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The End of Currency Creep?


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#1 Fantasy Trope

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 03:16 PM

In a thread about rewards in Orr, Colin Johanson made an interesting comment about reward currency:

"And no, we’re not putting in a new currency, we have plenty of thosePosted Image"

https://forum-en.gui...rst#post2233683

Also, if you want to read it, here's the first post he made in that thread (more detailed on rewards and difficulty more generally):

https://forum-en.gui...rst#post2233565

I think this is a good development.  Your opinions?

#2 draxynnic

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 03:23 PM

It's a good start - it really is a bit silly. Frankly, I'd like to see them become convertible to some degree so they can actually all be part of the greater economy rather than each being their own little microcosm of it.
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#3 Desild

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 03:29 PM

Learned to my own displeasure to only take attention to actions and not listen to a single word uttered by crocodile jaw developers.

And right now their actions are speaking louder than words.

Edited by Desild, 18 June 2013 - 03:31 PM.


#4 matsif

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:15 PM

so they are going to force more 1 hit champs into temple/farmed events even more than they already have and make the champs guarantee drop a green instead of a blue?

make a way for me to transfer all my useless karma directly into a known amount of gold (a direct currency exchange) instead of RNG boxes and I'd be happy.

Edited by matsif, 18 June 2013 - 09:17 PM.


#5 Red Intensity

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 11:40 PM

Bullcrap, plain and simple. Johanosn is almost obviously saying what the players wanna hear, and I refuse to believe a word of it until I see his and others' actions match their words, because the two are worlds apart.

I've given up hope for anything unrelated to the casino.

#6 Leyana

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 12:01 AM

I really wish they'd reverse the currency creep. Have all of one type of content share one currency. Open world PvE on Karma (toss laurels and let it be a 5000:1 conversion or something). Instanced PvE on some sort of Tokens that are shared, no spamming only AC for AC gear. Fractals... maybe merged with dungeons on the same token system.

#7 Craywulf

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 12:39 AM

I agree Leyanna, The implementation of Laurels, Glory, Influence, and tokens all complicated matters. It should have been all under Karma at various ratios per venue.

#8 Arewn

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 01:28 AM

I really don't mind the currencies for each dungeon, I actually really like the way I can pick which gear I want rather then wait on more RNG for random drops. What does bug me about the many currencies is that they take up so much space, they should be built into the UI similarly to how gold, karma and laurels are, perhaps making a currency tab in the hero panel for them.

#9 draxynnic

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 02:12 AM

View PostCraywulf, on 19 June 2013 - 12:39 AM, said:

I agree Leyanna, The implementation of Laurels, Glory, Influence, and tokens all complicated matters. It should have been all under Karma at various ratios per venue.
I think the different dungeon tokens do have their place - it makes sense that a Shard of Zhaitan should be more valuable than a charr carving mass-produced from CoFp1 farming, for instance. However, it should be possible to interconvert them - mediated by a floating exchange rate with gold or between each other - so that you have options for getting stuff from that dungeon that don't involve repeating that dungeon potentially dozens of times.

Edited by draxynnic, 19 June 2013 - 02:12 AM.

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#10 Leyana

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 02:15 AM

Having a separate currency for each dungeon is pretty much admitting that your content design is subpar and you need a mechanic to force people into certain dungeons because those wouldn't have been played otherwise.

Having a single currency shared across all the dungeons lets developers balance which dungeons people are running easier by lowering the reward on less annoying dungeons and increasing the reward on more challenging/annoying dungeons. That way now people can choose to mindlessly spam easier dungeons or to risk it all for one big payday.

It might also encourage them to actually make the dungeons more interesting to entice people in.

Plus, it might open the way for 'Dungeon showcase' events where they can up the reward for a certain dungeon to get people playing. With a single shared currency, people will want to play even if they don't care for the rewards tied to the dungeon cause they can take the currency and go use it in another dungeon where they do care about the rewards.

#11 Craywulf

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 02:35 AM

View Postdraxynnic, on 19 June 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

I think the different dungeon tokens do have their place - it makes sense that a Shard of Zhaitan should be more valuable than a charr carving mass-produced from CoFp1 farming, for instance. However, it should be possible to interconvert them - mediated by a floating exchange rate with gold or between each other - so that you have options for getting stuff from that dungeon that don't involve repeating that dungeon potentially dozens of times.
Various dungeon armors can have fluctuating Karma prices. It's just matter of the basis of which their value is set.

Edited by Craywulf, 19 June 2013 - 02:37 AM.


#12 draxynnic

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 04:15 AM

View PostLeyana, on 19 June 2013 - 02:15 AM, said:

Having a separate currency for each dungeon is pretty much admitting that your content design is subpar and you need a mechanic to force people into certain dungeons because those wouldn't have been played otherwise.

Having a single currency shared across all the dungeons lets developers balance which dungeons people are running easier by lowering the reward on less annoying dungeons and increasing the reward on more challenging/annoying dungeons. That way now people can choose to mindlessly spam easier dungeons or to risk it all for one big payday.
Not really. Having a single currency means that it's up to the devs to judge which dungeons are the easiest and hardest, and as we well know, the devs often get it wrong. Chances are, the devs thought CoF would be one of the harder dungeons, so if there was a single dungeon currency it'd probably be one of the higher payoffs - and that would produce even more incentive then there already is to speedrun CoF.

