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Magic Find - Why it is bad!


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#1 Elysen

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:16 AM

Link to my post on the official forums - is a pretty good laugh due to so many people defending both points of view.

*[Flame wall: Initiated!]*

Magic find is a bad stat. This is not news to many, and many others refuse to accept it. I'm here to draw the line and briefly explain some of the reasons why it is bad.

-----

Where is it good?
I will admit, Magic Find is actually good and I recommend to use it in some situations. I will list these situations below:
* Large scale events, such as many Cursed Shore events. This is due to them being "mass tag" events.

And thus ends that list.

-----

Why is it bad for solo play?
Simple - You're giving up offensive potential for an increased drop rate on certain items. So why is this bad in solo play?

Also simple - less kills per hour - Less kills per hour = less loot per hour. Counter-productive isn't it?

While it wastes time in solo play, it only wastes your own time, which you are, of course, entitled to.

-----

Why is it bad in group play?
This is the real issue with Magic Find and a sole reason it should not be in the game...

The person using Magic Find gear contributes the least, but get's the best reward.

Why does this make sense? A huge design flaw.

You are giving up offensive potential and wasting time. You are not only wasting your time, you are also wasting your groups. Wasting other players' time is selfish & rude. So ArenaNet promote selfish play.

-----

What can be done about it in group play?
I'm bordering into suggestions here, but I'll list a few methods to prevent selfish use of this stat:
* Allow the other player's to be aware when someone in their group is using Magic Find gear, through a visual such as a boon listing how much Magic Find they currently have.
-- While a lot of player's are against "elitism" in gear checking, as I stated earlier the person using Magic Find gear contributes the least, but get's the best reward. Nobody wants to be a losing end of that, so those players deserve to know when someone is wasting their time for a selfish gain.

* Make the entire party benefit from someone's Magic Find in the dungeon.
-- For example, there are two people in the dungeon using Magic Find, one with 36%, the other with 110%. I propose that everybody has an effective 110% Magic Find in that dungeon. This could actually make Magic Find a GOOD stat for people who are not seeking speedy dungeon, but remaining fair as the whole group is penalized speed wise, but everybody benefits in terms of loot quality.

-----

TLDR; Magic Find is bad - don't use it.

Edited by Elysen, 11 May 2013 - 12:12 AM.


#2 Bonana

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:00 AM

My biggest beef with MF is that it's allowed in dungeons. I'm okay with MF food, but if you decide to run with MF gear in a dungeon, I'll consider you a f*cking dou*hb*g! Sorry for the language~

And you're right, I don't use MF too much either. There is a small difference in drops with MF, that sometimes are barely noticeable. And what's worse is, the longer you're farming in a single location with MF, it will deplete over time. Wtf was arena-net thinking!?!? I'll tell you what, it's all a scam!

I've completely stopped using MF gear and boosters. I still however, occasionally use Omnomberry Pies. But MF is still such a waste, and needs to go.

Now, I just accept my fate with the RNG Gods~

#3 Bloggi

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:28 AM

View PostElysen, on 06 May 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

-- For example, there are two people in the dungeon using Magic Find, one with 36%, the other with 110%. I propose that everybody has an effective 110% Magic Find in that dungeon. This could actually make Magic Find a GOOD stat for people who are not seeking speedy dungeon, but remaining fair as the whole group is penalized speed wise, but everybody benefits in terms of loot quality.


A reasonable suggestion. Hence we could have even more organized dungeon farming groups.

The overriding question however is whether MF truly improves the quality of loot. Personally I have tried running with 10% MF and 0% MF (gear alone, not counting more from banners) in recent times while in solo play. No difference. Nowadays we can sometimes get a large percentage of MF from a communal bonfire. Again, it's never made a difference for me. If the whole system centered around MF is broken in the first place then we should not use it, period.

At the end of the day I suspect that RNG is what it is...random.

#4 MrIllusion

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:26 AM

Wouldn't it be better if MF was taken out of gear completely?

Leave it as it is in food, guild buffs, cash shop buffs.

Maybe have MF tie in with completion of DEs ie completion of DEs add a global MF bonus to the entire zone, so it would be in the interest of players to get as many DEs done as possible. Might even be beneficial to alts or new players who feel that they don't have enough players in the zone doing normal DEs.

#5 Dasryn

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:36 AM

to equip magic find stat, you must sacrifice other more meaningful stats that may give you an edge or at least keep you in line with players not using magic find.

that being said, essentially, because you are missing stats due to equipping magic find, the player contributing the least amount of effectiveness is getting the most reward.

seriously, thats exactly whats happening.  you sacrifice soemthing in order to equip magic find which increases your chance at finding better loot.  better reward + less effectiveness = magic find in GW2.

it is a completely broken mechanic and you are right Elysen, a lot of players are seemingly in denial.  I brought this issue up a while back and you know what people told me?

