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#1 Butcher

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 05:31 PM

What is up with ANet and their apparent peg-legged sailor fetish? I understand that every game has a theme, but I swear, there's not a single zone in the game where you won't come accross pirates, bandits, and some @$$hole screaming "look out fer dem dargonz! Theys be everywhere!"

#2 Mhenlo

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 06:19 PM

Cliche is easier than actually coming up with something original?

#3 XRay

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 06:41 PM

you have a problem with angry pirates?

#4 Kymeric

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:15 PM

You prefer undead, maybe? ;)

#5 Whiteone

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:22 PM

View PostKymeric, on 24 June 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

You prefer undead, maybe? ;)

hey, how about undead with a maritime piratey theme
like using anchors as weapons and having corals and stuff on their body
and on top of that we do some undead pirates as well
and some ghost pirates
oh... wait...

#6 Desild

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:23 PM

He clearly wants more Dredge.

More Dredge for everyone! And for good measure, more Kraits. Kraits that fight underwater kind of Kraits.

#7 Mhenlo

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:37 PM

What happened to Oni that pop up out of nowhere and WTFPWN you?

I miss them damn Oni.

#8 MazingerZ

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:38 PM

View PostDesild, on 24 June 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

He clearly wants more Dredge.

More Dredge for everyone! And for good measure, more Kraits. Kraits that fight underwater kind of Kraits.

The enemies in the game appear so damn random.

The Risen are 'meh' after Arah.  Every other nemesis faction... Nightmare Court, the Icebrood, the Flame Legion, the Inquest and whatever bandits are running around... they're pretty much 'meh' by 80.  There's no overarching big bad.  It's like you're living in a world of 'well, life sucks and then you die.'  It's generic.  And since you don't even see an Elder Dragon until you do Arah, the Elder Dragons are almost a non-threat.  And their Champions are pretty much farm fodder.

Edited by MazingerZ, 24 June 2013 - 07:38 PM.

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#9 Kymeric

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:28 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 24 June 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

The enemies in the game appear so damn random.

The Risen are 'meh' after Arah.  Every other nemesis faction... Nightmare Court, the Icebrood, the Flame Legion, the Inquest and whatever bandits are running around... they're pretty much 'meh' by 80.  There's no overarching big bad.  It's like you're living in a world of 'well, life sucks and then you die.'  It's generic.  And since you don't even see an Elder Dragon until you do Arah, the Elder Dragons are almost a non-threat.  And their Champions are pretty much farm fodder.

I think this is the big reason people prefer the pre-30 story to the rest of it.  Before level 30, you have specific villains in your story that give personality to your conflict.  After that it's undead and lizardy forces with inexpressible motives for wanton destruction.

How much more interesting would it have been to fight against the seductively evil plans of Faolain or a member of the Arcane Council who is secretly Inquest, bullying and decieving the rest of the Council but who always seems to have a rational explanation for his actions?  Instead we have abstract ideas like "the dragon's corruption" to battle and villains so alien and immense that we might as well be trying to thwart a weather pattern or continental drift.

If ANet wants better stories, they really need to give the next dragon some specific faces with personality and understandable motive.  In the expansion we need engaging dragon lieutenants to help personify the great dragon, and the majority of the story should focus on bringing them down.

Edited by Kymeric, 24 June 2013 - 08:32 PM.


#10 Feathermoore

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 06:18 PM

View PostMhenlo, on 24 June 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Cliche is easier than actually coming up with something original?

Queue PTS episode now. How I hated the Oni. I can still remember the first time I encountered one.

"Oh look at that pretty waterfall!"
*poof* "GET OVER HERE"
"Oh god no!"

*shudder*

Edited by Feathermoore, 25 June 2013 - 06:19 PM.

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#11 Mhenlo

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 06:31 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 25 June 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Queue PTS episode now. How I hated the Oni. I can still remember the first time I encountered one.

"Oh look at that pretty waterfall!"
*poof* "GET OVER HERE"
"Oh god no!"

*shudder*

They were pretty much the most terrifying creature I remember from GW1. Even the DoA monsters have nothing on the sheer terror of having an unexpected team of Oni pop out and dismantle the nearest player(s).

