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Why hasn't Anet addressed the current zerker or gtfo pve endgame?

holy trinity bam

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#1 Rhomulos

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 11:27 AM

The current optimal group layout only favors teams that stack full berserker armor and faceroll DPS through everything while simply learning what and when to dodge.  Most classes are pointless in groups when you have things like mesmers and guardians putting up reflections and other classes like warriors, among others, just DPSDPSDPS everything to death.  

Dodging mitigates far too many sources of damage, reflections are far too powerful against PvE mobs, and as mobs don't coordinate their abilities or assist each other we can always have our way with them.  I hate to compare to gw1, but it atleast made you feel like you were fighting a group composition when fighting groups in Hard Mode (when you weren't running an afk faceroll Hero set up, and playing regularly).  Conditions and hexes were cleansed, melee mobs had either powerful AoE or CC that gave backliners trouble, positioning meant a whole lot more.  

Right now, it's simply stack in the corner so mobs line of sight, then just dodge into the wall to avoid the damage while keeping everything balled up for ez AoE or blind fields.  I have to say that it just isn't that fun.  It's hard to give a build personality when it won't be effective in any PvE unless i'ts maxing DPS and 100% damage mitigations through traits and skills.



MOD EDIT: Merged in another thread. That thread's OP and the video about this discussion can be found here.
http://www.guildwars...10#entry2207054

Edited by Feathermoore, 28 May 2013 - 06:46 PM.


#2 chullster

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 11:30 AM

Because I doubt it's costing them any money, for now.

Trying to think of a way to fix it? I can't, it seems to be too embedded in the game now.

So far in PvE:
DPS is everything
Healing is useless
CC is mostly useless
condition damage is useless
pets/minions pretty useless
hardly any interupts/shutdowns so mesmers are for gimicks and rangers are ultra useless

Good luck with that anet......

Edited by chullster, 10 May 2013 - 11:34 AM.


#3 zwei2stein

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 11:50 AM

View Postchullster, on 10 May 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Because I doubt it's costing them any money, for now.

Trying to think of a way to fix it? I can't, it seems to be too embedded in the game now.

So far in PvE:
DPS is everything
Healing is useless
CC is mostly useless
condition damage is useless
pets/minions pretty useless
hardly any interupts/shutdowns so mesmers are for gimicks and rangers are ultra useless

Good luck with that anet......

When and Where in PVE was DPS not everything?
.
Once players figure out encounter, they will always end up maximizing direct DPS in favor of utility or DOTs. This is game-agnostic problem.

Only GW2 unique shade is the fact that in fractals, there comes moment when using healing, vitality or toughness is pointless because failed dodge at boss will down you regardless of how much you have stacked.

#4 Butcher

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 11:52 AM

I don't think there's ever been a time where group positioning has been important. I can't even think of a time when composition has even been important either. It's pretty much "LF3M 2 Warr 1 Guardian". I guess I'm lucky, because I decided to play a warrior not knowing it's one of the most valued professions in PvE.

The problem here (imo) is that none of the bosses require players to work together. They just require players to work as a mob of idiots AoEing the boss down. If bosses in the game required players to use combo fields in order to trigger phases, or hurt the boss, it would make players think twice. If certain dungeons required -say a mesmer- in order to get to a secret dungeon area (via portal), then it would make professions feel more needed.

It's really a shame that every dungeon is pretty much "stack a stat, grab 4 more dumbasses, and zerg this crap". But that's what we got when ANet promised a casual experience. It's not stopping me from having fun, though.

#5 FoxBat

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 11:59 AM

They made this pretty clear in the year-plan. Casual daily open world grind is their focus. Dungeons they can't even be bothered to "overhaul" like they suggested, if you can call fighting the howling king on the stairs an "overhaul." This is not Vanilla WoW where everything pointed towards raids. Dungeons are just a bone thrown at a specific kind of player, but with not nearly enough attention to make them a robust experience.