"there is nothing wrong iwth magic find, it was in Diablo II forever ago and didnt break that game"

GW2 playerbase at their best.

#6 Susanoh

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:04 AM

View PostBloggi, on 06 May 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

A reasonable suggestion. Hence we could have even more organized dungeon farming groups.

The overriding question however is whether MF truly improves the quality of loot. Personally I have tried running with 10% MF and 0% MF (gear alone, not counting more from banners) in recent times while in solo play. No difference. Nowadays we can sometimes get a large percentage of MF from a communal bonfire. Again, it's never made a difference for me. If the whole system centered around MF is broken in the first place then we should not use it, period.

At the end of the day I suspect that RNG is what it is...random.

It'd take a huge sample size plus figuring out which items are effected to determine the percentages of obtaining specific items with and without varying levels of magic find. It's not something you can just eyeball and determine it makes no difference, especially with a low amount like 10% (you can get mutliple times that just from eating a cheap food).

#7 Zeus_CM

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:43 AM

I agree with OP at all points. They should remove magic find from game and increase drops a bit to compensate.

View PostBloggi, on 06 May 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

A reasonable suggestion. Hence we could have even more organized dungeon farming groups.

The overriding question however is whether MF truly improves the quality of loot. Personally I have tried running with 10% MF and 0% MF (gear alone, not counting more from banners) in recent times while in solo play. No difference. Nowadays we can sometimes get a large percentage of MF from a communal bonfire. Again, it's never made a difference for me. If the whole system centered around MF is broken in the first place then we should not use it, period.

At the end of the day I suspect that RNG is what it is...random.

10% MF is nothing. One can reach up to 200%-250% magic find. That means if you get one rare per 100 kills, I'll get 3.

Edited by Zeus_CM, 06 May 2013 - 10:44 AM.


#8 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:45 AM

View PostElysen, on 06 May 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

The person using Magic Find gear contributes the least, but get's the best reward.

This is too simplified. Combat in GW2 isn't just about numbers, it's also about putting those numbers to work. Not only that, MF gear still comes with 2 offensive attributes and the gear actually packs a better punch than quite a bit of other gear in the game.
For MF to actually matter, we'd need to be talking about top of the line players (that includes skill, skills and gear) taking on some pretty hard content. Everywhere else, while MF certainly won't be helping, it most likely won't be the biggest issue the team will be facing.

Having said that, I think that the game would benefit greatly from a massive reduction of gear-options, and MF, while not as problematic as it's made out to be, certainly isn't bringing something to the table that would make it worth keeping.

#9 Strawberry Nubcake

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:50 AM

View PostBloggi, on 06 May 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

At the end of the day I suspect that RNG is what it is...random.
I think you hit the nail on the head.

Can we bury this dead horse next to it's cousins instead of beating it?

Edited by Strawberry Nubcake, 06 May 2013 - 11:51 AM.


#10 Sandpit

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:02 PM

Solo: magic find is very good, you can give up 10% of your offensive capability (slower kill rate) but get well over 100% extra (and better quality) drops.

Multi: I agree, in it's current form it's not right that some in a group get more rewards. I am less bothered about the contributing less thing as everyone, whatever their gear, is playing the game, every player is "working" just as hard. So to ban MF you may as well just ban necros and ranger because they are contributing less.

I really think that the best solution is that any MF on players gets spread around the party, eg: so instead of one player getting 100% MF, all 5 in the dungeon gets 20%. Bringing MF then just becomes another role in the group make-up, like bringing AOE or support, tank etc.

#11 Xunlai Agent

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:36 PM

Have it display so we know if other people are running it and make gear checks easier in general. I would love if ArenaNet had never introduced MF to our gear in the first plac, but there have been a frightening amount of poor decisions on their part when designing this game.

All that being said, the majority of people on Guru are running tank gear on every character so taking the offensive MF stuff would likely be an improvement. However in theory everything you said stands and ANet should read it sooner rather than later!

#12 Bloggi

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:31 PM

View PostDasryn, on 06 May 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

"there is nothing wrong iwth magic find, it was in Diablo II forever ago and didnt break that game"


Experience with MF with that very game should have put me off using MF of any sort for the rest of my life. I remember spending countless hours farming in D2 and loaded up with heaps of MF. It was completely useless...the most fruitless exercise I've ever done in a game. Now, years down the track, I'm almost embarrassed to admit having used my precious time to farm in a game.