#12 Kraviec

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 07:04 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 25 June 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Queue PTS episode now. How I hated the Oni. I can still remember the first time I encountered one.

"Oh look at that pretty waterfall!"
*poof* "GET OVER HERE"
"Oh god no!"

*shudder*
But then it was like
"Oh look at that pretty waterfall!"
*poof* "GET OVER HERE"
*discord heores 3-shot Oni*
"yup, a really beautiful waterfall"

#13 aspi

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:06 AM

Did I play another gw1? Oni were pussies and just counted as free frags while vq-ing.

#14 Coren

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:47 AM

View PostKraviec, on 25 June 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:


But then it was like
"Oh look at that pretty waterfall!"
*poof* "GET OVER HERE"
*discord heores 3-shot Oni*
"yup, a really beautiful waterfall"

I guess you weren't around back in the old factions.days :)

On topic: yeah the creativity of ANet has gone down. Heck I've come up with many more interesting plot ideas for living story (like many of us) and yet ANet has decided to discard interesting stories for bland, predictable ones.

#15 Kraviec

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 02:21 PM

View PostCoren, on 26 June 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

I guess you weren't around back in the old factions.days :)

On topic: yeah the creativity of ANet has gone down. Heck I've come up with many more interesting plot ideas for living story (like many of us) and yet ANet has decided to discard interesting stories for bland, predictable ones.
Depends on what you call old factions days. And I'm only referring to subsequent Oni attacks. They weren't scary after the first time because Empathy.

Did anyone notice how stupid and forced is the achievement where you have to salute Horrik? You have no reason to do so, you see him for the first time and you don't even have a chance to talk. He's constantly attacking you and you just stand there and salute him. It's mocking, not showing respect lol
And if you forget how stupid is saluting your enemy during a fight, you could salute anyone, why salute this guy in particular when he has no meaning to the story?

#16 Mhenlo

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 02:46 PM

View Postaspi, on 26 June 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Did I play another gw1? Oni were pussies and just counted as free frags while vq-ing.

You couldn't have played during the release of factions if you think that. There was a time when they were badass.

EDIT: Maybe I'm a wimp too... Just sayin.

Edited by Mhenlo, 26 June 2013 - 02:46 PM.


#17 aspi

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:26 PM

Ineptitude worked, as far as I can remember. But the begin of factions was a long time ago, maybe I just remember the last years.
With my warrior I was just glad that I got a normal mob of oni's instead of all the melee hate in factions.

#18 Konzacelt

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:28 PM

View PostButcher, on 24 June 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

What is up with ANet and their apparent peg-legged sailor fetish? I understand that every game has a theme, but I swear, there's not a single zone in the game where you won't come accross pirates, bandits, and some @$$hole screaming "look out fer dem dargonz! Theys be everywhere!"

Because GW2 writing was meant for children and hippies.  I swear you have to be high to find this lore interesting lol.

Edited by Konzacelt, 26 June 2013 - 04:29 PM.


#19 Mhenlo

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:34 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 26 June 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Because GW2 writing was meant for children and hippies.  I swear you have to be high to find this lore interesting lol.

C'mon man, leave the hippies out of it. We like good literature too.

But, the game is better stoned if that is what you meant. :P

(Then again, what isn't? ;) )

#20 Konzacelt

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:48 PM

View PostMhenlo, on 26 June 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

C'mon man, leave the hippies out of it. We like good literature too.

But, the game is better stoned if that is what you meant. :P

(Then again, what isn't? ;) )

Ha!  Well true...perhaps I'm thinking of someone else.  Lame Hipsters maybe? ^_^

Edited by Konzacelt, 26 June 2013 - 04:48 PM.


#21 MazingerZ

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:55 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 26 June 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

Ha!  Well true...perhaps I'm thinking of someone else.  Lame Hipsters maybe? ^_^

I think you mean posers.
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#22 Miragee

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 10:08 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 24 June 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

The enemies in the game appear so damn random.

