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healing hypothetically redesigned

healing regeneration

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#1 Maarius

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 03:07 PM

so what would happen if…
they’d redesign the healing in the game like this:
  • reduce the self-heal significantly
  • increase the regeneration-boon significantly
Still every profession would be able to heal itself, mostly via. regeneration. People who don’t want to focus on selfhealing could use the regeneration from many other sources since boons mostly pop up for yourself and anyone around.
As that would be changed pve-enemies attacks would get a bit weaker so that they don’t 1-hit you any more but make you still very much feel your missed dodge. You’ll have to struggle to survive and get your health back up again while trying to survive instead of 1-heal and everything is perfect again.
Just a food for thought. My goal would be to make regeneration/healing-builds more viable.
Please don’t discuss about the things Anet “promised”. Instead focus on how the healing-design could be made better without making it so we get the trinity back. I don’t want to be reliant on healers, instead I would like to have to option. Don’t forget: regeneration only stacks in duration, not in the power of the heal.

#2 Zhaitan

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 03:29 PM

View PostMaarius, on 03 June 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

so what would happen if…
they’d redesign the healing in the game like this:
  • reduce the self-heal significantly
  • increase the regeneration-boon significantly

Not sure if I understand the motivation of the OP. Is healing broken in this game?

As of today, guards can be totally focussed on healing/regen with secondary focus on damage. Is that what you are looking for? Bit confused.

#3 Maarius

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 03:33 PM

imho each profession should be able to be played supportive. The scaling of Healing Power is almost non-existent, Mesmers for example can trait so that their Phantasms grant Regeneration, it heals for quite nothing though... even when equipped with tons of Healing-Power gear.

I don't want the trinity back, but I want different roles in battle. Support should be possble and viable. At the moment it seems pure DPS is heavily favoured.

#4 Butr0sButr0s

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:06 PM

The underlying problem is (at least with most end game content) you typically go down from one-shots as opposed to repeated lesser hits.  This means that stacking toughness, vitality, healing, and regeneration are fairly pointless for some classes, since you're going to be one shotted regardless of stat setup.

#5 Shadow209

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:28 PM

I was actually pretty disappointed by my necros well of blood. Standing in it does next to nothing, pretty much all of it comes from the initial self heal when casting it. Even if I trait for ground targeted wells and place it at someone elses feet, I basically just heal myself. The fact that all bosses hit slow but hard makes this small heals pretty worthless, even if all party members throw all their heals at one person it's probably a lot less, than if he just used his healing skill. They should ake bosses hit more frequent but do less damage, maybe even give them an AI so they actually move around dodge attacks and make them more challenging in general, without just giving them a lot of hp, so you need a lot of dps, like it's now. Basically making healing and survivability viable.

Then your idea would be nice. Reduce the self heals and buff all the "little" heals. That way, instead of having everyone heal just himself, all party members would need to focus their heals on the guys with low health. You still wouldn't force everyone to get one healer in the party as people could just heal each other, but on the other hand you 'could' have one person take the role of the healer, so others could focus on dps or other stuff.

Just compare it to condition removal: Everyone has some condition removal, so you can care about yourself and don't have to rely on a single person for that. However, you can also have a guardian with shouts that remove conditions from allies. So everyone else in the party can just focus on other stuff (like increasing his dps) and doesn't need to carry condition removal skills.

The most important part, though is redesigning boss fights. Then probably redesign healing skills and/or change the way they scale with healing power to make the stat actually usefull. It's not only about taking different roles, which I think is a good idea and doesn't automatically require to have a trinity. But it's also about supporting each other and play "together" as a team.

#6 Kaaboose

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 09:55 PM

View PostShadow209, on 03 June 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

I was actually pretty disappointed by my necros well of blood. Standing in it does next to nothing, pretty much all of it comes from the initial self heal when casting it. Even if I trait for ground targeted wells and place it at someone elses feet, I basically just heal myself. The fact that all bosses hit slow but hard makes this small heals pretty worthless, even if all party members throw all their heals at one person it's probably a lot less, than if he just used his healing skill. They should ake bosses hit more frequent but do less damage, maybe even give them an AI so they actually move around dodge attacks and make them more challenging in general, without just giving them a lot of hp, so you need a lot of dps, like it's now. Basically making healing and survivability viable.

