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My Beefs w/ GW2 & ArenaNet


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#1 Sebrent_Tehroth

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 03:21 PM

Please let me preface this with:

If you are still enjoying GW2 and/or happy with ArenaNet, that's fine and I'm happy for you.

---

Some of you may recognize me (mainly for my math posts) if you frequent the same forums/sections as I do.

I used to be quick to defend ArenaNet on many points, but recently I can't help but think of the many things that have continued to aggravate me.

Lack of quality control
  • Patch days turn into a patch for the patch for the patch for the patch for the patch ... followed the next day by another patch for the patch for the patch.
  • The big WvW patch broken WvW ... you'd have thought someone would test that patch to see if it broke the thing it was designed for.
  • There is quite a bit of evidence that their codebase is horrible
    • The patch days mentioned above
    • Targeted patches breaking their target (as mentioned above)
    • Patches one thing breaking other things completely unrelated to the patch ... like Mesmer spear having no working hitbox after a patch a few months ago ... when there were no patches to it
    • Illusionary Leap for Mesmer's being broken/"fixed" on an almost per patch basis (undocumented too).
    • Inconsistencies in their code such as Thief basilisk venom having an undocumented immobilize on top of the stun which the state of the game highlighted
    • Still haven't fixed (or can't) Mesmer clones' not having offhands
    • Still haven't fulfilled (or can't) their promise of allowing 2hand weapons to have 2 sigils so they can be on the same footing as weapon sets that use two 1hand weapons.
    • How long it has taken them to actually make NPCs invulnerable in WvW
    • Still bad AI plaguing several classes ... two of which AI plays a large part of their class mechanics.
    • Groups getting bugged because a player leaves the game without leaving their party
    • Ranged attacks that are still randomly obstructed when the attacker and target are both on equal ground with nothing but open field between the two of them
Broken/Unfulfilled Promises
  • As previously stated, during BWEs, ArenaNet promised the community that they would make it so that 2hand weapons could have 2 sigils so that those weapon sets could have the same number of sigils as weapon sets using two 1hand weapons ... where is this fix?
  • The WvW patch was promised to change the WvW meta a bit and give players a reason to still care about WvW when the matchup was an overwhelming win/loss.
    • There are no new activities in WvW
    • The meta is still Zerg v Zerg
    • Most servers (if not all) have been fighting the same other two servers for going on two months now
      • For me, personally, this means Ehmry Bay stomping both Borliss Pass and Anvil Rock has gotten very old ... a challenge would be nice ... perhaps a chance to actually lose other than "only if we don't show up"
    • Instead we got WvW XP and levels ... which only affect NPCs and siege
      • Siege is largely for taking/defending points ... which matter less when the matchup isn't close.
  • There will be "no gear grind" ... except we added in ascended gear which has you grinding fractals and/or guild missions unless you want to be very patient with dailies ... and we were told there would eventually be ascended quality for other gear slots in the future ... "can't wait" to see what additional currency they add to get that ... *sigh*.
Appear to be "bad at math"
  • If you read any articles by different game companies or blogs of individual developers, you'll often see that they create a sort of "Average Joe" test dummy to test things on as far as pacing, OP, UP, etc.. It is a standard operating procedure to establish a baseline
    • Despite this, ArenaNet has been having to devote time now to changing how classes work because they realized that they allowed people to be killed in 1-2s if a glass cannon hits a non-tanky target.
      • This has Thieves in a period of flux where they are having to be changed because "burst or die" isn't good gameplay
        • Please note that I'm well aware of very good non-glass tanky Thieves builds ... I'm actually a fan of Sword + Dagger
      • Warriors have been harmed further in PvP by some of these changes
    • If you do the math for the various cooldown changes, you'll notice that some of them give you more or less than the 20% described by the trait.
    • Notice we are still getting large sweeping changes to various things' damages? Arrow cart has received two 50% changes recently ... they were that far off, eh?
    • Remember when Thief's Dancing Dagger hit for 6k to 8k, was ranged, spammable, didn't require stealth, and hit up to 4 targets? Lol.
Failure w/ Implementation of "No Holy Trinity"
  • What is bad about having a holy trinity?
    • It creates a higher demand for some classes over others for group play (tanks and healers > dps)
    • It can create non-interesting fights where you simply /assist tank + autoattack
  • What do we have in Guild Wars 2?
    • The status of Guardians, Warriors, and Mesmers as "the top 3" ... due to what they can bring compared to others and how it weighs in relative to current content and what it demands
    • Several groups asking specifically for "Guardians" or "Heavies"
    • Several groups asking people to not play their Ranger, Engineer, Thief, etc. for dungeons
    • Ever seen someone say "we have too many Guardians/Warriors/Mesmers" ? Probably not ... but I bet you have for other classes.
    • What do we do in most boss fights? Stand at range and auto-attack supplemented by some other skills
      • Occasionally do a dodge roll.
E-Sport Quality Combat ... where?
  • As has been stated by "the pros", there is too much use of random numbers in combat
    • Crit chance
    • on-crit sigils
    • on-crit traits
    • other procs
    • skills with random effects
  • Imbalances in classes
    • Notice that there are a few classes that are used consistently by the top tier tPvP teams.
    • Notice that there are a few classes that are close to never used by the top tier tPvP teams.
  • Still balancing the classes with how the Arenas work
    • Anyone here think that underwater combat has been balanced? My Mesmer and My Ranger are nightmares for people in the water ... I openly admit they are OP there.
    • People running the orbs ... just got a recent fix but there are still those with several more advantages than other classes ... and it isn't something that can be fixed with gear/spec changes.
Combat Being Dumbed Down
  • Nerf to confusion ... because avoiding the application of confusion, using condition removal, or moving/dodging without attacking for a few seconds were somehow too hard.
    • Heavy forbid people have to pay attention to the color change of their screen, effect on their character, condition icon on their screen, and damage numbers popping up with a unique effect each time they mindlessly bash their skills and/or auto-attack.
  • Nerf to Caltrop duration ... because people weren't smart enough to not stand in the red circle filled with sharp pointy objects that bled them to death the last 20 times?
  • AOEs limited to 5 people ... caters to the mindless zerging
    • Excuse is "technical limitation" even though older MMOs didn't have this "technical limitation" despite working on older hardware.
    • We also have siege ignoring this "technical limitation"
    • We also have other effects that ignore this "technical limitation"