Multiple currencies with floating exchange rates (whether directly or through a medium such as gold or karma), however, lets the relative values be decided according to supply and demand. Thus, one dungeon being farmed to death would naturally make other dungeons, and their associated tokens, more valuable in comparison.

Now, the current system with no possibility of exchange at all is definitely seriously flawed - it forces people to grind a dungeon that they want something from, while making tokens for a dungeon with items they don't want valuable only for the salvage value of rares. But I think multiple tokens that can be traded would be a more robust system than just having a single token type.
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#13 Azure Skye

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 04:35 AM

View PostDesild, on 18 June 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Learned to my own displeasure to only take attention to actions and not listen to a single word uttered by crocodile jaw developers.

And right now their actions are speaking louder than words.
Umm, you should of done that in beginning, it shouldn't be taken at face value after a couple displeasure-able updates and changes. Talk is cheap, i know that and you do too.

#14 Daesu

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 05:05 AM

The lack of challenges is not a problem in this game.  But the lack of commensurable rewards is a problem.

I don't know how long they would need to realize that.

Edited by Daesu, 19 June 2013 - 05:08 AM.


#15 NerfHerder

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:44 AM

To be honest, I dont care how many types of currency they have. Just give me a place to hold them. A tab to keep all those random deadly blooms and charr carvings. And not just 250, it should be enough to hold one sets worth of dungeon tokens. Although that might cut into thier bank slot sales.

I'm sitting on a almost a stack of liquid karma. Hopefully one day I can turn that in for something useful, like laurels. Or we could get merchant like in WvW that sells exotic armor of all types for karma instead of badges.

#16 Desild

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 10:02 AM

View PostAzure Skye, on 19 June 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

Umm, you should of done that in beginning, it shouldn't be taken at face value after a couple displeasure-able updates and changes. Talk is cheap, i know that and you do too.

Hey! Let's not get over our heads here shall we?

I'm not a crocodile. Or a developer. But mostly not a crocodile. So what I say still has some face value.

Right? Right?!

Ahem... I imagine it will be really awkward if they release another dungeon with another set of tokens. Unless... They aren't planning on releasing new dungeons anytime soon.

#17 MazingerZ

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 04:48 PM

View PostDesild, on 19 June 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Hey! Let's not get over our heads here shall we?

I'm not a crocodile. Or a developer. But mostly not a crocodile. So what I say still has some face value.

Right? Right?!

Ahem... I imagine it will be really awkward if they release another dungeon with another set of tokens. Unless... They aren't planning on releasing new dungeons anytime soon.

This.  If everyone was suspicious of everything said, then there'd be no point in building trust in a brand, or branding in general.

The issue is that the new ArenaNet is supporting GW2 is not the same ArenaNet that built brand trust in GW1.  However, a majority of their initial success at launch was building trust in the company from GW1.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#18 Tevesh

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 10:36 PM

Quote

Not really. Having a single currency means that it's up to the devs to judge which dungeons are the easiest and hardest, and as we well know, the devs often get it wrong. Chances are, the devs thought CoF would be one of the harder dungeons, so if there was a single dungeon currency it'd probably be one of the higher payoffs - and that would produce even more incentive then there already is to speedrun CoF.

While there certainly are issues with the abundance of cof speed run groups, separating currencies just to counter it is the worst possible solution. In fact, it does not resolve anything and while it does limit your profits from fast running cof as you lose access to the items from other dungeons, the problem is not speed farming, the problem is the abysmally low quality of dungeon content in game. They should fix that before they do any reward tweaking, but even then, they should first ensure an adequate reward to effort ratio. As it stands now, almost everything on the AH is costed 5-30 times cheaper than the actual effort in getting those items is because of the abundant bots farming every single aspect of the game. Unless the rewards are scaled up to make it worth for the actual PLAYERS to PLAY through that content to get them, the game is going nowhere fast.

Quote

Multiple currencies with floating exchange rates (whether directly or through a medium such as gold or karma), however, lets the relative values be decided according to supply and demand. Thus, one dungeon being farmed to death would naturally make other dungeons, and their associated tokens, more valuable in comparison.

This comment missed the point by a long shot. Or hit it, if you are an anet employee, of course. Adding floating exchange rates devalues any player-run farming outlets - and I do wish I could refer to it as 'content', but realistically it's no content but lottery-fueled farm fest - and does that repeatedly over the rest of the game's lifetime. Does that help the players out in any way? No, because the whatever already dominated by bots areas are (which is pretty much the whole of the game save for dungeons/fractals), they will never have a reasonable exchange rate, and whatever the players are left with will quickly devalue as well. This is pretty much equal to having all of your rewards in all areas divided by 10 just because anet can.

Quote

ut I think multiple tokens that can be traded would be a more robust system than just having a single token type.

