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Perception of "Grind"


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#1 Tranquility

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 11:39 PM

I've come to the conclusion that people only drop the "grind" bomb when the content itself is not intrinsically fun. When people aren't enjoying doing X content for Y item, they complain about "grind", whereas if they were doing Z content for the same Y item, even if it took longer, they wouldn't complain about the grind if they were having fun doing that content.

I'm not going to repost that Extra Credits episode that has been overly used, but it is kind of the  same vein. People will pursue extrinsic rewards even if there's no intrinsic satisfaction. The people complaining about grind just can't see through it. When something is intrinsically entertaining, then you don't even need extrinsic rewards. Thousands of people have played Team Fortress 2 for hundreds or even thousands of hours, and there is literally no "reward" for doing so. They do it because the game is actually fun to play.

I'll not continue ranting, but I'll just sum it up as, grind only exists because you let it. You're playing a game that you don't like to get "rewards" that don't matter. Once you learn to see through that you'll have a lot more fun in your games, and avoid games that simply replace fun with a skinnerbox loot treadmill.

#2 ben911993

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 11:54 PM

View PostTranquility, on 01 June 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

I've come to the conclusion that people only drop the "grind" bomb when the content itself is not intrinsically fun.

That's because that's exactly when grind becomes perceptible. Repeating any task at all for an expected reward is grind, but we don't recognize it as grind if we enjoy that task. Instead it's fun, enjoyable content. But when the content is no longer fun, our willingness to repeat that task is greatly diminished, and we recognize it as grind.

This has already been brought up and stated many times here before. Some people have much higher tolerances for the tasks they're willing to repeat over and over, and those people will complain far less about any "grind." Whereas some players, myself included, don't get a lot of enjoyment out of such content, and will be a bit quicker to drop the "grind" bomb.

#3 Nabuko Darayon

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:02 AM

There's nothing actually to discuss here... I've tried to say something constructive but I just can't :D. I agree with you.

#4 Trei

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:53 AM

Would it be a grind to repeat a simple, short task a mere second time to get a reward?

#5 draxynnic

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 05:03 AM

It could be, but few people have such low tolerances for repetition. Mind you, I've seen a few "never again!" responses regarding Canach's lair - I'm certainly not sure I'm ever going to be bothered trying for Lightfooted again, for instance.

That said, saying that it's grind when you perform an action for an extrinsic rather than an intrinsic reward is probably the best definition of all - and the more a player is asked to repeat a given task, the more likely they are to cross that threshold. This goes doubly when the extrinsic reward is a gating mechanism to reach some other content that does have an intrinsic reward.

Edited by draxynnic, 02 June 2013 - 05:05 AM.

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#6 Jazebel

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 05:43 AM

All these thread I see about grind this and grind that.... it's simple GW2 doesn't have a grind. It's real simple as that. When I maxed my first level 80 he was full exotic armor, trinkets and weapons with superior runes and sigils. Just through leveling and doing events, and crafting my weapons and armor.

At that point I had the best stats I wanted for my build, the best gear you could get. BUT there was one problem. I looked exactly the same as another player who did the same thing as me.

Now on the other hand YES there is a grind in GW2 if you want to look different than the player with the same class as you. BUT does that grind for looks give you better stats....NO. It just makes you stand out.

GW2 doesn't have a grind unless you go for looks. It's the same for the gem shop, it's just looks. It doesn't make you better if you waste money on gems, it just makes you look better...

And on a sidenote, I have been in parties with players who multilple legendaries, and to be honest they died just as much if not even more...

If you want to look good, go ahead and grind,.. but don't complain on the forums afterwards saying there is a grind. Cause it's not A-net's fault you loose to someone in full crafted draconic gear, when you have 6 legendaries....

#7 Dark

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 06:32 AM

GW2 really doesnt have a lot of grind.. IDK why people say it does.

#8 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 07:06 AM

As I said before, I am immensely bothered by levelling. I think the game has more than enough content for the experience to not have to be a grind, and yet, A.Net somehow managed to do just that.
The problem, as mentioned before, is the amount of XP a player can get out of an area, mixed with the foe level range in said area: players need to complete every piece of content the game throws at them just to be able to keep up with the foes in said area. And to make it even worse, given the dynamic nature of the core content, completing all available content isn't a guarantee that the player will gain enough XP. While A.Net does incorporate a few interesting solutions in the form of down-scaling, WvW granting XP (although, sadly, this also means that progression is part of a PvP mode), crafting XP, ... this really doesn't remove the conveyor belt feeling zones evoke, where you need to follow pre-set paths, because anything else will just kill you.