Then your idea would be nice. Reduce the self heals and buff all the "little" heals. That way, instead of having everyone heal just himself, all party members would need to focus their heals on the guys with low health. You still wouldn't force everyone to get one healer in the party as people could just heal each other, but on the other hand you 'could' have one person take the role of the healer, so others could focus on dps or other stuff.

Just compare it to condition removal: Everyone has some condition removal, so you can care about yourself and don't have to rely on a single person for that. However, you can also have a guardian with shouts that remove conditions from allies. So everyone else in the party can just focus on other stuff (like increasing his dps) and doesn't need to carry condition removal skills.

The most important part, though is redesigning boss fights. Then probably redesign healing skills and/or change the way they scale with healing power to make the stat actually usefull. It's not only about taking different roles, which I think is a good idea and doesn't automatically require to have a trinity. But it's also about supporting each other and play "together" as a team.
Nice to know we have the same views there shadow. Have you seen this post: http://guildwars2gur...2-holy-trinity/
It also would be more in line with the OP's version of the game as well.
I find Well of blood heals for a damn FINE amount espcially when you consider you can heal with regeneration on top of this. (Well of blood + Mark of blood = A LOT of HoT.) but as has been mentined since mobs either hit for nothing or most of your life bar it's not exactly usefull outside of PvP.

Edited by Kaaboose, 03 June 2013 - 09:56 PM.


#7 Jazebel

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:18 PM

I believe that healing (and healing power) scale so bad, and have so little impact in pve, because of the pvp. Imagine higher regens on players on top of toughness. There are so many ways to get perma regen, it would be harder and harder to even kill a bunker. In return they would up the damage on skills, which in return would affect pve, so they would make the mobs have more hp and harder, which in return brings us back to start.

I do agree something has to be done to healing, but it's a very delicate balance.

#8 matsif

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:02 PM

There's nothing wrong with healing in GW2.  The problem is the old definition of support, which in other MMOs is just defensive buffing and healing.  It doesn't fit into how GW2 is played out.  Defensive support like traditional support in GW2 comes in the form of defensive boons like vigor and stability and aegis, things to help you neglect damage all together, not heal over it.  GW2 is balanced around the ability to dodge or block much of the damage in the game, it is not balanced to out heal attacks.  This is why bunker builds don't really work in PvE, you can't outheal bosses hitting you for 10k twice in a short amount of time, and the meta is all about DPS to kill stuff faster than it can kill you.

I'd much rather have decent spike heals like we have now than pissy amounts of HoT regen bursts.  This isn't GW1, regen is limited and regen does nothing to help you recover fast enough to survive 2-5 boss hits, while strategic use of dodge/block/skill 6 will.  If we had skills like healing breeze in GW1 that could stack 10 times the current amount of regen, then I could understand it.  These skills don't exist in GW2, and having regen scale so that it heals 2500 per second instead of the 250 it does when you stack healing power would be grossly OP for some fights and still completely meaningless for others.  If you got that OP regen, you can still get hit by a boss for 10k twice in a row and die unless you are playing a warrior or necro, or it's so overkill for the content you're playing there's no point in having a regen for that amount.

You wanna play support?  Find a class that can spam vigor/stability on the party.  Those 2 boons alone do much more than an increased HoT regen ever could in GW2, and you can still DPS while spamming your defensive boons.  If you're dead-set on your definition of support being healing, then you're gonna have to find a new game, because Anet said during development they didn't want a dedicated healing class.  Healing is balanced right now so that no class is required to be a team healer, and I see nothing wrong with it.

#9 ben911993

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:18 PM

View PostButr0sButr0s, on 03 June 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

The underlying problem is (at least with most end game content) you typically go down from one-shots as opposed to repeated lesser hits.  This means that stacking toughness, vitality, healing, and regeneration are fairly pointless for some classes, since you're going to be one shotted regardless of stat setup.