The Risen are 'meh' after Arah.  Every other nemesis faction... Nightmare Court, the Icebrood, the Flame Legion, the Inquest and whatever bandits are running around... they're pretty much 'meh' by 80.  There's no overarching big bad.  It's like you're living in a world of 'well, life sucks and then you die.'  It's generic.  And since you don't even see an Elder Dragon until you do Arah, the Elder Dragons are almost a non-threat.  And their Champions are pretty much farm fodder.

The problem is: There is no ♥♥♥♥ing place in the world that is not civilisized by the 5 playable races. They are everywhere. And because they are all humanisized in gw2 they give every area the same flair. You can't feel the different cultures or rough wilderness because its nonexistent. I mean remember tyria in gw1? Ascalon, shut down from the rest of the world, fighting ascalonians standing against the charr on wasted field. Ascalon where you can peak way north to the northern wall into the dragons gullet that possibly no human stepped food in in that point in time? The shiver peaks as largely dwarfen teritory with only a handful of humans in the few friendly dwarfen communities? And more and more wilderness with avicara and such where the influence of the stone summit dwindled? Kryta with it's fields and farmers in a civilisation under the white mantle? The maguuma jungle being a jungle wild and nasty with the shining blade hiding there more or less. The crystal desert empty and hopeless. A match between scattered pieces of a failed civilisation, mysterious forgottens and the rough life forms of a desert. In GW2 nearly all areas are the same: The 5 Races or the Pact (which is the 5 races as well) + 1-x random, often also humanisized races. They have all a similar flair beside their landscape. I think making every area so civilisized takes a lot of magic from the world.

#23 Mhenlo

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:15 PM

To go along with what Miragee said: it all feels very lazy and unimaginative. It is the difference between a handful of passionate developers making their perfect game through blood, sweat and tears and a conglomerate of underpaid amateur developers (sans original founders) making a game to pad NCSoft's pockets with very little direction or understanding of its predecessor.

This coupled with the continuing lack of the game getting better gives me very little hope for its future. And that makes me a sad panda.

#24 Konzacelt

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 04:36 PM

View PostMiragee, on 26 June 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

The problem is: There is no ♥♥♥♥ing place in the world that is not civilisized by the 5 playable races. They are everywhere. And because they are all humanisized in gw2 they give every area the same flair. You can't feel the different cultures or rough wilderness because its nonexistent. I mean remember tyria in gw1? Ascalon, shut down from the rest of the world, fighting ascalonians standing against the charr on wasted field. Ascalon where you can peak way north to the northern wall into the dragons gullet that possibly no human stepped food in in that point in time? The shiver peaks as largely dwarfen teritory with only a handful of humans in the few friendly dwarfen communities? And more and more wilderness with avicara and such where the influence of the stone summit dwindled? Kryta with it's fields and farmers in a civilisation under the white mantle? The maguuma jungle being a jungle wild and nasty with the shining blade hiding there more or less. The crystal desert empty and hopeless. A match between scattered pieces of a failed civilisation, mysterious forgottens and the rough life forms of a desert. In GW2 nearly all areas are the same: The 5 Races or the Pact (which is the 5 races as well) + 1-x random, often also humanisized races. They have all a similar flair beside their landscape. I think making every area so civilisized takes a lot of magic from the world.

I totally agree with you, but you realize why they did this right?  "Cooperation is King" should be GW2's motto.  Whether it's class mechanics, lore, dialogue, combat, UI, dungeons/temples, etc., almost everything in this game is geared toward working with other players to achieve the best results.  It's a sound business decision to require more players to complete content, and what better way to implement that than through the story and combat?  They infused their business model into their gameplay and storyline models to the point where individuality is a rare commodity.

This is the very root of ANet's folly with GW2.  They destroyed that which was great about Guild Wars because they were so scared they would fail with a game of this size.  The individual customization(not the aesthetics), the GvG and AB PvP modes, the challenging hard-mode content(before Nightfall), the distinct human cultural areas(which is related to what you're talking about).  All of these things fell to the wayside to some degree in favor of anything which would better ensure a more successful and profitable mmo.

