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Don't flame negative predictions/discussion of GW2 so quickly


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#1 dirkaderpa

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:38 PM

The title is such b/c I thought it less argumentative than "my victory lap over the GW2 community". I was basically right about all my predictions for GW2 widely derided as "trolling" in these forums, which helps us all remember that the best argument might not be the one that we like to hear, listen to the voice of reason over fanboyism.

I said the game's population would crash if there was no endgame progression, and lo and behold, Anet added in endgame progression, which was ferociously attacked by the casuals, and now they don't plan to add any more in for 2013. The game is still fine for casuals, there's still plenty for them to do and the living story is paced so that it gives them enough time to do it. But this game is not for hardcore players, as the non altaholics just log in for a week to finish the new living story chapter and go back to a game with more lasting appeal. Catering to extreme casuals and hardcore players is a thin rope and Anet has never fallen off of it in favor of hardcore mmo players.

I said sPvP seemed like an afterthought given how much time, dedication, and money they poured over PvE, and months after launch sPvP is more of a ghost town than PvE with esports interest in it no where in sight.

So what's my point? Is that there are very negative things that could be on the way for GW2, which can be seen and avoided if you listen and follow logic. As an established oracle or yore (kidding), here's what I think is on the way for GW2: If Anet doesn't add any more endgame content, which I don't think they have plans to do and are rather focused on their living story which has been a poor replacement for real endgame content, the PvE scene will continue to decline, and the idea that PvP is the endgame similar to the first Guild Wars will be reinforced since there is apparently an sPvP overhaul on its way. For a non sub game, having PvP be the endgame just makes sense, since it doesn't require Anet to keep adding new content for it.

Though sPvP being any GOOD will take a lot of work, since there's a lot of competition to GW2's PvP, which was maybe a surprise to Anet. WvW will probably just stagnate, WvW has already found its niche and there will probably be momentary spikes in its playerbase if there ever are major balance patches aimed at WvW play, but I don't see any long term increase in WvW players unless they add more rewards for ranking well in WvW, making it more desirable to be the tier 1 server.

Flame on.

Edited by dirkaderpa, 08 May 2013 - 08:27 PM.


#2 Mordakai

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:56 PM

You have any proof that the population has crashed?

Personally, I would wait until GW2 dies before declaring "victory."


And before I get accused of trolling/flaming, please help me understand what the point of this thread is:  A demand for more end-game content?  That, by itself, is not controversial.

So please, oh oracle of the future, tell ArenaNet what they need to do so they won't fail.  Maybe they will hire you for your incredible ideas!


Edited by Mordakai, 08 May 2013 - 07:02 PM.


#3 dimiguel

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:21 PM

View PostMordakai, on 08 May 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

You have any proof that the population has crashed?

Personally, I would wait until GW2 dies before declaring "victory."


And before I get accused of trolling/flaming, please help me understand what the point of this thread is:  A demand for more end-game content?  That, by itself, is not controversial.

So please, oh oracle of the future, tell ArenaNet what they need to do so they won't fail.  Maybe they will hire you for your incredible ideas!

People need to take off their rose-colored glasses and look at the problems that Guild Wars 2 still has from launch. I have made myself vocal to many of these problems, but I am usually largely flamed and ignored sans one forum post that many people applauded. The problems are simply so deep in the game design that in order to fix the game you'd have to call it Guild Wars 3.

What OP says is true: Guild Wars 2 is the biggest casualfest I have ever seen.

A little story: I have over 2k hours in the original Guild Wars and my friends, guild and I all played Guild Wars since vanilla. Although we were younger and had more time to play it, our mindsets towards games has not changed much. When we heard about Guild Wars 2, we were extremely excited but became more and more skeptical as more information about the game was released. Lo and behold, ALL OF US preordered Guild Wars 2 anyways to support ArenaNet and gain access to the beta weekend events.