The game would be simply much more interesting if the players were allowed to finish a third or a half of a map and then move onto the next one: it gives players more options in terms of how they want to tackle a specific zone and it actually creates a reason to return to this zone after you've left it.

#9 Bright Star Shine

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 12:32 PM

I personally think the daily rewards are a terrible grind that need to be reworked.

People always say 'they only take like 30 minutes and are super easy!', well, yes, to some extent, but they're just not fun. I hate doing them. I usually don't bother doing them unless I'm 3/5 or 4/5 from just doing random stuff I actually enjoy.

The major issue with them is though that they give a reward that is needed for items that are otherwise unattainable, but are important for certain aspects of the game. Ascended amulets (outside of the triforge one) are not obtainable outside of Laurels, and they are somewhat needed for higher level fractals. I hate the fact I'm basically forced to do something I despise in order to open up content I actually like.

I wouldn't mind if I could get the amulets another way. It could be grindy too, but if it's a grind I enjoy, I don't mind. But the way it's implemented right now, is just broken.

#10 Bryant Again

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:26 PM

Short mention: A full set of exotic dungeon armor costs 1380 tokens, i.e. 23 runs of a dungeon. That's a bit crazy, and I don't think the dungeons have anywhere near the amount of innate replayability to justify the cost.

This isn't to say I haven't done that, of course. I really wanted that TA armor. But now I can't go in there without falling asleep.

#11 Dasviidonja

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:01 PM

There is no grind in any game people are just inherently lazy

#12 Tranquility

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:05 PM

View PostDasviidonja, on 02 June 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

There is no grind in any game people are just inherently lazy

You can't be lazy when it comes to a past time or hobby. Choosing to not partake because you don't enjoy it is not being lazy, it's making a very rational decision.

#13 Trei

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 01:02 AM

View Postdraxynnic, on 02 June 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

...
That said, saying that it's grind when you perform an action for an extrinsic rather than an intrinsic reward is probably the best definition of all - and the more a player is asked to repeat a given task, the more likely they are to cross that threshold. This goes doubly when the extrinsic reward is a gating mechanism to reach some other content that does have an intrinsic reward.
So... The definition of grind has evolved into any action for extrinsic reward? If I'm doing action A for the first and last time and got the Uberhammer I wanted, I am still grinding?
Hey I just did an action (took out wallet to pay vendor) for a reward (hotdog). I just grinded?

Lets not change definitions just to suit one's own argument. We both know grind didn't originate from that.

Edited by Trei, 03 June 2013 - 01:06 AM.


#14 Arewn

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 01:20 AM

So far as I'm concerned, grind in the context of MMORPGs is having to accomplish a task with the sole goal of obtaining a reward, rather then (at least in part) for the enjoyment involved in doing the task, and using a significant(subjective) amount of time to do so.
I think this is roughly what people are thinking when they say GW2 is grindy, as they try to get gold or items.
I think what Arena Net had in mind when they said "get rid of (necessary) grind" is roughly this definition, but specifically for things you HAD to get in order to play the game fully. In other words, gear and levels. Within context of the MMORPG market, leveling in GW2 is quick, and gaining statistically strong gear is also either very quick, or unecessary.
That doesn't mean the game is completely grindless though.

#15 Tranquility

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 02:05 AM

View PostTrei, on 03 June 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

So... The definition of grind has evolved into any action for extrinsic reward? If I'm doing action A for the first and last time and got the Uberhammer I wanted, I am still grinding?
Hey I just did an action (took out wallet to pay vendor) for a reward (hotdog). I just grinded?

Lets not change definitions just to suit one's own argument. We both know grind didn't originate from that.

Doing something that you don't want to do for something that you want is very much a definition of grind. It's arguably the closest you can get to an objective definition in MMOs. All other classifications are subjective and/or relative, and you get hordes of people arguing whether X thing has to be repeated enough to meet the thresholds they personally consider "grind".

Which is essentially "Doing something that you don't want to do X number of times for something that you want", where X varies from person to person. The qualifiers are still doing something that you don't want to do for something that you want. If you want to do the content, it isn't perceived as grind. If you there isn't a goal at the end that you want, then you won't do it anyway, and won't consider it grind.