This attitude towards "hardcore" PvE content really shouldn't surprise anyone considering this is the company that gave us Shadow Form. Though I have to say I'd take the GW2 meta over actual optimal GW1 dungeon builds, at least you have to worry about responding to big boss attacks rather than holding down the "I win" button.

#6 Rhomulos

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:05 PM

View Postzwei2stein, on 10 May 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

When and Where in PVE was DPS not everything?
.
Once players figure out encounter, they will always end up maximizing direct DPS in favor of utility or DOTs. This is game-agnostic problem.

Only GW2 unique shade is the fact that in fractals, there comes moment when using healing, vitality or toughness is pointless because failed dodge at boss will down you regardless of how much you have stacked.

the main difference is that there isn't a trinity, so people don't have an option at all when it comes to pve.  it's just dpsdpsdps, don't want to DPS? too bad.  Class doesn't do a ton of DPS, and you aren't having fun because you can't push out numbers like a warrior or thief?  lol too bad, reroll.  

Atleast in other games, I could choose to be a tank or healer and feel useful, now it's just relfections and DPS rotations left to us.  

If Anet pulls it together with a huge PvE update, or even in an expansion, saying 'k, pve rework.  you bungholes are gonna get your panties stuffed since you cried about how ez everything was'  and then give everything near-impossible to avoid damage and maybe even make certain areas of leveling zones too difficult for the 1 hour-a-day casual player.  

Even separate Hard Mode zones/dungeon paths.. just as long as these stats and portions of the game are put to use and we get diversity in play style.

#7 Dasryn

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:15 PM

im loving how this is all of a sudden an issue.

and yes it is all of a sudden an issue.  i've seen probably 4 threads in the last week pertaining to this "meta".

i brought this up about 3 months ago and i was told there is nothing wrong with the game.

i went about it in the "they eliminated trinity so that dumbed down the game to everything dps" and i was met with quite a bit of rejection from this very community.

so you dont want trinity, you dont want all dps action oriented combat

what is it that you all really want?  i mean, the above posters are 100% correct in their assessment of the situation especially this:

View PostFoxBat, on 10 May 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

They made this pretty clear in the year-plan. Casual daily open world grind is their focus. Dungeons they can't even be bothered to "overhaul" like they suggested, if you can call fighting the howling king on the stairs an "overhaul." This is not Vanilla WoW where everything pointed towards raids. Dungeons are just a bone thrown at a specific kind of player, but with not nearly enough attention to make them a robust experience.

so what do you people want?  this is turning into a damned if you do, damned if you dont on ANet's part because of the increasingly demanding and whiny player base.

Edited by Dasryn, 10 May 2013 - 12:16 PM.


#8 Rhomulos

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:35 PM

View PostDasryn, on 10 May 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

im loving how this is all of a sudden an issue.

and yes it is all of a sudden an issue.  i've seen probably 4 threads in the last week pertaining to this "meta".

i brought this up about 3 months ago and i was told there is nothing wrong with the game.

i went about it in the "they eliminated trinity so that dumbed down the game to everything dps" and i was met with quite a bit of rejection from this very community.

so you dont want trinity, you dont want all dps action oriented combat

what is it that you all really want?  i mean, the above posters are 100% correct in their assessment of the situation especially this:


so what do you people want?  this is turning into a damned if you do, damned if you dont on ANet's part because of the increasingly demanding and whiny player base.

They can start by giving mobs real AI to react to player's defensive skills, and offensive playstyles.  Reducing some of the ridiculous mob HPs, moving away the 'more mobs = more difficult' mindset, and balance out healing and DPS numbers so we see more use for it later.  

We move out of AoE fields, mobs should too.  Thus giving control a role.
Backliners kite melee mobs, backline mobs should too.
We have heals, and we're usually ♥♥♥♥ed if they get interrupted.. mobs should have a similar style.  
We anticipate attacks and dodge them.. some mobs do actually dodge.  But the rest..?  Too lazy maybe?
etc etc..