  • Some skills do "way too much" for a player ... like heartseeker. With skilled players it's just an annoying thief they mock as they kill. At the lower skill-levels, it's a player being successful at turning to face, chasing, closing any gaps, and killing just by pressing one button repeatedly
  • The current meta is largely "boon heavy builds". These builds have near (if not completely) 100% up-time on select boons and thus influence players to use skills "whenever off cooldown" instead of "in reaction to combat" ... this diminishes skilled play
  • There are builds that fall completely into paper/scissor/rock ... giving us more "build wars"
    • I used to not believe this till I started dueling more, I would watch Alice kick the crud out of everyone (including me), then see Alice lose to Bob, who everyone (including me) kicked the crap out of.
      • Bob only beat Alice because Bob's build hard counters Alice's so much that Bob would have to be horribad to lose ... and then it'd be close.
Foods, Oils, and Sharpening Stones
  • Part of the draw to having no gear grind is that you don't have to farm/grind/etc. (treat a game like a job) in order to have the same total stat points as someone else.
  • These consumable items remove that since now you need to be able to afford them constantly.
    • Slow day in WvW because everyone is bored? You lose some gold standing around with your bonuses
    • Want to spend your gold on something else? Well then I hope you farmed sometime recently or played the trading post because your money is tied up in consumables.
  • These also allow stats to get to ridiculous amounts ... which enables for the very quick burst fights that ArenaNet says they are trying to scale back
  • Ranger pets do not scale with the Ranger's stats, so as more Ascended items enter the game, the relative power of pets to players decreases in PvE and WvW. The consumables exacerbate this problem
    • This is part of why Ranger pets are seen as being much stronger in sPvP than they are in PvE and WvW.
  • There is also the lemongrass poultry. -40% condition duration. Non-removable.
    • Conditions are already largely seen by the community as being "weaker" than direct damage in many parts of the game due to conditions stack caps, abundance of combo fields in WvW, condition removals, not affecting inanimate objects (siege, gates, etc.)
    • Now we have a food that lowers your condition duration (and thus damage) by 40% ... and because of the way condition damage works, this rounds up.
  • The power of these foods can be see by how the meta changed for some classes when the lifesteal on food was given an internal cooldown on its proc.
ArenaNet's treatment of the community
  • ArenaNet is very hush-hush about even their high-level designs for the game.
    • They ignore the wonderful things that have come from game companies having very free and open communication with their communities ... both for previous MMOs as well as upcoming ones.
    • If you want people to continue to invest in you, you could at least respect them enough to tell them what your ideas are ... even at a high-level.
    • Heck having test servers would shoot two birds with one stone as they could convey ideas to the community while getting some free-testing ... it could even help make patch days only need 1 patch ... instead of 5 and a few more the next day.
  • If you go to any non-ArenaNet-controlled GW2 forum, you'll inevitably run into a post about someone complaining about the moderation on ArenaNet's forums
    • These threads often end up with some people replying that they actually take advantage of it to "troll better" as they try to bait people into saying things or simply click on "look at all posts by Bob" and then report all those posts they think they have even a small chance of nailing "Bob" on.
  • Some of us (myself included) have tickets that are over a week old. Seeing as how the last time I had a ticket, it was answered in a matter of hours, measuring the current wait time in weeks is a bit ridiculous.
    • What's more aggravating for me personally is that I'm encountering the exact same issue two more times, something their community director, Eric "Dalmarus" Campbell, apologized to me for having happened before ... yet now I'm stuck dealing with it because they have yet to so much as acknowledge receiving it ... even though it is on my list of "My Stuff" at support.guildwars2.com.
Gameplay is boring the heck out of me
  • PvE
    • Dungeons - we run them for skins (or CoF p1 for money) or badges for a legendary. It gets extremely boring running the same dungeon over and over again.
      • The content is quite boring. It's often cripple melee opponents, block/reflect projectiles, assist on the called target. Nothing really new there.
      • Most people that do dungeons, because they are so boring, constantly look for ways to circumvent as much content as possible ... and are successful
      • We still have dungeon content whose difficulty can be circumvented by hiding in a corner ... even with new content like with the Living Story's Molten Facility and the "machine boss" near the beginning.
    • Legendaries are simply "I have lots of money" or "I did the grind". There isn't anything legendary about them. You ran the same dungeon X number of times to get 500 tokens. You gathered/bought a large number of materials. You jumped/fought in WvW for "badges of jumping". Kudos.
    • Fractals are the same few fractals every time. The higher levels don't add anything really meaningful. They just make it more punishing to get hit.
    • Guild Missions are made stupidly trivial given a large number of people
    • If the first person that entered the dungeon leaves group, etc., the entire group is dropped from the dungeon ... why?! ... this allows some people to be jerks and/or troll people and I don't see the benefit.
  • WvW
    • Arrow Cart ... 1 2 3 1 1 2 3 1 1 2 3 1 1 2 3 1 1 2 3 (feel free to reverse 2 and 3).
    • Ballista ... 1 2 3 11 2 3 11 2 3 1 2 3 1 1 2 3 (feel free to reverse 2 and 3)
    • Catapult ... 1, hold, release, wait, repeat
    • Trebuchet ... 1, hold, release, wait, repeat
    • Zerg vs Zerg ... throw random AOE, tab target, and auto-attack random people in a horde of 30+ as a horde of 30+ do the same to your horde.
      • There are some zerg-busting groups, but I've found most of those I know of on my server are bored with the game ... so not nearly on as much any more ... so now there's much less zerg busting.
    • You're not on siege and you're not defending the walls? Good luck to you with some classes as you can't hit people on the wall who can hit you because your character only knows how to aim at genitals (or lower) ... we'll ignore that you can see 3/4 of the enemy's body.
    • Throw siege around like candy because you can get it from jumping puzzles that you didn't really do because Mesmers are portaling people in large droves to the end ... they also get more "Tokens of Jumping" from this.
  • sPvP
    • Sadly, these little one-off matches are where the highest level of skill can be leveraged ... however
    • Even the "pros" have been complaining about how it quickly gets boring. There are mechanics in each one, but they are largely ignored in favor of simply capping and controlling the points. Lack of any real variation
    • Anyone who sPvP'd a large amount already has collected the large amount of skins available.
    • Pick-up matches are, again, mindless zergfests because all they have to do is <tab> - auto-attack because numbers is what really matters in most cases
    • It is still far from being esport-worthy ... randomness, imbalances, etc. ... claimed to be esport quality combat and here we are over half a year later. Heroes of Newerth, another Moba amongst a sea of Moba games, was picked up quicker than this.

