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#1 Konzacelt

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:19 PM

"You are extremely misinformed and the main problem with what you're saying is you seem to have the flawed notion that 1v1 matters in GW2. Just because profession x can kill profession y (although in this situation Mesmer simply does not win 1v1 against other classes consistently unless they don't know how to play) does not make it game-breaking. GW2 is in no way balanced for 1v1, why should it be? It's a team game and the game mode is Conquest, that's what it's balanced towards. And when a Mesmer/ Thief are used for that purpose, fulfilling the roles they should be filling, against people who know how to play together as well as individually, you'll find that neither of these classes are OP and that you simply don't know what you're on about."

Read this from another thread and copied it here.  When did this happen?  And why did this happen?  I thought GW2 was advertised as an sPvP game, when did ANet say that pvp in GW2 is supposed to be group oriented?

Edited by Konzacelt, 04 June 2013 - 03:19 PM.


#2 Beta Sprite

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:22 PM

It's been that way since the beginning.  Classes are not balanced for 1v1, and some builds will completely counter other builds, or even other professions.  It is this way because balancing for 1v1 is pretty much crap and would homogenize the classes so that they are all on even footing with all other classes.

Why would you expect PvP to not be group oriented when you have teams?

#3 Konzacelt

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 04:36 PM

View PostBeta Sprite, on 04 June 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

It's been that way since the beginning.  Classes are not balanced for 1v1, and some builds will completely counter other builds, or even other professions.  It is this way because balancing for 1v1 is pretty much crap and would homogenize the classes so that they are all on even footing with all other classes.

Why would you expect PvP to not be group oriented when you have teams?

Well...because of the way I roam in W3, I'm rarely with a team.  And having no trinity means everyone should more or less be able to hold their own against any class if played right.  Skill should separate a win or loss, not profession type.  Why get rid of the dps/tank/healer dynamic if you actually can't play solo?  I thought the whole point of that was so you could be a jack-of-all-trades sort of toon.

I mean, theoretically, all you should have to do is switch out your build/specs depending on the situation at hand.  At least that's what I thought ANet was selling to us.  I suppose technically you can...you just have to spend gold on an entirely different gear spec and retrait.  Which really sucks actually.  I mean, why the hell did they make the professions so self-reliant and yet expensive if you want to cater your character to the task at hand?  It just doesn't make sense to me.

Edited by Konzacelt, 04 June 2013 - 04:38 PM.


#4 Beta Sprite

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 04:54 PM

Ah, I misunderstood you when you mentioned PvP.  WvW is halfway between PvE and PvP, and so the dynamic is different.

If you want to roam solo, you're going to need to find a build that does do well against the majority of other classes that you are going to come across, and learn to pick your battles.  If you know that thieves are going to gank you with your build, have an escape plan for when you come across them instead of trying to take them on.

To cover up your build's weaknesses, you need to bring other people along.  I would suggest finding a WvW guild and getting a roaming group together, if that's what you want to do.

#5 FoxBat

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:01 PM

sPvP is the sPvP game, where there is some effort at balance, team numbers are equal, and gear is free. WvW is not an "sPvP game," and it's pretty much as far as you can get from a "dueling game."

#6 Konzacelt

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:03 PM

View PostBeta Sprite, on 04 June 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

Ah, I misunderstood you when you mentioned PvP.  WvW is halfway between PvE and PvP, and so the dynamic is different.

If you want to roam solo, you're going to need to find a build that does do well against the majority of other classes that you are going to come across, and learn to pick your battles.  If you know that thieves are going to gank you with your build, have an escape plan for when you come across them instead of trying to take them on.

To cover up your build's weaknesses, you need to bring other people along.  I would suggest finding a WvW guild and getting a roaming group together, if that's what you want to do.

Hmm...well it depends really.  If you're running with the zerg you need PVT gear and AoE skills.  If you're running havoc squads or escort or roaming you need an entirely different build.  I wouldn't say W3 is PvE at all though, that's a common misconception.  I've found it much more competitive than, say, 3v3 PvP.  At any rate, you still need different specs depending on what you want to do there.

