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Eight years later...


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#1 Tranquility

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 12:26 AM

Eight years later, you can still go back and enjoy all of Guild Wars' PvE content to it's fullest. From the original campaign up to the newest, very little of the core experience is taken away by the severely diminished population.

Where will Guild Wars 2 be in 8 years? Six months after release, it is already difficult to find enough people to do "unpopular" and even middle of the road dungeons. Many zones have group events, but the zones are already ghost towns.

It just seems that the more games try to depend on "social" events, the less staying power they have. Yes, dynamic events were fun the first month with people all over the place. Yes, rifts were fun in Rift with multiple people doing them. Warhammer Online? Same thing. But then a couple months after release, that same content just becomes lifeless. Content loses a lot of it's original charm, and that's assuming the content is even still possible to complete by the average player.

Guild Wars 2 just feels like it failed to make the content strong enough on it's own, and used the social aspects as too much of a crutch. Leveling alts just feels like I'm playing a subpar Skyrim clone...huge open world with nothing in it besides mobs that don't pose much threat spaced equidistantly around the landscape, and random dungeons that are inaccessible because nobody else is doing them. And this is less than a year after release.

#2 Lydeck

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 12:42 AM

Unless you're pro with heroes, no you can't do GW1 dungeons solo now. then again I mained an ele.

Edited by Lydeck, 30 May 2013 - 12:42 AM.


#3 Draino

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 12:43 AM

OP, your post hits some worrisome truths, but I beg to disagree on one small thing...social events were a huge glue IMO, in GW. Just being in KC was wild, on holidays it was incredible.

But the model strengthened the structure. By presenting a new box to purchase so often, the flow of new players never stopped. Right now I get the feeling that in GW2 we have few new players, and most of us who've been here a while have sorted out to our favorite things to do, often the more profitable things. And it seems to me that ANet intentionally nerfs these things, trying thereby to get veterans back into content players already decided was less rewarding, hundreds of playtime hours ago. Not, perhaps, the best way to fill empty zones, keep active players, and sell more stuff. Don't know; just my guesses.

But I think without new players coming in steadily, no game can long thrive, and a gem store only sells to those who've installed the game already.  Game stores sell only to an ever-shrinking crowd of prior buyers.

Edited by Draino, 30 May 2013 - 12:45 AM.


#4 Tranquility

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 12:47 AM

View PostLydeck, on 30 May 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

Unless you're pro with heroes, no you can't do GW1 dungeons solo now. then again I mained an ele.

It's pretty easy to do most dungeons, especially on normal mode.

I've actually did the majority of them in the past few weeks with all heroes...which was been surprisingly easy compared to doing them with heroes and hench back in the day. I also 7manned both FoW and UW back in the day by getting a friend to bring in heroes and leave. And did a lot of hard mode with pure hero/hench.

Some hard mode stuff is ridiculous with heroes though, I'll admit that. It also depends heavily on your profession...heroes tend to have worse AI for casters.

#5 Jentari

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 01:57 AM

I will agree with the op on most of his points.  Sure GW2 is having things like the live event and the other events that have brought some people in, but nothing that was offered kept a lot of the people around.  Look back at some of the threads from some of the earlier events.  See how many people commented they did them not off to play something else.

I wish I could put my foot on exactly why GW2 has this problem with keeping peoples interest.  I know there are still a lot of people playing, seems like less then 2-3 months after release (I don't have pop numbers, just stating what I observe), but it is harder to get people for things.

Maybe they will figure out what it is missing, put it in game and then be able to hold onto people for a longer time.

#6 Dark

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 02:03 AM

There isn't enough endgame or titles to work for.. there just isn't.. By trying to be special and trying to eliminate the grind anet kind of messed this one up.

#7 Eon Lilu

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:29 AM

View PostDark, on 30 May 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

There isn't enough endgame or titles to work for.. there just isn't.. By trying to be special and trying to eliminate the grind anet kind of messed this one up.

They didn't even eliminate grind, in some ways and areas they even increased it, if you even go after a legendary most of it is just grinding gold or using your credit card to skip ahead because the game is so heavily unrewarding for the actual materials and thing's you need for legendary, I am also sure that it is all on purpose and designed that way along with diminishing returns to extend the life of the game through artificially increasing the time it takes to achieve things, and to push players towards buying gems to sell for gold in the micro-transaction store to skip the artificially created time increase and grind.

This is not the GW2 that was told and sold to us before launch and beta, it is some other weird twisted abomination of what they said it would be....