This. The way the game is balanced, healing isn't intended to be the form of support. In fact, I get the feeling you're not really intended to go the healing route at all. Any gear/traits you spend on pumping up your healing power would be much better spent on raising your damage instead. The return you get for investing in high healing power is so poor that you end up with pretty weak heals anyways, at the cost of making battles drag out longer, creating more room for your group to make mistakes and die.

With the way GW2 is balanced, your best bet for support is to go with condition removal and boons that aren't regeneration or protection, in PvE at least. Don't get me wrong, prot and regen are nice to have, but when you're in situations where an enemy will spike you down in 3 seconds or less, the ~450 health you get from regeneration isn't going to do much, and protection probably won't make a difference anyways. It'd be much more beneficial to the group if you keep dealing consistently high damage while giving aegis, vigor, swiftness, stability, reflects, and blinds.

There's also the option of going support via c/c. A mace/mace + hammer berserker warrior taking Furious and Burst Mastery would be able to spit out c/c, which could be great for stripping defiant stacks on a dungeon boss to interrupt a big attack. It wouldn't do as much damage as an axe/mace + greatsword warrior, but it wouldn't be poor damage either.

In short, don't focus on healing. It's not what's meant to be played in GW2. Focus on other forms of support.

#10 Shadow209

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:29 PM

View PostJazebel, on 04 June 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

I believe that healing (and healing power) scale so bad, and have so little impact in pve, because of the pvp. Imagine higher regens on players on top of toughness. There are so many ways to get perma regen, it would be harder and harder to even kill a bunker. In return they would up the damage on skills, which in return would affect pve, so they would make the mobs have more hp and harder, which in return brings us back to start.

I do agree something has to be done to healing, but it's a very delicate balance.

I also tink, that this is a problem PvE is too much influenced by PvP. Also when they renf PvP skills, they often seem to nerf PvE skills in the same way, even if it that nerf makes no sense in PvE. They need better separation between PvP, WvW and PvE imho.
Then they need to make some massive changes to PvE. I've watched the video, Kaaboose posted, like the proposed changes, especially the changes to defiant sound awesome.

#11 FoxBat

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 04:28 PM

View Postmatsif, on 04 June 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

There's nothing wrong with healing in GW2.

Healing power however is another matter.

Imagine if there weren't tons of items and traits dedicated to this attribute. Then people might get the hint that support healing isn't supposed to be a thing, as opposed to a broken feature leaving frayed ends all over the place.

Edited by FoxBat, 04 June 2013 - 04:44 PM.


#12 nf_zeta

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 04:42 PM

I would actually like to see the OP's idea put into use, i'm one who didn't like the old support system but this would definitely put more importance into carefully handling ur regen buff and dodges, even more so than currently and make the heal less of a insta better situation move and make it something u actually have to actively handle while in fights added another layer to combat which can be felt even in PvE, also would make PvP very interesting as keeping ur damage high enough without getting hit by too many hard hitting moves would really make more of a difference and condition builds would also have a more noticible and substancial effect, would definitely make burst showdowns faster and more intense.

Lol, as i wrote this comment i've found more reasons for arena net to consider this idea, also liking more as i think about it, hopefully it gets there attention.

Edit: Would really suggest u make a copy of this topic and post it on the official forums, if u haven't already.

Edited by nf_zeta, 04 June 2013 - 04:46 PM.


#13 dannywolt

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 01:31 AM

OP's idea would make dedicated healers required in most groups. I'm all for fixing support healing but not at the cost of personal survivability. Endurance regen is slow enough that you can't dodge everything (particularly in melee) and you have to eat some attacks. I prefer having a spike heal rather than needing to retreat to safety when my hp gets low.

View PostMaarius, on 03 June 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

You’ll have to struggle to survive and get your health back up again while trying to survive instead of 1-heal and everything is perfect again.

I don't think struggling to survive is any fun. I already need to do that if something goes wrong and the heal is on CD; I'd rather not do it all the time.

Edited by dannywolt, 05 June 2013 - 01:35 AM.


#14 Tevesh

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 01:56 AM

So anet want to keep ally healing in a low ambient support role, while focusing on well-timed, strategic self-heal usage.  Fine. That's a sound conception. But now let me login into the actual game...

