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[X-Post] Present and Future Direction of the Game


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#1 MazingerZ

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 04:44 PM

https://forum-en.gui...ion-of-the-Game

C&P'd for those blocked, but spoiler-tagged to de-spam.  It is hefty, but a good read, IMO.

Spoiler

Edited by MazingerZ, 24 May 2013 - 04:44 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#2 Featherman

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 05:58 PM

It's a veritable phenomenon seeing someone use this level critical thinking on the official forums.

There are a few points I disagree with. I don't disagree about the problems they attempt to point out, just that they're in the same ballpark but off base.

3 & 4

Both can problems can be traced to fundamental design flaws of the combat system. Put simply the combat system adheres to the attrition based combat mechanics of traditional MMOs (and also GW1) while trying simulate the reactive feel of an action based system. It tries to accomplish the latter by removing rooting to all forms of attacks, rather than adding a fixed or semi-fixed pattern to each of them. Additionally the devs failed to design hit mechanics sensible enough for an action MMO, likely due to engine restrictions. Even though there are tells to each boss, their attacks don't quite synch up with their animations. The hitbox for each attack isn't determined by the model but rather a generic shape (such as a circle or cone) that occurs after an animation.

The result of this is a combat system with very contradictory design elements. Unlike in action games, players aren't given a "fair chance" to react most of the time due to hit mechanics that aren't sensible sensible. while bosses and mobs are designed in vain of action game bosses where players are punished heavily for not dodging. This conflicts with attrition mechanics inherent in MMO combat, because there's little room for attrition when attacks take you down in one hit without fair warning. And then there's also the game's auto-homing mechanics for projectiles which trivialize movement and can themselves be trivialized by exploiting movement (Guardian's Scepter 1, Warrior's downstate 1).

It's no surprise that  the most popular classes are popular because they mitigate the game's "challenge" by outfight blocking them (guardian's projectile blocks), bursting them down before they can do anything (Warriors 100blades/Mesmer's Time Warp) and re-positioning them into that AOE burst (Mesmer's Into the Void, Guardian's Binding Blades). There's also the fact that Guardian's can trick the AI into grouping up and attack them with their "anchor" build, and these guardians can tank and survive due to attrition mechanics. The meta of PvE literally revolves around the exploitation of AI and complete nullification of what would otherwise be considered challenge.

Wow... I did  not think I'd rant that much about two bullet points. I think I'll comment on the rest once I get home.

Edited by Featherman, 24 May 2013 - 07:35 PM.


#3 ScorpioSpork

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 12:11 AM

That is a very well written post, and I gave it some love on the official forums. I also agree with Featherman.

I feel like GW2 is so close to being awesome, but it still needs fixing. I know Anet is capable of addressing these issues (there are a lot of great features in GW1 that have yet to make it to GW2). Maybe I'm naive, but I'm still hopeful and patient.

Anyway, thanks for linking to that post (and that's for writing it if it's yours).

#4 Desild

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 12:29 AM

It's like I had a lobotomy and you smeared my cerebral matter all over your thread post. (And I mean this in a good way!)

So many valid points and so eloquently put. Next to that poster, I'm but a mewling calf.

Edited by Desild, 25 May 2013 - 12:32 AM.


#5 Tranquility

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:11 AM

A long winded post by someone unhappy with the game that may or may not even receive a response, and if it does, it will be a couple lines of vague buzzwords followed by thanking them for the feedback.

It's been happening since the beta. Nothing to really see or rally behind. ANet is happy with the game and it's current direction.

And in all of that overwritten crap, he barely even mentions actual flaws with the game. Most of his suggestions are at such a superficial level that I can't even bring myself to read them.

Edited by Tranquility, 25 May 2013 - 01:14 AM.


#6 lmaonade

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:17 AM

View PostFeatherman, on 24 May 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

It's a veritable phenomenon seeing someone use this level critical thinking on the official forums.

That was my first thought when I finished reading lol.

As for your criticisms, yes the design of the combat system as a whole causes a lot of problems, but since that's unlikely to change, designing bosses to counteract problems with combat is pretty feasible imo.

#7 Featherman

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 12:06 PM

View Postlmaonade, on 25 May 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

That was my first thought when I finished reading lol.

As for your criticisms, yes the design of the combat system as a whole causes a lot of problems, but since that's unlikely to change, designing bosses to counteract problems with combat is pretty feasible imo.
I don't think they could ever design bosses that would feel as tight if they had thought their combat system through. LIke the MWF bosses, they'll likely always cheap imitations of action game BAMS. They just won't feel right. Furthermore, the problems extend to profession design. They're going to need to revamp those as well.

#8 El Duderino

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 12:30 PM

If they managed to fix the combat in this game, it would go from like a 4/10 to a 8/10 for me and I would buy a plethora of gem store items in support.

#9 Gilles VI

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:38 PM

View PostTranquility, on 25 May 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

Most of his suggestions are at such a superficial level that I can't even bring myself to read them.

Perhaps you should read them before replying, as he actually makes a couple of very good points.

#10 Loperdos

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:52 PM

View PostTranquility, on 25 May 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

A long winded post by someone unhappy with the game that may or may not even receive a response, and if it does, it will be a couple lines of vague buzzwords followed by thanking them for the feedback.

It's been happening since the beta. Nothing to really see or rally behind. ANet is happy with the game and it's current direction.

And in all of that overwritten crap, he barely even mentions actual flaws with the game. Most of his suggestions are at such a superficial level that I can't even bring myself to read them.

^^ Not sure if serious....or trolling...

On-topic: Wow.  Just wow.  This post was very well written, respectful and well thought out.  I think it points out some of the things that are wrong with the game, but that can be fixed.  Boss design is one that I'm particularly hoping for.  Last time I checked, giving boss mobs 2589347209834762390486758906745 HP, does not equal good boss design.  From my days playing all sorts of other MMOs, good boss design was always something that actually involved strategy and some actual thinking; or at least some semblance of it anwyay.  The boring ones were all tank n' spank.  It seems that quite a few of the boss fights here are a variant on tank n' spank, since there is no actual tank or ability to tank in the game.  Perhaps in GW2 it should be renamed dodge n' damage.  Or something.

#11 Tranquility

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:53 PM

View PostLoperdos, on 25 May 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

^^ Not sure if serious....or trolling...

On-topic: Wow.  Just wow.  This post was very well written, respectful and well thought out.  I think it points out some of the things that are wrong with the game, but that can be fixed.  Boss design is one that I'm particularly hoping for.  Last time I checked, giving boss mobs 2589347209834762390486758906745 HP, does not equal good boss design.  From my days playing all sorts of other MMOs, good boss design was always something that actually involved strategy and some actual thinking; or at least some semblance of it anwyay.  The boring ones were all tank n' spank.  It seems that quite a few of the boss fights here are a variant on tank n' spank, since there is no actual tank or ability to tank in the game.  Perhaps in GW2 it should be renamed dodge n' damage.  Or something.

Because how could anyone possibly disagree that armor clipping is not one of the major flaws with this game?

The post is nothing but "keep doing what you're doing, buzzword buzzword buzzword, fix armor clipping"

Edited by Tranquility, 25 May 2013 - 09:54 PM.





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