"Guild Wars 2 takes all the things you love in Guild Wars 1 and put's it into a persistent living world"

"As a structure the mmo has lost lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero. Everybody around you is doing the say thing your doing, the boss you killed respawns ten mins later, it doesn't care that I am there".....remind you of anything?

Lies.



That was released in 2010....3 years later and look at the topic comment on that video and try to say the comment isn't true...
Quoted 3 years later ....

Quote

Wow, the game described in this video looks awesome! When is it coming out?
I'm currently playing some game that looks a lot like this, but it has increasing amounts of grinding, vertical progression, gated content, repetitive events, bland´╗┐ combat, loads of missing features, and a dev team that doesn't respond to what its players are saying.

Edited by Eon Lilu, 30 May 2013 - 05:49 AM.


#8 Kaaboose

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 06:31 AM

View PostEon Lilu, on 30 May 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

They didn't even eliminate grind, in some ways and areas they even increased it, if you even go after a legendary most of it is just grinding gold or using your credit card to skip ahead because the game is so heavily unrewarding for the actual materials and thing's you need for legendary, I am also sure that it is all on purpose and designed that way along with diminishing returns to extend the life of the game through artificially increasing the time it takes to achieve things, and to push players towards buying gems to sell for gold in the micro-transaction store to skip the artificially created time increase and grind.

This is not the GW2 that was told and sold to us before launch and beta, it is some other weird twisted abomination of what they said it would be....

"Guild Wars 2 takes all the things you love in Guild Wars 1 and put's it into a persistent living world"

"As a structure the mmo has lost lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero. Everybody around you is doing the say thing your doing, the boss you killed respawns ten mins later, it doesn't care that I am there".....remind you of anything?

Lies.



That was released in 2010....3 years later and look at the topic comment on that video and try to say the comment isn't true...
Quoted 3 years later ....
Watching this again... It almost brings a tear to my eye. There was SO much potential, and to make matter worse IT IS STILL there. There is eveidence all over of Anet trying to do what they caliemd here. There are A FEW instances where your PS effects the open world. There are some PS missions that take place almost entirely in the Open world.
Look here to see their original concept of GW2 combat and compare that to what we have now: http://gw2101.gtm.gu.../healing-death/
I can't find the video but I remember the devs telling us how amazing the Zhiatan fight would be.
I... I have to stop now. I've put myself into a jaded, depressed, slump.

#9 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 06:40 AM

View PostTranquility, on 30 May 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

Guild Wars 2 just feels like it failed to make the content strong enough on it's own, and used the social aspects as too much of a crutch.

This. Oh, so much!
If we disregard servers, data centers, the lack of alliances (and the corresponding chat) and a decent LFG tool (although ... you know ... that's a LOT of poorly implemented social features to disregard), GW2 really shines at its social aspect: instanced gathering nodes, shared XP for kills, DEs, waypoint travel, DPS ├╝ber alles, no faction-based restrictions, ... I really wish a lot of devs would look at this and simply copy it (while also fixing servers, centers, LFG and chat, of course!).
The problem is that this isn't attached to a good game. As I said before, the game is built on DEs and DEs are a glorified way to kill trash. And while killing trash is absolutely important in a game, it can't be THE game: killing trash is what happens in between THE game. And this is where GW2 fails: it's a game without a game.

Right now, GW2 is basically a platform and it is waiting for a game to be implemented onto it. "When it's ready!", my ass!

#10 Desild

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:11 AM

View PostLydeck, on 30 May 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

Unless you're pro with heroes, no you can't do GW1 dungeons solo now. then again I mained an ele.

As a matter of fact, the only tiny bit of PvE I didn't do with Heroes was the Underworld. Boy do I miss those days, when gods like me were gods and plebeians would grovel at my feet. Nowadays the only reason people take me with them, to anything PvE, is because I'm a chatty, "funny" guy.

And who still takes the manifesto video serious nowadays?

Edited by Desild, 30 May 2013 - 07:12 AM.


#11 Millimidget

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:15 AM

View PostRitualist, on 30 May 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

The problem is that this isn't attached to a good game. As I said before, the game is built on DEs and DEs are a glorified way to kill trash. And while killing trash is absolutely important in a game, it can't be THE game: killing trash is what happens in between THE game. And this is where GW2 fails: it's a game without a game.
The content is mostly fine; it's the rewards which blow. A pittance of silver and useless karma, all while fighting mobs with gimp drop rates. Loot isn't everything, but there's barely reason to do most DEs while leveling, let alone go back to them later. Don't forget that DEs aren't just about killing trash, they're also about killing champion mobs with huge life bars that drop worse loot than the trash leading up to them. Few are the places where you can chain enough DEs in a short enough time span to make it worth even waypointing out there.