Edited by Sebrent_Tehroth, 16 May 2013 - 03:21 PM.


#2 RipJack

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 03:46 PM

I agree with most of this post, it's well thought out and points out the elephant(s) in the room, thank you.

Even though I agree with a lot, I still love gw2, it's probably a false hope of the game getting better but I've reserved myself for new content. I just hope Arena Net can gather their thoughts on combat and content and see what makes gw2 actually fun.

#3 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:01 PM

I can't help but agree with most of what you're saying OP.  I guess at this point, though, I wonder what you're trying to do here.  These issues are not new, nor are you the first to post about them.  If you're really that unsatisfied with the game, why not just stop playing?  YOu could even try asking for a refund and including the text from your post as a reason for why you deserve one.  Pointing out these issues to other players, most of whom are already aware of them, will do very little to get Anet to change anything.

The unfortunate truth is that while GW2 is a still a good game, it really is a completely flawed game that abandoned much of its promise for mediocrity. At this point, there are so many things to fix that is really only a matter of time (I'm guessing a few years, tops) before Anet throws in the towel and announces they'll be working on designing GW3 for the next 6 years instead of maintaining GW2.  Anet is a great company that suffers from a fatal flaw in the long term: they refuse the remember the lessons they've learned in the past and keep making the same mistakes.  This was true in GW1 and its true in GW2.