Mobs should be programmed to do more than just hit us with damage and facetank everything we do to them.. that's not very immersive at all.  I want to do more than just watch for a tiny animation for an attack so I can dodge/block/blind.  Imagine a world where we had to interrupt mobs before they healed themselves or did a huge support skill..  

Even add types of mobs that can stomp downed players, just like in pvp.  This would bring a lot more to the playing field than simply DPSing mobs so they rally or healing a teammate through mob DPS.  

Right now all mobs to me are just 'annoying enemy, very annoying enemy, and dodge-2s-after-aggro enemy'

Edited by Rhomulos, 10 May 2013 - 12:37 PM.


#9 The Naked Necro

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:37 PM

I play a necro. Do I REALLY need to say anything else?

#10 El Duderino

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:34 PM

View PostDasryn, on 10 May 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

im loving how this is all of a sudden an issue.

and yes it is all of a sudden an issue.  i've seen probably 4 threads in the last week pertaining to this "meta".

i brought this up about 3 months ago and i was told there is nothing wrong with the game.

You brought this up 3 months ago and pinned it on the players. You can't change player behavior without changing the game - so it is a developer problem. Sorry, but while you had the right idea that it is a problem, your insistence that the players need to change their behavior is not realistic or even the problem.

The problem is that this game is made largely for solo play. As such, every class must be able to survive on their own. Which means that in their limited skill bar, most of the skills are related to DPS and self healing. There isn't even enough space to add things that make teamwork and other interesting gameplay viable without nerfing the ability for each class to go through their personal story and open world solo.

Of course, it doesn't help that balance is so screwed up that things like conditions don't even work as well as straight up DPS.

If you step back and take a look at what ANet was trying to do, which is create a game without the negative effects of the trinity, they did a lousy job. Mostly because they fell into the same class stereotypes that are in trinity games, and kind of rely on the trinity. Why, for example, would you roll a class with a lower armor rating and DPS than a warrior for PvE except to take advantage of a couple of really great utility skills such as the mesmer has? There is no real reason as it relates to effectiveness in PvE.

#11 chullster

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:35 PM

View Postzwei2stein, on 10 May 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

When and Where in PVE was DPS not everything?


err not sure what you're asking, I'm agreeing with you that DPS in pve is everything,

#12 El Duderino

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:40 PM

View Postzwei2stein, on 10 May 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

When and Where in PVE was DPS not everything?
.
Once players figure out encounter, they will always end up maximizing direct DPS in favor of utility or DOTs. This is game-agnostic problem.

Only GW2 unique shade is the fact that in fractals, there comes moment when using healing, vitality or toughness is pointless because failed dodge at boss will down you regardless of how much you have stacked.

As I the only thing close to an MMO I have played is GW1, I will say that while I agree AI is eventually "figured out" and exploited, the combat system there was much more fun because it wasn't just DPS and self healing/dodging. There was a team dynamic that created depth and interesting combat that wasn't solely focused on DPS. I can continue if you want, but I'm sure you know I have been down this particular road a lot.

View PostDasryn, on 10 May 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

so what do you people want?  this is turning into a damned if you do, damned if you dont on ANet's part because of the increasingly demanding and whiny player base.

Decide to make a game that is based on popular "good game" mechanics instead of trying to make a game for what your audience thinks it wants.

If they did this, then they would try to make a game where balance and depth of combat supersedes the need to placate casual gamers who don't like taking the time to find a group or specific elements of that group.

#13 Bonana

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:47 PM

Whats the problem here? The heart of many mmo is dps. Any type of mmorpg does not have dps is beyond me.

#14 El Duderino

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:57 PM

View PostBonana, on 10 May 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Whats the problem here? The heart of many mmo is dps. Any type of mmorpg does not have dps is beyond me.

