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what if... dungeons trash mobs were not skippable?

dungeon instance trash mob

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#1 Mahaedros

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 03:17 AM

What would happen if you simply could not run past trash mobs in dungeons?  Once they saw/aggro on you, they had to be killed or they'd pursue you until they killed you?

Good, bad or no difference other than making CoF1 take a few extra minutes...?

I'm glad some people like running dungeons in GW2.  Some people(like me) would like to run dungeons but not as they are currently implemented.

This is not an anti-speed run post, because I enjoy speed runs and maxing efficiency etc.   What I don't like is being expected (usually required by other players- to be honest...) to do specific things- skipping trash mobs or exploiting boss fights.

I think the experience of GW2's dungeons could be improved quite a bit and would enjoy hearing any and all suggestions.

Currently, skipping most dungeons to run only CoF1 and then skipping as much of CoF1 as possible to get as much CPS(coin-per-second) doesn't seem very interesting and challenging.   Perhaps that is just my view and others don't feel the same.

#2 Just Horus

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 03:44 AM

Not skipping them wouldn't make dungeons any more interesting or challenging. The majority of dungeon mobs are just damage sponges with uninteresting mechanics.

#3 Fernling306

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:29 AM

View PostJust Horus, on 18 June 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

Not skipping them wouldn't make dungeons any more interesting or challenging. The majority of dungeon mobs are just damage sponges with uninteresting mechanics.

Literally the perfect answer. :)

#4 Knuckle Joe

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 06:38 AM

View PostJust Horus, on 18 June 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

Not skipping them wouldn't make dungeons any more interesting or challenging. The majority of dungeon mobs are just damage sponges with uninteresting mechanics.

Nobody thought that at the beginning of the game, it was something new and the experience of learning the attacks, dodging at the right time and using the best tactics possible to find a way to kill the champions was a major part of making a dungeon fun.

The problem is routine. When you do the same thing over and over again, you memorize the game and things start getting boring.

The solution (in my opinion):
Redo the attack patterns/mechanics, etc. of dungeon bosses every once in a while... every 2-3 month patches perhaps? I'd say that would keep dungeons interesting. Dunno if that would be lots of work for the devs or if it would unleash wave after wave of bugged content but meh.

Edited by Knuckle Joe, 18 June 2013 - 10:50 PM.


#5 leongrado

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:00 AM

I think what would happen is people would make a huge ball with all the aggro and then nuke the crap out of them and then pick up loot.

#6 The_Blades

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:08 AM

mobs and the world in general are not the problem  in gw2.

imo the problem is the combat itself. spamm spamm spamm untill your fingers hurt, you dont play with the rest of the guys around you, you play alongside them, its a single player zerg mode game. It looked promissing on the beggining, but it got boring and failed. unless they manage an overhaul gw2 will dry out and die sooner than it should.

Anet's luck is that there is no real rival in the market at the moment.

#7 Desild

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:09 AM

Not that I skip anything unless my group forces me. The dungeons are unrewarding enough for me to miss out on potential loot. Be it blue or green items.

Except that Wolf Chapion in CoE. He can go suck on a lemon.

#8 Sheepski

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:55 AM

They would have to make it rewarding. The graveling champion trash is AC is a decent example of this. When people were farming AC most groups would skip past them, but it worked out more efficient to kill them. Sure it takes a couple of minutes longer to complete the run, but you're making 7s extra per pack (usually 3 packs) so an extra 20s or so per run. For the gold per min/hour it's more efficient.

In that dungeon, people had a choice. Whether to speed through it for minimal gold and get tokens asap, or to kill the champs and get better rewards.

Forcing people to kill mobs will only work if there are good rewards to doing so. Look at the Molten Facility a couple of months ago. That was an awesome dungeon, lots of fun, different/interesting mechanics. They forced you to kill trash. However, because of that, the length of the dungeon was far too long. The rewards were lower than a normal dungeon path, but even if they were the same (tokens etc) then the path would still be too long to farm, due to the forced nature of killing trash. "Trash" as a name indicates that it's useless. However if those mobs added extra gold/tokens etc, other than bog standard loot, then maybe people wouldn't mind killing them.

