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The battle for the Temple of Balthazar.


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#1 asuran

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:06 PM

I wanted to get Obsidian Shards so could make some clovers, my homeserver is Desolation and so I saw that the Temple of Balthazar was contested, so I decided to help in hope we might succeed in retaking from the undead, several days went by without any luck. I decided to go the wiki and search for answers. And saw this:

Each set of troops makes it easier to move the Pact troops along the path to the final encounter.

Every time me and everyone was just focused on the south path and so decided to try and get the northern squad joining it as well. I have never done those events before and so I failed at retaking the camp, I then started to use the mapchat and ask for help to secure the northern camp and so increase our chances in retaking the temple. After around 10 minutes and more failed attempts by others to retake the temple I received help and slowly more and more started to ask why help the middle and northern paths, after explaining that it would increase the chances of retaking the temple. Then something happened that I have never experienced before in GW 2 or in any other game, more and more players started to co-operate on the entire map, in the beginning only a small amount of players started to try and retake the 3 camps. But after each failure of players who tried to retake the temple more and more joined us, and once each path had enough players. We captured all 3 camps, a small amount stayed at each camp to make sure the camps won’t be retaken by the risen. 2 squads made it to the rally area, but someone started it too soon and left without the southern squad, when this event was active some of us still guarded the camps just to be sure. Luckily they made it to the temple and then all of us joined up and finally we retook the temple.
I am sharing this story because this is one of my best game experiences in GW 2 so far, almost all players co-operating to achieve the same goal, I heard from others that the map even became a overflow for a short while, I am not sure if that’s true but I do know I have never seen this map so occupied since the first weeks at launch. Many came to join since wanted to enjoy all the action and co-operation. The way everything was going was just a great experience and I am hoping I will experience it more and I hope Arenanet will make more of those maps like the strait of devastation  with such great dynamic events.

#2 El Duderino

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:49 PM

This is an example of one of the best and overlooked parts of this game. If there was a way to make the dynamic events, especially the higher level ones, more attractive to players, it would be amazing. The interesting part about this is that it sounds it didn't end up in a complete zerg, possibly because of the mechanics of the actual event needing more than one group to complete. That is the other side of the coin in these things, is that there is a fine line when dynamic events just turn in to zergs and the epicness and interest of the DE is lost.

But, that is awesome that you felt that way. I have had a similar experience or two, but they are, unfortunately, fleeting.

#3 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:00 PM

I'd have to agree that the Temple of Balthazar chain is one of the best designed and most fun event chains in all of Orr (and possibly all of Tyria).  The downside is what the OP detailed very nicely... for it to be successful, it requires a fairly sizable coordinated effort and decent planning and communication.  The elite content in Guild Wars was often designed this way, with a skill > time thinking (tacitly making the assumption that zerging would never work... which it usually didn't), but that seems to have largely been lost along the way to GW2, except for a few specific places.  

As much as I hate to say it, the OP also has told us why that is:  Players will generally focus on the most rewarding, brainless content available, despite the fact that it lacks any real thrill 90% of the time (or more).  If only there were more chests (or some other kind of truly rewarding incentive, like a 100% chance of exotic drop)  in the Temple of Balthazar chain (and others like it), we might see people actually spending time on these awesome events.

#4 draxynnic

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 12:07 PM

One of the annoying things about the Temple of Balthazar chain is that while having reinforcements from the other routes helps, it's not actually an activated event. They automatically head for the Temple a short time after any group arrives unless there are escort quests for other groups still active - so unless you manage to coordinate so that all the escort quests trigger at about the same time, you don't get the benefit.

One simple improvement they could make to the chain is to make it so that it is activated, with the activating NPC informing the player of how large a force is before leaving ("Are you sure? We're still waiting on groups from the other invasion forces." "We can probably take the temple with available forces, but if we could secure forces from the remaining invasion force that would help ensure victory." "All available forces are here, Commander. The time to strike is now!").

Another problem I find with these sprawling meta-events is that if you're not involved in the final boss battle, it's easy to miss out on the big payoff. The Temple of Lyssa is particularly bad for this - everybody zergs into the centre to take on the priestess and few people watch the map for a Risen counterattack on a seal. In most cases, a successful run requires a reasonable number of people defending the seals, but a player who's concentrating on keeping the seals under Pact control is risking not getting the chest. As a result, I've had a few times when I've announced that a seal was under threat and had no response until it actually falls and the priestess becomes invulnerable again - people are too afraid that if they leave the central combat, they might miss out.
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#5 Guardian of the Light

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 12:28 PM

Honestly I think Temple of Balthazar's problem is that it's on in a zone that only people leveling do. Compare this to cursed shore which is a zone with multiple activities everyone can bounce around. It's got a karma race track with shelter and pent farming as well as a couple of other event chains, a fairly easy temple fight with Melandru which can be attempted once enough people in the zone and one of the hardest DE chains with Grenth's fight so those who want a challenge when there's enough people.

You can hop from each level depending on who available and what you want to do. I've been in a PuG that has beaten Grenth before but never Balthazar simply because there are more people available I can call upon at Grenth despite the fact that both slaughter mindless zergs if you let them.

So really I think the key to getting people to do tougher event chains is to put a karma race track in the same zone for people to do while they wait for people to try the tough event.

Edited by Guardian of the Light, 13 May 2013 - 03:04 AM.


#6 davadude

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 02:20 PM

I hate suggesting this, but the temple events should be put on those, what are they called, Dragontimers?