It's quite robust indeed - it forces people to grind 800% or so more just fine. However, the problem lies in bad content that is not appealing to PLAY through - just to grind in order to get some visual upgrades, which are mostly quite mediocre to boot. The fact that the dungeons already require you to have full exotics to complete, but at the same time they charge you additional time for having exotic stats on the items is totally ludicrous.

#19 draxynnic

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:33 AM

Um...

Wow.

I think you've completely failed to understand how my proposed system would work.

Nothing in my suggestion actually makes it so that any dungeon run has weaker rewards. At the moment, once you've got anything else you want from a particular dungeon, the only purpose for tokens is to trade them in for whatever will give the biggest payoff - usually, as I understand it, trading for rares and then salvaging them, although YMMV. That option will still be present under my system for even the most heavily farmed dungeon, setting a 'safety net' beneath which the value of tokens cannot go.

However, for my system, there's the potential for the tokens to be worth more than that. Maybe you've just done an Arah run and someone is willing to trade you the equivalent of ten CoF tokens for your Arah tokens. Now those tokens are worth ten times what they are under the current system, people have a correspondingly greater incentive to run Arah over CoF, and people who want armour from a particular dungeon can work towards it by running any dungeon and then trading the tokens, rather than being forced by the game to run the dungeon that provides the right tokens over a dozen times, or by economics to speedrun CoFp1 (or whatever the current FoTM speedrun is).
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#20 ChuyDog08

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 11:07 PM

View Postdraxynnic, on 20 June 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Um...

Wow.

I think you've completely failed to understand how my proposed system would work.

Nothing in my suggestion actually makes it so that any dungeon run has weaker rewards. At the moment, once you've got anything else you want from a particular dungeon, the only purpose for tokens is to trade them in for whatever will give the biggest payoff - usually, as I understand it, trading for rares and then salvaging them, although YMMV. That option will still be present under my system for even the most heavily farmed dungeon, setting a 'safety net' beneath which the value of tokens cannot go.

However, for my system, there's the potential for the tokens to be worth more than that. Maybe you've just done an Arah run and someone is willing to trade you the equivalent of ten CoF tokens for your Arah tokens. Now those tokens are worth ten times what they are under the current system, people have a correspondingly greater incentive to run Arah over CoF, and people who want armour from a particular dungeon can work towards it by running any dungeon and then trading the tokens, rather than being forced by the game to run the dungeon that provides the right tokens over a dozen times, or by economics to speedrun CoFp1 (or whatever the current FoTM speedrun is).

I get what you are saying... I would love this system.  I have trouble getting groups together for Arah and CM.  I need 500 tokens of each for gifts.  I get hit up multiple times a night for COF runs.  I would be happy to trade multiple stacks of Charr Carvings for other dungeon tokens.  If we are talking about wish lists, then why don't we add WvW badges and Fractals Prestine Relics.

However, if they scrap these tokens and stick to Karma and coin as the two monetary standards they can still satisfy your exchange rate idea.  Have an exchange rate vendor in the bank complex in LA.  That vendor would have the floating Karma exchange rates for all the different types of payments currently in the game (dungeon tokens, badges, laurals, guild merits, glory, etc.)  You would only need to visit that vendor to buy the currency you want then go visit the dungeon vendor to buy the item.  You can also sell the other currencies you currently have for karma so they do not have to automatically convert for everyone.  Speculators could buy currency types in expectation of future changes.

It could work, but you would have major resistance from some players.  There is prestige in having certain items depending on the difficuty of certain dungeons.  Others would complain that the idea is catering to the casual player.   The positive part would be reinforcing the  "play how you want to play" motto.

On a side note....   they sould have materials and rare material traders like they did in GW1.  These items could be purchased for karma also.  If I remember correctly they also had a floating exchange rate associated with volume of trades.

#21 Fizzypop

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 11:52 PM

View Postdraxynnic, on 18 June 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

It's a good start - it really is a bit silly. Frankly, I'd like to see them become convertible to some degree so they can actually all be part of the greater economy rather than each being their own little microcosm of it.

Pretty much this. A lot of games do this and end up with so many types of currencies it becomes ridic. I don't think it adds more to the game, but unnecessarily complicates it. At the very least converting is needed. I'd love it to be taken a step further though and merging a few so that you only have 1-3 different types. I've seen what happens in the long run when you don't. It's not pretty.

Edited by Fizzypop, 21 June 2013 - 11:53 PM.


#22 draxynnic

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 02:21 AM

View PostChuyDog08, on 21 June 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

However, if they scrap these tokens and stick to Karma and coin as the two monetary standards they can still satisfy your exchange rate idea.  Have an exchange rate vendor in the bank complex in LA.  That vendor would have the floating Karma exchange rates for all the different types of payments currently in the game (dungeon tokens, badges, laurals, guild merits, glory, etc.)  You would only need to visit that vendor to buy the currency you want then go visit the dungeon vendor to buy the item.  You can also sell the other currencies you currently have for karma so they do not have to automatically convert for everyone.  Speculators could buy currency types in expectation of future changes.
I've been deliberately vague on just how to do the transfers because I'm not sure what the best way to use would be. Using some sort of medium would probably be easiest, the question is whether to use coin or karma as the medium.

And personally, I regard both kinds of fractal relics as dungeon tokens.
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