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How to turn GW2 into GW1 without breaking the game


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#1 theoxygenthief

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 09:06 PM

This thread is for everyone who agrees that GW1 was a better game than GW2. If you don't agree, stop reading now please.

The idea here is to build ideas on how to improve GW2 based on gameplay strengths from GW1. Please let's keep the Q.Q and flaming to a minimum, and don't feed the trolls (I realise asking this on forums is mostly pointless)

What I really want is constructive input, I'm hoping to build and improve on this OP and then eventually even send it to A-net or just marvel in its glory

Some reasons why GW1 was a better game IMO:
- Leveling a char to max took less than a week for many/most passionate players
- Emphasis was on skills and skill synergy, not gear and DPS
- Classes had well defined rolls, strengths and weaknesses
- Less grind (ironic, I know)
- Monsters/Enemies were subject to same game mechanics & skill mechanics as players
- Open world challenges did not boil down to "throw more bodies at the problem" solutions
- Half the skill bar was not weapon locked
- (WIP, please feel free to add to the list)


The hardest fundamental flaws to fix in GW2, IMO:
- The dodge mechanism negates a lot of other gameplay mechanics
- The weapon locked skill bar
- The DPS, condition, buff imbalance and thus emphasis on DPS builds or GTFO
- The open world lending itself to Zerg solutions
- The gear grind
- The new Trinity - Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer (debateable and with exceptions I know, discuss that elsewhere please)
- (WIP, please feel free to add to the list)
- 1 Heal skill per class

My proposed steps to improve GW2 gradually without breaking the game, in cronological order:
The open world idea is novel but dead boring in effect -accept it, move forward
Leave the open world for leveling and storytelling. Bring back the emphasis on instances for end game content.

Anet Make up your minds and decide who this game is for, and which parts are for who
It is possible to cater for both casual and hardcore players, but you cannot cater for both in every inch of the game. One of the greatest failings of this games is that it tries to please everyone all of the time and thus ends up frustrating everyone almost all of the time. This paradigm shift is possibly the most important thing that needs to happen. Focus is incredibly important.

Hire new writers
The current story is an insult. Predictable, black and white and cut and dry, devoid of important themes and any sincere thought. (Yes, this step is a bit cheeky, ignore it please if you don't agree)

Monthly updates are a huge disaster, revert to the expansions model
It took me all of 2 hours to finish this month's new dungeon, same last month. Seriously, why bother?

Introduce dynamic dungeons & rework existing dungeons accordingly
Use Fractals as a departure point for all dungeons, it is the closest thing to engaging content this game has IMO. Introduce semi-randomised mob groups and possibly semi-randomised layouts. Keep the concepts of tiered difficulty and rewards. DO: tier rewards aesthetically. DO NOT: tier them with stats (infused vs ascended vs exotic).
(Note: randomised mobs might be difficult to implement at this point, but should be easier after the rework dodge step)

Make obtaining top stat but dead ugly gear dead easy
Do this through crafting - make it possible to craft ascended gear, remove ecto requirements from all standard max stat equipment recipes, decrease material costs.

Remove the magic find stat
Others have said it better but in essence it just adds nothing to the game.

Make accessory slot items visible
Maybe change it to tattoos, badges, banners, visual effects slots or something of the like, further de-emphasizing the stat-gear grind and emphasizing the aesthetic grind (which you can ignore if you are happy with max stat but ugly gear)

Rework the loot drop system completely
There are great recommendations on how to do this elsewhere, please post links and I will update this accordingly.

Empower conditions, buffs and debuffs
This will require a many pronged approach: Lower the damage on all or most direct damage skills (especially the big spikes), remove condition stack limits or raise the ceiling, Increase damage/duration of most conditions, Increase duration of most buffs and debuffs and reduce stacks on high stacking skills.

Make ALL mobs and bosses subject to same mechanics and skills as players WITH NO EXCEPTIONS
This IS a hard task, but the previous step should make it possible and sensible, the next step will further solve this problem.There is nothing worse than uninterruptable bosses imo.

Rework the dodge mechanics
Don't get me wrong, I like dodging. But it creates a too easy way to completely avoid brutal attacks, thus the developers have made brutal attacks all the more brutal and gave a huge HP pool to bosses to offset players dodging 80% of their attacks. I propose a successful dodge halving damage instead of completely negating it. These are probably the hardest changes to implement successfully as every single enemy and every skill in the game will have to be rebalanced accordingly, but it will also add the most gameplay reward IMO. Smaller damage spikes, less predictable completely negatable boss attacks, more emphasis on survival instead of plain DPS. Better healing will be most crucial with this change - I propose either making healing skills cast instant with faster recharges, or adding more healing effects on current non-healing skills (or both). (reworking healing skills might be a whole step on its own)

Introduce a skill tree to weapons
Pretty much what it says in the title, further recommendations or alternatives welcome. The idea is to start with pretty basic direct damage skills in almost all slots, making more sophisticated synergistic builds unlockable. It could be nice to introduce a GW1 style skill hunt system here.

This is a WIP. I'm dead tired now and looking forward to constructive feedback. Will add to this as we go along

#2 Mastruq

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 09:30 PM

Uh while I agree with some of the suggestions and find some others at least worth considering, doing all that does in no way turn the game into GW1.

Here's a super important part of GW1 you didnt include: dont seperate your players by servers that they can only leave by paying gems (yea guesting, but you cant do some stuff with that and its limited). It was ok before they limited it to once per week because of WvW hoping.

But anyway, turning this game into anything I'd recognize as GW1 is about as likely as turning Diablo 3 into something as good as Diablo 2 (in case that's not obvious, it is impossible).

#3 theoxygenthief

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 09:45 PM

View PostMastruq, on 28 May 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

Here's a super important part of GW1 you didnt include: dont seperate your players by servers that they can only leave by paying gems (yea guesting, but you cant do some stuff with that and its limited). It was ok before they limited it to once per week because of WvW hoping.

I don't understand why you feel having all players on one server is critical to GW2 being a great game, but thanks for the input.

