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One thing at a time: How to add an inkling of depth to the end of the GW2 story


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#1 theoxygenthief

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 03:56 PM

Spoiler

Yes, it's not perfect and full of holes, and doesn't gel with the rest of the GW2 world as it wasn't written in. I am merely illustrating a point - The story and it's ending is extremely 1 dimensional and predictable and a huge let down for me personally (great if you don't agree, glad you liked it, I didn't)

Edited by theoxygenthief, 07 June 2013 - 04:32 PM.


#2 Phadde

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 04:18 PM

I think that they should do something about the Zhaitan-fight itself, but they already have the rest of the story planned - and it sounds awesome.

#3 Coren

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 04:20 PM

Oh Ilove it :) very Warhammer 40'000 grim realistic ending:) destroy a primal force, destroy part of the world.

Kinda reminds me of Mass.Effect is some way (no insult meant ;))

#4 ObscureThreat

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 08:04 PM

View PostCoren, on 07 June 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

Oh Ilove it :) very Warhammer 40'000 grim realistic ending:) destroy a primal force, destroy part of the world.

Kinda reminds me of Mass.Effect is some way (no insult meant ;))

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

Sorry whenever someone mentions 40K I do that. On to the point, yes I do like that type of ending. Not the themes of the races becoming greedy and exploiting the world, but something like that the Dragons are part of Tyria. What I wanted to see was a war between the gods & the dragons. Or something else other than the typical band of adventurers save the day.

#5 Coren

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:41 AM

View PostObscureThreat, on 07 June 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:



BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

Sorry whenever someone mentions 40K I do that. On to the point, yes I do like that type of ending. Not the themes of the races becoming greedy and exploiting the world, but something like that the Dragons are part of Tyria. What I wanted to see was a war between the gods & the dragons. Or something else other than the typical band of adventurers save the day.

Bah, Khorne is too boring, accept Slaanesh, we know how to expand your mind to new kind of sensory overload and physical depravity ;)

On topic: I truely wanted a darker spin like in GW1, Prophecies, where you did beat the Lich, but the scepter of Orr.vanishes and only reappears years later with Lyvia, and a Titan invasion to push back. That was a good bittersweet ending.

#6 Arshay Duskbrow

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 07:08 AM

View Posttheoxygenthief, on 07 June 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

Spoiler

Yes, it's not perfect and full of holes, and doesn't gel with the rest of the GW2 world as it wasn't written in. I am merely illustrating a point - The story and it's ending is extremely 1 dimensional and predictable and a huge let down for me personally (great if you don't agree, glad you liked it, I didn't)

Oh look, it's another of the ENDLESS, ENDLESS takes on "the sentient races have sinned against nature, now face GAIA'S WRATH". One dimensional and predictable? You just wrote it.

Yeah, no thanks. Really glad you're not in charge of the story. I'm tired of grimdark aren't-we-just-so-horrible grey on grey morality that wannabe edgy teenagers lap up like honey. I'll take Trahearne over that a million times, because the Sylvari and the Pale Tree show that we ARE on the side of nature and the planet.

Edited by Arshay Duskbrow, 08 June 2013 - 07:19 AM.


#7 Coren

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 08:45 AM

View PostArshay Duskbrow, on 08 June 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:



Oh look, it's another of the ENDLESS, ENDLESS takes on "the sentient races have sinned against nature, now face GAIA'S WRATH". One dimensional and predictable? You just wrote it.

Yeah, no thanks. Really glad you're not in charge of the story. I'm tired of grimdark aren't-we-just-so-horrible grey on grey morality that wannabe edgy teenagers lap up like honey. I'll take Trahearne over that a million times, because the Sylvari and the Pale Tree show that we ARE on the side of nature and the planet.

Not everything is about angsty teenagers you know. Some of us like shades of morality, makes you think on consequences of our actions.

Edited by Coren, 08 June 2013 - 08:46 AM.


#8 Mastruq

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 10:50 AM

The story is written, a big rewrite is unlikely anyway... so if Anet is intending any fixes thy should adjust the upcoming stories accordingly. Sloppy presentation aside the Southsun story isnt half bad, with all 4 involved groups having reasons for their action (Canach, The Consortium, the settlers and the Lionguard). It's just really badly presented in game so you have to piece together alot and assume alot.

I wish they wouldnt have gone with "end of the world" threats anyway, its hard to keep that up. Look at Dragonball Z for funny ridiculousness. You can do much better story-telling with threats that endanger a town or kingdom or region if not dealt with, and the ones dealing with that problem are still the heroes. Mix that with some small stories about individuals and have a better concept for your game's story then "this world-shattering threat is dealt with, followed by this world-shattering threat, and then that one."

