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I miss the Gear Treadmill

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#1 Relentless Raven

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:08 PM

Part of the reason I started playing Guild Wars 2 is that it was much more accessible. There was no end-game gear grind, there was a unique event and non-quest questing system, but then you hit 80 and after a while everything gets repeatitive. A plateau is hit where there's no room for advancement. Perhaps that's by design but, for me anyway, it gets rather stale. There's nothing to aspire to aside from what cool weapon and armor skins you can collect. Even in the Fractals you get margainally better gear that has the main added bonuses of allowing you to progress further into that particular "dungeon". Adding ranks in WvW is a step in the right direction but by and large Guild Wars 2 has become fantasy combat themed dress-up and I've grown bored of it.

Am I wrong?

#2 Gileas898

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:11 PM

View PostRelentless Raven, on 12 June 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

Part of the reason I started playing Guild Wars 2 is that it was much more accessible. There was no end-game gear grind, there was a unique event and non-quest questing system, but then you hit 80 and after a while everything gets repeatitive. A plateau is hit where there's no room for advancement. Perhaps that's by design but, for me anyway, it gets rather stale. There's nothing to aspire to aside from what cool weapon and armor skins you can collect. Even in the Fractals you get margainally better gear that has the main added bonuses of allowing you to progress further into that particular "dungeon". Adding ranks in WvW is a step in the right direction but by and large Guild Wars 2 has become fantasy combat themed dress-up and I've grown bored of it.

Am I wrong?

The reason why cosmetic progression is not working for Arena Net is because there is none in the first place.

#3 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:18 PM

If you're bored with it, you're not wrong.  But don't expect everyone to agree with your opinion either.  I, for one, really detest games with a gear treadmill.  To be honest, even the way GW2 handles gear is pretty poorly designed in my mind, since you pretty much only get "good" gear at the points where you really don't need it any longer.  Sometimes, you get rewarded for doing something with gear that's quite a bit below what you kind of needed to get through that content in the first place.  I see no reason whatsoever, for example, that for doing map completion in the Cursed Shore (a lvl 80 zone) I should be rewarded with at most lvl 78 gear.  I see no reason why one of the best ways to get exotic gear is to re-run the same dungeon (seen by many as end game content) 10+ times, only to finally get the gear and have no real reason to have it, except to do it all over again in another dungeon.

In GW1, you could obtain max level gear pretty early on, which made the game more about skill and strategy than simply having the best gear stats.  In my opinion, GW2 gets this wrong.  What the OP is proposing sounds to me like he wishes Anet got it even more wrong than they already did.

#4 Arewn

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:24 PM

You're not wrong, but you're not right either.
It's not all that black and white of a situation, you feel like something different/you're bored of it. My suggestion? go play another game that does have a gear treadmil, you CAN do both. Try Rift, Tera, SWTOR, or w.e else, they're all f2p now.

#5 Kichwas

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:46 PM

View PostGileas898, on 12 June 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

The reason why cosmetic progression is not working for Arena Net is because there is none in the first place.

They seriously need to add more armor skins...

On vertical progression versus horizontal.
- Its two very different paradigms.

Guild Wars 1 and City of Heroes both did fine for years on horizontal progression. They did so by having a wide variety of content, good social tools, solid PvP (for GW1 not CoH), and lots of cosmetics (for CoH, not GW1 - GW1 costumes were a very late and marginal addition). They also had high replayability both with new alts and via 'going back (there was a section of CoH devoted to nothing more than replaying old missions you had already completed).

Social tools:
- the built in emote lists were vastly long. City of Heroes seemed to have hundreds, and sold even more on its cash shop. Many were funky (the dances), but varied.
City of Heroes had an in game 'special Pub' where the two factions could hang out and gather, complete with a dance floor.
Guild Wars 1 had three major cities - LA, Kamaden, and Shing Jea Monastery. All of which got equal treatment. Find the community of your taste.
- Both games proved that people would repeatedly buy new dances and emotes if the companies bothered to offer them.

Cosmetics:
Both games had the ability to customize your look. GW1's was not much more developed than GW2s. City of Heroes was insanely advanced in this department with every character having an ability to have unique armor and appearance from the start.
- Both sold plenty of addons to costumes / armors / etc for real money that let players mix it up even more.
- GW2 has so far failed to give us new armors, and keeps locking new weapons behind absurdly difficult random boxes: resulting in most players not bothering to even try. Where they could make $5 per customer just selling us the Jade Weapon skin, across 200,000 of us. They make the odds so low that only 5000 or so try, and spend maybe $10, either making the odds or giving up.