#4 UNTYPABLExNAME

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 03:18 AM

View Posttheoxygenthief, on 28 May 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

Some reasons why GW1 was a better game IMO:
- Emphasis was on skills and skill synergy, not gear and DPS
- Classes had well defined rolls, strengths and weaknesses

Or an alternate, but equal view:
- in GW1 you could make a build that made you invincible (ie an I Win Button), but in GW2 you have to stay active (omg it's an action RPG)
- in GW1 a player could be a good warrior but lousy healer, but in GW2 a good player will be good at any class

I only bring that up there because we don't want to break the game.

To combat the "Berzerker Focus", it could be required to use one damage type to get a boss down, but required to use another damage type to kill a boss.  Damage type can mean sharpedge/dull weapons, condition, ranged, magic, or perhaps new ones in the future(?).

To combat zergs, they could turn friendly fire on.  eg 3 warriors standing right next to a target and swinging fiercely, should be hitting each other and hurting themselves.  An elementalist casting meteor shower in the battlefield will also hit allies.  This would also push players toward playing more alertly.

#5 Gerroh

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 03:53 AM

View PostUNTYPABLExNAME, on 29 May 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

To combat zergs, they could turn friendly fire on.  eg 3 warriors standing right next to a target and swinging fiercely, should be hitting each other and hurting themselves.  An elementalist casting meteor shower in the battlefield will also hit allies.  This would also push players toward playing more alertly.

I was thinking about this for awhile. For some time I concluded friendly fire should not be in most games because there is too much potential for griefing and/or dumbassery.
Then I started playing DotA 2, which has tons of potential for friendly fire. Not necessarily direct damage, but anyone who has played that game knows what I am talking about.
So clearly friendly fire to some extent works fine in a game like DotA 2, so would it work in an MMO? Probably not. Maybe in dungeons, but a lot of skills are designed without friendly fire in mind. I think friendly fire being enabled in the open world portion of GW2 would go something like... everyone acts with complete disregard for everyone else's safety; this means anyone who isn't long-range ends up dying a lot more. People dislike dying lots, so everyone starts playing long-range, with the same reckless disregard as before. PvE becomes a long-range idiot-fest.

Oh, yeah, and the culling in pve would make this an even bigger problem.

#6 ben911993

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 05:11 AM

View Posttheoxygenthief, on 28 May 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

I don't understand why you feel having all players on one server is critical to GW2 being a great game, but thanks for the input.

Without servers separating the players, I think the community of GW2 would feel much more active and lively. I had an idea about this a while ago that went along the lines of making all of the zones function like town districts did in GW1: each map has a certain cap of players, say maybe 1000 (I don't know what would be a realistic figure, just throwing something out there), and once the map gets to 900 players, anyone zoning in gets sent to "Queensdale District 2," or something similar. Then there would be an option to switch between the "districts" of whatever zone you're in.

This would consolidate servers and make mid level maps significantly less barren. I was clearing Snowden Drifts earlier, and in the 3-4 hours it took me to finish the map, I think I ran into all of maybe 4 players. As compared to when I was doing mid level maps at launch, and players were everywhere. It's incredibly depressing.

Another solution would be to make all areas of the game equally rewarding and worth any amount of time, but this would only do so much. I feel that a system of districts for the maps would be great for GW2, and would help bring players together.

A side note: in this idea, servers would remain intact for wvw purposes. It might even be possible to just consolidate 3 maps into districts based on wvw latter ranking, and whoever is holding the most points' worth of territory in wvw would have some kind of benefit, like access to certain vendors in high-level zones. This would be akin to how holding the Hall of Heroes in GW1 gave whichever territory (America, EU, Asia) access to FoW/UW. While I don't see that system being as viable as just consolidating all versions of a map across an entire territory, it is a thought.

#7 derkol

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 05:28 AM

View PostKrazzar, on 29 May 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

You could have saved quite a bit of time and space by just saying you wanted GW2 to be exactly like Neverwinter.

You cannot compare his post to neverwinter in related too guild wars 1. Neverwinter wont ever will be like guild wars 1. And if you haven't been a passionate player of guild wars 1 then you shouldn't even post. And if you did play it other then just buying it before guild wars 2 came out you still shouldn't post.

#8 Arewn

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 06:17 AM

I came in here thinking "please no... I quiet disliked GW1, contrary to what GW1 fans think, it was not objectively better then GW2, they just preferred its style/uniqueness". As it turns out, most of your suggestion don't have much (if anything) to do with turning it into GW1 at all, so I'm left wondering why you prefaced the thread with that kind of title and opening when you're just making general suggestions.
I've gotta agree with a few of those points though. In particular dungeon reworks, though I have a different opinion from the OP. What needs to be focused on is the encounters, because they are across the board garbage and simple to the point that you can dps through them without concern for mechanics.
Better encounter design (this applies to world bosses and champions) would help with many of the problems mentioned in the OP, including your problem with dodge roll and the zerker meta and dominance of the dps role. Reworking defiance and adding attacks that need interruption (undogeable/unblockable) to increase the importance of the control role, and perhaps allowing CC to partially affect bosses (they really can't be as susceptible to CC as players are... it would be far too easy for a 5 man group to CC lock bosses and trivialize them worse then they are now). Adding 'feints', attacks meant to strip Aegis and waste pre-emptive blocking, before more powerful abilities. Add phased fights (like Lupi), and more environmental interaction/tasks (fractal's dredge boss with the lava), requiring you to do things other then "hit em a lot, pew pew". Locking rooms during encounters so that you can't bug mobs out/fight multi-mob boss encounters one mob at a time.

Outside of encounter reworks, potentially they could also add a small statistical interaction with CC (eg. bonus vitality converts to %ignore of defiance, or a new stat which does that). On the side of the support role, they should reduce the accessibility of boons, some classes come by them too easily, and require you to spec for them more. Adding boon duration as a stat would also help in this regard.