And that's why making the content actually enjoyable should be argued instead of "better rewards". Better rewards don't matter, they simply change the line in the sand regards who considers it grind, while further alienating people who didn't previously consider it grind. Making the content actually engaging benefits everyone. People complaining about grind should be arguing to make the content fun, rather than having to do less of the content they don't enjoy.

Edited by Tranquility, 03 June 2013 - 02:11 AM.


#16 Tranquility

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 02:23 AM

If we really wanted to break it down further, we could go with categories like exploration, novelty, gameplay, etc.

Things like exploration and novelty, that Guild Wars 2 is actually pretty strong in, have very little staying power. After you explore something a couple times, it has little value.

Gameplay, on the other hand, has almost infinite staying power. This is how actively engaging the game itself is to play. This is how people can play Team Fortress 2 maps thousands of times but still enjoy them. Guild Wars 2 fails miserably in this regard. Every open world battle is clicking an enemy and waiting for your auto attack to kill them. Every dungeon encounter consists of the same thing except adds pressing your dodge button when you are inside a red circle.

As a general rule, singleplayer games can usually get away with being more exploration focused. You're supposed to play them through once or twice and be done, and they don't need staying power because your experience doesn't depend on other people. Multiplayer games generally need to be more gameplay focused, because everyone's experience is impacted by the existence of other people, so the staying power of gameplay needs be enough to keep people engaged. You can't put out enough content to keep people around for the exploration of the game, it just isn't possible. If the gameplay is good enough, you don't need to.

#17 Lycrus

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 02:33 AM

This is something you cant find an answer for. Grind lies in the eyes of the watcher.

What may be for you grind, isnt for me and vice versa.

A short example: I see any task, that is repetetive and i dont enjoy it as grind. But the word "I" is very important. Karka farming might be fun to someone else and suddenly its not a grind anymore.

But all of this was stated many times. And if someone says Gw2 is totally grindy then i will agree with him. Simply because i am adding a "for us" at his end of the sentence. RARELY you can EVER say something which is true for all people. So everything that is said needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Also the word "necessary" has a different meaning for every person playing this game.

On a sidenote i must say that nowadays i am feeling the "grindy" feeling more and more. might be because i am fed up and have seen everything, but i have this feeling that games go away from actually using your rbain to understand it over to...repeating eas ytasks to get said reward. This is also a reason why i enjoy games with story so much...I just cant jump onto this hilarious CoD Bandwagon for example. if you played 1 then you played all..

Edited by Lycrus, 03 June 2013 - 02:38 AM.


#18 Trei

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 02:41 AM

View PostTranquility, on 03 June 2013 - 02:05 AM, said:

Doing something that you don't want to do for something that you want is very much a definition of grind. It's arguably the closest you can get to an objective definition in MMOs. All other classifications are subjective and/or relative, and you get hordes of people arguing whether X thing has to be repeated enough to meet the thresholds they personally consider "grind".

Which is essentially "Doing something that you don't want to do X number of times for something that you want"...
I can agree with that to an extent. But that's not the quoted definition I responded to, you need to read it again; he never mentioned liking or not liking the doing.

But here we are again, "doing something you don't want..."
"You."
Nothing to do with the something, just how you feel towards it.

We can and should argue or let Anet know that we are not so keen on their content so far, but please dont say there is grind in the game.

Grind happens only because and if you do it despite not wanting to, again and again and again, at the expense of other things.

You.

Edited by Trei, 03 June 2013 - 02:47 AM.


#19 Tranquility

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 02:45 AM

View PostTrei, on 03 June 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

I can agree with that to an extent. But that's not the quoted definition I responded to, you need to read it again; he never mentioned liking or not liking the doing.

But here we are again, "doing something you don't want..."
"You."
Nothing to do with the something, just how you feel towards it.

We can and should argue or let Anet know that we are not so keen on their content so far, but please dont say there is grind in the game.

Grind happens only because and if you do it.
You.

Some serious nitpicky semantics arguments here.

Also, likely a bit of you not understanding words.

Doing something for an extrinsic reward not intrinsic means that you don't enjoy whatever it is you are doing.

Edited by Tranquility, 03 June 2013 - 02:46 AM.


#20 draxynnic

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 02:51 AM

View PostTrei, on 03 June 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

So... The definition of grind has evolved into any action for extrinsic reward? If I'm doing action A for the first and last time and got the Uberhammer I wanted, I am still grinding?
Hey I just did an action (took out wallet to pay vendor) for a reward (hotdog). I just grinded?

Lets not change definitions just to suit one's own argument. We both know grind didn't originate from that.
Did you have fun? Then you had an intrinsic and an extrinsic reward.