Player made content:
- It was flawed like crazy, but the mission build in City of Heroes injected some serious life into that game when it came out. Newer MMOs are now taking that concept and fixing it to be core features that will ensure endless new content at very low dev budget. A game with Neverwinter's Foundry but without their HORRIBLE camera-follows-mouse UI is amost certain to be the top MMO in a year or two.


GW2 could go a lot further if it simply starting adding to the gem store the kinds of things that would make PvE more sticky:
- armor and weapon skins not based on random chance, new emotes, new dances, new hairstyles.

Then you would start to see more stickyness.

Horizontal progression could then be enhanced with new zones, new dungeons, and new armor / weapon skins gained not from random boxes, but as loot from the new PvE content...

Living Story could meet these needs, but instead its short temporary stuff with poor storywriting and undertested game mechanics.

Looks like I didn't get around to comparing vertical progression to horizontal much...
But the key problem with vertical progression is dead zones. As players level out, and as expansions and patches move the gear tier up - everything old becomes dead. Here's a good article on that issue:
http://taugrim.com/2...e-a-coral-reef/

Edited by Kichwas, 12 June 2013 - 06:49 PM.


#6 Cake is Cake

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:11 PM

I think you are confusing "Gear Treadmill" with "something to do".  You picked the wrong game if you want the former, but this game has a serious problem with the latter.

#7 Zalroth

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:19 PM

View PostCake is Cake, on 12 June 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

I think you are confusing "Gear Treadmill" with "something to do".  You picked the wrong game if you want the former, but this game has a serious problem with the latter.

In most cases, I'd think that a gear treadmill would both provide both activities to complete and a set of goals to work towards. Why don't you think that is the case?

#8 matsif

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:29 PM

cosmetic treadmill exists in GW2, it's just not linear.  It pretty much goes from really really easy to ridiculously expensive/time consuming really fast instead of being a nice linear progression.

also the fact that there really isn't anything to do in GW2 other than spam the welfare rare events and do the same dungeons that have been around since november isn't helping the situation.  Even the "living story" crap they put out only takes like 20 minutes to do by yourself, and I'm a fairly casual gamer (don't play more than 10 hours a week).

#9 StormDragonZ

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:44 PM

View PostRelentless Raven, on 12 June 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

Guild Wars 2 has become fantasy combat themed dress-up and I've grown bored of it.

Hey, I've been saying GW2 was an overrated game of dress-up since before the first beta. People didn't listen to me then...

Also, here's a sarcastic answer: I guess some people have done everything possible in GW2. There's literally nothing left to do.

#10 Arquenya

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:32 PM

The game lacks any sense of longevity whatsoever.

Now if they had FoW armour instead of ascended unseeable trinkets .. then perhaps yes.
And then, still FoW + UW > Fractals

#11 Zeus_CM

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:49 PM

So go play WoW, or better Rift, nice mix of WoW and GW2...
Gw2 is better with horizontal progression..

#12 Arquenya

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:43 PM

View PostZeus_CM, on 12 June 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

Gw2 is better with horizontal progression..
Yes, like GW.

The question is: when are we going to get horizontal progression?
The only thing we have is ascended - which is vertical - progression. The rest is obtainable within a very short time.

#13 licho

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:07 AM

There is no need for gear grind at any form, even if you max one charr with top tier gear in theory you could still: make 7+ other characters with just different build/aproach and level up. Or go for PvP of any form, or just do old stuff (open world, hanging with guildies etc) but... it need to be funny. Having to grind just for achievment skin is good enought motivation.

But the problem is GW2 is just not fun in long run, it is still good value for the money, but at some point fun is spoiled by trival personal story which is far from RPG, repetive open world, inbalances/borked classes, narrow meta (zerks vs 1 shots), poor choice from TP (mostly gambling).

Gear trademil is the worst answear to "not much to do", even if the easiest. And holy trinity is not the only alternative to zerk all the way.
But i doubt we will see the alternatives any time soon. Still had a good time.

#14 Zeus_CM

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:08 AM

View PostArquenya, on 12 June 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

Yes, like GW.

The question is: when are we going to get horizontal progression?
The only thing we have is ascended - which is vertical - progression. The rest is obtainable within a very short time.

As you posted above I hope UW, DoA etc. make a return. It could be an opportunity to add some legendary armors. With scavenger hunt on the way, weapons are pretty much covered for horizontal progression. Also there are some nice mystic forge weapon skins that are not easy to get.
We lack armor, and currently top armor you can currently get is T3 cultural, which is obtained rather quickly. They need to bring legendary armor (ascended stats) and then add some rare mystic forge armor pieces (just like some rare mystic forge weapons)

That said, there should not be any more gear tiers after ascended.