I would go so far as to say they should also nerf or completely remove berseker gear (and other pure DPS gear). There will always be ways for organized groups to at least partially trivialize content once they've perfected their runs, but with damage as it is now it's too easy to 'berserker' through even the few encounters that do have decent mechanics. Nerfing (making berserker gear have pvp-style stat allocation) or removing pure dps gear (keep mentioning berserker gear since it's the biggest culprit) would reduce DPS across the board (which would require encounter re-balancing/boss hp) but more importantly it would force everyone to sub specialize, the way GW2 was originally suppose to be (everyone can do a bit of everything). Those in the DPS role would go for 'DMG, dmg, vit' gear, the vitality giving them more staying power so that they can stick around and damage more, 'tanks' would go for toughness to attract more agro, 'support' might now go for healing power due to the lack of pure damage alternatives (or boon duration if it's added). Gear with two none-damage stats (such as soldiers gear) would also be more viable since, comparatively, it wouldn't be as far behind in damage.

A note on your dodge idea, dodge already has the draw back of stopping DPS for it's duration, and it would be counter intuitive if you didn't avoid when "dodging an attack" and instead it just reduced damage. I feel it would be much better to give bosses endurance leaching attacks and increased use of weakness or other means to slow endurance regen. They could then use these abilities just before they use their important abilities, either requiring better endurance management/clensing, or making you eat the attack. Also, it's already easy to starve yourself of endurance in multi-mob situations, reducing the effectiveness of dodge to 50% dmg reduc would be too significant a change.
As an additional mechanic, an alternative that plays off your idea is a game wide (for all professions) 'blocking' mechanic which reduces damage taken by 50% while in use. For example, hold *insertkeybindhere* to raise your weapon in a defensive stance, reducing movement speed by X and dmg taken by X. Not sure how this would fit in to the game on top of dodge though xD Maybe make it for melee weapons only and give range something else?

#9 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 06:22 AM

Guild Wars 3.
And given how different GW2 is from GW1, I don't think GW3 would need to replace GW2: they could easily co-exist.

#10 Draino

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 06:41 AM

OP, nice post, I think you've got some interesting ideas.

I really like the concept of unlocking the weapon skills: different fighters within different cultures used similar weapons differently in history: e.g. swords used as stabbing weapons vs. slashing weapons, and different fencing techniques. One of the characteristics that made GW stand out was the plethora of viable builds one could bring to battle, and right now it seems to me that's missing in the current game, where we run the maps as perhaps twenty cloned versions of each other with only small variations. I realize not everyone might want us to go back all the way to "build wars," quite a few players were not too fond of so much variability, but it's possible this game has things a bit too channeled. Perhaps if more options were available, ANet could even supply a set of effective default build choices that players hoping to avoid spending too much time there could choose...these might even be crowd-sourced and instantly loadable?

Your idea on dodging almost made me fall out of my chair: I love it. Perhaps as a random chance, though; some dodges leave you untouched, some avoid partial damage in varying degrees. A worthy piece of theorycrafting, thanks!

Edited by Draino, 29 May 2013 - 06:46 AM.


#11 lalangamena

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 06:58 AM

for a start YES! , my comments in blue

View Posttheoxygenthief, on 28 May 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:


Some reasons why GW1 was a better game IMO:
- Leveling a char to max took less than a week for many/most passionate players - lots of people like leveling, and leveling in GW2 is easier for me than leveling in GW1, i was stuck on lvl18 for ages...
- Emphasis was on skills and skill synergy, not gear and DPS -- yes!
- Classes had well defined rolls, strengths and weaknesses --builds, not classes, but yes.
- Less grind (ironic, I know) -- gw2 doesnt feel grindy to me , because i dont care about legendaries
- Monsters/Enemies were subject to same game mechanics & skill mechanics as players --yes!
- Open world challenges did not boil down to "throw more bodies at the problem" solutions --yes!
- Half the skill bar was not weapon locked-- this will not change as devs stated they wanted to avoid skill mayhem that was in gw1
- (WIP, please feel free to add to the list)


The hardest fundamental flaws to fix in GW2, IMO:
- The dodge mechanism negates a lot of other gameplay mechanics-- agreee
- The weapon locked skill bar -- this is emotional issue based on nostalgy not a "real" one, if some weapon is lackluster anet  tweak it.
- The DPS, condition, buff imbalance and thus emphasis on DPS builds or GTFO -agree
- The open world lending itself to Zerg solutions -agree
- The gear grind - there is no real gear grind in game. both exotic and ascended are very easy to obtain. tPVP dont need any gear (ascended back is kinda grindy... but exotic is easy )
- The new Trinity - Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer (debateable and with exceptions I know, discuss that elsewhere please) -agree
- (WIP, please feel free to add to the list)
- 1 Heal skill per class - there is more than one heal per class, lots of classes can heal themselves with traited skill (thief invisibility, warrior shouts, guardian AH, necro inout DS, ele water attunement enter etc), regen boon, or combo fields+finishers.  

My proposed steps to improve GW2 gradually without breaking the game, in cronological order:

Anet Make up your minds and decide who this game is for, and which parts are for who --BIG YES!
It is possible to cater for both casual and hardcore players, but you cannot cater for both in every inch of the game. One of the greatest failings of this games is that it tries to please everyone all of the time and thus ends up frustrating everyone almost all of the time. This paradigm shift is possibly the most important thing that needs to happen. Focus is incredibly important.


Monthly updates are a huge disaster, revert to the expansions model --> agree
It took me all of 2 hours to finish this month's new dungeon, same last month. Seriously, why bother?

Introduce dynamic dungeons & rework existing dungeons accordingly --> agree and more....
Use Fractals as a departure point for all dungeons, it is the closest thing to engaging content this game has IMO. Introduce semi-randomised mob groups and possibly semi-randomised layouts. Keep the concepts of tiered difficulty and rewards. DO: tier rewards aesthetically. DO NOT: tier them with stats (infused vs ascended vs exotic).
(Note: randomised mobs might be difficult to implement at this point, but should be easier after the rework dodge step)

Make obtaining top stat but dead ugly gear dead easy -- obtaining gear is a no brainer and already very easy

Remove the magic find stat --yes!
Others have said it better but in essence it just adds nothing to the game.