When Guild Wars 2 came out, the promise was great although the game was largely unfinished. The leveling experience was amazing and all of us could not wait to get to end game and see what kind of unique challenges we had waiting for us. After we hit 80, everything went downhill. Everyone I knew quit the game within a month of dinging 80. It was simply the biggest borefest we have ever played.

It's been nine months from launch, and ArenaNet seems as lost as ever with their game. It's almost as if Guild Wars 2 is the jack of all trades, master of none. I log in for five minutes every so often to check out the game but it's so goddamn boring I don't even bother to stay and do any of the content. Nothing in the game caters to players who wants to be invested for more than a few hours. It's almost as if everything is spoonfed to you.

Guild Wars 2 is, and will always be, for me the game that could have been. All I wanted was Guild Wars in a persistent world. The dynamic quests are a radical innovation, as well as weapon based combat, but everything else is a gimmick. World bosses are a gimmick. Dodging is a gimmick (don't even get me started on dodging and how every ♥♥♥♥ing game has dodging now). Story mode dungeons are a poorly designed gimmick. Magic find is a gimmick. SPVP is a joke. The game simply does so much wrong that I can't ever see myself returning to the Guild Wars world again. It really is a shame, Guild Wars was my favorite RPG ever. It just did so many things right that it makes me wonder, WHY CHANGE IT?!

Unless ArenaNet pulls something out of their ass, people will abandon this game.

#4 Strawberry Nubcake

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:41 PM

A wild Special Snowflake appeared!

We get it.  The game has issues and you think it's dying.  This is the same exact crap that other disgruntled players have been saying but in slightly different words.

#5 Darkobra

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:44 PM

I remember a lot of people saying exactly what you said. None of THEM backed it up, either.

Why did this need its own thread?

#6 Jetjordan

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:44 PM

Ah yes, the "I am right because the things I didn't think I would like about the game I in fact don't like" thread.

It's weird though, the things I thought I would like about the game I do in fact like and I don't see myself abandoning it anytime soon.  There are plenty of areas that need work, pvp balancing is one for sure, but they've wisely separated skills now like Gw1 did.  I really do feel like they are trying to improve the game and have since release.  Even though all of the problems are not fixed, I'm not ready to give up on the game.  I think its hard to compare this game to gw1 when they had such a long time to polish gw1.  They really took more chances with this game than they did with gw1, which I appreciate.

I still don't get the OMG change or everyone will quit routine.  Pretty sure revenues are up and they aren't closing/merging servers yet, which is better than most games.  the good news for everyone that just wants to play gw1 is that it didn't shut down when Gw2 started.  I think if you feel this way right now you might should try walking away for a while and coming back later when more content arrives.  IMO this games has WAY more to do endgame than Gw1 vanilla did (and I LOVED gw1 vanilla)

#7 Mordakai

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:49 PM

Still waiting to hear some ideas of what should be done right now to save Guild Wars 2...


#8 El Duderino

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:14 PM

View PostMordakai, on 08 May 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Still waiting to hear some ideas of what should be done right now to save Guild Wars 2...
  • Start adding permanent content in the themepark MMO which GW2 is, so PvE players have something to do.
  • Add extra maps in WvW and actually do something to limit the zerg mentality.
  • Create new objectives for sPvP
  • Attempt to balance skills and classes that allow for better teamwork oriented combat and gameplay
  • Fix the loot drops in this game so people don't have to rely purely on RNG or grinding dungeons or paying for gems
Any one of these things would be a HUGE step in the right direction for TONS of players. These are all things that aren't just about expansions and new free content - they are things that will add polish to a largely unpolished game.

#9 Xunlai Agent

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:16 PM

View PostMordakai, on 08 May 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Still waiting to hear some ideas of what should be done right now to save Guild Wars 2...
You have clearly never visited the official forums or read some of the top posters on there (like Ensign who has more credibility than every single one of the cheerleaders on Guru combined). Maybe you might wish to browse hundreds of threads and many more which have been locked making suggestions, listing the endless bugs, exploring new ideas, and attempting to help ANet develop Guild Wars 2. I can send you the link by pm if you need.