Edited by Zeus_CM, 13 June 2013 - 10:09 AM.


#15 lalangamena

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:27 AM

I don't miss the gear treadmill,
I miss smart tactical PVE where CC and healing take the same place as DPS.
I miss content that could have been added  (like new fractals or new wings to existing dungeons...) but instead we have; questline that can be finished in under a hour, a 2D mariobox, nice instance for two weeks that everybody run cause it was fun, and then two more bad instances for two weeks that nobody run because they were horrible...  and dragon pinatas and candies and fireworks... yes, more fireworks! who need dungeons, class balance and combat depth when you have candy and dragon pinatas?

I really don't understand how they think to motivate the players to play the content? even with horizontal progression and skin treadmill, you can do it the proper way and you can do it the Anet way...

they could put a dungeon, and make the boss 5% drop a jade weapon skin in the chest, but instead they sell lottery tickets that alienate the major part of their player-base...

it seems like Anet devs think that THIS GAME NEED MORE COWBELL!!!  

/rant off

#16 Relentless Raven

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 01:26 PM

View PostCake is Cake, on 12 June 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

I think you are confusing "Gear Treadmill" with "something to do".  You picked the wrong game if you want the former, but this game has a serious problem with the latter.

I was a long-time WoW player from Vanilla to whatever the second expansion was so the Gear Grind was all I knew until GW2. It was refreshing and still could be if, like you said, we had more to do. But we don't. I know the Treadmill isn't the answer but it's the only one I've got and unless things change I'm going to go play F2P Aion, Tera, or Rift until Wildstar or ESO comes out.

#17 Phadde

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 02:04 PM

View PostRelentless Raven, on 12 June 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

Part of the reason I started playing Guild Wars 2 is that it was much more accessible. There was no end-game gear grind, there was a unique event and non-quest questing system, but then you hit 80 and after a while everything gets repeatitive. A plateau is hit where there's no room for advancement. Perhaps that's by design but, for me anyway, it gets rather stale. There's nothing to aspire to aside from what cool weapon and armor skins you can collect. Even in the Fractals you get margainally better gear that has the main added bonuses of allowing you to progress further into that particular "dungeon". Adding ranks in WvW is a step in the right direction but by and large Guild Wars 2 has become fantasy combat themed dress-up and I've grown bored of it.

Am I wrong?

I despise the Gear Treadmill. I think it's dumb, stale and boring.

I love the cosmetic-philosophy that they have in this game.

"... in the Fractals you get margainally better gear..."
I don't get you. Why is it better to play for a higher number on your attributes? What's the deal about having an advantage over others because you decided to do a boring grind? Speaking of which, I was hoping that the "Downscaling mechanic" made high-leveled players somewhat weaker, so that new players had an easier time while providing a good challenge for everyone.

"no room for advancement... ... nothing to aspire to aside from what cool weapon and armor skins you can collect"
This is the end game. I think this is what many GW2 players loves about the game.

Why does a higher number on the stats of an item makes you happier than replacing a logging-axe with a huge Arah-themed double-bladed axe, decorated with teeth and with a creeping blue fog that slowly covers the weapon when wielded? No matter how many wipes in pug-groups it takes, I want that axe. And then the mace. And I'm actually enjoying every second it takes to acquire them, because they look awesome on my Warrior.

Edited by Phadde, 13 June 2013 - 02:07 PM.


#18 Relentless Raven

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 02:46 PM

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I truly am glad that people still enjoy this game. It has a lot of great ideas. I'm just truly sad that I don't count myself among them anymore. C'est la vie.

#19 Firstborn12

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 03:07 PM

I would much rather have skill progression than a gear treadmill, from level one you have the same weapon skills all the way up to level 80. why not add more weapon skills, use a weapon, you gain  weapon xp, the more Weapon Xp the more skills you can unlock for that weapon, allowing you to change the skills you have on the Weapon Bar.

Or

improve the Trait system, allowing to you to use a purchase more traits for the Adapt, Major, Grandmaster lines. you start with the basic 12. and unlock more with skill points.

Or

Improve the Profession Specific ability, either by the above mention ways (XP gain or trait) or thru Trainers. Gain enough regular Xp, you can unlock more skills for your Profession Specific ability.

there are many ways to improve your character without the need of Gear Treadmill.

#20 Juanele

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:11 PM

Well to each their own. I, for one, certainly don't miss a gear treadmill. And there are literally 100s of other games that have a gear treadmill style of progression.