I'm not saying these things are all absolute.  I mean, they may add a GvG map in the future for instance, but it would only be because of player demand.  The foundations of the game are still flawed though, and I don't really see a way to fix that besides either a complete overhaul of the profession mechanics and especially the lore, or a giant redo button.

Btw, when and if they introduce Cantha to this game, expect the same exact look to it that you do now.  Norn, Asura, Charr, Sylvari will all be walkin 'round Kaineng like they've owned the place for a thousand years.  Why?  Well because everything, and everyone, has to be equal.

GW2 is the mmo version of those little league games where you get a trophy just for showing up.

We're all winners!!   -_-

#25 Mhenlo

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 05:11 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 27 June 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

I totally agree with you, but you realize why they did this right?  "Cooperation is King" should be GW2's motto.  Whether it's class mechanics, lore, dialogue, combat, UI, dungeons/temples, etc., almost everything in this game is geared toward working with other players to achieve the best results.  It's a sound business decision to require more players to complete content, and what better way to implement that than through the story and combat?  They infused their business model into their gameplay and storyline models to the point where individuality is a rare commodity.

This is the very root of ANet's folly with GW2.  They destroyed that which was great about Guild Wars because they were so scared they would fail with a game of this size.  The individual customization(not the aesthetics), the GvG and AB PvP modes, the challenging hard-mode content(before Nightfall), the distinct human cultural areas(which is related to what you're talking about).  All of these things fell to the wayside to some degree in favor of anything which would better ensure a more successful and profitable mmo.

I'm not saying these things are all absolute.  I mean, they may add a GvG map in the future for instance, but it would only be because of player demand.  The foundations of the game are still flawed though, and I don't really see a way to fix that besides either a complete overhaul of the profession mechanics and especially the lore, or a giant redo button.

Btw, when and if they introduce Cantha to this game, expect the same exact look to it that you do now.  Norn, Asura, Charr, Sylvari will all be walkin 'round Kaineng like they've owned the place for a thousand years.  Why?  Well because everything, and everyone, has to be equal.

GW2 is the mmo version of those little league games where you get a trophy just for showing up.

We're all winners!!   -_-

Funny enough, it looks like it will be neither more successful nor more profitable than Guild Wars 1. Go figure.

#26 MazingerZ

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 05:32 PM

View PostKonzacelt, on 27 June 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

I totally agree with you, but you realize why they did this right?  "Cooperation is King" should be GW2's motto.  Whether it's class mechanics, lore, dialogue, combat, UI, dungeons/temples, etc., almost everything in this game is geared toward working with other players to achieve the best results.  It's a sound business decision to require more players to complete content, and what better way to implement that than through the story and combat?  They infused their business model into their gameplay and storyline models to the point where individuality is a rare commodity.

The problem is that a good narrative thrives on conflict, especially one in a high fantasy setting.  But there is no conflict.  There are no villains.  I'm reading Twilight of the Aspects right now and as cliche as it can be, it has both personal and open conflict in it.  Hell, the narratives of all the WoW expansions had some form of conflict in their narratives (thought a more linear conflict didn't develop until Wrath).

The Elder Dragons are like Lovecraftian horrors, but they have nothing that creates conflict.  Even the Reapers in ME operated through Saren.  The Old Gods operated through other agents that were villains.  The Elder Dragons don't operate through anyone.  It's a monster movie.  Like Godzilla.

To Miragee's point about every zone feeling civilized, this is correct.  Because instead of mounts, we have waypoints.  Waypoints everywhere.  Even in Orr, the stronghold of an Elder Dragon.  End game areas in WoW up till Cata (when they seriously nerfed transportation) were pretty expansive...  Un'Goro, Tanaris, Plaguelands, Shadowmoon Valley... all had maybe two hubs at most, and you basically rode off in to the wilderness.  All had a definitive sense of no-man's land.  At best, Malchor's Leap might have this sense.
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#27 Featherman

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:04 PM

I wouldn't put it against ANet if they decided to reboot the lore.

View PostKonzacelt, on 27 June 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

We're all winners!!   -_-

When everyone is a winner, no one will be.