Plus, if you go with smaller threats you can have one actually win once in a while, because the end of every crusade against an Elder Dragon is a foregone conclusion at this point. How could it not be, losing is equal to shutting off the game, lore-wise. On the other hand, if a major story arc dealth with the fate of Ebonhawke instead of handwaving it off-screen, the outcome could have been uncertain. A major story arc dealing with the only chance the united tyrian nations have at attacking Zhaitan, with failure losing them all their combat ressources. Story-wise its an obvious win before you even step foot in the instance.

#9 theoxygenthief

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 05:26 PM

View PostArshay Duskbrow, on 08 June 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Oh look, it's another of the ENDLESS, ENDLESS takes on "the sentient races have sinned against nature, now face GAIA'S WRATH". One dimensional and predictable? You just wrote it.

Yeah, no thanks. Really glad you're not in charge of the story. I'm tired of grimdark aren't-we-just-so-horrible grey on grey morality that wannabe edgy teenagers lap up like honey. I'll take Trahearne over that a million times, because the Sylvari and the Pale Tree show that we ARE on the side of nature and the planet.

Yeah thanks for being such a stand up human being, insulting others on forums for no good reason makes you a much better person, everyone knows that.

1) I am not a writer by profession, nor do I claim to be
2) This is me using a weakly constructed, 5 minutes of my time example to illustrate some of the directions this could have gone in; I am pretty sure it's just some other game's ending stuck in my head that I regurgitated. I am very well aware that it is quite stereotypical and not that great. If I had 8 years to write a story in I'm pretty sure I could do much much MUCH better.

Themes like love, loss, the nature of conflict, revenge, growth and learning, dealing with change, the grey nature of the concepts of good and evil, the stresses and perils of leadership all make for great storytelling. GW2 touches on some of these but barely and only in the most superficial sense imaginable. I think it's biggest failure might be that it tries too hard to cover all of these but with no sense of continuity or consequences.

Regarding "...because the Sylvari and the Pale Tree show that we ARE on the side of nature and the planet": Thanks for making me laugh. My favourite part is when my Sylvari Necromancer Auto-dialogues "all have a right to grow" happily while slaughtering an innocent bear and her cubs for their sins; being too close to a random mineral node

View PostMastruq, on 08 June 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

The story is written, a big rewrite is unlikely anyway... so if Anet is intending any fixes thy should adjust the upcoming stories accordingly. Sloppy presentation aside the Southsun story isnt half bad, with all 4 involved groups having reasons for their action (Canach, The Consortium, the settlers and the Lionguard). It's just really badly presented in game so you have to piece together alot and assume alot.

I wish they wouldnt have gone with "end of the world" threats anyway, its hard to keep that up. Look at Dragonball Z for funny ridiculousness. You can do much better story-telling with threats that endanger a town or kingdom or region if not dealt with, and the ones dealing with that problem are still the heroes. Mix that with some small stories about individuals and have a better concept for your game's story then "this world-shattering threat is dealt with, followed by this world-shattering threat, and then that one."

Plus, if you go with smaller threats you can have one actually win once in a while, because the end of every crusade against an Elder Dragon is a foregone conclusion at this point. How could it not be, losing is equal to shutting off the game, lore-wise. On the other hand, if a major story arc dealth with the fate of Ebonhawke instead of handwaving it off-screen, the outcome could have been uncertain. A major story arc dealing with the only chance the united tyrian nations have at attacking Zhaitan, with failure losing them all their combat ressources. Story-wise its an obvious win before you even step foot in the instance.

I like your take on this. Yes I think intimate stories are much more effective. In the end it's the personal losses that stick with us the most, Tybalt is the only light in GW2 in my opinion.

Edited by theoxygenthief, 08 June 2013 - 05:28 PM.


#10 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 07:22 PM

View PostMastruq, on 08 June 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

Plus, if you go with smaller threats you can have one actually win once in a while

I think it would be cool if the balance between factions continually changed with occasional content updates.  For example, maybe for July, the Branded make a big push into Ascalon, taking over regions they don't presently hold.  Perhaps in August they get pushed back, although maybe not back to their original boundaries.

Similar to what they did with the Molten Alliance, but more permanent than just popping up in a few areas every so often for the duration of an event.

The biggest trick to that is what to do with heart vendors and perhaps waypoints in newly contested areas.  You can't just remove heart vendors, and moving them could be tricky.

View PostMastruq, on 08 June 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

the end of every crusade against an Elder Dragon is a foregone conclusion at this point. How could it not be, losing is equal to shutting off the game, lore-wise . . . . . A major story arc dealing with the only chance the united tyrian nations have at attacking Zhaitan, with failure losing them all their combat ressources. Story-wise its an obvious win before you even step foot in the instance.

Not necessarily.  Writers often write seemingly impossible defeats, then write their way out of it.  Sometimes it seems a bit gimmicky, but it can also be brilliantly executed.  Someone above talked about wanted to see a war between the gods and dragons.  Well perhaps an Elder Dragon wins, but another entity, maybe good, maybe evil, but powerful, rises up and challenges the dragon.  It would probably be better if the challenger were evil, so then the heroes of Tyria have to dodge between the destructive war of these two factions, and perhaps uses that as an opportunity to stop them both.