#12 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:32 AM

View PostMillimidget, on 30 May 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

The content is mostly fine; it's the rewards which blow. A pittance of silver and useless karma, all while fighting mobs with gimp drop rates. Loot isn't everything, but there's barely reason to do most DEs while leveling, let alone go back to them later. Don't forget that DEs aren't just about killing trash, they're also about killing champion mobs with huge life bars that drop worse loot than the trash leading up to them. Few are the places where you can chain enough DEs in a short enough time span to make it worth even waypointing out there.

I absolutely do not disagree with the loot issue.
What I meant by "killing trash" though, is that DEs have the same point as killing trash does in other games: you kill trash on your quest to do something amazing. Trash, regardless of its strength, is just something that gets in the way. And GW2 feels like you are always killing things that are getting in the way, but there is no pay-off: killing trash is the means to a goal in other games, in GW2 though, because its a game that is built on DEs, killing trash is the goal.

There's no point to GW2, you are just running around, "killing trash". That's why I feel like that there's a game missing in GW2: somebody forgot to connect the dots. They threw in a lot of good ideas, they just didn't finish the game.

#13 Krino

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:51 AM

I blame waypoints, it makes us do everything really quick which removes the feeling of exploring and adventure, we can't even appreciate the scenery, structures, landscape because we just jump from one place to another. instead of waypoint i would honestly rather prefer airship transportation.

#14 Kyonshee

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 08:54 AM

View PostKrino, on 30 May 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

I blame waypoints, it makes us do everything really quick which removes the feeling of exploring and adventure, we can't even appreciate the scenery, structures, landscape because we just jump from one place to another. instead of waypoint i would honestly rather prefer airship transportation.

Instant transportation has been here since GW1 and in fact, didn't even cost you anything back then. The few silvers of teleportation cost don't seem much at the time but teleport back and forth a bunch of times and you've already spent as much if not more than your average income from leveling, but that's just a sidenote. The main point is that I don't think flightpaths would help at all. They're fun the very first ride, to soak in all the enviroment but right after that, it's just an annoying waste of time. Those 10-minute realtime flights in WoW were -the worst-.

No....I don't think that's a solution at all. I think that'll make things worse, especially considering people's growing impatience(hence all the dungeon speedrunning and skipping)

#15 Mastruq

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 12:53 PM

GW1 8 years (5 years) after release is a mostly single player game where almost nobody has the need or desire to play the instances with other humans. GW1 simply *is not an MMORPG* ... its like saying I can still play Diablo 1 and experience all of it without hindrance, or Baldurs game or even Quake 2. So while your concerns arent wrong per se, the comparison just cant or shouldnt be made.

#16 Nabuko Darayon

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 02:19 PM

Quick fix for ghost areas.... allow us to FARM the zones... everyone needs the materials,make specific areas for specific mats and remove DR...
With the fight vs bots they're losing regular farmers who enjoy killing mobs and enjoy farming mats...

I'd rather have bots dealt in a different way and still keep farms up.

GW1 had these farms, whether it was a green weapon or some specific expensive stuff people did it. Here, only thing you can do is dungeons. Why? because they don't want "bots" to ruin the economy.

Edited by Nabuko Darayon, 30 May 2013 - 02:20 PM.


#17 Resolve

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:17 PM

View PostRitualist, on 30 May 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:


There's no point to GW2, you are just running around, "killing trash". That's why I feel like that there's a game missing in GW2: somebody forgot to connect the dots. They threw in a lot of good ideas, they just didn't finish the game.

Yeah I'm feeling this way lately. They should just add the dungeon armors into WvW/fractals or something. Give you something to aim for that isn't just farming mobs or world bosses so you can buy a 'legendary'.

#18 Tranquility

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:25 PM

View PostMastruq, on 30 May 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

GW1 8 years (5 years) after release is a mostly single player game where almost nobody has the need or desire to play the instances with other humans. GW1 simply *is not an MMORPG* ... its like saying I can still play Diablo 1 and experience all of it without hindrance, or Baldurs game or even Quake 2. So while your concerns arent wrong per se, the comparison just cant or shouldnt be made.