#7 Phadde

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:14 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 04 June 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Skill should separate a win or loss, not profession type.

And it does just that. However, winning or losing the match isn't determined by who wins the 1v1s

#8 The Shadow

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:43 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 04 June 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

"You are extremely misinformed and the main problem with what you're saying is you seem to have the flawed notion that 1v1 matters in GW2. Just because profession x can kill profession y (although in this situation Mesmer simply does not win 1v1 against other classes consistently unless they don't know how to play) does not make it game-breaking. GW2 is in no way balanced for 1v1, why should it be? It's a team game and the game mode is Conquest, that's what it's balanced towards. And when a Mesmer/ Thief are used for that purpose, fulfilling the roles they should be filling, against people who know how to play together as well as individually, you'll find that neither of these classes are OP and that you simply don't know what you're on about."

Read this from another thread and copied it here.  When did this happen?  And why did this happen?  I thought GW2 was advertised as an sPvP game, when did ANet say that pvp in GW2 is supposed to be group oriented?

For future reference, if you're going to quote me and start a new thread about said quote I'd appreciate it if you could actually quote me so I can find out about the thread, I mean, I found this thread by luck, but I'd hate to not be able to further justify the points I make if prompted, purely because I didn't know that I was quoted.

Thanks.

#9 Konzacelt

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:48 PM

Shadow

Sorry bud, I was mostly wanting to comment on the 1v1 aspect of your post, and not the whole mesmer viability thing.  But you're right, I was in a hurry before lunch and just used the quote itself.

#10 MisterB

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:53 PM

This is not a fighting game, where two players duel one another. All of the player combat assumes that teams or multiple players are present on both sides.

#11 Konzacelt

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:58 PM

View PostPhadde, on 04 June 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

And it does just that. However, winning or losing the match isn't determined by who wins the 1v1s

Technically true, but the real spirit of PvP isn't in match points or leader boards.  It's in who wins on the field at any given time, I thought that was a given. :(  Whether or not it's 1v1 or 20v20 the same thing holds true.  Just like there are teams out there who can lose the little skirmishes in the arena while winning the match because of superb point taking, there are servers out there who can win in WvW points every week hands down yet lose most of the even fights on the field...it's a numbers game.

#12 Katsumi Kei

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:09 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 04 June 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

thought GW2 was advertised as an sPvP game, when did ANet say that pvp in GW2 is supposed to be group oriented?
I believe GW2 was advertised as jack-of-all-trades, not as sPVP game. While they never said that PVP is group orientated, they also never suggested the opposite. The game is build that way, why do you think there is no duelling option in the game? While they took the trinity away, every class is made so it can support in some way the other classess. Winning in 1v1 is determened by both skill level and build. Balance is out of the question, it's mostly a matter of setup.

I don't think this is bad, it's just the idea of the game modes.

#13 The Shadow

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 06:24 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 04 June 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

Technically true, but the real spirit of PvP isn't in match points or leader boards.  It's in who wins on the field at any given time, I thought that was a given. :(  Whether or not it's 1v1 or 20v20 the same thing holds true.  Just like there are teams out there who can lose the little skirmishes in the arena while winning the match because of superb point taking, there are servers out there who can win in WvW points every week hands down yet lose most of the even fights on the field...it's a numbers game.

WvW is a numbers game, generally speaking, the server with most up-time and most players will win regardless of who actually wins the battles during prime-time.

With PvP it's still a numbers game, you win by strategizing in such a way that you outnumber your opponent in every encounter. There is almost no point engaging in a balanced fight, because then it comes down to who has the most skills on cool-down.

If you are having a 1v1 in a Tournament game you are doing something wrong. The only time a 1v1 should take place is when you send someone to neutralize far-point, and even then, the actual 1v1 itself doesn't matter, because the point is the priority not the battle.