First off, we have this terrible healing stat that pretty much does nothing. The self-heals scale terribly with it and regen scaling is not much better either. Back in the day we had it actually being useful for aoe healing from combo fields..well..that nerf was expected.
As it stands now it does nothing but serve as a noob trap for people who dont frequent the forums and dont delve into the mechanics. Exactly the player base they told us they were targeting with their combat system. Well, that's a miss, then.

Then, not only do we have the healing stat, but we also have the many healing-focused traits. While they may look good on paper, in reality, they do not. And worst of all is the fact that most of them work just fine with 0 healing power slapped onto any kind of build. If they serve no purpose but to marginalize the support role and allow any build to pitch them in as needed without even having to respec most of the time, they do that quite well. It's a source of perpetual pvp balance problems as everyone and their mom gets access to cheap survivability and causes them to whack-a-mole nerf the emerging 'overpowered' builds. The real solution would be giving actual scaling to support effects so that only dedicated support builds could benefit from them...

Which brings us to the third point, which is the overall place of healing and support in the class design. As it stands now, some classes get extensive support capabilities for free while others do not. Some builds get built-in support capabilities due to the weapon skill or trait distribution, while others do not. It wont be until anet realize that they should streamline the tradeoffs different classes are making for inclusion of utility effects in their builds that any kind of balance can possibly be achieved. As it stands now, utility effects are not 'valued' the same across the classes, not to mention they are always valued differently for different traits and skills.

#15 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 02:53 AM

View Postdannywolt, on 05 June 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

not at the cost of personal survivability

This is the only person who has alluded to the fact that all the talk in this thread is about group support healing, but removing burst heals makes soloing near impossible.

But I'm an AH shouts guardian.  I make it a personal policy not to use my 6 heal......you'd be surprised how often I'm successful. :)

#16 NerfHerder

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 08:43 AM

View PostFoxBat, on 04 June 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Healing power however is another matter.

Imagine if there weren't tons of items and traits dedicated to this attribute. Then people might get the hint that support healing isn't supposed to be a thing, as opposed to a broken feature leaving frayed ends all over the place.

I agree and take it one further. We would have been better off with out multiple stats and gear types. The gear only exacerbates already broken builds. Everything should come from your trait lines, not gear. This game would have been much easier to balance. We sure wouldnt have this zerker or gtfo mentality if this was done in the first place. Because everybody would have basically been zerker by default.

If anything, group healing should be nerfed and self healing buffed.

#17 beadnbutter32

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:43 PM

View Postmatsif, on 04 June 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

You wanna play support?  Find a class that can spam vigor/stability on the party.  Those 2 boons alone do much more than an increased HoT regen ever could in GW2, and you can still DPS while spamming your defensive boons.  If you're dead-set on your definition of support being healing, then you're gonna have to find a new game, because Anet said during development they didn't want a dedicated healing class.  Healing is balanced right now so that no class is required to be a team healer, and I see nothing wrong with it.

It's pretty lame to limit the contribution of a whole sector of class skills.  Any group boon can be OP or too weak.  At the moment only DPS, reflects and blocks, are the kinds of boons that are truly effective.  Imagine if there was a Defiant boss ability that worked the same way against damage, or negated blocks and reflects and you might gain some insight as to why people are unhappy with the fact that half of their skills are marginalized.

I don't see anything wrong for simply asking that what is on the tin "dps, support and control' is what you actually get, not just one of the three for those classes that have boon giving skills that are relevant to dps or damage reduction.

Defiant is just about the biggest cop out of awful game design I have ever seen.  It could be scaled back by 50% and still be moronic.

It would do this game a world of good, it all healing, regen and control skills were doubled in their potency.  What we don't need are gimmick boss designs that throw out all skills and rely on some weird unique to the instance 'pat your head, spin around, and say 3 Hail Mary's" kind of Rube Goldberg mechanism.

All these people so butt hurt that they failed as a healer or CC specialist in other games showing so much hate here.

#18 Phadde

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:53 PM

I don't think that this is a good direction. A lot of things should be done about the Damage/Support/Control-issue, but I don't think that this is neither the right way to go, nor a good idea.




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