Make accessory slot items visible -- not sure why....it will not improve the current game issues in any way
Maybe change it to tattoos, badges, banners, visual effects slots or something of the like, further de-emphasizing the stat-gear grind and emphasizing the aesthetic grind (which you can ignore if you are happy with max stat but ugly gear)


Empower conditions, buffs and debuffs --> yes, all non damaging CC conditions should be doubled in duration in order to be usable!
This will require a many pronged approach: Lower the damage on all or most direct damage skills (especially the big spikes), remove condition stack limits or raise the ceiling, Increase damage/duration of most conditions, Increase duration of most buffs and debuffs and reduce stacks on high stacking skills.

Make ALL mobs and bosses subject to same mechanics and skills as players WITH NO EXCEPTIONS -yes!
This IS a hard task, but the previous step should make it possible and sensible, the next step will further solve this problem.There is nothing worse than uninterruptable bosses imo.

Rework the dodge mechanics--> my suggestion is simple, make a 2 sec GCD (global cool down) on all weapon and utility skills after dodge. problem solved,
Don't get me wrong, I like dodging. But it creates a too easy way to completely avoid brutal attacks, thus the developers have made brutal attacks all the more brutal and gave a huge HP pool to bosses to offset players dodging 80% of their attacks. I propose a successful dodge halving damage instead of completely negating it. These are probably the hardest changes to implement successfully as every single enemy and every skill in the game will have to be rebalanced accordingly, but it will also add the most gameplay reward IMO. Smaller damage spikes, less predictable completely negatable boss attacks, more emphasis on survival instead of plain DPS. Better healing will be most crucial with this change - I propose either making healing skills cast instant with faster recharges, or adding more healing effects on current non-healing skills (or both). (reworking healing skills might be a whole step on its own)




#12 mostieAUS

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 07:30 AM

If you want GW2 to be GW1, there's actually a handy solution available to you. Play GW1.

#13 Swoopeh

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 07:54 AM

> The open world idea is novel but dead boring in effect -accept it, move forward

This is still a pretty new concept, I think it's a bit too early to say "well you've tried it for a few months, it doesn't work for everyone so let's give up". There's still a lot they can do with the open world mechanics (there was a great post a while back about zone-wide state of war for example). They do need to tinker with the timings and gating and stuff like adding world bosses that truly require tactics (and be clear about them) but have really good rewards, add new kinds of events, etc.

> Anet Make up your minds and decide who this game is for, and which parts are for who

I'm sure they can do both - open world for casual play and instances for hardcore. Yes that means the instances need reworking (but you've already covered that).

> Hire new writers

Yes please, possibly new voice actors too (though I think they can do better with some directing). Having a better executed story makes it more fun to replay as well.

> Monthly updates are a huge disaster, revert to the expansions model

Would be better if we can have both, or at least if they would stop removing content after 2 weeks. An MMO needs to expand to give people more options to play. Some temporary content isn't bad but so far everything has been except Fractals.

> Introduce dynamic dungeons & rework existing dungeons accordingly

Yes please, more tactics and different gameplay elements. Story dungeons to learn, explorable for the hardcore, that would give a nice progression from open world/leveling gameplay. If possible dungeons that scale from 1 - 5 or maybe even 10 players.

> Make obtaining top stat but dead ugly gear dead easy

This is already the case with exotics. Ascended gear is currently just the carrot to keep people playing, whether you need to grind for ascended armor when it's implemented needs to be seen. People do need a carrot though, something to work towards, but it would be vastly better if they would make that journey enjoyable instead of spending weeks grinding mobs trying to get lodestones or just buying them off the TP, for example. The scavenger hunt idea they had was along those lines, too bad thats still just an idea. At least "grinding" ectos is more fun as you get to kill random world bosses so a little more eventful.

> Remove the magic find stat

They've already agreed that this needs to change.

> Make accessory slot items visible

Not really a gameplay improvement but sure, why not :P

> Rework the loot drop system completely

I think a pass over the current drops could already be a big improvement. Maybe add random unique drops to dungeons.

> Empower conditions, buffs and debuffs

Yes, definitely. Also empower combo fields.

> Make ALL mobs and bosses subject to same mechanics and skills as players WITH NO EXCEPTIONS

Not sure if this would be an improvement, being able to tune mobs separately from players means it creates less issues when fixing player bugs or fixing mob bugs. This has happened in other games - a class got a buff which meant that mobs based on the same class all of a sudden started annihilating players, stuff like that needs to be taken into consideration.
They do need to get rid of defiant and use a better way to balance skills vs bosses or maybe just give players a separate interrupt mechanic that works. I still believe target cast bars on bosses would add to the gameplay so you can respond and make intelligent decisions (interrupt/dodge/move/immunity) instead of just plowing away with DPS and rotating your cooldowns in case the boss is facing you and doing a telegraphed attack thats completely hidden by explosions.

> Rework the dodge mechanics

I agree that there should be less damage completely negated by dodging but I don't think that taking half damage is a good solution. First off we need more mechanics like having to jump/position to avoid something. The shockwaves introduced with the molten facility (and the frog boss in SAB) was a good idea but they were also dodgable which was a bad idea. They need to be able to flag certain types of damage as undodgable (which would make sense as well) and have other ways of negating the damage, either fully or partially, to add new ways of playing.

> Introduce a skill tree to weapons

Would be nice but this would create so many potential balancing issues, apart from being a lot of work to implement, that it won't happen. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with weapon based skills and there's already some good synergy available, it can be expanded and improved upon in the future.