Or maybe give them a moral dilemma as to which one to stop, because they cannot defeat both.  ANet could get really clever, and track players' participation in events that favor one side or the other, and whichever side is the eventual victor determines the next content patch, and who is the biggest threat on the block for the time being.  Player control of future content?  Sounds like a winner to me. :)

And if ANet would like my resume.......lol j/k

Edited by Reason on Cooldown, 08 June 2013 - 07:23 PM.


#11 asbasb

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 07:43 PM

Make the final boss Captain Planet.

#12 Arshay Duskbrow

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 11:12 PM

View Posttheoxygenthief, on 08 June 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Regarding "...because the Sylvari and the Pale Tree show that we ARE on the side of nature and the planet": Thanks for making me laugh. My favourite part is when my Sylvari Necromancer Auto-dialogues "all have a right to grow" happily while slaughtering an innocent bear and her cubs for their sins; being too close to a random mineral node

Doesn't that just make your Sylvari a hypocritical bastard? But that's just what you wanted isn't it! So dark and edgy! I know you're one of those people who wishes they could be in the Nightmare Court.

Edited by Arshay Duskbrow, 08 June 2013 - 11:12 PM.


#13 ExplosivePinata

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:05 AM

First things first, I just want to complete MY story without being forced to group up. I still haven't completed it since headstart. An option with henchies or something is sorely needed. Not because I don't want to play with others or anything because I'm sure my Guildies would help me out but it's my damn story. Imagine if Mass Effect 3 along with the ending fiasco also said "Ok, you need to login to multiplayer to complete the final mission in your single player portion of the game" no doubt people would have went ballistic, well, ballistic + :lol:

Edited by ExplosivePinata, 09 June 2013 - 02:28 AM.


#14 theoxygenthief

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 01:42 AM

View PostArshay Duskbrow, on 08 June 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

Doesn't that just make your Sylvari a hypocritical bastard? But that's just what you wanted isn't it! So dark and edgy! I know you're one of those people who wishes they could be in the Nightmare Court.

Yeah, because you know, when I started the game I went and edited the sound files and put in that line of auto-dialogue myself because playing a game where there is consistency and suspension of disbelief would be too much for me. I also personally petitioned the game developers 8 years ago to please allow the race that they design as revering all nature to slaughter all and and any defenseless animals that are in any inconvenient locations, and asked them to please make it compulsory if possible.

What you have is a gift: take any statement, assume it's all about you, your preconceived ideas and what you want from the world and turn it into a completely misdirected weak attempt at a personal insult. Cherish it, put it on your CV, I'm sure it will bring you nothing but joy and prosperity in future.

#15 ExplosivePinata

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 02:32 AM

View Posttheoxygenthief, on 09 June 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

Yeah, because you know, when I started the game I went and edited the sound files and put in that line of auto-dialogue myself because playing a game where there is consistency and suspension of disbelief would be too much for me. I also personally petitioned the game developers 8 years ago to please allow the race that they design as revering all nature to slaughter all and and any defenseless animals that are in any inconvenient locations, and asked them to please make it compulsory if possible.

What you have is a gift: take any statement, assume it's all about you, your preconceived ideas and what you want from the world and turn it into a completely misdirected weak attempt at a personal insult. Cherish it, put it on your CV, I'm sure it will bring you nothing but joy and prosperity in future.

That was funny :)

#16 Arshay Duskbrow

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 02:44 AM

View Posttheoxygenthief, on 09 June 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

Yeah, because you know, when I started the game I went and edited the sound files and put in that line of auto-dialogue myself because playing a game where there is consistency and suspension of disbelief would be too much for me. I also personally petitioned the game developers 8 years ago to please allow the race that they design as revering all nature to slaughter all and and any defenseless animals that are in any inconvenient locations, and asked them to please make it compulsory if possible.

What you have is a gift: take any statement, assume it's all about you, your preconceived ideas and what you want from the world and turn it into a completely misdirected weak attempt at a personal insult. Cherish it, put it on your CV, I'm sure it will bring you nothing but joy and prosperity in future.

"Weak attempt at a personal insult" is what you just did. Everything I said there was for my own facetious entertainment, and unlike you, I'm not taking the least bit of any of this seriously. I never take anything on the internet as being "about me", I can assure you of that. You might consider taking the same attitude.

Edited by Arshay Duskbrow, 09 June 2013 - 02:45 AM.


#17 Mastruq

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 08:49 AM

Hinging a morals debate to random sound file is a pointless debate. Off-topic to the thread but nature is not about being cuddly. The natural world is eat or be eaten, looking cute or non-aggressive only gets you so far and then its up to your abilitiy to run faster then whatever considers you dinner.




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