#4 El Duderino

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:07 PM

View PostCaptain Bulldozer, on 16 May 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

Anet is a great company that suffers from a fatal flaw in the long term: they refuse the remember the lessons they've learned in the past and keep making the same mistakes.  This was true in GW1 and its true in GW2.

This. They keep trying to reinvent the wheel instead of making their already good wheel better. IN the end, they keep making new wheels that suck a little bit more than before. This is the opposite of progress.

#5 ChuyDog08

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:24 PM

OP, you made some good points.  I don't mind this type of "negative feedback" post.  I would actually call it a clear and precise "constructive criticism" post.  I agree to much of what you typed, but I still love the game.  I play the game for entertainment and hope one day a majority of these items are fixed.

I just wish Anet would announce an expansion date for sometime like Dec 2013.  That would give them time to concentrate on fixing the core issues in the game for 6 month instead of giving us monthly temporary content.  I think if we all knew there was going to be an expansion, we would be ok not getting new monthly content.  All they needed to do is tease us with some features like double sigils on two handed weapons, build templates, more gear, more dungeons, new class, or whatever.

I hope this tread can remain positive and you don't get flamed for your well thought out opinion.

Edited by ChuyDog08, 16 May 2013 - 04:25 PM.


#6 Sebrent_Tehroth

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:39 PM

Thanks for the comments, all.

I made the post simply as a list of my reasons why I've quit playing GW2 and am not happy with ArenaNet, a company I used to respect.

I posted it here because if I tried to post it on the GW2 forums, I'd simply get an infraction and the post deleted.

As I said, I'm happy for you if you still enjoy playing the game. I still enjoyed it when most of my guildmates stopped playing within about 3 months of release because they were bored with it.

Now, being more often than not bored, continuously annoyed with the above issues, and recently being treated poorly again by their community team (seriously, an apology from their community coordinator and then it happens 2 more times a few weeks later and I get ignored?!) ... I have stopped playing the game.

I don't believe in supporting people that I'm not a fan of ... I'm no longer a fan of ArenaNet
I don't believe in playing a game that I no longer find fun ... I no longer have fun playing GW2.

Here's to hoping Firefall, Wildstar, or some other game in the future is more fun and the companies continue to treat their communities better than ArenaNet does. If not, I'll simply have more free-time spent IRL.

Edited by Sebrent_Tehroth, 16 May 2013 - 04:40 PM.


#7 Veji

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:49 PM

I read the OP.  I know my opion won't help at all, but i have a feeling that WoW is as close to MMO perfection as anyone will ever get.  Now, thats not a bad thing, because all these other MMOs with "flaws" make for an interesting gaming experience.

You ever play FFXI?  Man, that game was HORRIBLE!  It was a pain to do anything and you always needed a group.  You had to have the holy trinity.  Needless to say, I didn't last more than 6 months in that game until WoW was released and i started playing WoW.

Now, off and on for the last few years, i can't believe it myself, but i MISS FFXI.  I miss the music, i miss the parties, i miss the weird Japanese inspired monsters that made no sense.  Every once in a great while, i fire it up, play for a day or two and realize the old glory and opportunity of FFXI is done and long dead.

The point is, flawed games can have this effect on people.  I don't want another WoW-experience.  I want something different.  Something that makes me fall in love with it like i did with FFXI and this game comes extremely, extremely close to that so i will definitely keep playing.

I'm sorry you are having tons of problems, but man, if it ain't doing it for ya, you'll be happier just moving on to something else.  Theres tons of MMOs out now.  Plenty to invest time into.  You just gotta roll with what ends up being your FFXI and just be ignorant-stupid-happy with it.

#8 Perm Shadow Form

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:55 PM

Try posting this on official forum, you'll get flamed for being a troll and they'll say you to go back to WoW.

#9 Sebrent_Tehroth

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:58 PM

@Veji:
Aye. I've played EQ1, DAoC, Shadowbane, Lineage II, EQ2, WoW, GW1, Rift, and GW2.

GW1 is the first one I've ever played for less than a year. Aside from Rift, it is the only one that I have left trusting the game company less.

Of all the MMOs, I'm only nolstalgic over EQ1 and DAoC ... and I hade less friends/family from IRL in those games than I have in the past several MMOs.

#10 Bohya

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:10 PM

ArenaNet really need to take every single aspect of the game and improve upon it as much they can, one by one. The game itself feels far from polished and there is just so much that they could expand upon. They claim to have over a hundred staff in the new team. I don't know much about the coding that goes into developing an MMO, but from what I can tell, there must be only a small fraction of that hundred staff ever working on the game at a time. They promised so much before the game came out and it's fallen increadibly short of even the lowest expectations. I thought ArenaNet were supposed to be different...