#14 Just Horus

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:19 AM

View PostGerroh, on 29 May 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

I was thinking about this for awhile. For some time I concluded friendly fire should not be in most games because there is too much potential for griefing and/or dumbassery.
Then I started playing DotA 2, which has tons of potential for friendly fire. Not necessarily direct damage, but anyone who has played that game knows what I am talking about.
So clearly friendly fire to some extent works fine in a game like DotA 2, so would it work in an MMO? Probably not. Maybe in dungeons, but a lot of skills are designed without friendly fire in mind. I think friendly fire being enabled in the open world portion of GW2 would go something like... everyone acts with complete disregard for everyone else's safety; this means anyone who isn't long-range ends up dying a lot more. People dislike dying lots, so everyone starts playing long-range, with the same reckless disregard as before. PvE becomes a long-range idiot-fest.

Oh, yeah, and the culling in pve would make this an even bigger problem.

I presume you mean players utilizing skills that could put you in harms way e.g. Tiny tossing you at inopportune times, OD astraling you, Shendelzere swapping you to save herself, etc. These only occur under 1 of 2 scenarios: you are aware of it ahead of time and utilizing it for the benefit of the team, in which case I would hardly call it 'friendly fire' or the teammate is griefing, in which case you can disable their help to prevent them from doing that (in addition to reporting them). So no, friendly fire does not work in DotA 2. In a similar vein, friendly fire would not work in Guild Wars 2. With such a large open world component, the possibility of griefing would be way too high.

So I agree with your presumption that Guild Wars 2 would not benefit from friendly fire but I don't agree with you that it works in DotA 2.

#15 Coren

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:54 AM

@ swoopeh. The main deal I ( and many) have on the living story isn't the way it's implemented, it's how boring, two dimensional, predictable and in no.way as well done as other stuff ANet came out with in the past.

Jeff Grub pretty much single handedly came up with GW1 continuity and lore, and did a great job, just like Forgotten Realms lore he helped put in place. This steaming pile of compost serving as a living story, is a joke which shows he had no input in it.

#16 The_Blades

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 08:56 AM

Unfortunatelly i dont see GW2 ever becoming anything close to GW1, they're completelly different games that share a name.

However, theres a lot of things GW2 could have taken from gw1.

1- Dungeon rewards (yes gw1 only had dungeons in eotn, but whatever)- People nowadays run dungeons to get that skin or farm gold, once that is done what motivation does anyone have to run any dungeon? I, and im sure im not alone, ran X dungeon until i had enough tokens to get the piece of armor i wanted. I liked the dungeon it was fun, but why would i want to do it again? just for the sake of doing? it needs a carrot - some will  say, if you have fun then continue having fun - repeating ad nauseum, or even seldomly, without reward is not fun.

2- Armors with stats - Stats are goods, but should have been made with runes and insignias instead of inherently part of the armor - i know they need to make money and transmutation stones are part of that, but even then... bad solution for somethign they said would be only cosmetic. it doesnt break anything but its a not needed nuisance.

3- Zergfest galore all over the game. Spamming 1 at a boss in open world is not fun. this is the combat system's price - when we, as players fight along side one another instead of with the other players we get zergs. How could this be different? i have no idea. without trinity it all comes down to DPS. (yes, you're forgiven trinity, only tanks should have been destroyed)

4- weapon rarity system in general.  We had a great system back in gw1 - worthless whites, crappy blues (though some had uses because were unique. -50hp cesta for instance.) Not very usefull purples, although one of the most valuable items was purple until late game - the crysta. the greens that could not be modded but were good items. And the golds, that could vary a lot, a perfect rare was worth money in pre-inscription gw1. In gw2 only the grindfest toilet crafted weapons are worth anything. The exotic tier adds nothing to the game, only makes it so that we have 3 irrelevant (or close to irrelevant) tiers.

5- Boss loot - No green weapons? why not. why cant a boss have a unique drop? who wouldnt like to see a comeback from something in the lines of a Victo's Axe? (that axe that dropped from the primeval tombs) Why is the loot in general so worthless? to the point that they threw the player base a bone and said "here have a guaranteed rare if you zergfest that boss down" - And the reward system is so bad that everyone liked this cheap solution.

6- Instanced map-blocking story with relevant characters - Why does gw2 have so many tiny chapters with a cheesy crappy forgetable story. They should have sticked to one of their best weapons - cooperative missions. They were fun to do, told us the story as if we were part of the big picture, instead of feeling just like Traherne's (whatever his name is) sidekick, worst than that traherne is probably the worst hero character ever, coupled with a end boss like that... lol. What happened to the guys that came up with shiro, the lich, the annoying run-away rurik etc... they could even add heroes in this little parts of content for people that couldnt find parties to do story with. (well.. maybe that wasnt a good idea, i couldnt bare doing story with divinity's children.)

7- Weapon art - Why cant weapons be dyed? why are most of the weapon skins not very.. appealing. this is a matter of taste i know... but still. meh.

8- Want chest hunting? you dont have it. Want skill hunting (skill capping from bosses was great)? sorry, you get skills as you level up. Want a cartographer title in a game that had a strong banner in exploration, nah, you wont get it, and even if you did the game is so easy to explore that you wont care. want Hard areas where you have to go to and possibly fail (Mayhem in the market story mission comes to mind- that was some proper difficulty, yes it was faceroll after you leveled up and had an army of heroes, but for those who remember.. that was hard. and fun.)

9- so many little things. Good dance emotes? More emotes. Mini pets were good. etc etc etc


P.S. - I forgot we have a green tier i gw2.. thats how relevant they are.

P.S.S - on the topic of fail - Why cant we fail content (yes we can fail some events). But why cant we fail story missions? why cant we fail dungeons unless we give up? What happens if no one goes to kill jormag's lieutenant? it just stays there making noise.. wow thats a big threat right there... poor kodan ears having to stand that noise all day.

Edited by The_Blades, 29 May 2013 - 09:03 AM.


#17 Kyonshee

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:21 AM

Well I didn't think GW1 was 'better' as it only entertained me for as long as I had friends playing it and doing missions with, but I decided to read on anyway and I agree with all but a few points.

