Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
* - - - - 1 votes

Nerf the Fun: What's Up Here?

pve

  • Please log in to reply
22 replies to this topic

#1 Draino

Draino

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 111 posts
  • Location:Appalachia
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 13 May 2013 - 12:40 PM

Penitent/Shelter playing in Cursed Shore has been effectively crushed recently by two highly effective changes: first, the baby vet spider zergs that often last long enough for loot to disappear, and second, the champion wraiths with their wide-area AoE (seemingly not limited to affecting only five opponents at a time, like yours are, player). So a really entertaining area to play has become unrewarding to do (at best), and in the opinions of several players posting here, unplayable (at worst). Quite a few players, including me, are disappointed that this enjoyable gameplay has been purposely quashed.

A couple of months ago, The Frozen Maw in Wayfarer got similar treatment via the timers. Still an easy chain to run, but its huge popularity and utility as a leveling area, largely quashed by the new huge timer window.

So I guess I have this question for ANet: it seems as though you identify mini-games lots of your players enjoy, and put them on the top of the nerf list.

These players enjoying themselves is why they play...why on earth would you do this? Happy players mean revenue. Unhappy players eventually turn into revenue for your competitors.

What's up?

#2 Lordkrall

Lordkrall

    Legion Commander

  • Members
  • 5337 posts
  • Location:Sweden
  • Profession:Warrior
  • Server:Aurora Glade

Posted 13 May 2013 - 12:53 PM

One could also see it the other way:
Kitten economy means unhappy players, which would mean less money for ArenaNet. The fact that it was very possible to farm expensive materials with more or less no risks did damage the economy in the game quite a bit, which hurts the game way more than a few people that gets sad because they can't get unlimited amount of gold without any risk.

#3 Draino

Draino

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 111 posts
  • Location:Appalachia
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:05 PM

Lordkrall, I wouldn't say it was "no risks" before, I used to rez people at Pen/Shel a good bit before the changes (and enjoyed a rez or two myself at times), but your point about the economy has merit there. Less so, perhaps in the Maw, loot there was never as much a motivator as leveling utility IMO.

But granting your point about Pen/Shel, why move the dial too far? It was a notch or so above a faceroll before, why make it into Claw-level aggravation?

Or, why not reduce the loot some?

Edited by Draino, 13 May 2013 - 01:10 PM.


#4 Lordkrall

Lordkrall

    Legion Commander

  • Members
  • 5337 posts
  • Location:Sweden
  • Profession:Warrior
  • Server:Aurora Glade

Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:13 PM

View PostDraino, on 13 May 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Lordkrall, I wouldn't say it was "no risks" before, I used to rez people at Pen/Shel a good bit before the changes (and enjoyed a rez or two myself at times), but your point about the economy has merit there. Less so, perhaps in the Maw, loot there was never as much a motivator as leveling utility IMO.

But granting your point about Pen/Shel, why move the dial too far? It was a notch or so above a faceroll before, why make it into Claw-level aggravation?

Or, why not reduce the loot some?

You can still get more or less free rares/exotics/precursors at Maw, which means either loads of gold or Ectos.

Why make it hard?
Because it is part of a "elite zone" in the game. If they find that it is too hard they will probably make it a bit easier, but then again I would rather have something that is "too hard" than something that I can do while half asleep myself.

Reducing the loot is another way to go, but if they did people would whine about not getting rewarded for doing stuff.

#5 FoxBat

FoxBat

    Vigil Crusader

  • Members
  • 3929 posts

Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:22 PM

Anet has more or less convinced themselves that "fun" means encouraging people to move around to different areas and content in a day, rather than doing the same thing over and over for hours on end. Ironically the Penitent farmers will just move on to the next best area to run over and over all day long until the next nerf in a few months time, so even if you appreciate the sentiment, I'm not sure what they've accomplished.

#6 Draino

Draino

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 111 posts
  • Location:Appalachia
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:25 PM

Lordkrall, tbh, I don't see how "elite zone" can balance in, myself...Pen/Shel was previously more difficult than most of the area of Orr, simply because of the density of the standard Risen mobs. By this logic, there'd need to be similar goosing of mob encounters all across the zone. It still seems to me that the popularity of the two waypoint areas, due to the frequency of events there, made it a special target for this change. Think of Grenth, with half a dozen champ wraiths added; the place would seldom attract enough players to open it.

Sorry, but I still see some special and not-so-nice attention for these two waypoints. Not an even-handed change to the area.

#7 Bloggi

Bloggi

    Savant

  • Members
  • 857 posts
  • Location:Coastal
  • Profession:Elementalist
  • Guild Tag:[CRAP]
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:35 PM

The Pen/ Shelt Waypoint events can be exceedingly annoying on populated servers during peak periods, which is when I suspect things are geared up a tonne and we see champs spawning that have one-shot insta-gib attacks. If I actually want to farm those events still, I usually guest on less populated servers...but not so unpopulated as to have all events fail and the Pen/ Shelt area is constantly overrun with risen! :D

#8 Draino

Draino

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 111 posts
  • Location:Appalachia
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:00 PM

Bloggi, I play it on my Engi...the more the merrier, before the change...but within my observations, you're right about the scaling, especially now it seems easier to deal with the champ wraiths with two or three people who can watch one another and tag-team the beast. When one pops out to heal, the other goes in to fight.