They're awesome events, and pulling them off after a long haul is really fun.  Sadly, as GoL pointed out, it's in a zone that is only occupied by levelers, so it needs better exposure.
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#7 Bloodtau

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 04:22 PM

There just aren't enough players left in servers to properly complete it. The only way it can get done is if several bigger guilds decide to guest onto the same server and focus on completing it. This is bad design in my eyes. They need to rebalance it. It might have worked when servers were so full that Orr had overflows, but not now.

#8 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 04:35 PM

View Postdavadude, on 12 May 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

I hate suggesting this, but the temple events should be put on those, what are they called, Dragontimers?

They're awesome events, and pulling them off after a long haul is really fun.  Sadly, as GoL pointed out, it's in a zone that is only occupied by levelers, so it needs better exposure.

If you mean the online event timers, the Temple of Balthazar event has been on there for months now.  It was one of the first non-dragon events they added.  However, due to the nature of the event, the timers are pretty inaccurate.  The final event can be on a timer, but it can't go off without a series of other events being successfully completed first.  It doesn't seem to be one linear chain, as others have pointed out, since some of the reinforcements are not required for the finale event to start, (and some of those never even get off the ground).  It seems like there are three roads that converge to the finale event and if at least one of them is completed, the finale goes on a timer to start.  This makes it hard to accurately time when it will start.

I think the reason Anet put the only merchant who can transform karma into a very specific legendary crafting material in this zone is because they anticipated that players wouldn't be spending as much time here as in Cursed shore.  Unfortunately, they don't seem to have anticipated the fact that loads of people don't give a shit about the legendary grind, or the fact that the segregation caused by so many servers would make a lot of even high level zones virtually empty.

#9 davadude

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:35 PM

View PostCaptain Bulldozer, on 12 May 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

If you mean the online event timers, the Temple of Balthazar event has been on there for months now.  It was one of the first non-dragon events they added.  However, due to the nature of the event, the timers are pretty inaccurate.  The final event can be on a timer, but it can't go off without a series of other events being successfully completed first.  It doesn't seem to be one linear chain, as others have pointed out, since some of the reinforcements are not required for the finale event to start, (and some of those never even get off the ground).  It seems like there are three roads that converge to the finale event and if at least one of them is completed, the finale goes on a timer to start.  This makes it hard to accurately time when it will start.

I did not know this, thank you!
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#10 Castaa

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:30 PM

It's funny I was just going to post something about this event.

We failed 3 times getting the troops to the temple.

The issue is that a ton of noble risen spawn and AE the ♥♥♥♥ out of all the NPCs.   It's very difficult to survive that fight without NPC moral taking a huge hit or being wiped out completely.

I guess the only way you can avoid it, is to know exactly when and where they spawn and AE them first to pull their aggro to the players and not the NPCs.  IMO, that section is bad design because it's not you can see them coming and head them off.  It's almost instant and you are ♥♥♥♥ed and it's a lot of work to get a large group of player to run back redo multiple events to try again.  Especially players used to winning by zerg.

Edited by Castaa, 13 May 2013 - 04:33 PM.


#11 asuran

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:25 PM

View PostBloodtau, on 12 May 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

There just aren't enough players left in servers to properly complete it. The only way it can get done is if several bigger guilds decide to guest onto the same server and focus on completing it. This is bad design in my eyes. They need to rebalance it. It might have worked when servers were so full that Orr had overflows, but not now.
well, from what i heard people even came to the map just to join and try to get the temple(and to get into the action) it's not a bad design and i hope even more of these kind of big events come in the future(i really want more map wide dynamic events)

View PostCastaa, on 13 May 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

It's funny I was just going to post something about this event.

We failed 3 times getting the troops to the temple.

The issue is that a ton of noble risen spawn and AE the ♥♥♥♥ out of all the NPCs.   It's very difficult to survive that fight without NPC moral taking a huge hit or being wiped out completely.

I guess the only way you can avoid it, is to know exactly when and where they spawn and AE them first to pull their aggro to the players and not the NPCs.  IMO, that section is bad design because it's not you can see them coming and head them off.  It's almost instant and you are ♥♥♥♥ed and it's a lot of work to get a large group of player to run back redo multiple events to try again.  Especially players used to winning by zerg.

i do not find that a issue, you are in Orr, the homeland of the enemy, so yeah stuff should be hard, and the more squads that join up, the more chance, try to convince others to get all 3 paths moving like i did, when i need more shards i am gonna it again, the same way as i wrote before.

people who say there arent enough players, look at how many ppl there always are when the group marches towards the temple, its most of the time over 20 ppl, each of the 3 paths needs around 6 to 8 ppl miminum to successly do them.
and i am sorry to say but if you say bad design then you just arent playing it right, it can be done even with small numbers, just play it right.

#12 draxynnic

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 02:53 AM

Casta's point is that the noble spawns are pretty much instant 'watch 30-60% of your morale go in one hit' events. It's a result of changes in the Risen behaviour since release - when the event was designed they couldn't do that, but now they have an ability that allows them to shadowstep and drop a pulsing PBAoE at their destination simultaneously, and using that ability is the first thing on their priority list. So when that wave hits, if they all decide to hit a single area, anything in that area that doesn't dodge or invulnerability simple dies - and NPCs do neither. There's almost nothing the players can do to stop it (keeping the NPCs healed up helps, and you can try to get the spawn to hit somewhere where there's no NPCs) - it makes the event a bit of a case of pot luck.

That said, 'bigger zerg' certainly isn't the answer. If anything, it makes the problem worse, since it means more nobles to deliver that spike-of-doom. There's probably a 'sweet spot' where you have enough people to defend - if they're smart - but the hordes of nobles don't reach the 'death to all' level.
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