First, I don't think the levelcap in GW1 was good. I don't think the cap in GW2 is good either. 20 was too short and way too easily reached(especially in Factions, that shit was just insane) and I simply felt I had kind of reached the end. Yes, I know...there were still tons and tons of things to do and skillpoints to get...but frankly, I had the skills I wanted. The only skills I was hunting for were all the Elite skills and if I needed or wanted another few skills, I had plenty(if not too many) skill points to spare. But maybe that's just me... to me, it felt a bit less rewarding after hitting the cap and, with there being no gear upgrades aside from aesthetically pleasing armours, I just lost a lot of my interest in doing anything aside from having a good time with friends.

But don't get me wrong, GW2's cap is simply too high. The leveling is dull and a bit of a drag(hence why I just craft my way through) and to really experience a class at it's fullest, you simply need all those skills and attributes to toy with and see what works. It shouldn't be a long drag before you can do this.


Second, the monthly content versus expansions argument. I am conflicted over this. I agree, a big expansion beats tiny bits of content by a long shot....provided you pull it off well. An expansion should expand, not tamper with the existing core of the game like it did in GW1. After the first expansions in GW1 came out, my SS/SV Necro was useless. No monks wanted him along for UW runs anymore simply because I lacked a few of those fancy new skills. This is -not- how an expansion should work. This is what trading card games do: a new batch of cards is made and the old ones lose their demand.(It's a simplistic comparison but humor me here). This simply added to making me lose interest in the game. If I don't buy an expansion, I should simply be missing out, not suddenly stop being relevant to even the classic world and it's content.

Maybe I was just unlucky in this regard? I really don't know. All I'm saying is that I got kind of pressured into buying the content because the only people I could still play with without being hassled about the new skills and whatnot were some guildies.(and later, Eye of the North to even gain the possibility to carry over my GW1 shit to GW2)


And last(but certainly least), Magic find. It -should- be removed as a stat the way it is now, yes, but I don't think Magic Find should be removed completely. It can work, it was just a horrible idea to make it a replacing gear-stat and better yet: the selfish stat it is. If it was simply a buff and would benefit the group as a whole, it would really add to the teamplay experience.


That being said, I did like GW1 and I did think it was a great game.. but every game has flaws.

Edited by Kyonshee, 29 May 2013 - 09:23 AM.


#18 theoxygenthief

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:23 AM

View PostThe_Blades, on 29 May 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

P.S.S - on the topic of fail - Why cant we fail content (yes we can fail some events). But why cant we fail story missions? why cant we fail dungeons unless we give up? What happens if no one goes to kill jormag's lieutenant? it just stays there making noise.. wow thats a big threat right there... poor kodan ears having to stand that noise all day.

YES! I forgot about this in my OP but I've long felt that one of the biggest detractors to the GW2 experience is the lack of fail mechanics, specifically fail-if-everyone-dies. I think once the changes in the OP are implemented they can bring fail-if-everyone-dies back. I've long wondered why they removed it and I think it boils down to lazyness: The encounter is not perfectly balanced? So what, just respawn and faceroll it again with minor changes to skillbar or one less mob (you killed one before dying)

#19 StevenB90

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:24 AM

personally, I just want it to have more abilities!. Even if not utility, atleast give choices for slots 1-5. Like a warrior GS, you have a choice of sword skills to chose for slot 1, some for 2, etc

#20 theoxygenthief

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:26 AM

View PostCoren, on 29 May 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

@ swoopeh. The main deal I ( and many) have on the living story isn't the way it's implemented, it's how boring, two dimensional, predictable and in no.way as well done as other stuff ANet came out with in the past.

Jeff Grub pretty much single handedly came up with GW1 continuity and lore, and did a great job, just like Forgotten Realms lore he helped put in place. This steaming pile of compost serving as a living story, is a joke which shows he had no input in it.

Spot on

#21 theoxygenthief

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:33 AM

View PostKyonshee, on 29 May 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

First, I don't think the levelcap in GW1 was good. I don't think the cap in GW2 is good either. 20 was too short and way too easily reached(especially in Factions, that shit was just insane) and I simply felt I had kind of reached the end. Yes, I know...there were still tons and tons of things to do and skillpoints to get...but frankly, I had the skills I wanted. The only skills I was hunting for were all the Elite skills and if I needed or wanted another few skills, I had plenty(if not too many) skill points to spare. But maybe that's just me... to me, it felt a bit less rewarding after hitting the cap and, with there being no gear upgrades aside from aesthetically pleasing armours, I just lost a lot of my interest in doing anything aside from having a good time with friends.

But don't get me wrong, GW2's cap is simply too high. The leveling is dull and a bit of a drag(hence why I just craft my way through) and to really experience a class at it's fullest, you simply need all those skills and attributes to toy with and see what works. It shouldn't be a long drag before you can do this.

Second, the monthly content versus expansions argument. I am conflicted over this. I agree, a big expansion beats tiny bits of content by a long shot....provided you pull it off well. An expansion should expand, not tamper with the existing core of the game like it did in GW1. After the first expansions in GW1 came out, my SS/SV Necro was useless. No monks wanted him along for UW runs anymore simply because I lacked a few of those fancy new skills. This is -not- how an expansion should work. This is what trading card games do: a new batch of cards is made and the old ones lose their demand.(It's a simplistic comparison but humor me here). This simply added to making me lose interest in the game. If I don't buy an expansion, I should simply be missing out, not suddenly stop being relevant to even the classic world and it's content.

Fair points. I never came across the problem with expansions as I generally was first in line to buy each expansion as it hit, but I can imagine. I think you included the easy straightforward solution in your post too though: Keep new skills out of the original map, have them only available in new areas. Then again, I'm sure Anet would want you to feel left out and pressurised into buying new content, as it improves their bottom line.

I understand your point regarding the level cap, but I personally find max-lvl content far more engaging than leveling content. A lot of the classes (Mesmer, Engineer and thief IMO) feel broken and unwieldy sub-lvl 80 - it is taking me 3 times longer with 3 times more deaths to lvl those than my other classes took, and I have actually pretty much given up on those classes as I am not only not enjoying playing with a char that feels broken, but I am missing out on too much top tier loot and rewards for it to feel sensible. Maybe a sensible solution is to reach stat cap and top tier gear & loot at lvl 20, but still accumulate trait points until lvl 40 or 80

Edited by theoxygenthief, 29 May 2013 - 09:41 AM.