Take a break from the game, play something else and then return after a while, or don't return.

#21 Tranquility

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:38 PM

View PostGileas898, on 12 June 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

The reason why cosmetic progression is not working for Arena Net is because there is none in the first place.

Well, that, and the fact that the game isn't really that fun in and of itself.

#22 Millimidget

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:55 AM

I'm surprised there weren't any interesting sub-80 skins to pursue. Actually, I'm really surprised by the ARPG-style loot system, when they had perfectly viable delivery mechanisms in heart vendors, dungeon bosses and other unique mobs to offer a multitude of interesting skins. Overall, I don't recall there being all that many skins for my warrior; one per dungeon, three which were reused constantly sub-80, the one skin distributed across the temple vendors, and a fugly WvW set that was impractical to even pursue at the time.

Surely I must have been missing something.

#23 Dasviidonja

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 11:33 PM

I agree I miss the gear grind as well and they should change it to one. :{P

#24 Trei

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:55 AM

View PostRelentless Raven, on 12 June 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

-snip-

Am I wrong?
Nah... just crazy.

#25 Graka

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:58 AM

I'd rather eat the DVD my game came on that be submitted to a gear grind again, this is one of the main reasons I left WoW, if you want a gear grind there are many other games for you to go play. I understand that there are some aspects people don't like about GW2 but honestly let not trying to fundamentally change the game just to suit some archaic method of extending game life because your bored.

#26 Tranquility

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:46 AM

View PostRelentless Raven, on 12 June 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

A plateau is hit where there's no room for advancement. Perhaps that's by design but, for me anyway, it gets rather stale.

Guild Wars, the game this game is loosely based on, sidestepped that problem by having somewhere close to an infinite number of builds to try, with a combat system that emphasized tactics over zerging everything down as fast as possible. Oh, and elite skills having to be capped from mobs in various areas across the game...I spent a lot of time capping and/or helping guildies cap skills.

#27 XRay

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:36 AM

There should be more armor skins pre-80 and on 80 imo. but the endgame gear grind is one of the reasons I quit other mmos, as I was hating myself for actually being a part of the endless gear grind process, and as most of the time I spent doing so I was more annoyed and bored and pissed than actually having fun or being satisfied while playing, which also resulted in not really feeling any accomplishment after getting the said gear/armor part/something.

#28 Doug4130

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 06:47 PM

View PostTranquility, on 15 June 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Guild Wars, the game this game is loosely based on, sidestepped that problem by having somewhere close to an infinite number of builds to try, with a combat system that emphasized tactics over zerging everything down as fast as possible. Oh, and elite skills having to be capped from mobs in various areas across the game...I spent a lot of time capping and/or helping guildies cap skills.

How many builds were viable when GW1 was released?  Not that many at all.  Yes, gw2 was released years later but regardless, any game needs time to evolve.  There is no way to see how all the pieces fit from the beginning.

Not saying this game is perfect but it is hardly a disaster, they've accomplished a lot since it was released and the game has a pretty strong foundation.

If you run out of things to do then you have a few options.  You can help guildies (there are constantly players looking for help with story modes, fotm, etc), slow down your pace, quit playing or take a break for a few months.  All are equally viable and not a result of poor development.  It sounds redundant to type this, but every product in the world is a specific product and the producer can't *make* you enjoy it.  It is neither their fault or obligation.  If you can't change something, recognize that instead of spending so much negative energy on it and find something you do enjoy.

On topic, the main reason that a gear grind turns me off is that for people who like using multiple builds they would have to grind for multiple sets of gear.  This was ok in other games like wow where only a couple classes needed 3 sets max; most requiring only 1 or 2 but in this game on my ranger alone I have 5 for pve and 2 for wvw.  The thought of grinding out all those sets whenever new tiers were released.. well I wouldn't do it, I would stop playing.

Edited by Doug4130, 15 June 2013 - 06:50 PM.


#29 Tranquility

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 07:33 PM

View PostDoug4130, on 15 June 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

How many builds were viable when GW1 was released?

A lot.

Hell, warriors were running around with Mending. That pretty much proves that the limits for builds were near endless.

#30 Butcher

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:05 PM

You miss the gear treadmill? Here are your options in GW2:

1. Dedicate over 100 hours of grinding CoF P1 or Orr for gold.
2. Spend well over 150 USD on gems and buy your gear.

Either way, you're a loser for doing it. This game was meant to be played casually, and the only unfortunate players are the hardcore ones who're stupid enough to grind this terribly balanced game for virtual vanity.




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