MF didn't break D2. That is correct. But more to the point, MF in D2 was, in my experience at least, a broken stat that didn't actually work.

Edited by Bloggi, 06 May 2013 - 01:32 PM.


#13 Susanoh

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 07:56 AM

View PostBloggi, on 06 May 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Experience with MF with that very game should have put me off using MF of any sort for the rest of my life. I remember spending countless hours farming in D2 and loaded up with heaps of MF. It was completely useless...the most fruitless exercise I've ever done in a game. Now, years down the track, I'm almost embarrassed to admit having used my precious time to farm in a game.

MF didn't break D2. That is correct. But more to the point, MF in D2 was, in my experience at least, a broken stat that didn't actually work.

You said that about MF in this game, too. Do you have any data for either game that suggests this to be the truth.

Edit: Realized the rest of my post was the basically the same as my earlier reply. :P

Edited by Susanoh, 07 May 2013 - 08:04 AM.


#14 Bloggi

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:39 AM

View PostSusanoh, on 07 May 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

You said that about MF in this game, too. Do you have any data for either game that suggests this to be the truth.

Edit: Realized the rest of my post was the basically the same as my earlier reply. :P

I have no proof or concrete results on the effect (or lack thereof) of MF in Diablo II, other than to indicate that there is no reason for me to lie about the experience that I had with it. As truthfully as I can put it, I did use a lot of MF (no, not a paltry 10% of course, much more than that but can't remember the figures...I actually put effort into farming with MF in D2 as opposed to GW2 where I really haven't bothered) for farming runs but the MF appeared to have no effect.

To clarify, I am not suggesting that MF in either game is a broken stat (even if it might actually be). I am not professing to be knowledgeable about the matter. But my experience so far with any of this is that it just boils down to pure luck...it's just RNG.

#15 Coren

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:20 AM

As a D2 player who used a huge amount of MF too, I can say with certainty that it did help a bit. Out of maybe... 15 Mephisto runs, I'd get a unique, and often a crappy one. Which showed me what a crappy stat it was.. But felt forced to use anyway.

MF in GW2 is here to stay, but I agree it needs a radical change on how it works. To those who say that MF gear also have two offensive stats are blinded t trying to defend a selfish statistic.

Adding toughness, vitality, or hell even healing power contributes to the party, if only to keep you alive, and thus keep active party members to 5, not 4 because the 5th got taken out, because he lacked either survival, or those extra % of damage to kill a mob.

Trying to defend that MF isn't selfish is denying you're a parasite, leeching on other people's efforts. I'm not saying your presence isn't useful, but your a bigger liability than anyone else in the team.

Edited by Coren, 07 May 2013 - 09:22 AM.


#16 Susanoh

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:29 AM

View PostBloggi, on 07 May 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

I have no proof or concrete results on the effect (or lack thereof) of MF in Diablo II, other than to indicate that there is no reason for me to lie about the experience that I had with it. As truthfully as I can put it, I did use a lot of MF (no, not a paltry 10% of course, much more than that but can't remember the figures...I actually put effort into farming with MF in D2 as opposed to GW2 where I really haven't bothered) for farming runs but the MF appeared to have no effect.

To clarify, I am not suggesting that MF in either game is a broken stat (even if it might actually be). I am not professing to be knowledgeable about the matter. But my experience so far with any of this is that it just boils down to pure luck...it's just RNG.

Ahh, I see. I misunderstood where you are coming from. Thought you were trying to say magic find literally did nothing at all. That's settled then. ;)

#17 Dasryn

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:44 AM

Colin Johansen openly admitted that MF is bad and it is not being implemented as originally intended - going on to further state that it is against what GW2 stands for. - they are looking at ways to find a way to keep it in the game yet eliminate it from having to be equipped.

Case closed.

#18 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:48 AM

View PostCoren, on 07 May 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

To those who say that MF gear also have two offensive stats are blinded t trying to defend a selfish statistic.

Adding toughness, vitality, or hell even healing power contributes to the party, if only to keep you alive, and thus keep active party members to 5, not 4 because the 5th got taken out, because he lacked either survival, or those extra % of damage to kill a mob.

Trying to defend that MF isn't selfish is denying you're a parasite, leeching on other people's efforts. I'm not saying your presence isn't useful, but your a bigger liability than anyone else in the team.

So a guy being shit (which is the reason why the person would need those defensive stats (in this specific case)) is absolutely acceptable, but a guy WILLINGLY playing on the exact same level as the absolutely acceptable shit player, is always a burden?
If we are talking about efficiency, then I don't want to see certain gear (and not just MF gear), I don't want to see certain certain weapon/skills/traits, hell, I don't even want to see certain classes in my team.