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#9 Bright Star Shine

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:25 AM

What would happen?

The current speed runners would still clear dungeons faster than PUGs.

PUGs would take even longer to complete their dungeons.

Some people would flat out refuse to do certain dungeon paths (Arah p4) and some people would resort to finding glitches to skip past them.

#10 madmaxII

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 11:09 AM

View PostDesild, on 18 June 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Not that I skip anything unless my group forces me. The dungeons are unrewarding enough for me to miss out on potential loot. Be it blue or green items.

But isn't that exactly the reason why you skip? Loot is so unrewarding that there is no point in killing mobs. The only thing you care about are the chests and the bonus 26s + tokens when you have finished the dungeon. And the faster you reach the end the better is your reward/time ratio.

Edited by madmaxII, 18 June 2013 - 11:10 AM.


#11 Noob On Steroid

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:26 PM

As sheepski and MadmaxII pointed out, rushing past trash mobs will only stop if they're no longer trash. Spending 5 to 10 minutes extra on a 15 minute dungeon run for some extra blues and greens is hardly worth the effort. Only the boss loot and the end reward is an incentive at the moment, hence people tend to only do those parts and skip the rest.

Making them chase you forever would be counterproductive: you could just gather up all the mobs, and nuke them just before each bossfight.

#12 Desild

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:51 PM

View PostmadmaxII, on 18 June 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

But isn't that exactly the reason why you skip? Loot is so unrewarding that there is no point in killing mobs. The only thing you care about are the chests and the bonus 26s + tokens when you have finished the dungeon. And the faster you reach the end the better is your reward/time ratio.

Insane troll logic isn't my strongest feature. I'm sorry really, but the logic part always gets me down.

My colleagues, unlike the general populace, are fervidly against gimmicks and speed runs. If it were up to me, I'd rarely do dungeons at all, yet they manage to persuade me to take me along under the pretence that I'm better than "randoms". I'm inclined to think they just take me along for my abrasive charisma, so go figure.

Obviously dungeons are unrewarding. Well duh really, I've been saying that for months. Half bosses are glorified health bars.

At least I can keep a façade of being a "real man" for not skipping mobs. Even if developers do it.

Edited by Desild, 18 June 2013 - 12:52 PM.


#13 madmaxII

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:18 PM

View PostDesild, on 18 June 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Insane troll logic isn't my strongest feature. I'm sorry really, but the logic part always gets me down.

My colleagues, unlike the general populace, are fervidly against gimmicks and speed runs. If it were up to me, I'd rarely do dungeons at all, yet they manage to persuade me to take me along under the pretence that I'm better than "randoms". I'm inclined to think they just take me along for my abrasive charisma, so go figure.

Obviously dungeons are unrewarding. Well duh really, I've been saying that for months. Half bosses are glorified health bars.

At least I can keep a façade of being a "real man" for not skipping mobs. Even if developers do it.

Not sure why my comment was "troll logic". It is fairly obvious that most of the mobs in a dungeon are not worth your time.

On top of that, dungeons aren't unrewarding. In fact, if you can complete them fast enough, they yield the highest profits in the game (excluding the TP, of course). And that's pretty much the problem: It is all about clear speed. Would be great if there was a little more than running the very same paths over and over again as fast as you can but at the moment that's all we have.

#14 Desild

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:28 PM

View PostmadmaxII, on 18 June 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Not sure why my comment was "troll logic". It is fairly obvious that most of the mobs in a dungeon are not worth your time.

Dude, dude. Chillax! I was talking about me and my comment. It was self-deprecation at its finest.

We cool right?

Edited by Desild, 18 June 2013 - 01:29 PM.


#15 asbasb

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:03 PM

View PostBright Star Shine, on 18 June 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

The current speed runners would still clear dungeons faster than PUGs.
PUGs would take even longer to complete their dungeons.
Some people would flat out refuse to do certain dungeon paths (Arah p4) and some people would resort to finding glitches to skip past them.

http://wiki.guildwar...lrending_Shriek and http://wiki.guildwar...wiki/Bone_Spike can attest to that.

Edited by asbasb, 18 June 2013 - 02:04 PM.