#11 El Duderino

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:14 PM

View PostBohya, on 16 May 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

ArenaNet really need to take every single aspect of the game and improve upon it as much they can, one by one. The game itself feels far from polished and there is just so much that they could expand upon. They claim to have over a hundred staff in the new team. I don't know much about the coding that goes into developing an MMO, but from what I can tell, there must be only a small fraction of that hundred staff ever working on the game at a time. They promised so much before the game came out and it's fallen increadibly short of even the lowest expectations. I thought ArenaNet were supposed to be different...

I expect you to get the typical - how do you know what they are working on or you don't know how many people it takes to make a game kind of responses.

Before those happen, I would ask anyone who thinks that to tell me how Prophecies was so much more polished and balanced with a much smaller staff. Didn't they have like less than 50 people work on that game?

#12 Veji

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:16 PM

View PostPerm Shadow Form, on 16 May 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

Try posting this on official forum, you'll get flamed for being a troll and they'll say you to go back to WoW.

I haven't been, but i can imagine.  I tend to like D3 and when people went off on that game about how it doesn't have all the trappings of an MMO, it just put me off on ever going to offical game forums again.

If you have contructed crticism for a game, i can dig that and i even wish the devs would respond to each bit of it, but when you have thousands of posts that give constructive criticism, its almost maddening to do.  I wouldn't want to do it.

So i imagine that they read the posts and make tallies of how many people say "x" is an issues, "y" is an issue, and "z" is an issue, then try to fix the issues with the highest tallies.  Me personally, i think it would be great to fix everything, but theres alot going on in the background of any given company that gamers don't, nor should they, see.

Thats why i'm saying, if you're hoping to be heard, i wouldn't get your hopes up high.  It is what it is.  Its not worth stressing over.  No form of entertainment is.  I got dragged into the hype of Defiance and i bought that game.  Maaaaan, its terrible.  Either i just don't get it or it just doesn't entertain me, but i played it a few times and now it sits on my desktop doing nothing.  I have no problems not playing a game i don't have fun with and i work too much and have too much RL crap to pursue having the game company change it.

#13 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:18 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 May 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

Before those happen, I would ask anyone who thinks that to tell me how Prophecies was so much more polished and balanced with a much smaller staff. Didn't they have like less than 50 people work on that game?

Quite a bit less than 50 if I remember correctly. AND those people designed the game engine from scratch, whereas GW2 is a modified version of the engine built to run GW1. I'm sure the new modified engine is more technically complex (after all just getting 3D in there is a big leap), but with such a huge growth in staff over the last few years, it does kinda call into question just what Anet is doing with their talent.  We've heard claims that designing a dynamic event chain takes something like 4 times as much work as designing a quest in GW1 did, but those chains often have 4 distinct stages which are very "quest-like".  I'm guessing that WvW is a pretty huge resource hog, as that's the one that has the most technical limitations as far as I can tell.

However, if you do your homework about Anet as a company, you find a lot of criticism to the effect of "bad or ineffectual upper management", "lack of leadership", "lack of pay incentives for success", not being able to set reasonable deadline and an overall lack of supervision/support for the employees.  Many of the new employees are likely not having a huge amount of experience, since the pay at Anet is reportedly far lower than at other comparable companies.  Now, all of this is hear-say to me; I've never worked at Arenanet.  But if even some of this stuff is true, its not hard to see how it adds up to less polish, overblown hype and eventual player boredom.

#14 Lunacy Polish

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:12 PM

I for the record do not agree with absolutely every point made above and am mostly okay with a good deal of the game.  But I don't wish to quibble with them here there's other threads where I've made my peace or someone else said the same thing I thought already so I won't derail this with a point by point.  But some of these are just out of place - no trinity was the whole concept, we all knew that going in.  The fact it didn't work out quite like they thought it would is another set of issues.

However that's a very thorough (if not exhaustive) criticism Arenanet needs to see.  Even if I don't always agree 100% with some of these complaints, the underlying frustrations with nearly all of them I do sympathize with (honeslty I think some of these would go away on their own if others were solved).

And part of it is they do need to re-examine their conceptual roadmap, so to speak.

#15 Sebrent_Tehroth

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:30 PM

@Veji: I don't really care if they hear me. My wife never really showed interest in GW2. Even my 7yr old has already lost interest in it by level 10 on several characters. I should just have them test things for me before I spend so much time in them :-p Any game my wife has loved, I've liked as well (if in a genre I like).

@Captain Bulldozer: do you have any links for that information you claim in your post? I'm a stickler for having such at-hand before I believe that sort of information. It also lends you more credit as a person who backs up things they state.