#19 Dasryn

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:57 AM

View PostRitualist, on 07 May 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

So a guy being shit (which is the reason why the person would need those defensive stats (in this specific case)) is absolutely acceptable, but a guy WILLINGLY playing on the exact same level as the absolutely acceptable shit player, is always a burden?
If we are talking about efficiency, then I don't want to see certain gear (and not just MF gear), I don't want to see certain certain weapon/skills/traits, hell, I don't even want to see certain classes in my team.

there are two sides to this argument.

both are good.

1) MF statted equipment should be acceptable as long as the player skill makes up for it.  a great player need not bother with the best of best stats because all content is doable with considerably less than the 'best' gear in the game.

and

2) MF forces players to sacrifice meaningful stats and could possibly hinder progress

either way - Colin Johansen doesnt like the way it is now - and it will be changed.

#20 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:43 AM

View PostDasryn, on 07 May 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

there are two sides to this argument.

both are good.

1) MF statted equipment should be acceptable as long as the player skill makes up for it.  a great player need not bother with the best of best stats because all content is doable with considerably less than the 'best' gear in the game.

and

2) MF forces players to sacrifice meaningful stats and could possibly hinder progress

either way - Colin Johansen doesnt like the way it is now - and it will be changed.

I am not bothered by the hate MF gets, honestly, it deserves it: in most cases, berserker's is simply better. And in the few remaining cases, some other set is better.
What I am bothered by is the special hate reserved for MF gear: MF isn't bad because it's MF, MF is bad because there is better gear available in the game. And the problem is that this argument, that there's something better, applies to almost every armour in the game. Not only that, it also applies to weapons and it also applies to classes: if a guy would bitch that he doesn't want a guy with MF gear in his party, then I'd say that I don't want necros and ranger or warriors that aren't 20/25/0/10/15.

MF isn't bad because it's MF. MF is bad because it falls into a HUGE group of things in this game that are simply sub-par. Honestly, the game would probably be better off if people would bitch about how good berserker's is rather than bitch about how bad MF is.

#21 Dasryn

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:53 AM

View PostRitualist, on 07 May 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

I am not bothered by the hate MF gets, honestly, it deserves it: in most cases, berserker's is simply better. And in the few remaining cases, some other set is better.
What I am bothered by is the special hate reserved for MF gear: MF isn't bad because it's MF, MF is bad because there is better gear available in the game. And the problem is that this argument, that there's something better, applies to almost every armour in the game. Not only that, it also applies to weapons and it also applies to classes: if a guy would bitch that he doesn't want a guy with MF gear in his party, then I'd say that I don't want necros and ranger or warriors that aren't 20/25/0/10/15.

MF isn't bad because it's MF. MF is bad because it falls into a HUGE group of things in this game that are simply sub-par. Honestly, the game would probably be better off if people would bitch about how good berserker's is rather than bitch about how bad MF is.

i see your argument - you feel like MF hate is held at a double standard.

the thing is, as far as necros and rangers go, thats a bit unfair as you are basically saying that the playerbase cant play those professions and then you will see nothing but the same classes.

i think MF hate is unique in the sense that it is driven by an inherent selfishness.  you want a better than average chance at getting loot.

in the case of subpar professions or a warrior with a different build, thats not the same selfishness, its a warrior trying something different and people wanting to play professions the game offers.

#22 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:04 AM

View PostDasryn, on 07 May 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

i see your argument - you feel like MF hate is held at a double standard.

the thing is, as far as necros and rangers go, thats a bit unfair as you are basically saying that the playerbase cant play those professions and then you will see nothing but the same classes.

i think MF hate is unique in the sense that it is driven by an inherent selfishness.  you want a better than average chance at getting loot.

in the case of subpar professions or a warrior with a different build, thats not the same selfishness, its a warrior trying something different and people wanting to play professions the game offers.

Read though the opening post again and replace MF with "ranger". The new post will basically be factually correct.
Objectively sub-par options are objectively sub-par. May it be MF or rangers.



Slightly off, but I found it to be fairly interesting, especially since it tackles something mentioned above:
http://www.reddit.co...ns_of_a_botter/
A botter sharing his experience, saying that MF seems to be work nicely.

#23 ObscureThreat

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:35 AM

MF is not just bad because it sacrifices a stat, but that you are getting a better reward than others for the same amount of work. People feel jealous and why wouldn't they. If you are contributing the same to the party in terms of damage/support but because the other guy is getting better rewards due to MF, no wonder people don't like it. The problem with MF is not in solo play but only in group play. In solo play if you feel like gimping yourself in terms of kill speed go ahead, its no ones problem but your own.