#16 Arquenya

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 05:18 PM

View PostKnuckle Joe, on 18 June 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

The solution (in my opinion):
Redo the attack patterns/mechanics, etc. of dungeon bosses every once in a while... every 2-3 month patches perhaps? I'd say that would keep dungeons interesting. Dunno if that would be lots of work for the devs or if it would unleash wave after wave of bugged content but meh.
I always thought randomizing mobs would be a good idea to keep things fresh. A bif more unpredictability than the same static content.

Another things is loot. In GW, you had FoW and UW and good drops could come from anything, not just from defeating the "end boss". So it stayed more interesting and rewarding to do whatever part of the dungeon or kill any mob. I think that was a far more elegant idea of dungeon design.

Edited by Arquenya, 18 June 2013 - 05:21 PM.


#17 beadnbutter32

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:09 PM

Any challenge that can be skipped, is either wasted dev time, or poor design.  There are ways to make dungeon mobs a requirement, that does not involve removing spawn point leashes like we have now.  Some are currently used in places.  Sometimes all mobs in an area must be eliminated before some block preventing progress is removed is just one example.

There are ways to do it, but it takes time and resources to design and implement.  

In the case of existing dungeons,  re-working can be more involved.  If you increase the difficulty, how do you avoid increasing the overall length of time to complete the experience so that it is still short enough for the mostly casual player base?

Given that in addition to the usual crappy dungeon design crutches like mile wide boss health bars, and gimmick solutions, RNDnet added a few new ones like Defiant and Unshakeable, as a substitute for well designed battle/encounter chains.

When RNDnet starts making noises about improving their dungeons, I am more than a bit skeptical and maintain a 'wait and see' stance.

#18 Snapalope

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:23 PM

A lot of the stuff are just not worth fighting.... For example the wolf in CoE; he drops nothing and takes forever to kill.  When you have stuff like that of course people will opt to skil them.

Edited by Snapalope, 18 June 2013 - 09:25 PM.


#19 matsif

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 12:05 AM

make them drop something worthwhile other than a measly 50 coppers and maybe a blue and we could have a discussion on whether it's better to kill everything.  until the rewards system is actually rewarding there is no reason to kill anything in dungeons except stuff that you have no other choice to kill.

#20 Craywulf

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 12:44 AM

Trash mobs need to require non-DPS tactics, and should be highly aggro sensitive. In other words you would need to dispense these DPS-invulnerable mobs using control-oriented skills like knockbacks, knockdowns and stuns. Once they suffer from a control skill, they flee or die.

As for drops, I would have them drop a dungeon key, to unlock the next phase.

Edited by Craywulf, 19 June 2013 - 12:47 AM.


#21 Kichwas

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 05:20 PM

It improved WoW when they changed it so trash mobs could not be outrun. Some were still skippable by staying outside of aggro range, but once the dog had you in its sights, it'd chase that mailtruck to the end of the instance.

I think it would improve the dungeons in GW2 as well. But it also needs to come with a fix to exploit spots. A simple fix to that would be no ability to deal damage in any spot where the enemy cannot hit back with the attacks it is designed to attack with. If an enemy cannot target you, you are always obstructed trying to target it. If it can target you but the combat engine always comes back with a 0, then your attacks also always come back with a 0.
- Out in the open world we already see a partial version of this. MOST of the time when an enemy cannot target or hurt you, it heals to full and drops out of combat becomming immune to you when you try to hit it.
- Most of the time this will happen in dungeons as well. They need to figure out why that is not occuring all of the time.

Other than that - other things some call exploits, like stacking, are just strats. You should not be able to stand in the same exact spot as an anemy mob, but stacking right next to it is fine (though I would prefer we also not be able to stand in the same spot as a friendly PC or NPC - this starts ramping up the collision detection math and could create noticeable lag).

Also, places where there are barrers in the map that certain classes can jump over - patch that out. IF not, then cause it to aggro everything between point A start of jump, and point B other side of the wall - like what happens (or used to happen?) in WoW when you do that and your hunter pets runs the whole path of the skipped dungeon aggroing it all.

#22 Kichwas

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 05:31 PM

View PostArquenya, on 18 June 2013 - 05:18 PM, said:

I always thought randomizing mobs would be a good idea to keep things fresh. A bif more unpredictability than the same static content.