Because when you make DPS and dodging/self healing the only thing that matters, then you have class discrimination, which is what GW2 has when it comes to a lot of group PvE content.

Why would you want a Necro/Engineer/Ranger/Thief/Etc. on your team when warriors give you max DPS and best in class armor and mesmers help you skip content?

That is the problem.

#15 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:05 PM

View PostDasryn, on 10 May 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

im loving how this is all of a sudden an issue.

and yes it is all of a sudden an issue.  i've seen probably 4 threads in the last week pertaining to this "meta".

i brought this up about 3 months ago and i was told there is nothing wrong with the game.

i went about it in the "they eliminated trinity so that dumbed down the game to everything dps" and i was met with quite a bit of rejection from this very community.

so you dont want trinity, you dont want all dps action oriented combat

what is it that you all really want?  i mean, the above posters are 100% correct in their assessment of the situation especially this:


so what do you people want?  this is turning into a damned if you do, damned if you dont on ANet's part because of the increasingly demanding and whiny player base.

I think we DO want the holy trinity...but I think the change we need most at the time being are some well revised condition mechanics.

View Postchullster, on 10 May 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Because I doubt it's costing them any money, for now.

Trying to think of a way to fix it? I can't, it seems to be too embedded in the game now.

So far in PvE:
DPS is everything
Healing is useless
CC is mostly useless
condition damage is useless
pets/minions pretty useless
hardly any interupts/shutdowns
so mesmers are for gimicks and rangers are ultra useless

Good luck with that anet......

Everything this man says is correct. (Except for rangers being useless. I don't agree.)

Conditions VS DPS("slash slash slash," etc.)

DPS currently destroys condition damage. Thus why everyone goes full berserker. We have no use for conditions, EXCEPT poison.

I don't think ArenaNet gives a damn about that. But CONDITIONS is what they need to address directly, in order to have some interesting builds coming out instead of, "GLF3M WARRIOR FULL ZERKER ONLY!!!" as well as full zerker being the ONLY viable gear build in PvE... i'd say, PvP as well.

My two mains, ranger and mesmer, I both had at full condition damage for at least 4 months, carrion sets. I just recently made the change to ALL zerker sets last month and saw how much more damage I was dealing on a constant basis. Condition damage is far from viable. Thus players ONLY have one choice at the moment: "The Zerker Build." This is a strict "holy build" that everyone must follow and it's not creativity or fun at all.

Edited by I'm Squirrel, 10 May 2013 - 02:06 PM.


#16 lmaonade

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:21 PM

View Postchullster, on 10 May 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

[/size]

err not sure what you're asking, I'm agreeing with you that DPS in pve is everything,

he's saying that it's not a GW2 specific problem, that DPS is king in pretty much all MMOs, the only difference being that the designs of other MMOs balance that out.

#17 Lunacy Polish

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:45 PM

Just FWIW:  the DPS optimized CoF farming is the soulless but high paying corporate office job of Guild Wars 2.

I have opted to do construction work with the guy from Office Space by comparison.  I only play WvW and level my alt now.  I will never have that fat pile of cash those other guys do but sometimes opting out of a bad system is the better choice if you value freedom to do whatever over more money.

#18 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:59 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 10 May 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

They made this pretty clear in the year-plan. Casual daily open world grind is their focus.

Translation: Asian farming MMO.  FarmVille in a high fantasy setting.  The only thing we're missing now is the cash shop selling power.  Giving that 6 mos to a year.

View PostFoxBat, on 10 May 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Dungeons they can't even be bothered to "overhaul" like they suggested, if you can call fighting the howling king on the stairs an "overhaul." This is not Vanilla WoW where everything pointed towards raids. Dungeons are just a bone thrown at a specific kind of player, but with not nearly enough attention to make them a robust experience.