#10 Mordakai

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:21 PM

That's great, but then what's the point of THIS thread?  Just another bitch and moan session for people with nothing better to do than say "I told you so?"

#11 El Duderino

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:22 PM

View PostMordakai, on 08 May 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

That's great, but then what's the point of THIS thread?  Just another bitch and moan session for people with nothing better to do than say "I told you so?"

I don't disagree with this at all. While I am certainly amused by the thread, it has nothing to back it up and offers very little other than "I told you so."

#12 Slykin

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:27 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 08 May 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

  • Start adding permanent content in the themepark MMO which GW2 is, so PvE players have something to do.
  • Add extra maps in WvW and actually do something to limit the zerg mentality.
  • Create new objectives for sPvP
  • Attempt to balance skills and classes that allow for better teamwork oriented combat and gameplay
  • Fix the loot drops in this game so people don't have to rely purely on RNG or grinding dungeons or paying for gems
Any one of these things would be a HUGE step in the right direction for TONS of players. These are all things that aren't just about expansions and new free content - they are things that will add polish to a largely unpolished game.


^^^^ All of this!

The best part though is when you bring up these issues and criticism on the official guild wars 2 forums, your comments are deleted and your account is banned. Love how much Anet loves to hear our feedback on improving the game <3

#13 Mordakai

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:29 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 08 May 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:


  • Start adding permanent content in the themepark MMO which GW2 is, so PvE players have something to do.
  • Add extra maps in WvW and actually do something to limit the zerg mentality.
  • Create new objectives for sPvP
  • Attempt to balance skills and classes that allow for better teamwork oriented combat and gameplay
  • Fix the loot drops in this game so people don't have to rely purely on RNG or grinding dungeons or paying for gems
Any one of these things would be a HUGE step in the right direction for TONS of players. These are all things that aren't just about expansions and new free content - they are things that will add polish to a largely unpolished game.


Actually agree with this as well, thanks!

View PostSlykin, on 08 May 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:




^^^^ All of this!

The best part though is when you bring up these issues and criticism on the official guild wars 2 forums, your comments are deleted and your account is banned. Love how much Anet loves to hear our feedback on improving the game <3

Proof of that?   I admit, I don't visit the official forums often...

#14 Slykin

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:31 PM

View PostMordakai, on 08 May 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

Actually agree with this as well, thanks!



Proof of that?   I admit, I don't visit the official forums often...

I have seen screenshots of people with their comments posted and then screenshots of the comments gone like 2 min after the post. I wish I saved them. But the official forums are seriously just a circlejerk of casuals that love every aspect of the game....you will see in half of the posts these people are like bowing to the Devs. It's horrid.

#15 Mordakai

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:35 PM

View PostSlykin, on 08 May 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:



I have seen screenshots of people with their comments posted and then screenshots of the comments gone like 2 min after the post. I wish I saved them. But the official forums are seriously just a circlejerk of casuals that love every aspect of the game....you will see in half of the posts these people are like bowing to the Devs. It's horrid.

Well, I just looked, found many suggestion threads, including one for Guild Halls.

So either the mods are getting lazy, or those threads you mentioned were not as constructive as they could have been?

#16 El Duderino

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:35 PM

View PostMordakai, on 08 May 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

Proof of that?   I admit, I don't visit the official forums often...

I'm not sure if you would take my word for it, but I am banned from the forums and, if I could still access my messages, could show you fairly innocent threads about things I think are problems with the game that were deleted for criticizing the game. It is heavily moderated, and that fact alone makes it impossible for anyone who doesn't watch the forums to not see what goes on.

#17 Slykin

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:38 PM

It's astonishing how Anet treats the playerbase. I am disgusted with how they only filter and read positive comments. You have all these people with good constructive criticism yet Anet doesn't want to hear it.