If you send a bunker Ele to far-point, and there's a BM ranger on said point, and the Ele manages to neautralize it so that the opposing team is no longer ticking, you have won that battle. That is what matters, not who eventually kills the other 1v1, because generally, the opposing team will quickly send back-up to their close-point and make it a 2v1. If the Ele manages to bail and survive the encounter, that is another battle won.

Of course you can chase low opponents away from fights, if you're team is winning a mid-fight, but that's not really a 1v1, it's just finishing them off and forcing a timer.

#14 Konzacelt

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:31 PM

View PostKatsumi Kei, on 04 June 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

I believe GW2 was advertised as jack-of-all-trades, not as sPVP game. While they never said that PVP is group orientated, they also never suggested the opposite. The game is build that way, why do you think there is no duelling option in the game? While they took the trinity away, every class is made so it can support in some way the other classess. Winning in 1v1 is determened by both skill level and build. Balance is out of the question, it's mostly a matter of setup.

I don't think this is bad, it's just the idea of the game modes.

Hmm, well I thought they made a big deal of PvP possibly being an eSport...which connotes individual merit to me but I could be wrong about that.  The no dueling thing I assumed was because of ANet's strict anti-griefing policy, just like not being able to see names in W3, and lots of other stuff.  I don't know what it is about it, but there's something I just can't grasp lol. :huh:

View PostThe Shadow, on 04 June 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

WvW is a numbers game, generally speaking, the server with most up-time and most players will win regardless of who actually wins the battles during prime-time.

With PvP it's still a numbers game, you win by strategizing in such a way that you outnumber your opponent in every encounter. There is almost no point engaging in a balanced fight, because then it comes down to who has the most skills on cool-down.

If you are having a 1v1 in a Tournament game you are doing something wrong. The only time a 1v1 should take place is when you send someone to neutralize far-point, and even then, the actual 1v1 itself doesn't matter, because the point is the priority not the battle.

If you send a bunker Ele to far-point, and there's a BM ranger on said point, and the Ele manages to neautralize it so that the opposing team is no longer ticking, you have won that battle. That is what matters, not who eventually kills the other 1v1, because generally, the opposing team will quickly send back-up to their close-point and make it a 2v1. If the Ele manages to bail and survive the encounter, that is another battle won.

Of course you can chase low opponents away from fights, if you're team is winning a mid-fight, but that's not really a 1v1, it's just finishing them off and forcing a timer.

I see your point, but isn't there somewhere where it's not about points or numbers or timers?  Where are the plain-old random fights where you can just weave in and out of large-group battles to small or 1v1 encounters and it's there just for the fun of it?  Like, you just want to kill your opponent...not deny him a point position or tower or whatever.

Edited by Konzacelt, 04 June 2013 - 07:32 PM.


#15 The Shadow

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:54 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 04 June 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

I see your point, but isn't there somewhere where it's not about points or numbers or timers?  Where are the plain-old random fights where you can just weave in and out of large-group battles to small or 1v1 encounters and it's there just for the fun of it?  Like, you just want to kill your opponent...not deny him a point position or tower or whatever.

Hot-join. You get zerged like in WvW, none of your team mates rez you, they care about killing each other not objectives/ points.

You can get some 1v1s sometimes.

#16 Knuckle Joe

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:13 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 04 June 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

I see your point, but isn't there somewhere where it's not about points or numbers or timers?  Where are the plain-old random fights where you can just weave in and out of large-group battles to small or 1v1 encounters and it's there just for the fun of it?  Like, you just want to kill your opponent...not deny him a point position or tower or whatever.

With the implementation of custom arenas, you can find plenty of 1v1 dueling arenas in the sPvP game broswer. People usually are polite and they understand that the point of the room is to 1v1, not wreak havoc and zerg somebody, you can just wander around and nobody attacks you. They don't stomp you and they don't capture points.