Translation: Reworking the dungeons to make the bone even remotely palatable cannot be monetized.  It would be released as a loss leader if it would stimulate player numbers.  Basically, people need to quit if they're fed up with the dungeons and want them fixed.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#19 Aerin Rae

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:17 PM

Every time they update the dungeons, it doesn't take the player base long to find new strategies around the updates. Hopefully they'll keep making the dungeons harder, and find ways to keep parties from skipping/glitching certain paths. Of course, if they do that, it would be nice if they improved drops, too. If a dungeon takes longer/is more difficult, make it worth the effort. The downside is, you'll have a large portion of the population, mostly likely the farming/running portion, whine about those changes.

They could also either lower the damage output of the berserker build in general, or improve the damage of other builds.

#20 ShezuTsukai

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:32 PM

Quitting the whole is not the answer. Quitting certain content is. Lost Shores is a ghost island and now Living Story is suddenly going there.

The dungeons that get the least amount/over play will get addressed. AC is a good example of over farming forcing some change. I'm sure CoF 1's days are numbered. But the farm happy, good hoarders will find somewhere else to go.

But on the other point I totally agree. Conditions need help and balancing to match dps. So many fun builds and interesting play sits unused because they can't match straight dps. All I play is Thief and I use to carry more cleanses when confusion actually hurt.

#21 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:40 PM

View PostShezuTsukai, on 10 May 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Quitting the whole is not the answer. Quitting certain content is. Lost Shores is a ghost island and now Living Story is suddenly going there.

The Lost Shores is being used because it's a ghost town because it's less work than creating a new area or adjusting content that's already jam-packed with other events they would have to move, recode, or test and risk pissing people off about it.

View PostShezuTsukai, on 10 May 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

The dungeons that get the least amount/over play will get addressed. AC is a good example of over farming forcing some change. I'm sure CoF 1's days are numbered. But the farm happy, good hoarders will find somewhere else to go.

Potentially for the same reasons.  Because it's less work than creating new maps and terrain and testing that for holes in the ground or pathing issues and likely to not offend people who stopped giving a crap.  Their motivations for eventually addressing the issues are going to be coincidental and nothing alike.

Things get a higher priority when ArenaNet can correlate it to impacting profits and POTENTIAL GEM STORE CUSTOMERS.

Edited by MazingerZ, 10 May 2013 - 03:41 PM.

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Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#22 ShezuTsukai

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:48 PM

Ummm MazingerZ isn't that what I said?

#23 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:54 PM

View PostShezuTsukai, on 10 May 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Ummm MazingerZ isn't that what I said?

Unless I misinterpreted it, you say quitting parts of the game will tell ArenaNet "this sucks, fix it."

That's not why the Living Story is going to Southsun Cove.  It's going there because it's convenient for them to put it there because people cleared out.  It's less work to use pre-existing pieces no one's using.  They're changing  it not because they got the message "Southsun sucks" but because it's less work for them to rework a lackluster area as part of their monthly half-hearted concurrent player stimulation plan.

If you want them to address the dungeons in a timely manner, you need to prioritize it, and the best way to prioritize it is for the lackluster dungeon PvE to be a major cause of player attrition.  Quit, tell them why you quit and encourage others with a similar desire to see reworked PvE dungeons to do so.

Edited by MazingerZ, 10 May 2013 - 03:56 PM.

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#24 Draino

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 04:00 PM

This is a dangerous thread! ANet could be expected to respond to this (if they noticed it at all) by changing all silver and boss fights to one-hit everything they can touch, and to ignore all CCs like wall. Just don't hold your breath for a mechanic that makes the fights more interesting.

Oh, almost forgot...the other preferred response is to stack rat adds to the roof, like they've recently done in Cursed Shore / Shelter. A thousand baby veteran spiders. Yeah...that'll show us.

Edited by Draino, 10 May 2013 - 04:03 PM.


#25 Kichwas

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 04:09 PM

This kind of team structure is really only good in CoF path 1.

That's only one dungeon out of a whole world of content.