Perhaps it would have been clearer if I'd said  that it was done purely for an extrinsic rather than an intrinsic reward, or even primarily (since even if you do get some enjoyment from something, it can still feel like grind if you'd rather be doing something else). The general principle is the same.

When you've stopped enjoying something but you continue doing it anyway because you're chasing an extrinsic reward, you're grinding. And the more someone is asked to repeat an activity (especially a low-quality activity) in order to get that extrinsic reward, the more people are going to cross the threshold and the grindier it will be.

As Bryant points out, a full set of dungeon armour requires about twenty runs worth of tokens. For most dungeons, this requires running each path six or seven times. That's a lot of potential for grind.

Edited by draxynnic, 03 June 2013 - 02:52 AM.

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#21 Trei

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 02:59 AM

View PostTranquility, on 03 June 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:



Some serious nitpicky semantics arguments here.

Also, likely a bit of you not understanding words.

Doing something for an extrinsic reward not intrinsic means that you don't enjoy whatever it is you are doing.
If I'm pressured by my guild to do something I don't want, again and again, like say main tank some wow raid, am I grinding? But I don't want anything from those raids...

So does grind necessarily even have anything to do with extrinsic or intrinsic rewards? Or rewards at all?
Dont look at the rewards. That just happen to be the most common cause, not the sole one.

I will reiterate again here:
Grind is a behavior where one repeats to extreme extent a set of activities continuously and frequently.
It does not matter if there's any extrinsic reward.
In fact I'm starting to believeit doesnt even matter if he likes it or not.

It is an action, a personal one.
So if you hate grinding, why dont you just... stop?

Edited by Trei, 03 June 2013 - 03:11 AM.


#22 Andemius

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 03:30 AM

I'd say a grind is having to do something when you'd rather spend your time elsewhere, doing something more enjoyable, but the grinding your having to do it the only reasonable way of doing it.

I'd find gw2 more enjoyable if you didn't have to "grind" for max teir gear. As someone has said, it's a lot of dungeon tokens for 1 set of armor, if you add ascended gear to that, it's much more grinding. Similarly, I don't want to level more characters because it's dull, and I find the replay value (outside of the personal story to L30ish) is near to none. If I could level by following the storyline, and perhaps the dungeon story for each relevant level, I'd be happier than having to chase after hearts and DEs in less populated areas.

Perhaps I've been brainwashed by gw1's policy on grindable stuff. I don't mind if cosmetics are a grind, I do mind if top tier gear is a grind. I think the ability to farm comes in here somewhere, as I'd like to just be able to mooch off somewhere and kill stuff, while still recieving a reasonable reward, but thats a different discussion.

#23 Jentari

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:08 AM

I agree that grind is in the eye of the beholder.  With this in mind it will be very hard to make any game that doesn't have grind in it as there will always be some who will think doing something is grind.

As Andemius said, "I don't mind if COSMETICS are a grind (ie Greens in GW1), I do mind if top gear is a grind."

To add to that I don't mind grinding for gold to buy things but with the current anti-farming policy it does put a damper on this (I am aware that certain dungeons give good gold for a fast run, this is not the point).

I also don't look at grind if it is part of a quest (within reason).  Having to kill 20 of something is ok, but if the quest says kill 100 of something (that cant be 1 shot) then it does get grindy.

#24 Brunella

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:07 AM

View PostJazebel, on 02 June 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

All these thread I see about grind this and grind that.... it's simple GW2 doesn't have a grind. It's real simple as that. When I maxed my first level 80 he was full exotic armor, trinkets and weapons with superior runes and sigils. Just through leveling and doing events, and crafting my weapons and armor.
snip ...and snip...
Really?
Well you must be very lucky then, I levelled up to level 80 3 characters and I did not get one drop item that I could use, I had to sell them and wait till I had enough coins to buy exotic at the TP.
Plus how did u craft anything without grinding for the materials? Usually you need mats to get to level 400? I had to grind a lot for that!
I find GW2 very grinding but that's my point of view because I needed to.... I was not rich and I still am not. Plus I'm not touching the shop I'm not spending real money after I spent so much to get the GW2-collector edition ...thinking it would be very similar to the old one, the title got me trapped, my own fault to believe ArenaNet!

#25 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:20 AM

View PostBryant Again, on 02 June 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Short mention: A full set of exotic dungeon armor costs 1380 tokens, i.e. 23 runs of a dungeon. That's a bit crazy, and I don't think the dungeons have anywhere near the amount of innate replayability to justify the cost.