#24 purper dawn

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:51 AM

u cant blame ppl for using MF when drops are this bad. simple as that.

#25 Dasryn

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:07 PM

View Postpurper dawn, on 07 May 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

u cant blame ppl for using MF when drops are this bad. simple as that.

actually ive noticed drops to be better.  i only get to play GW2 3 days a week but it totals to around 30 hours a week and the first night i played i got venomstriker drop from a vet golem in SE (lvl 80 exo pistol) and then i ran the harathi hinterlands DE and got literally 4 rares out of the chest, then i was out in bloodtide coast and got a rare greatsword.

i mean, it was a noticeable difference and i have never used MF in my entire 600 hours of playing GW2.

i think the drop rates have been tweaked.

#26 Snapalope

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:18 PM

As long as Arenanet acknowledge that magic find is bad I'm fine with this.  Magic find hurting dungeon groups have been discussed to death and it's proven every time.  I have no idea why people still deny this.  If I catch anyone, guild members included, using magic find armor or weapons, I outright just kick them from the party.

Edited by Snapalope, 07 May 2013 - 12:19 PM.


#27 rukia

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:49 PM

Surprised you didn't link your own post - https://forum-en.gui...on-t-like/first


Quote

Some fun ideas in here, we're also actively discussing ways on how we'd best like to alleviate having to make players choose between having better stats, or using magic find. It's not a choice that's great for game play and there isn't really anything that fun about it, even more so when group composition is taken into account. Ideally we'd also like to keep the ability to slowly build your magic find over time, but doing this at the cost of using better stats isn't the right way to do that.

No ETA on any changes here, just want to point out we agree there is an issue here that goes against what we want Gw2 to be, and is something we want to address.

Colin's reply.

They agree MF was implemented terribly.

#28 AKGeo

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:36 AM

View PostDasryn, on 07 May 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

actually ive noticed drops to be better.  i only get to play GW2 3 days a week but it totals to around 30 hours a week and the first night i played i got venomstriker drop from a vet golem in SE (lvl 80 exo pistol) and then i ran the harathi hinterlands DE and got literally 4 rares out of the chest, then i was out in bloodtide coast and got a rare greatsword.

i mean, it was a noticeable difference and i have never used MF in my entire 600 hours of playing GW2.

i think the drop rates have been tweaked.

Or you're an example of random statistics.

MF doesn't affect chests, so the four rares from your harathi experience are beside the point. That leaves one exotic and one rare. You're not mentioning at all what MF truly excels at: fine crafting materials. And that's probably because the areas you're killing things in aren't going to drop the only materials of note: T6. Not to mention you haven't given ANY statistics on the number of things you killed along the way.

For the OP, and I know it's been discussed, but it's a very valid point and it's the only thing worth saying: Anyone running a less efficient build, whether it's MF or heal power or high condition damage with only burning being applied, is going to decrease the efficiency of the killing. But you're probably talking seconds per encounter. SECONDS. If that time is that worth it to you, vet your players and make sure nobody's running it. Let other people play the GAME they bought the way they want. I'd say stop treating it like it's a job, but that'll probably fall on deaf ears. Once you let a video game become serious enough that you're genuinely upset at someone being a little less efficient at it for whatever reason, you're lost.

For snapalope: If you're in a pug, you should accept that you're going to get subpar players with subpar builds. If you kick guildies for running anything with MF, you're a bad guildie. I literally take level 30 guildies with blues into this new molten dungeon, no problem. I take level 45's without ideal skills unlocked, with masterwork, into CM story and explorable. I'm confident enough in my skills and leadership to make it a successful run, no matter how much longer it takes than you. It's not a race. I don't give a good goddamn if they're running magic find...they want to have fun playing and so do I. Overcoming a challenge presented by having a less-than-ideal group is fun. Steamrolling a dungeon over and over and over again is grind. Why even bother? Some people...sigh.

Edited by AKGeo, 08 May 2013 - 08:43 AM.


#29 Mordakai

Mordakai

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:42 PM

Obvious solution is to replace Explorer with Sentinel.....  right?

#30 AKGeo

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:50 PM

Ok so...I have  a comparison here. Someone running Knight's gear (vs someone running Explorer gear). The difference is a little precision and a lot of toughness. The guy with knight's gear never gets hit...he's running subpar gear because he should be running berserker, right? Kick him! He's hurting the team!!!!

Exact same argument.

Let people get their drops. The more high end drops they get, the lower the prices are for everyone else. It doesn't affect you otherwise.

Edited by AKGeo, 08 May 2013 - 05:51 PM.





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