But I'll gladly wear the shameful mantle and admit, sometimes I just want a place where you can kind of zone and fight and listen to some good music, without being utterly involved at 100% mentally. Sometimes I just want to play for fun, but not have it be a waste of time rewards-wise. Does this make me a terribad person? I hope not...I don't think I'm the only one :o

#9 MazingerZ

MazingerZ

    Golem Rider

  • Curse Premium
  • Curse Premium
  • 2238 posts
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Guild Tag:[CYRL]
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 13 May 2013 - 03:34 PM

View PostDraino, on 13 May 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Sometimes I just want to play for fun

ArenaNet dictates what is fun.

And according to the polishers on the forums, if you don't find it fun, the game is not for YOU.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#10 MrIllusion

MrIllusion

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1174 posts

Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:16 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 13 May 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

ArenaNet dictates what is fun.

And according to the polishers on the forums, if you don't find it fun, the game is not for YOU.

Anet dictates the Risk-to-Reward ratio.

If anyone can zone out and farm a specific area, then he probably don't deserve the loot that's coming up.

#11 MazingerZ

MazingerZ

    Golem Rider

  • Curse Premium
  • Curse Premium
  • 2238 posts
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Guild Tag:[CYRL]
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:17 PM

View PostMrIllusion, on 13 May 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

Anet dictates the Risk-to-Reward ratio.

If anyone can zone out and farm a specific area, then he probably don't deserve the loot that's coming up.

You heard it here, Draino.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#12 El Duderino

El Duderino

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2243 posts
  • Location:Drowning in a White Russian listening to Creedence
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[DuDE]
  • Server:Blackgate

Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:02 PM

View PostMrIllusion, on 13 May 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

Anet dictates the Risk-to-Reward ratio.

If anyone can zone out and farm a specific area, then he probably don't deserve the loot that's coming up.

This is what kills me the most. World bosses literally have the best rewards in the game before you even take into account the risk/reward factor. CoF would be a close 2nd because of it's repeat-ability.

How in the world does this make sense? There is absolutely no skill to getting anything in this game, just mindless repetition or gem store purchases.

Even legendaries are less a trophy of skill and hard work and more a prize for showing off how much you can run CoF and get lucky with RNG. It doesn't have anything to do with your actual skill as a player.

Farming should be in a game, and it should reward skill rather than time. Unfortunately, I think this is another area where it appears that the developers favored casual gameplay - which may or may not actually make casual players happy or the game any better.

#13 Draino

Draino

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 111 posts
  • Location:Appalachia
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:17 PM

Could I have the area back, with no loot? At least I could still have fun that way :D

#14 Captain Bulldozer

Captain Bulldozer

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 392 posts
  • Guild Tag:[SoDF]
  • Server:Isle of Janthir

Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:44 PM

There must always be a balancing act between content that is "too rewarding" and "fun".  The issue stems from the fact that what a lot of players find "fun" is what is most rewarding.  However, since the game world is a closed system, more and better rewards cause pretty severe devaluation, which is turn hampers "fun" for many.  As an example, for a short time every dragon/world event rewarded a MINIMUM of one rare item each time you did the event (per server, per day, or whatever restrictions there were... I've already forgotten).  As a result, almost every such event created overflow servers on all well populated servers and the average price of rare items dropped by more than 10 silver in just a few days.  This caused the people stockpiling gold/rares to lose the value they had "worked" to obtain, and thus they became more and more disgruntled.

The unfortunate (or fortunate, depending on your perspective) side is that we have to go with Anet's staff on how and when these decisions are made... and Anet doesn't always (or often) do a stellar job at it.  My own opinion is that they are too concerned with the super rich and not concerned enough with whether the average players feels well rewarded, but that's only one opinion (and one from someone who's not super rich in or out of the game).  Either way, the end result is that its their game and we're all stuck with the decisions, good or bad, that they make for its direction.

#15 Porkchop Sandwiches

Porkchop Sandwiches

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 108 posts
  • Location:Wizard's Folly
  • Server:Northern Shiverpeaks

Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:58 PM

I still farm this. Anet posted that the champs are being looked into. I don't think it was deliberate.

#16 Draino

Draino

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 111 posts
  • Location:Appalachia
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 13 May 2013 - 06:49 PM

Porkchop Sandwiches, thanks for that, I had not seen it. Good news, indeed.