Of course, every once in a while a retard pops up and starts interrupting duels and such, but they get taken care of pretty fast by the opposing team. It is not a formal dueling arena, but gets the job done.

It is frankly something new and refreshing from me, a change of pace to the ordinary sPvP, WvW, PvE dungeons and stuff.

Edited by Knuckle Joe, 04 June 2013 - 08:17 PM.


#17 ObscureThreat

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:17 PM

With many of the flaws in GW2, its emphasis on team PVP is not one of them. Guild Wars has always been about team play rather than 1v1. It's fine if you want to roam solo in WvWvW, but expect to lose to some builds/classes. Part of PvP & WvWvW, is countering builds and strategies employed by other players. If you want to say counter say burst mesmers/thieves, build defensive, but you will lose out to other builds. PvP in Guild Wars will always be about team synergy, it was built that way & a design philosophy I'm glad ANET has stuck with.

#18 Norseman

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:41 PM

I solo roam in WvW pretty consistently, and that's what I did in DAoC also. Nope it's not what the intent of the game's designers is. But I enjoy it as do many others. I think, in a 1v1 view, that the classes are pretty balanced. You have to pay attention and understand each classes playstyle and strengths and weaknesses. For example, thieves are OP if you're not paying attention or one gets the jump on you while you're busy fighting someone else. But if I see one coming and prevent the initial spike, they have to run away or die.

Anyway the point is, you can run solo if that is what you enjoy. The one thing that has changed over the years is respect for solo'ers. Back in the dark ages when we were playing DAoC, if players saw a 1v1, we just ran by and left them to do their thing. These days if a 1v1 is spotted it's gonna get steamrolled. So it is more of a challenge to get a good 1v1 and actually have time to finish it without getting rolled.

#19 Digilodger

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 01:30 AM

View PostKonzacelt, on 04 June 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

I thought GW2 was advertised as an sPvP game, when did ANet say that pvp in GW2 is supposed to be group oriented?

View PostKonzacelt, on 04 June 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Well...because of the way I roam in W3, I'm rarely with a team.  And having no trinity means everyone should more or less be able to hold their own against any class if played right.  Skill should separate a win or loss, not profession type.  Why get rid of the dps/tank/healer dynamic if you actually can't play solo?  I thought the whole point of that was so you could be a jack-of-all-trades sort of toon.

Here's your problem:  You started off in your original post mentioning sPvP, then suddenly reviewed 2 posts later that you're talking about WvW exclusively, not sPvP/tPvP.  That's some ridiculous inconsistency you're throwing out there. <_<


WvW and 1v1 capability of WvW players are completely different from sPvP/tPvP and sPvP/tPvP players.
  • In WvW, most of us are running with our PvE traits and gears, usually designed specifically for dungeons, not PvP.
  • Many WvW players have never or rarely join sPvP/tPvP matches at all.  They have little experience fighting players 1v1.
  • In WvW, AoE and movement capabilities are valued more because of the size of the zergs and the size of the map.  These, of course, take away some of our capabilities for 1v1 situations.
========================

In sPvP/tPvP, obviously a better player will win.  However, between players of similar skill levels, sometimes it's a matter of "bad match" between different builds as well.  Some mechanics can shut off another easier than others.


For example, when I'm playing a d/d elementalist, my worst enemy is a confusion-bomber mesmer.   As d/d ele, I rely on constant movement and constant casting.  A good confusion-bomber mesmer can completely break this apart by applying confusions faster than I can clean my conditions.

Another example would be when I playing a shatter or phantasm variation of mesmer against a high-burst, stealthy, d/d thief and bunker guardian.  When I play shatter variations, I do well against that kind of thief, but bad against that kind of guardian.  When I play the phantasm variation, I do well against that guardian, but bad against that thief.

-----------------------------

Another thing is that while we can do everything, we have to be traited to do those things.

For example, engineer can be a bunker or a dps roamer.  Yes, we can do both.  However, we can only do one at a time.  If we're traited and geared to be bunker, then we're bunker engi; if we're traited and geared for high dps, then we're the killers.