#22 Dasviidonja

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:37 AM

Basically I don't want another GW1 I like how GW2 runs and is made except for the lack of vertical progression which lends itself to boredom once you've gotten your max gear unless you like to chef and craft like me or pvp and WvW. Consumables will always be seller items I'm finding. Gear will dwindle as everyone gets decked out. I'm finding there's not as many disgruntled folk as I thought just the same handful that hangs out on forums but that's always to be expected with any MMO or really any game. Those that don't like the way it's run will voice their opinions on open forums. Game is a success as it is and I certainly wouldn't want to see it any other way except for companions like heroes if they could find some way to allow them for solo dungeon runs or boss encounters that no one wants to run anymore.

The gear grind is fun and lots of choices on how one wants their character decked out in stats. I don't see the issues with DPS or condition dmg or any of that other stuff because it only really makes a difference in PvP anyways. There are so many ways to build a character I don't see how anyone can think just pure DPS is the way and only way to go. There's so many variables left out like stuns and blinds and KD's that DPS isn't the only thing to consider when building a character. Personally I'm finding a distance condition build with a guardian and sword and hammer and retaliation skill do quite well and when I tried one of those zerk builds I got my azz handed to me because there's no defense in them. Just a glass cannon....pffft.

As for levels and leveling I like how they did it....20 max was too fast and too easy as it took me a long time to reach level 80 and I enjoyed that. I did find that the majority of level experience came from doing hearts and events and group events later on and that made leveling much faster than just killin stuff.

#23 theoxygenthief

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:42 AM

View PostStevenB90, on 29 May 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

personally, I just want it to have more abilities!. Even if not utility, atleast give choices for slots 1-5. Like a warrior GS, you have a choice of sword skills to chose for slot 1, some for 2, etc

Exactly what I recommend in the OP

#24 theoxygenthief

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 09:50 AM

View PostDasviidonja, on 29 May 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Basically I don't want another GW1 I like how GW2 runs and is made

Thanks, as stated in my OP, this topic is not for you then.

Unfortunately we don't have any facts available on how successful the game is, specifically not on how good player retention is. I can only speak anecdotally, but all my friends who played GW1 daily to the day GW2 was released are no longer active in GW2. I have seen the active user base in our Guild dwindle from 50+ average any time of the day to 20 at peak hours and 10 or less rest of the day. We have a really nice friendly guild and I don't see this as being a guild problem, I asked some of the members who aren't active anymore and they responded that they are just bored of the game.

#25 Asbodai

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 10:10 AM

If they just introduced a bunch of new well thought out skills for each class it would be a great leap forward. It would readdress class balance, increase variety, give better definition of class roles, increase trait synergy, decrease reliance on pure DPS… it could even help split up the zerg (New elite: damage = 500*Enemies in target area).

One of the things I loved about GW1 was the skill theory crafting… coming up with builds that suited a very particular task either in a group or solo setting. GW2 does not offer that scope. I have one build on my Guardian that will do everything, I can go anywhere and farm anything and I know that I’m pretty much unkillable.

In GW1 I can remember trying to perfect the raptor run in hard mode. Eventually I came up with a mix of skills that worked, indeed it helped me complete the survivor title within a few hours. All these elite areas where you could go solo or with a friend would offer hours of entertainment because it was a challenge to perfect it, particularly farming runs… people liked farming in GW1 because it offered high returns for high risk for a whole variety of valuable commodities. I miss that in GW2 because you are stuck in a mould, mobs are easy and drop rates are low, farming sucks.

We need more skill variety, mental hard mobs with high drop rates of useful stuff. It must be soloable though, a personal challenge for skilled players. With this in mind it would be great to see scalable instances / dungeons that cater for 1 to 12 man groups.

Edited by Asbodai, 29 May 2013 - 10:23 AM.


#26 Kyonshee

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 10:16 AM

View Posttheoxygenthief, on 29 May 2013 - 09:33 AM, said:

Fair points. I never came across the problem with expansions as I generally was first in line to buy each expansion as it hit, but I can imagine. I think you included the easy straightforward solution in your post too though: Keep new skills out of the original map, have them only available in new areas. Then again, I'm sure Anet would want you to feel left out and pressurised into buying new content, as it improves their bottom line.

I understand your point regarding the level cap, but I personally find max-lvl content far more engaging than leveling content. A lot of the classes (Mesmer, Engineer and thief IMO) feel broken and unwieldy sub-lvl 80 - it is taking me 3 times longer with 3 times more deaths to lvl those than my other classes took, and I have actually pretty much given up on those classes as I am not only not enjoying playing with a char that feels broken, but I am missing out on too much top tier loot and rewards for it to feel sensible. Maybe a sensible solution is to reach stat cap and top tier gear & loot at lvl 20, but still accumulate trait points until lvl 40 or 80

True, it is a solid marketing strategy on their part. A little customer service goes a long way towards building a trusting fanbase, though I know they won't really make a loss in the few that are turned away by their decisions.

And yes, that is an excellent solution to the leveling problem and I do feel your pain in leveling a class like that. I've had many problems as a Mesmer myself as well and have had more than a few deaths. Same goes for Thief, though I never managed to get one past level 15 because of this.

Bottom line, leveling should not take too long, be too much of a hassle but should still feel rewarding on the longer run. Maybe we could get some more stuff we can do with Skill points. Right now, as far as I know, you can buy all your skills and after that, the only thing you can spend them on is....the Mystic Forge thing? I'm not sure. Point is, if there was more to do with those skill points it would already motivate players a lot more to continue gaining them after they've already unlocked all their class skills(which are very limited compared to GW1's vast collection of skills)

#27 dem

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 10:43 AM

The 2 things that will make for me GW2 better (and bring some GW1 tactics in GW2):
1. Deference between Elemental and physical damage, elemental and physical Armor !!! (based on Class)
2. In Instance make that Daze interupt the Action (regardless of Defiant) - Only Daze not the other Control Effects

These 2 points will bring alot of GW1 tactics back. Interupt Key skills, use a Elem to Tank an Elementalist and a War to kill a Elementalist, etc....