Something to also keep in mind is the fact that armour isn't the only source of stats in GW2: between armours, runes, trinkets and weapons, I think armour grind is the most  obvious one, but it just might not be the most troubling of them all.
In GW1 the question was, what do you want to do with max gear, whereas in GW2, the question seems to be: how do you want to get (grind) max gear.

#26 The_Blades

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:28 AM

View PostTranquility, on 01 June 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

I've come to the conclusion that people only drop the "grind" bomb when the content itself is not intrinsically fun. When people aren't enjoying doing X content for Y item, they complain about "grind", whereas if they were doing Z content for the same Y item, even if it took longer, they wouldn't complain about the grind if they were having fun doing that content.

I'm not going to repost that Extra Credits episode that has been overly used, but it is kind of the  same vein. People will pursue extrinsic rewards even if there's no intrinsic satisfaction. The people complaining about grind just can't see through it. When something is intrinsically entertaining, then you don't even need extrinsic rewards. Thousands of people have played Team Fortress 2 for hundreds or even thousands of hours, and there is literally no "reward" for doing so. They do it because the game is actually fun to play.

I'll not continue ranting, but I'll just sum it up as, grind only exists because you let it. You're playing a game that you don't like to get "rewards" that don't matter. Once you learn to see through that you'll have a lot more fun in your games, and avoid games that simply replace fun with a skinnerbox loot treadmill.

You're putting it in a very simplistic way. you're sayng its either option B or option A. Theres more to it than that, rewards are, despite what you seem to think, a big part of the fun factor. "YAYYYYYYY i got THAT item", its more fun to do content when there's rewards, its an rpg ffs, its the core design of the rpg genre.

#27 Mastruq

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 09:11 AM

Grinding and playing are two different words for the same activity.

One is used when that activity is fun to the person, the other when they are doing it without enjoying the activity itself. The latter is usually done because it allows the transition to something else the person deems 'fun' or for a reward at the end (cue skinner box etc arguments).

#28 Tranquility

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 09:18 AM

View PostThe_Blades, on 03 June 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

You're putting it in a very simplistic way. you're sayng its either option B or option A. Theres more to it than that, rewards are, despite what you seem to think, a big part of the fun factor. "YAYYYYYYY i got THAT item", its more fun to do content when there's rewards, its an rpg ffs, its the core design of the rpg genre.

Yeah...no.

A crappy game with a lot of "rewards" is still a crappy game.

It does good for people highly susceptible to skinner box techniques, but not much more.

#29 The_Blades

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 10:20 AM

View PostTranquility, on 03 June 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Yeah...no.

A crappy game with a lot of "rewards" is still a crappy game.

It does good for people highly susceptible to skinner box techniques, but not much more.

again, you're taken a simplist route.

I'll give you an example. I had fun doing the dungeons when i was doing the dungeon master, the title was the reward i was after. Now, i dont have fun doing (most) dungeons, i've done them once and got what i wanted (more than once actually). I dont go for legendaries, i dont see it as a fun activity, because the reward is not appealing to me.

I do however grind wvw, over and over it was fun when there was no rewards, but now that there are its even better.

so as you can see, imo, rewards made the game better.

so, reward-fun-grind is something that cant be dissociated,

You're twisting the argument from grind-fun to crappy-good, ofcourse a bad game is a bad game and no reward will save it. Bad is Bad. that crappy-good argument plays nothing to back your original post.

Edited by The_Blades, 03 June 2013 - 10:21 AM.


#30 Tranquility

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 10:40 AM

View PostThe_Blades, on 03 June 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

again, you're taken a simplist route.

I'll give you an example. I had fun doing the dungeons when i was doing the dungeon master, the title was the reward i was after. Now, i dont have fun doing (most) dungeons, i've done them once and got what i wanted (more than once actually). I dont go for legendaries, i dont see it as a fun activity, because the reward is not appealing to me.

I do however grind wvw, over and over it was fun when there was no rewards, but now that there are its even better.

so as you can see, imo, rewards made the game better.

so, reward-fun-grind is something that cant be dissociated,

You're twisting the argument from grind-fun to crappy-good, ofcourse a bad game is a bad game and no reward will save it. Bad is Bad. that crappy-good argument plays nothing to back your original post.

The only thing I'm seeing here is that you had fun doing some activities. Not sure that's the best example of rewards making up for crappy gameplay.




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