@Lunacy Polish: I appreciate your post. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on every point because people like/dislike different things and to varying degrees. You may be correct that some of the frustrations could be coupled and thus solving the root of the issue could dispel the others. I'm just tired of waiting when all I'm seeing is what, to me, looks like things only getting worse.

Heck, at first I thought the whole living story thing was sort of cool. Then I realized that it was setting up a "different dungeon to farm for a limited time". Which people were doing and then "making bank". Now you can be a little farther behind the gold inflation curve, or join in on the same crap.

Edited by Sebrent_Tehroth, 16 May 2013 - 07:33 PM.


#16 Lunacy Polish

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:37 PM

View PostVeji, on 16 May 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

The point is, flawed games can have this effect on people.  I don't want another WoW-experience.  I want something different.  Something that makes me fall in love with it like i did with FFXI and this game comes extremely, extremely close to that so i will definitely keep playing.

In a system as complex as an MMO or even most of my favorite single player games, you have the unenviable problem of invariably and unwittingly creating a multi modal optimization challenge for the users that no one intended.

The creators can't possibly foresee all possible inputs and outputs of the system.  When you get a few hundred, never mind a few thousand, players comparing notes however (and the game itself has a freakin' chat built right in to facilitate this!), it doesn't take much for their collective efforts to cut the figurative Gorian knot the developers intended for us.

Every single game is therefore going to have a fundamental shortcoming, several actually.  By design some things are going to suck bad.  All we can ever hope for is the good to outweigh the bad.

But that doesn't mean there's no reason to look at the problems.  I consider myself a GW2 fan but man alive does it have problems.  When someone can present it without crying and raging too much I appreciate it.

#17 Sebrent_Tehroth

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:17 PM

When it comes to "pro gaming" (or "esports"), I think this Extra Credits video does a good job of explaining what is required.



Then, when I look at what games that are still in beta are already doing, I can't help but think even more about ArenaNet largely missing the "esports boat ".

Look at what Firefall created before finishing fleshing out their open world content
http://www.youtube.c...&v=ZrrCa6VN0Is#!

Look at Smite and how they not only have built-in support for Twitch and has rewards for players who stream their gaming experiences
http://www.hirezstud.../smitegame/home

Why is it that these and so many other companies "get it", but ArenaNet doesn't?

Why is it that I see so many "standard operating procedures" that are done by a majority of gaming companies, but we're left with evidence that leads one to think that ArenaNet does not?

Just further thoughts on my beefs <_<

Edited by Sebrent_Tehroth, 16 May 2013 - 08:18 PM.


#18 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:19 PM

View PostSebrent_Tehroth, on 16 May 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

@Captain Bulldozer: do you have any links for that information you claim in your post? I'm a stickler for having such at-hand before I believe that sort of information. It also lends you more credit as a person who backs up things they state.

Much of what I have said is common knowledge within the GW2 community, so links aren't hard to come by.  Though, some of the information came from Anet's blog which has reportedly now been shut down.  If you're talking about the information regarding the company from my second post, as I said its all hear-say to me.  But you can get information by reading their employee reviews on glassdoor (http://www.glassdoor...ews-E255820.htm).  There are only a handful of them, some very positive and some pretty negative, plus the information contained there suffers from a survey bias, but its a place to start.

I'd like to add to your original list, if I may.  I think DEs are a fine idea, but ruined in implementation more often than not.  The rewards are generic, so there's not much reason to do them after hitting high levels (except for the loot from the mobs on occasion) and many of them follow the same basic formulas.  Because of that, it makes the world feel decently "alive" while leveling, but once you don't need XP anymore, players could care less about whether Harpies ransack a village rat-men or not.  Remember quests in GW1 that had predetermined, fixed rewards?  Even though it was less dynamic, I have come to realize I preferred it much more than DEs on the whole. Now, if DEs were properly rewarding, with at least level appropriate gear in the lower levels (so you don't have to gain 10 levels without seeing a useful drop come up), that would at least be a start.

#19 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:44 PM

View PostCaptain Bulldozer, on 16 May 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

I'd like to add to your original list, if I may.  I think DEs are a fine idea, but ruined in implementation more often than not.  The rewards are generic, so there's not much reason to do them after hitting high levels (except for the loot from the mobs on occasion) and many of them follow the same basic formulas.  Because of that, it makes the world feel decently "alive" while leveling, but once you don't need XP anymore, players could care less about whether Harpies ransack a village rat-men or not.  Remember quests in GW1 that had predetermined, fixed rewards?  Even though it was less dynamic, I have come to realize I preferred it much more than DEs on the whole. Now, if DEs were properly rewarding, with at least level appropriate gear in the lower levels (so you don't have to gain 10 levels without seeing a useful drop come up), that would at least be a start.