I was under the impression that I was posting on a site about Guild Wars 2, not World of Warcraft 2.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

#19 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:28 PM

View PostLydeck, on 30 May 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

Unless you're pro with heroes, no you can't do GW1 dungeons solo now. then again I mained an ele.

YES you can...

christ, someone hasn't spent enough time on GW1...

#20 Beta Sprite

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:31 PM

View PostI, on 30 May 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

YES you can...

christ, someone hasn't spent enough time on GW1...

I think you missed this line here:
"Unless you're pro with heroes"

Now, I don't think I'm pro with heroes, but I could do some of the dungeons with heroes alone.  If I hadn't set them up nicely, though, I think it would have been impossible, and perhaps that is the 'pro' that is being referred to.

#21 Mordakai

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:45 PM

Times have changed.  It's just not realistic to think that you will be playing the same game 8 years from now...  and yes I realize there are exceptions.

Enjoy the game while you can...  I don't expect GW2 to last 8 years.  And that's not a knock on GW2, I don't expect  many games to last 8 years anymore.

#22 Darkobra

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:12 PM

View PostLydeck, on 30 May 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

Unless you're pro with heroes, no you can't do GW1 dungeons solo now. then again I mained an ele.

I know I'm good but I think you're exaggerating here.

Then again, I'm a master ele.

#23 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:24 PM

View PostLydeck, on 30 May 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

Unless you're pro with heroes, no you can't do GW1 dungeons solo now. then again I mained an ele.

I think you're just trolling here, but on the off chance you're not I'll respond.

You do not now (nor did you ever) need to be "pro" with heroes to do those dungeons.  If you're bad at designing good team builds, that information is plastered all over the place (forums, PvX, other websites, as well as easily obtainable from fellow players more often than not) and short of getting the needed skills (or suitable replacements) the gearing in no way needs to be optimal for 99% of the content.

Sure, you might occasionally need to flag your heroes out of AoE, but all or most of those dungeons are doable on normal mode with just henchmen (I've done it, even on an ele).  With one or two possible exceptions, they were all doable without too much trouble on Hard mode with heroes/henchmen and it only got easier with 7 heroes.  What makes dungeons (and much of GW1 content) different is that you needed to play strategically in plenty of places... for the most part that's lacking in GW2 (though the new Null dungeon requires a bit more team work than many of the others).

#24 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:32 PM

View PostTranquility, on 30 May 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

Eight years later, you can still go back and enjoy all of Guild Wars' PvE content to it's fullest. From the original campaign up to the newest, very little of the core experience is taken away by the severely diminished population.

Where will Guild Wars 2 be in 8 years? Six months after release, it is already difficult to find enough people to do "unpopular" and even middle of the road dungeons. Many zones have group events, but the zones are already ghost towns.

It just seems that the more games try to depend on "social" events, the less staying power they have. Yes, dynamic events were fun the first month with people all over the place. Yes, rifts were fun in Rift with multiple people doing them. Warhammer Online? Same thing. But then a couple months after release, that same content just becomes lifeless. Content loses a lot of it's original charm, and that's assuming the content is even still possible to complete by the average player.

Guild Wars 2 just feels like it failed to make the content strong enough on it's own, and used the social aspects as too much of a crutch. Leveling alts just feels like I'm playing a subpar Skyrim clone...huge open world with nothing in it besides mobs that don't pose much threat spaced equidistantly around the landscape, and random dungeons that are inaccessible because nobody else is doing them. And this is less than a year after release.

I agree with you here mostly OP.  There were two factors that drew me to GW1 initially... one was that you could CHOOSE to play with other people to complete the game if you wanted to (but it was not required) and the second was that there was no subscription fee.  While I feel that Anet tried to replicate those two things in GW2, I think its fair to say they haven't yet been able to do it.  You can still do A LOT solo in GW2, but there are some poorly designed things that make it very difficult sometimes (and absolutely impossible at other times).  Case in point, yesterday I was completing Malachor's Leap on my Necro... there were two places that I needed to get skill points where I couldn't because there was a champion event right on top of the place I needed to go, and the zone was so empty that no one answered anything I said in chat at all.  For most of the time I was in the zone, I saw no other players.   There was a third spot where I needed to commune with a statue, but it is literally impossible to do so unless Melandru's temple is held (due to the dmg effect of the statue).  There's no way I can get that temple myself, which means that unless enough players are doing it, I can't complete the simple goal of getting a skill point.  That's just bad design, made all the worse by the fact that Anet had a better game already and decided to pitch it for a more "popular" concept of an MMO, rather than a co-op RPG.