And to all, lest I be universally derided for all time, I suppose my description of how I play these events might have been imprecisely worded. "Zoned," well, you might get some in my guild to opine I seem to be a tiny bit zoned much of the time; and as for not being "involved at 100% mentally," 99% fits into that category, as do a large number of smaller integers. I am always there, always playing my utilities, and yes, I have notches on my trusty grenade pack frame indicating kills of champion wraiths. But no: I'm not always 100% intense-focused-blind-to-any-distractions there. Again, mea culpa. Bet y'all are like that, too, at times. ;)

#17 Porkchop Sandwiches

Porkchop Sandwiches

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 108 posts
  • Location:Wizard's Folly
  • Server:Northern Shiverpeaks

Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:02 PM

NP. I didn't have the time earlier to find it, but here is the post: https://forum-en.gui...rst#post1989832

Ofc, I have no idea how long it will take them to update this :( Come guest on NSP, we're usually small enough to not trigger the champs!

#18 Bloggi

Bloggi

    Savant

  • Members
  • 857 posts
  • Location:Coastal
  • Profession:Elementalist
  • Guild Tag:[CRAP]
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:09 AM

View PostDraino, on 13 May 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

But I'll gladly wear the shameful mantle and admit, sometimes I just want a place where you can kind of zone and fight and listen to some good music, without being utterly involved at 100% mentally. Sometimes I just want to play for fun, but not have it be a waste of time rewards-wise. Does this make me a terribad person? I hope not...I don't think I'm the only one :o

Well there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Though I don't do it often, I like to play games while having my favorite glass of liqueur on the rocks. And obviously we know that alcohol doesn't exactly make a person sharper. Truth be told, we are in this to have fun. Some people are calling for content of extreme difficulty, which is fine and more power to them if they find that to be fun. But personally, if I wanted a reason to be on my toes 100% of the time, for every second of every minute and every hour, I'd rather be at work, and there at least they pay me in cold, hard cash. This game on the other hand, just takes up my time.

#19 Longasc

Longasc

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 34 posts

Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:30 AM

Did they not rather nerf the FARM rather than the "FUN"? Also note, this supposed nerf was apparently not intentionally.

What I find ironic is that the "FUN" in GW2 endgame supposedly is the endless farming for rare materials.

#20 DarkHorseKnight

DarkHorseKnight

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 158 posts

Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:45 AM

View PostLongasc, on 15 May 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Did they not rather nerf the FARM rather than the "FUN"? Also note, this supposed nerf was apparently not intentionally.

What I find ironic is that the "FUN" in GW2 endgame supposedly is the endless farming for rare materials.

If I find farming fun, that is the games fault?

And this whole "AHMG ITS SCREWING UP THE ECONOMY" stuff is rather garbage too. Yes a really badly balanced farm that is done on a wide scale can screw up some sections of the economy, however what people don't seem to get is that a good economy is one where things are being traded freely and often. So as long as more people are buying than selling and the supply is not depleted, there is no  problem here. Especially because these farms don't actually generate gold but rather remove it via the TP tax, the only part of the economy that could become over saturated is the items being farmed. Which can be solved better by increasing demand rather then nerfing farms.

In fact it could be argued that event/kill farmers are MUCH MUCH MUCH less detrimental to the economy then dungeon farmers because dungeon farms actually introduce new currency into the game. Where as kill farming and selling drops actually removes currency from the game.

Edited by DarkHorseKnight, 15 May 2013 - 11:48 AM.


#21 Coren

Coren

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2395 posts
  • Location:In my lab BOOKAH
  • Profession:Engineer
  • Guild Tag:[DRK]

Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:04 PM

Personally I get my fun in build crafting, and failing miserably every time I come up with a gadgets based build for an engineer.

True, the content becomes tedious, mostly because the story is flat and predictable.

Anyone here remembers sorrow's furnace free update? Another endgame content, partying being necessary because the quests demanded coordination, farmers got greens to farm, and we had interesting quests and final boss.

THAT was worthy of "living story material". All in one go, context and a tangible reward. Where did ANet go wrong to get such poor quality?

Seriously, give us more adds like the April's fools dungeon (can't remember name lol) and skip those living story bs until you come up with something decent in an expansion, I'd pay for that.

#22 Castaa

Castaa

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 273 posts
  • Location:San Francisco
  • Guild Tag:[Dark]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:23 PM

Lyssa is also much more difficult and just plain annoying with the Champion Gorilla that also spawns if enough (too many?) people are there I believe.

I always thought these encounter as too easy but I agree.  These changes are ham-fisted and add a lot more difficult with little feeling of improving the fun of the challenge.

Even getting out of line of sight does save you from the Champ Wraith's deadly life suck effect.  Someone said that the Guadian's dome protection will stop it. Maybe other classes have a similar skill.

#23 Draino

Draino

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 111 posts
  • Location:Appalachia
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:36 PM

View PostLongasc, on 15 May 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Did they not rather nerf the FARM rather than the "FUN"? Also note, this supposed nerf was apparently not intentionally.

What I find ironic is that the "FUN" in GW2 endgame supposedly is the endless farming for rare materials.

This gets to the heart of the matter, as I am perceiving it. If I want to play outdoors PvE events, well then, I'm just a farmer, and everyone knows farmers just wreck the game.

I know I'm supposed to run fractals or other dungeons or WvW over and over...that's legit, and it's what I'm supposed to do, and that's not farming.

Hmm.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users