Another things is loot. In GW, you had FoW and UW and good drops could come from anything, not just from defeating the "end boss". So it stayed more interesting and rewarding to do whatever part of the dungeon or kill any mob. I think that was a far more elegant idea of dungeon design.

The simple fix: take tokens that drop from the final boss: 60 of them... subtract 1 for every creature still 'alive' in the instance's path.
Subtract 20 for every boss still alive.

- Full clears get real important. To keep this from just being a punitive change, also do the below:

Remove the XP and gold of the final loot chest: put it back as an amount divided up between the mobs in the dungeon. Remove the contents of the existing boss loot chests. Replace them all with 1 yellow item of a level between the dungeon level and the player level, but no less than 10 levels lower than the player level (so that an 80 would never get an item below 70, meaning it would still be of good value).
- This would both up the loot a lot in dungeons, and make every boss foolish to skip, but probably not up the loot enough to disrupt the 'game economy' due to removing the other items (coin and assorted greens).

#23 kendro1200

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:03 PM

View PostKnuckle Joe, on 18 June 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

Nobody thought that at the beginning of the game, it was something new and the experience of learning the attacks, dodging at the right time and using the best tactics possible to find a way to kill the champions was a major part of making a dungeon fun.

The problem is routine. When you do the same thing over and over again, you memorize the game and things start getting boring.

The solution (in my opinion):
Redo the attack patterns/mechanics, etc. of dungeon bosses every once in a while... every 2-3 month patches perhaps? I'd say that would keep dungeons interesting. Dunno if that would be lots of work for the devs or if it would unleash wave after wave of bugged content but meh.

Don't "redo them"  just redo the AI so they actually vary a bit.  Everything in the game would benefit a lot from better AI in the game, rather than the current priority list with cooldowns that bosses and mobs currently use.

#24 ylistra

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:19 PM

The dungeons would be more interesting if the "skip" mechanic was built into the dungeon design with specific cost/benefit, and that specific skill sets were required to enable a skip.  Basically build on the concept to make the dungeons less linear, and encourage the use of other techniques besides stacking damage upon damage.

Example Encounters:
=================
Consider a dungeon scenario where a room was filled with inactive golems.  If you enter the room, you trigger an alarm locking a door at the far end and the golems become hostile.  Your choices:
  • From the doorway, destroy the alarm detection devices from range.  You would need either an Engineer or a Ranger  in party to do this to meet the range requirement.
  • Attempt to stealth through the room, block the door open at the far end, and portal the remainder of the party through.  A Mesmer / Thief requirement.
  • Brute force destroy the golems.
=================
A large room contains several Nightmare pods.  These objects are immune to direct damage, but may be burnt/bleed/poisoned.  A Nightmare Gardener spawns and attempts to create water fields which heal any damaged pods, and the gardener respawns instantly if killed.  For every 30 seconds of the encounter a new wave of Nightmare Court attack the party, proportional to the number of Nightmare pods that are still up.
  • A direct damage party could theoretically kill multiple waves of Nightmare Court until an event timer expires and the event completes.
  • A party with high condition damage and some crowd control could interrupt the gardener and destroy the pods skipping multiple waves of attackers.  Perhaps stack fire and bleed on one target and then use a necro with epidemic to end the encounter quickly.


#25 Mhenlo

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:31 PM

View PostCraywulf, on 19 June 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

Trash mobs need to require non-DPS tactics, and should be highly aggro sensitive. In other words you would need to dispense these DPS-invulnerable mobs using control-oriented skills like knockbacks, knockdowns and stuns. Once they suffer from a control skill, they flee or die.

As for drops, I would have them drop a dungeon key, to unlock the next phase.

No offense, but would that actually solve? I doubt people would be happy about having to kill trash mobs just to get to the next phase of the dungeon. There is a reason people skip trash mobs. Making it so people can't skip them still makes it boring as hell. I have a feeling that would deter a lot of people from doing dungeons. Or, at least the people who are still left that do dungeons...

#26 Mhenlo

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 08:34 PM

View Postylistra, on 19 June 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

snip

Unfortunately, while these are great ideas, it goes against the reason ANet made the classes fairly homogeneous: they wanted to get rid of people needing/requiring certain classes in group instances.