#28 omar316

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 10:56 AM

View PostArewn, on 29 May 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

As an additional mechanic, an alternative that plays off your idea is a game wide (for all professions) 'blocking' mechanic which reduces damage taken by 50% while in use. For example, hold *insertkeybindhere* to raise your weapon in a defensive stance, reducing movement speed by X and dmg taken by X. Not sure how this would fit in to the game on top of dodge though xD Maybe make it for melee weapons only and give range something else?

It's called hold the line, from DAoC/Warhammer.

#29 Craywulf

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 11:43 AM

Adding more weapon skills is not going help balancing, if you have a total of 10 greatsword skills, you're just going slot the ones that do the most DPS. The other 5 skills will be rarely used. The way the current system is set up, you are more limited, but not all the skills are DPS centric. Arguing choice over balance is short-sighted because it effects all professions and all formats of play. It's a can of worms and the reason why some professions only have access to select weapons.

I've said this before but for those who haven't seen it, here's what I think would help GW2 feel more complex without losing it's accessibility.

1. Improve the way Cross-Profession-Combos (CPCs) work...Executing them should reap greater benefits and mobs and champions should have specific vulnerabilities to them. To give you example:

Current CPC

A Necromancer lays down a Well of Suffering (Dark) and a Guardian uses Leap of Faith (Leap) and the result is blindness for 3-5 seconds on a Champion.

Suggested CPC

A Necromancer lays down a Well of Suffering (Dark) and a Guardian uses Leap of Faith (Leap) and the result is blindness for 8 seconds on a Champion who has vulnerability to blindness which suffers another 4 seconds of blindness, bringing the executed CPC’s value to 12 seconds of blindness. Now that’s a huge benefit, but they could also put an internal cooldown for blindness to 180 seconds on the champion to prevent abusing CPC spamming.

This idea could be expanded where mobs might have completely different vulnerabilities than the champions, which allows for all professions to contribute in executing CPCs. Another thing they can do is give Champions more than one type of condition vulnerability and even more depth can be added by having the vulnerabilities chain. In other words lets say a specific Skritt Champion is vulnerable to blindness, crippled, and fear. You could apply a CPC vulnerability in any order or you can trigger a bonus if you apply the vulnerabilities in a specific order. The bonus could be something simple as the Champion dies quicker and players within the area gain a lengthy buff like 5 minutes of Might or maybe a 5% Magic Find buff.

Giving mobs and bosses certain vulnerabilities and immunity to select conditions and combo fields gives players a valid reason to execute them. They can create greater depth by having a specific order which a target might be vulnerable to specific CPC. There could also be a negative repercussions for failing to execute a specific CPC within allotted time or order. Such as boss launching a massive area-wide knockback for an ill-timed CPC.

Also a lot Combo fields are aimed at enemies and not enough combo fields offer significant amount benefits to ally targeted fields. If the ally targeted combo fields were more significant, there would be a greater value of support roles as oppose to everyone just being DPS centric. The boons would have to be lengthy like 3 minutes. This would change the way we think about executing them.

2. Improve the A.I. by giving them dramatically more AoE knockbacks, knockdowns, and stuns. They also need to give the mobs a vastly wider range of movement.

3. Get rid of numerical leveling, by doing so it would eliminate the perception that GW2 is grindy. Whether max level is 10, 50 or 80, there is a proverbial finish line. By removing it players are no longer motivated to play tediously in order to "finish" their character progression. I've said this before and it's worth repeating...Experience bar should be abolished from modern day MMOs! There's no point in "leveling" when there are more visual ways of showing personal progression. XP points and levels is an archaic system from AD&D that was used as way to show threat levels of both enemy and allies. "I'm a level 27 Wizard" or "Beware, those Goblins are level 30!" pretty much explained the player's progression and the danger of the enemies.

We don't need that now in day in age where graphics in games are so incredibly visual. The XP points, XP bar and levels should be hidden from players view. You wouldn't farm or grind if you never knew when you would acquire a skill point (by leveling) if you couldn't see the XP bar. Imagine gaining a skill point without knowing you leveled up. It would be a complete surprise and you might actually feel like there's legitimate progression.

Remove the all math (except for gold), and just let players tweak the profession-centric traits. Hide the points in attributes as well. Let players figure out that adding traits to the Skirmishing line increases the critical hit chance. Hide the math behind Power, Precision, Toughness, and Vitality. All you need to know is Marksmanship increases Power and  Condition Duration, and greatly improves long range combat with bows and use of signets. You don't need to know the exact math, or formula behind it. Yeah I know I can hear the complaints, but seriously this is a visual game, not a spreadsheet pen & paper game.

Hide the Karma points too and just have a scale that coveys "favorable" or "unfavorable" to each Karma vendor and their items. I would also remove hit points, and let players figure out which skill does more damage. You should be able to notice it when you see your target's health drop. How do you know which is more powerful skill? Try it out! It's not hard to see a target lose health.

#30 draxynnic

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 12:04 PM

View Posttheoxygenthief, on 28 May 2013 - 09:06 PM, said:

Make obtaining top stat but dead ugly gear dead easy
Do this through crafting - make it possible to craft ascended gear, remove ecto requirements from all standard max stat equipment recipes, decrease material costs.
I'd say 'plain' rather than 'ugly' - the distinction between the default PvP sword and the awful reskin-on-sight pearl sabre... except that the latter is my personal opinion and the designer probably thinks its awesome.

Making weapon skins whose sole function is to be horrible strikes me as a waste of resources - it's better to just make the cheap max item to be something that's just nothing special, with the expense being for the stuff you'd want to show off.
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