Edited by Featherman, 27 June 2013 - 06:04 PM.


#28 Fantasy Trope

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:20 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 27 June 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

To Miragee's point about every zone feeling civilized, this is correct.  Because instead of mounts, we have waypoints.  Waypoints everywhere.  Even in Orr, the stronghold of an Elder Dragon.  End game areas in WoW up till Cata (when they seriously nerfed transportation) were pretty expansive...  Un'Goro, Tanaris, Plaguelands, Shadowmoon Valley... all had maybe two hubs at most, and you basically rode off in to the wilderness.  All had a definitive sense of no-man's land.  At best, Malchor's Leap might have this sense.

I think this puts a finger on one of my main disappointments with Guild Wars 2.  I spent many hours wandering through the wildernesses of GW1.  When I played WoW (Vanilla and BC) I found places such as Plaguelands and Un'Goro to be strange and wild, almost threatening, like one of those great adventure stories you read as a kid where the heroes have to prepare and pack because they don't know what they'll face or when (even if!) they'll be coming back.  In those WoW zones, you would land at the one safe flight master and then trek out into the great unknown, farther and father into danger (culminating in instances like pre-Cata Stratholme).

I don't know if those feelings can be recaptured with the current state of the game.  It certainly won't happen with Sky Pirates or whatever kiddie iteration is currently being released for RNG milking story development.  And now I want to lower my expectations for Anet's reinterpretation of favorite GW1 area, the Crystal Desert (if it is ever released).  The last thing I would want is for it to be "domesticated" (for lack of a better term).

#29 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:54 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 27 June 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

To Miragee's point about every zone feeling civilized, this is correct.  Because instead of mounts, we have waypoints.  Waypoints everywhere.  Even in Orr, the stronghold of an Elder Dragon.  End game areas in WoW up till Cata (when they seriously nerfed transportation) were pretty expansive...  Un'Goro, Tanaris, Plaguelands, Shadowmoon Valley... all had maybe two hubs at most, and you basically rode off in to the wilderness.  All had a definitive sense of no-man's land.  At best, Malchor's Leap might have this sense.

Waypoints are amazing. Paying for them isn't. As a result, I normally walk everywhere.
What I am trying to say here is that waypoints aren't the central issue here (although I wouldn't really object to losing a few of them IF A.Net fixed the issues that waypoints are currently alleviating): as I said, I walk pretty much everywhere and I feel the same way you do which makes me believe it's not waypoints that are the issue here. As I've said a number of times, I think the big issue in GW2 is the amount of content in any given area combined with hearts.

What this means is that when players are levelling up, every area basically has JUST the amount of content that is needed to keep up with the area itself. As a result, players are forced to explore every piece of the map and that, not waypoints, kills the "no man's land" feeling in GW2. For instance, I am ALWAYS reminded of GW1's Maguuma Jungle as one of my absolutely favourite areas that I have ever experienced in any game: the jungle personally appeals to me but, more importantly, it showcases GW1's area design in an amazing way: players were "forced" to pass through these zones, but we were normally only forced to explore a tiny portion of said zone. Now, GW2 has multiple zones for each level, but the problem is that when you choose a zone, there's no way to make it your own: you need to follow a predetermined path and you need to follow that path VERY closely because otherwise you are going to clash with the game's vertical progression.

And then, there are hearts. While hearts are quite annoying when you are levelling, I think that once you reach 80 they really become one of the game's biggest downfalls: world exploration could be GW2's end-game the way we had GW1's cartography, but hearts make this into one of the single most tedious processes I have ever experienced. They are utterly un-enjoyable and they are completely mandatory to obtain world exploration. (Don't get we wrong, hugging walls in GW1 was equally annoying, but hugging walls never felt so central to the exploration as GW2 hearts do. They are both obscenely dumb ideas, but GW1's wall hugging seems to be an unintentional by-product, whereas hearts are very much intentional.)


And I think that's much more problematic in terms of how it creates a "Kilroy was here"-feeling than waypoints.

Edited by Ritualist, 28 June 2013 - 06:36 AM.





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