I love the ideas, but I doubt ANet would do something as interesting as that because it would make people complain about needing specific classes in their parties. I mean, that's why they got rid of the monk, right?

#27 Tevesh

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 10:45 PM

View PostJust Horus, on 18 June 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

Not skipping them wouldn't make dungeons any more interesting or challenging. The majority of dungeon mobs are just damage sponges with uninteresting mechanics.

Not to mention that unlike some games like eq2, wow or rift burning through ridiculously large health pools with a boring and unimaginative 5-skill (more like 1-skill) rotation that does not interact with the group in any meaningful way is plain boring. It was a pleasure to just dps stuff down in eq2, because the rotations, group interactions and overall combat gameplay were smooth, interesting and enjoyable. Gw2's combat feels forced, reflex-based and unwitty, so I'd rather play some win solitaire than mash the same buttons over and over in the face of some ridiculously fat trash mob.

Edited by Tevesh, 19 June 2013 - 10:45 PM.


#28 matsif

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 10:51 PM

View Postylistra, on 19 June 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

The dungeons would be more interesting if the "skip" mechanic was built into the dungeon design with specific cost/benefit, and that specific skill sets were required to enable a skip.  Basically build on the concept to make the dungeons less linear, and encourage the use of other techniques besides stacking damage upon damage.

cool ideas, but there's the problem of Anet's horrible drop rate that makes it entirely not worthwhile to ever attempt the killing of said golems in example 1 or waiting out the event timer in example 2.  

Make dungeons drop better items.  guarantee a rare in each chest, with high chances of exotics at the end chests (an actual high chance, not .00001 instead of .0000000001).  Give lodestones out for amounts of tokens.  Make t6 mats drop more frequently in dungeons than in open world, and equalize rewards across dungeons to always be player level quality instead of ever having the chance of getting a level 45 bag or something in CM as a level 80.  And redo some mechanics to make things interesting yet fun instead of KD and stun fests like AC became.

#29 draxynnic

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:17 AM

View PostKichwas, on 19 June 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

I think it would improve the dungeons in GW2 as well. But it also needs to come with a fix to exploit spots. A simple fix to that would be no ability to deal damage in any spot where the enemy cannot hit back with the attacks it is designed to attack with. If an enemy cannot target you, you are always obstructed trying to target it. If it can target you but the combat engine always comes back with a 0, then your attacks also always come back with a 0.
- Out in the open world we already see a partial version of this. MOST of the time when an enemy cannot target or hurt you, it heals to full and drops out of combat becomming immune to you when you try to hit it.
- Most of the time this will happen in dungeons as well. They need to figure out why that is not occuring all of the time.
Personally, I hate bandaid 'they can't hurt you so you can't hurt them' mechanics, especially when added to the unfairness that the reverse is never true. I can understand why they're in the open world (although I can't say I like it), but in dungeons... if it's not intended, the dungeon should be designed so that it isn't possible. Either give the enemy a ranged attack, don't create environments where you can rain fire on melee enemies from a safe location, or make it an actual feature of the dungeon that you can do this.

Edited by draxynnic, 20 June 2013 - 02:17 AM.

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#30 Bright Star Shine

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:12 PM

View PostKichwas, on 19 June 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

The simple fix: take tokens that drop from the final boss: 60 of them... subtract 1 for every creature still 'alive' in the instance's path.
Subtract 20 for every boss still alive.

- Full clears get real important. To keep this from just being a punitive change, also do the below:

Remove the XP and gold of the final loot chest: put it back as an amount divided up between the mobs in the dungeon. Remove the contents of the existing boss loot chests. Replace them all with 1 yellow item of a level between the dungeon level and the player level, but no less than 10 levels lower than the player level (so that an 80 would never get an item below 70, meaning it would still be of good value).
- This would both up the loot a lot in dungeons, and make every boss foolish to skip, but probably not up the loot enough to disrupt the 'game economy' due to removing the other items (coin and assorted greens).

Lemme sum up your post for you:

"I don't like Speedrunners, they're mean elitists that don't take me on their runs, Anet, please nerf speedruns!"




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