#18 Juanele

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:41 PM

View PostSlykin, on 08 May 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

I have seen screenshots of people with their comments posted and then screenshots of the comments gone like 2 min after the post. I wish I saved them. But the official forums are seriously just a circlejerk of casuals that love every aspect of the game....you will see in half of the posts these people are like bowing to the Devs. It's horrid.

I see both ends of the spectrum on the official forums. I don't see much middle ground there though, it's either great or terrible from the posters there.

#19 Xunlai Agent

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:48 PM

Anet has proactively banned people for being overly critical. It makes sense from the focus on casuals who might browse the forum before purchasing the game, if they see all the complaints then they might not buy Guild Wars 2 so you often see legitimate complaints leading to bans or suspensions. Again, I would prefer if they entertained the critics to a reasonable degree and I would prefer if the community managers actually spoke with the community. Your response was to claim that I was hurt how that they haven't visited Guru in a while or something along those lines. A wonderful strawman that ignores the fact that Regina isn't doing her job properly. But clearly standards differ on what people expect for their purchase...

#20 MazingerZ

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:54 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 08 May 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

  • Start adding permanent content in the themepark MMO which GW2 is, so PvE players have something to do.
  • Add extra maps in WvW and actually do something to limit the zerg mentality.
  • Create new objectives for sPvP
  • Attempt to balance skills and classes that allow for better teamwork oriented combat and gameplay
  • Fix the loot drops in this game so people don't have to rely purely on RNG or grinding dungeons or paying for gems
Any one of these things would be a HUGE step in the right direction for TONS of players. These are all things that aren't just about expansions and new free content - they are things that will add polish to a largely unpolished game.

The problem is monetization.  All of this is development work that does not directly translate into revenue for the game.  So long as ArenaNet is seeing profits from its gem store that satisfies NCSoft's quota for revenue, month to month, they have every reason to hold back on QOL improvements to the game and focus their development energies towards generating new cash shop.

With the exception of sPvP as an eSport (for obvious investment risk reasons from the professional crowd) there is no such thing as 'too late' for ArenaNet in these instances, because unlike a subscription game, there is no additional cost considerations to picking Guild Wars 2 back up, versus another subscription game that you might be heavily invested in and might be pleasing you more than you have felt burned by Guild Wars 2 in the past.  So they'll release QOL improvements as "faith renewers" to the people who've been trickling out, to bring them back to the fold and to increase their POTENTIAL GEM CUSTOMER base.

Any of the items listed above are loss leaders, work done for free with no direct return on investment, designed to stimulate the player-base and get people to pay attention to the game when they're releasing new gem store content.

Edited by MazingerZ, 08 May 2013 - 08:55 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#21 Slykin

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:01 PM

Creating an MMO that is based around casuals...this was the first major flaw.

#22 Mordakai

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:06 PM

View PostSlykin, on 08 May 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

Creating an MMO that is based around casuals...this was the first major flaw.

As a "casual", gotta disagree.

1.  There is obviously a market.

2.  We are the optimum player:  less time online,  same buying power.


And, because I have not played more than a couple hundred hours, I am still optimistic.  Call me 6 months from now, and I may have changed my mind.  :)

#23 Juanele

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:06 PM

View PostSlykin, on 08 May 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

Creating an MMO that is based around casuals...this was the first major flaw.

seemed to work for WoW

#24 Slykin

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:13 PM

View PostJuanele, on 08 May 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

seemed to work for WoW

WoW was not casual. If you see it as casual your definition of the word is skewed.


View PostMordakai, on 08 May 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

As a "casual", gotta disagree.

1.  There is obviously a market.

2.  We are the optimum player:  less time online,  same buying power.


And, because I have not played more than a couple hundred hours, I am still optimistic.  Call me 6 months from now, and I may have changed my mind.  :)

The point I was implying is that unlike endgame of guild wars 1, guild wars 2 endgame is geared toward people who don't want to spend more than a few hours a week playing the game. In guild wars 1 I would be doing SCs all the time and loved it. Now I am left with these rather uninviting dungeons that aren't as rewarding as they should be (not to mention the time limit on whether you can get gear so people can't grind for it efficiently).