Edited by Digilodger, 11 June 2013 - 01:34 AM.


#20 Featherman

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:39 AM

I don't understand why people are debating about this. From the beginning GW2 was a meant to be looked at rather than played. The entire notion of 1v1 vs TvT is entirely irrelevant to the game's overall design.

In all seriousness I think one of the biggest issues with GW2 is that professions are balanced towards their efficacy in actual team arena combat rather than overall map strategies and strategic counters; the professions are clearly out of tune when it comes to using terrain/movement and positioning as strategy. When you look at it this way, GW2's version of conquest is basically 3 arenas with rather gimmicky secondary mechanics.

#21 Konzacelt

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:50 PM

View PostDigilodger, on 11 June 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

Here's your problem:  You started off in your original post mentioning sPvP, then suddenly reviewed 2 posts later that you're talking about WvW exclusively, not sPvP/tPvP.  That's some ridiculous inconsistency you're throwing out there. <_<


WvW and 1v1 capability of WvW players are completely different from sPvP/tPvP and sPvP/tPvP players.
  • In WvW, most of us are running with our PvE traits and gears, usually designed specifically for dungeons, not PvP.
  • Many WvW players have never or rarely join sPvP/tPvP matches at all.  They have little experience fighting players 1v1.
  • In WvW, AoE and movement capabilities are valued more because of the size of the zergs and the size of the map.  These, of course, take away some of our capabilities for 1v1 situations.
========================

In sPvP/tPvP, obviously a better player will win.  However, between players of similar skill levels, sometimes it's a matter of "bad match" between different builds as well.  Some mechanics can shut off another easier than others.


For example, when I'm playing a d/d elementalist, my worst enemy is a confusion-bomber mesmer.   As d/d ele, I rely on constant movement and constant casting.  A good confusion-bomber mesmer can completely break this apart by applying confusions faster than I can clean my conditions.

Another example would be when I playing a shatter or phantasm variation of mesmer against a high-burst, stealthy, d/d thief and bunker guardian.  When I play shatter variations, I do well against that kind of thief, but bad against that kind of guardian.  When I play the phantasm variation, I do well against that guardian, but bad against that thief.

-----------------------------

Another thing is that while we can do everything, we have to be traited to do those things.

For example, engineer can be a bunker or a dps roamer.  Yes, we can do both.  However, we can only do one at a time.  If we're traited and geared to be bunker, then we're bunker engi; if we're traited and geared for high dps, then we're the killers.

Oh I see what you're getting at.  The thing is, I don't play W3 the way you are describing it.  Zerg warfare devours my fps to the point where it's almost unplayable for me, so I don't usually do that.  My traits and armor are designed for solo or small group combat, I've done maybe a dozen fractal and dungeon runs in my entire 2.5k hours of gameplay so I really have no idea how to do those.  I have not done much sPvP at all, however, 1v1 is the rule and not the exception for me in W3.  And while I agree mobility is king for W3, I don't use AoE's hardly at all...for the above reasons.

I mentioned sPvP in my post because, for all practical purposes, it's the closest thing I have to relate to in W3 instead of what peeps usually think when W3 is mentioned.  I do defense/supply/scouting, which means 90% of my experience there is either 1v1 or small group(1-5 v 1-5).  As such, I find it fairly difficult to come up with a broad-based build that I can use for many different encounters.  And I don't mean the ability to excel at each situation, I just mean the ability to survive decently while still accomplishing what I need to do.  Constantly having to stop, get out of combat, and switch up traits/weapons/skills to suit a particular niche situation gets old...fast.