As I said here:
http://www.guildwars...t/#entry2193199
I think that DEs are a superb replacement for killing trash, but they fail at being a replacement for quests.

#20 Draino

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:20 PM

View PostCaptain Bulldozer, on 16 May 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

...employee reviews on glassdoor (http://www.glassdoor...ews-E255820.htm).  

Wow.

#21 FoxBat

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:54 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 May 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

Before those happen, I would ask anyone who thinks that to tell me how Prophecies was so much more polished and balanced with a much smaller staff.

Because you didn't play PvE nor PvP "seriously" at that time. The GW2 paradigm can be boring, but it's not full of Hall of Heroes type gimmick builds, or invincitanks soloing elite missions because that's more efficient drop farming.

Edited by FoxBat, 16 May 2013 - 09:55 PM.


#22 woeye

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:23 PM

Great post, thanks. And sadly I have to agree with most of your points.

I really don't get it. They have a very solid foundation. But for some reason they're not able to get their act together. It seems they've already given up internally and at least trying to get some more money out of the game by adding new stuff to the gem store.

Does GW2 really generate so few income? Can't they hire some more developers focusing on bug fixes and class balance?

Take SOE and Planetside 2, for example. SOE is doing an awesome job here. Lots of communication, open roadmap, etc. Yes, PS2 had and still has issues. But it's getting better with each patch.

I had so much high hopes for GW2. But ANet is one of my biggest disappointments in the recent years :(

#23 Soki

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:33 PM

There is no polish.
No depth.
No interest in quality.
No movements to address the core issues with the game.

#24 Sebrent_Tehroth

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:33 PM

View PostCaptain Bulldozer, on 16 May 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Much of what I have said is common knowledge within the GW2 community, so links aren't hard to come by.  Though, some of the information came from Anet's blog which has reportedly now been shut down.  If you're talking about the information regarding the company from my second post, as I said its all hear-say to me.  But you can get information by reading their employee reviews on glassdoor (http://www.glassdoor...ews-E255820.htm).  There are only a handful of them, some very positive and some pretty negative, plus the information contained there suffers from a survey bias, but its a place to start.

I'd like to add to your original list, if I may.  I think DEs are a fine idea, but ruined in implementation more often than not.  The rewards are generic, so there's not much reason to do them after hitting high levels (except for the loot from the mobs on occasion) and many of them follow the same basic formulas.  Because of that, it makes the world feel decently "alive" while leveling, but once you don't need XP anymore, players could care less about whether Harpies ransack a village rat-men or not.  Remember quests in GW1 that had predetermined, fixed rewards?  Even though it was less dynamic, I have come to realize I preferred it much more than DEs on the whole. Now, if DEs were properly rewarding, with at least level appropriate gear in the lower levels (so you don't have to gain 10 levels without seeing a useful drop come up), that would at least be a start.

Wow ... a good bit of the stuff in there makes sense with what I'm seeing as a player.

It's my job to go into difference Business Units' code, systems, etc. and find the problems ... though usually with a security focus. What I've seen as a player and from reading that match up with what I see from bad Business Units.

For those surprised, I highly recommend taking a look at what current and previous employees have said about ArenaNet. I've noticed that even the overwhelmingly positive ones don't rank the pay/compensation highly. Many still rank it pretty low.

The long negative one matches up with what I was saying about a bad business unit.

On another note ... I'm quite amused (but feel sorry for players) that I checked my guild's website and saw a new thread titled:

Is anyone else having trouble logging in?

and within is:

Quote

I was playing a few minutes ago, when Guild Wars 2 informed me that my "Trial Account" was not able to access the area I was in, then it kicked me out of the game. Now when I try to log in again I get an error message "The game client was unable to connect to the log-in server. Please restart your client and try again."

Is this happening to anyone else, or is it exclusively on my side?

Quote

I cant get in right now either

Quote

Oops! Shoulda checked their Facebook first

Quote

We're aware of the login issues and we're working on it. Don't worry, we didn't just convert all of you to free trial players! ~RB2


I can't imagine what they were doing that screwed that up ... "well done" randomly locking out the user-base from the game.

#25 Featherman

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:36 PM

tl'dr slapdash design with little or no ground-up understanding of each gameplay element.

Combat is a mix of the superficial elements of action and MMO. There's very little depth to it as a result, because it's really just MMO combat with movement for the sake of movement and contrived dodging mechanics. It's safe to say that the devs are likely struggling with the actual content and balancing because they have no idea the kind of mess they've gotten themselves into with the combat system. I know I would be if I did the same things they did.

