only for the special perks which you can get from fully upgraded guilds (that happens to be big guilds most of the time because of the numbers of people in it). Honestly.. I never took any advantage of those perks, no buffs, no nothing for me. But it worked fine anyway, so I can live without it. So I guess I'm one of the few who wants small guilds and not big ones to join.

#30 Sparrwen

Sparrwen

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:45 PM

View PostCube, on 05 May 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

In your situation I would have contacted the members that you enjoy playing with and those you'd like to make your own guild with. I agree with that unactive guild leaders should just resign or make a second guild leader. It annoys me that they keep being the guild leader when they are running a guild with active members and running events/missions/whatever and then unable to or not interested in being there!

No, I'm not talking about the guild leaders who have to work. Who have normal work days, but then again you should have either officers or another second guild leader to be there when YOU'RE NOT.

I've been in several guilds where the guild leader decides he wants to go play other games, for days, for weeks. And never log in, and is too big of an idiot to realize how extremely annoying this is for everyone else, who relies on the guy to log in to ask about things or to in my cases, join another alliance, etc. In a guild where we are all officers it didn't bother me much, but does because in the end only the guild leader could change our alliance. And then he of course decides to not log in for ages. If you're prepared to run a guild, then you need to be prepared to log in at least once a day, IMHO unless you've notified people there's a specific reason you can't be there.

Just leave and make a new guild if it gets to a point where it's more of an annoyance than something you're OK with. IMO it all depends, for some people 3 days is too long, for others it's not. For me I'd be gone within a week or something, unless the guy says something.

@I'm Squirrel: These kinds of guilds, ugh, I absolutely hate them. ^^ They are the "Quantity over Quality" guilds. They are about numbers, nothing more or nothing less.

Oh I hate that too when guild leaders do that. I wonder if they knew that they can share the responsibility for the guild among other members in the guild so if they go offline for days, weeks, months or years there will be other people that holds the guild alive. Ofc, if they want to be offline for months maybe it could be a good idea to lend the leadership to someone else (or give it). But they never do, they cling to the leadership even though they're not there.

Luckily, the leader in my guild is better than that. I didn't have to leave it, it was enough to talk things through with the leader and the members in the guild. We came to conclusion that it could be best if the leader shows a little bit more activity (such as login in a couple of times every week) but get more officers to run the guild and keep on recruiting members. That's what we are doing right now. Else our leader said he could give the leadership to someone else if he was going to be less active.

Edited by Sparrwen, 14 May 2013 - 04:49 PM.





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