All they need to do is patch CoF path 1.

Anywhere else you need a well balanced team to do things, made all the more obvious by the many threads posted by 'zerkers' on forums about how this or that area has too many vets or champions or mobs that hit too hard (such as assorted complaints after the last patch's changes to Cursed Shore). People on balanced builds / teams have no problems with that stuff - but zerker's can't glitch it, so complain its broken... :)

Patch CoF Path 1, watch the zerkes light up the forums in rage, but the rest of the game community will be better for it.

#26 El Duderino

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 04:15 PM

View PostDraino, on 10 May 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

This is a dangerous thread! ANet could be expected to respond to this (if they noticed it at all) by changing all silver and boss fights to one-hit everything they can touch, and to ignore all CCs like wall. Just don't hold your breath for a mechanic that makes the fights more interesting.

Oh, almost forgot...the other preferred response is to stack rat adds to the roof, like they've recently done in Cursed Shore / Shelter. A thousand baby veteran spiders. Yeah...that'll show us.

Exactly. Making the encounters more difficult is a lazy way to make them more interesting - which is really at the heart of the problem. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for making encounters more difficult, but that would in no way change the Zerker problem.

Creating a combat system where there are other interesting and effective choices to me made other than maxing damage and learn to dodge is the answer to this question. Unfortunately, there are tons of defenders who look admit to the Zerker problem, but don't agree to see it for what it is. The typical response is to place the blame on the player and belittling those that want to be effective. Unfortunately  that is simply being short sighted and naive at the in order to blindly defend the game and it's problems with combat.

View PostKichwas, on 10 May 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

This kind of team structure is really only good in CoF path 1.

That's only one dungeon out of a whole world of content.

All they need to do is patch CoF path 1.

Anywhere else you need a well balanced team to do things, made all the more obvious by the many threads posted by 'zerkers' on forums about how this or that area has too many vets or champions or mobs that hit too hard (such as assorted complaints after the last patch's changes to Cursed Shore). People on balanced builds / teams have no problems with that stuff - but zerker's can't glitch it, so complain its broken... :)

Patch CoF Path 1, watch the zerkes light up the forums in rage, but the rest of the game community will be better for it.

This is not true. CoF is the most recognizable dungeon path as it relates to being the most profitable and the most run - however, provided you have a group of experienced players, a team of Zerker Warriors will tear through any content and dungeon much more effectively than anything else.

#27 Draino

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 04:28 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 10 May 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Creating a combat system where there are other interesting and effective choices to me made other than maxing damage and learn to dodge is the answer to this question.

It kind of burns to admit it, but early WoW had many fights that met this criterion. movement and placement (not huddling in a corner) were critical. Observation of the boss' state was critical. We really need fights that make us think, make us move, make us plan our use of skills - what we don't need is an escalated to-the-roof DPS battle between players and bosses, where the only other mechanic that matters is dodging. And, not that my opinion matters, but one-hitting is very lame. If I'm fighting poorly and losing, let me feel it. "oops I'm dead" is flat, emotionally. Make me suffer a bit if I'm being beaten by a boss...make me feel the pain. I'd rather lose sometimes to a superior opponent; losing to a nuclear blast is not a contest.

#28 NerfHerder

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 04:49 PM

Why is the current meta not addressed?

Because the professions are not balanced yet. You cant balance endgame against imbalanced professions. One step at a time guys.

#29 Archon_Wing

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 05:01 PM

Against stupid, computer controlled mobs, offense will always take priority as player skill increases to avoid damage. Unless one adds practically undodgeable attacks, but then the idea of dodging was to make skill take precedence over equipment.

Of course the problem of the difficult content doing so much damage that toughness and vit suck anyways is a problem too.

#30 Mister Stygian

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:17 PM

I think they could partially address the problem by making combo fields do more damage or 100% crit besides just adding a condition or a boon.  People would want classes that are better at making fields or more varieties into their runs.




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