Imbalances derive from giving professions access to combat elements that aren't balanced at a base level. For instance Eles succeed in PvP because they can dominate through mobility. Similarly, Warriors suffer because all classes are free to move and attack at the same time while being able to cancel channels that other wise root and make them vulnerable. The devs try to balance movement by throwing cc everywhere, and that just makes combat a mess in PvP and adds a useless skills in PvE.

DEs hardly help to simulate a dynamic and living world, because all they really are are static quests on timers and without the need to pick up and turn in. the latter actually making the experience feel less alive and the process more akin to data entry. "Wait and kill X every X minute for X amount of exp and gold" sound familiar. The static narratives behind each DEs veil this very thinly.

WvW is being designed with the mentality that you can get players to play by chasing objectives and rewards. The mindless zerging this causes is a turn off to players actually playing for strategy and group cooperation. This style of gameplay is fine for some people and it's great for them that they still enjoy it, but it isn't something that's appealing many players. Several large communities of dedicated WvW players have left just a month ago and the communities that remain are growing smaller each day.

/end rant

#26 El Duderino

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:41 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 16 May 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

Because you didn't play PvE nor PvP "seriously" at that time. The GW2 paradigm can be boring, but it's not full of Hall of Heroes type gimmick builds, or invincitanks soloing elite missions because that's more efficient drop farming.

I did play Prophecies before Factions. And, no, there were no gimmick OP builds. IWAY was gimmick but not OP. The balance was excellent. So much so that it probably became a little too stale, especially in GvG.

Also, I don't remember any invincitanks soloing elite missions. In fact, I don't even remember elite missions. What are you talking about, UW or FoW???

If you give me examples of what you are saying, I would be happy to discuss it, but merely saying it existed during Prophecies when most people would disagree kind of puts you on the hook to give some clear examples.

EDIT: Ill give one example of my own: name me one gimmick build that made it to the GWWC? I can't think of one, not even ranger spike.

Edited by El Duderino, 17 May 2013 - 12:20 AM.


#27 Brunella

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 12:50 AM

View PostCaptain Bulldozer, on 16 May 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

I'd like to add to your original list, if I may.  I think DEs are a fine idea, but ruined in implementation more often than not.  The rewards are generic, so there's not much reason to do them after hitting high levels (except for the loot from the mobs on occasion) and many of them follow the same basic formulas.  Because of that, it makes the world feel decently "alive" while leveling, but once you don't need XP anymore, players could care less about whether Harpies ransack a village rat-men or not.  Remember quests in GW1 that had predetermined, fixed rewards?  Even though it was less dynamic, I have come to realize I preferred it much more than DEs on the whole. Now, if DEs were properly rewarding, with at least level appropriate gear in the lower levels (so you don't have to gain 10 levels without seeing a useful drop come up), that would at least be a start.

If I may I would add that for someone starting to play from new this game (me), DE are very lonely and some of them impossible to do when there are  champions always at the same spot! Where are all the players?
I must say GW2 starts to feel more like a job than a game .....where is the fun? O.o

#28 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:34 AM

View PostBrunella, on 17 May 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

If I may I would add that for someone starting to play from new this game (me), DE are very lonely and some of them impossible to do when there are  champions always at the same spot! Where are all the players?
I must say GW2 starts to feel more like a job than a game .....where is the fun? O.o

Your experience is evidence supporting my claim.  Most of those events are neither especially rewarding or original to players who have already leveled to the max.  While they may be "fun" from a certain point of view, the lack of decent reward will almost always stop people from doing them.  You do occasionally see fully leveled people doing them because of dailies, or helping out a friend/guildie.. but that's often it.  Even leveling alts can be a chore because of this.  In my view, it is one of the most important issues in the game that needs a fix, because it is core to the very game itself.

#29 Sebrent_Tehroth

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:55 AM

It saddens me that most game developers/designers can't think outside of the box when it comes to things in games.

Why must we have different tiers of crafting gear such that copper < iron < steel < darksteel < mithril < orichalcum? Why not have different pros and cons associated with making gear out of each of the different materials. Take a look at what Red 5 is doing with Firefall and crafting. They are making it so that sometimes you want to use lower quality items because of the tradeoffs. That is a smart thing to do. Why? Because it gives people reasons to be in any of the various zones in the game regardless of their level, power, etc..

I agree on the dynamic events. They aren't really dynamic. They are simply static quests with no questgiver (usually, sometimes there is), no turn-in, and are most often activated on a time schedule (except those with a questgiver/starter).

#30 Burch84

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 03:12 AM

View PostSoki, on 16 May 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

There is no polish.
No depth.
No interest in quality.
No movements to address the core issues with the game.

Soki we finally agree on something - sad that it has to be that GW2 stinks!  I get more enjoyment out of reading the forms than playing the game.  Are they still giving out refunds?




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