ObcsureThreat's post is actually the most helpful I think.  Seeing GW2 in the way he describes helps me to understand the combat mechanics better.  Thanks for that.  :)

#22 Dasviidonja

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 11:35 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 04 June 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

"You are extremely misinformed and the main problem with what you're saying is you seem to have the flawed notion that 1v1 matters in GW2. Just because profession x can kill profession y (although in this situation Mesmer simply does not win 1v1 against other classes consistently unless they don't know how to play) does not make it game-breaking. GW2 is in no way balanced for 1v1, why should it be? It's a team game and the game mode is Conquest, that's what it's balanced towards. And when a Mesmer/ Thief are used for that purpose, fulfilling the roles they should be filling, against people who know how to play together as well as individually, you'll find that neither of these classes are OP and that you simply don't know what you're on about."

Read this from another thread and copied it here.  When did this happen?  And why did this happen?  I thought GW2 was advertised as an sPvP game, when did ANet say that pvp in GW2 is supposed to be group oriented?

No it was never advertised as sPvP as the main part of the game you must have gotten confused thinking it was a mere PVP game with a PVE skin. Hardly because more players play PVE than PVP in 99.9% of all these MMO's. Get used to it it's a reality. :{P

#23 BartenderMan

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:28 AM

View PostDigilodger, on 11 June 2013 - 01:30 AM, said:

In WvW, most of us are running with our PvE traits and gears, usually designed specifically for dungeons, not PvP.

I just have to mention that just because you are running the same gear and traits as PvE, it doesn't mean you're gonna use the same gear and/or traits in WvW that you would in dungeons; retraiting barely costs a thing and you can easily get a secondary gear set for your WvW needs (whether it's solo roaming, zerging or both).

It is also worth mentioning that some runes, sigils, traits, skills and mechanics (reveal) work differently in WvW than in sPvP and in most cases are actually stronger in WvW.

#24 Trei

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:58 AM

View PostKonzacelt, on 04 June 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

Read this from another thread and copied it here.  When did this happen?  And why did this happen?  I thought GW2 was advertised as an sPvP game, when did ANet say that pvp in GW2 is supposed to be group oriented?
The 'S' in SPvP stands for Structured, not Solo or Singles.

#25 Konzacelt

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:35 PM

View PostBartenderMan, on 15 June 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

...retraiting barely costs a thing and you can easily get a secondary gear set for your WvW needs (whether it's solo roaming, zerging or both).

Retraiting yes...2ndary gearset no.  It took me weeks to equip my single toon in all exotics, it's now taking me months to do ascended trinkets.  And yes, a 5% difference in stats matters.

#26 BartenderMan

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:33 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 18 June 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Retraiting yes...2ndary gearset no.  It took me weeks to equip my single toon in all exotics, it's now taking me months to do ascended trinkets.  And yes, a 5% difference in stats matters.

Depends on the set and what you are willing to spend. 3-4 days of farming and you can get enough gold to just straight up buy most gear combinations. If you were to focus on farming CoF during that duration, you can get either berserker's, rampager's, or valkyrie's gear using the acquired tokens and still have gold to spare on anything else you need. If you have enough karma you can also get several other gear sets in no time.

Ascended gear does take time, but not for all of it. Rings can take you 5 days each assuming you don't get lucky and only do the daily 10 and 20. Amulet can be gotten in 10 days of dailies and one monthly if you play WvW, or 20 days if you don't. Accessories can take the longest depending on what guild missions your guild has available and how successful you are in doing them. Will take 6 weeks if all you have available are the bounties, much less if you have more. Also, most times the trinkets don't need to be changed between builds.

If you really want to get a second or third gear set ASAP, you can; you just have to be willing to spend the time and/or gold to acquire it.

#27 Mhenlo

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 11:12 PM

Just because PvP happens to be 5v5 doesn't mean sPvP is balanced for 5v5. Currently, the game is still balanced and designed around solo play, which is how the majority of the game plays. sPvP needs a lot of tweaking before it ever becomes more team oriented. As such, I don't think PvP is designed around 1v1 or XvX, it is just a bunch of crap randomly thrown together based off the mostly PvE portion of the game.

tl;dr GW2 is based around solo PvE NOT team PvP.




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