#25 El Duderino

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:20 PM

View PostSlykin, on 08 May 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

Creating an MMO that is based around casuals...this was the first major flaw.

Honestly, there are so many definitions of what a casual player is - I would be willing to bet we all have different ones in mind. Not to mention that I would be willing to bet that most people don't see themselves as a hardcore player.

However, I also agree that making an MMO around casual play probably isn't the greatest idea, not because it is a bad market to attract, but because you end up pigeon-holing yourself into developing for stereotypes that may or may not exist because, as I said before, the definition is probably way too broad to account for everyone that is in some way or another - casual.

For example, a lot of great things got thrown out the window from GW1 that could have been toned down a bit for GW2 to make it work better, but instead got nerfed into oblivion. I don't care what anyone says, but combat in this game is a great example. Ensign himself said the complexity of combat in GW1 needed to get toned down, but instead of getting toned down, it pretty much got abolished. I mean, at what point does a development team look at the casual stereotype and assume they want dumbed down uninteresting team combat?

#26 derkol

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:28 PM

I'm gonna say what i say to most of me friends that i used to play Guild wars 2 with before they left. Baring in mind they put alot of time grinding for what they want and what they wanted to achieve from this game. The game is in its first year and if your spending so many hours playing it day by day or maybe every few days you're gonna burn yourself out from the game. You're gonna get bored doing the same dungeons, same fractals, same dragon fights ect. Same goes with farming hours on end to achieve that nice skin you want or that armour set you really like. It's probably the main cause of why everybody is going "Ah i'm bored of this game. Theres no end content. Once you do story there's like nothing left to do".

I've been playing GW2 since release and i'm not yet bored of it and currently working on a legendary. I have had occasions on grinding for cash for armour ect but not to the point where i can no longer want to do it. Space out what you do, don't spend hours and hours a day playing something you enjoy to something you can no longer play because theirs "Nothing to do". I don't play for more then 4 hours a day, I do my daily, chat to friends/guild, Do a couple of dungeon runs, maybe kill the dragons and work on explore. Sometimes i wont even do that i'll just log on and do Spvp for a few hours or WvW(Active server with constant WvW zergs). Not only that but Anet are adding content to keep players going I.e Southsun, Flame and frost. Their taking there time but atleast they are doing something unlike Guild wars 1 where you had the game, you did the missions, you did Underworld (Aka tombs) and then you waited about a year for a new content came out (Guild wars factions)

#27 Juanele

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:30 PM

View PostSlykin, on 08 May 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

WoW was not casual. If you see it as casual your definition of the word is skewed.

It's pretty darn casual. There is a hardcore element to it but the majority of that playerbase is casual (depending on your definition).

I, for one, am pretty darn happy that GW2 is a casual based game. If it wasn't then I wouldn't be playing it and a whole lot of others wouldn't either. Other than "whales", casual players is what makes the game money. If I wanted a hardcore game I would have stuck with Age of Conan.

#28 Azure Skye

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:46 PM

View PostMordakai, on 08 May 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Well, I just looked, found many suggestion threads, including one for Guild Halls.

So either the mods are getting lazy, or those threads you mentioned were not as constructive as they could have been?
Don't forget about yell at Anet on how worthless they are on creating a game, from a small snippet of what they don't like without constructive criticism. People don't flesh out their constructive criticism, just jabs and low blows to the stomach. Don't brate them like little kids.

Like this post on official forums. I dont use the official forum at all, so i dont know.  

http://www.guildwars...tance-arenanet/

https://forum-en.gui...rst#post1956672

#29 Khalija

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:46 PM

I'm not exactly sure we need a new thread that starts out with a big ol' condescending "I told you so" attitude, insults included. I'm all for a thread with people discussing the stuff that has been brought up in this thread, but I am pretty sure we already have plenty of those.

Locking.

Feel free to PM me if you have a question regarding moderation, want to leave some feedback, or just want to chat!





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