#25 KlaatuZu

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:31 PM

View PostNabuko Darayon, on 30 May 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Quick fix for ghost areas.... allow us to FARM the zones... everyone needs the materials,make specific areas for specific mats and remove DR...
With the fight vs bots they're losing regular farmers who enjoy killing mobs and enjoy farming mats...

I'd rather have bots dealt in a different way and still keep farms up.

Agree completely!
Don't forget, there is also the need for more reasons to do said farming in the first place.

and,

Let traits evolve a bit more, and give more options and complexity to builds.

The most fun I have is testing new builds in challenging content that compels me to do so!

Edited by KlaatuZu, 30 May 2013 - 05:37 PM.


#26 Millimidget

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:04 PM

View PostRitualist, on 30 May 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

There's no point to GW2, you are just running around, "killing trash". That's why I feel like that there's a game missing in GW2: somebody forgot to connect the dots. They threw in a lot of good ideas, they just didn't finish the game.
It certainly doesn't help that non-trash (ie any champion mobs, bosses, etc) drops even crappier rewards than the normal trash. Many players have complained about feeling unrewarded after engaging 1v1 in an epic struggle against a champion mob, only to get junk white gear or other salvage material in return.

#27 MazingerZ

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:05 PM

View PostMillimidget, on 30 May 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

It certainly doesn't help that non-trash (ie any champion mobs, bosses, etc) drops even crappier rewards than the normal trash. Many players have complained about feeling unrewarded after engaging 1v1 in an epic struggle against a champion mob, only to get junk white gear or other salvage material in return.

That's why vets now drop a blue and champs I think always drop a green!

Nice to get stuff I can't even sell on the TP.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#28 Millimidget

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:08 PM

View PostKyonshee, on 30 May 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Those 10-minute realtime flights in WoW were -the worst-.
Downtime is a great time to socialize. I was really disappointed when they reworked SE path 1 to remove the downtime; that ~15m wait for the patrols to finish passing was the most social I've seen this game, outside of heavily organized guild WvW. And for many (most?) MMO gamers, the 10m flight time is a great opportunity to stretch, use the bathroom, grab a drink or a snack, etc.; you know, all those things many MMO gamers neglect, to the detriment of their own health.

View PostMazingerZ, on 30 May 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

That's why vets now drop a blue and champs I think always drop a green!
Whoa! Mind=blown. I'll be re-installing today.../sarcasm

Edited by Millimidget, 30 May 2013 - 07:09 PM.


#29 MazingerZ

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:15 PM

View PostMillimidget, on 30 May 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

Downtime is a great time to socialize. I was really disappointed when they reworked SE path 1 to remove the downtime; that ~15m wait for the patrols to finish passing was the most social I've seen this game, outside of heavily organized guild WvW. And for many (most?) MMO gamers, the 10m flight time is a great opportunity to stretch, use the bathroom, grab a drink or a snack, etc.; you know, all those things many MMO gamers neglect, to the detriment of their own health.

Whoa! Mind=blown. I'll be re-installing today.../sarcasm

I never said it was great.  I continually laugh at their failed attempts to make themselves look like Good Guy ArenaNet in situations they've manufactured for themselves.  "Killing a Champion un-rewarding?  Here, let me give you a green piece of loot that you probably could have gotten several times over from carving through several tightly packed mobs wearing a decent amount of MF."

Edited by MazingerZ, 30 May 2013 - 07:15 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#30 Nikephoros

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Posted 30 May 2013 - 07:16 PM

I think people's memories of gw1 end game are becoming fictionalized.  The content was either...

1.  Faceroll with meta 7 hero builds and OP pve-only skills.

2.  Faceroll with meta 7 hero builds and OP pve-only skills but you had to pop essence of celerity.

3.  Extremely difficult unless you ran gimmick builds like terratank, shadow form that were designed specifically for that instance and had little application elsewhere in the game.

4.  Impossible without gimmick builds but extremely easy with them, and became the domain of speedrun guilds who competed for speed run records.

What DIDNT exist was...

5.  Nuanced instances that were best completed by parties of human players using balanced builds and not requiring consets that had interesting encounters.  The closest to this was FoW in the pre-Heroes days but even then the farmers already devised gimmick builds that were superior to general balanced team builds.

If people are arguing for a return to GW1 type content where you have to run gimmicks like 55 monks, terratanks, SFsins in order to complete the end game content, I'll pass.




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