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#1 Vexorn

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 11:28 PM

Hey everyone,
I've been reading up on all the dungeons that have been added. Am I to surmise that you "grind" to gain tokens to purchase weapons? Furthermore, all of these weapons seem to have the same stats as other exotics. I don't know how dungeons in other games work (I'm not one for dungeons... yet ;)) But it begs the question, what's the point? Is it that the bosses are challenging? Or is it just something to do? Tell me your interesting experiences!

Regards.

#2 Lordkrall

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 11:36 PM

View PostVexorn, on 24 June 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

Hey everyone,
I've been reading up on all the dungeons that have been added. Am I to surmise that you "grind" to gain tokens to purchase weapons? Furthermore, all of these weapons seem to have the same stats as other exotics. I don't know how dungeons in other games work (I'm not one for dungeons... yet ;)) But it begs the question, what's the point? Is it that the bosses are challenging? Or is it just something to do? Tell me your interesting experiences!

Regards.

There is currently only one dungeon that is still in the game that was added after release (Fractals of the Mists, and thats a special case).

You do the different paths to get tokens which can be traded for weapons or armor.  And these does indeed have the same level of stats as other exotics (all exotics of the same level have equal stats).

The point is simply that people like to do them. There are several ways to get exotic gear in the game, some prefer crafting, some prefer WvW:ing, some prefer buying them and some prefer doing dungeons for them.

#3 Arewn

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 11:43 PM

Dungeons are in sore need of improvement in GW2, I'm not sure how familiar you are with dungeons, but in MMORPGs the standard is to use the 'holy trinity', a system that works off of each group having damage dealers, a  tank, and a healer. It's a good system over all but it causes some problems because it means someone HAS to fill each role, and you are sometimes forced to play without a friend, or wait excessively long amounts of time to find someone for that role.
GW2 decided to throw that all away and go with the approach of "everyone is DPS, but every will also contribute to  the group with a bit of healing, support, control, tanking, etc". Thus far it has been fun and refreshing, not to mention more involved then being a dps in most other games, but their new system is suffering growing pains that need to be ironed out, and boss encounters need improving.

The purpose of doing dungeons is for enjoyment of the experience and rewards. They generally net you decent gold, random items drops which may include rare crafting materials, and the tokens (which are one way to get your armor and weapons).
More specifics on the tokens: most games have their dungeon bosses drop random loot from a table of possible loot, so you have to run the dungeon many times before getting the item you want to drop. GW2 decided to reward tokens instead, so that you can spend the tokens directly on the item you want instead of waiting on random drops.

There's also a bit of a 'speed run' community that's nestling in, where people run a dungeon in an organized group to see how fast they can do it, then post the video on youtube as proof.

Edited by Arewn, 25 June 2013 - 12:38 AM.


#4 Vexorn

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 12:14 AM

Wow, thanks Arewn and Lordkrall for the informative posts! Very much appreciated.

#5 Mhenlo

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 12:14 AM

View PostArewn, on 24 June 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

Snip

Pretty much all of this. Everything ANet tried to do was with good intentions and there is quite a bit of disagreement about how well it was executed.

Dungeons are not necessarily very fun after the few times you do them. However, you are guaranteed that if you do them enough you will get the item you want - as opposed to waiting for it to drop or having to buy it on the TP.

Team content in general needs a lot of work in order for it to be as good as other games, especially GW2's predecessor. The only downfall right now is that while there are some glaring issues that many people can agree need fixing, we haven't seen much from ANet in the way of actually fixing anything.

As it stands, it is worth doing every dungeon path a few times until you get the hang of it. Once you learn the tricks of each dungeons, they are pretty easy to do and that is when everything starts going downhill. Instead of the actual depth of combat being the thing that makes dungeons fun and repeatable - it is the learning of the idiosyncrasies of the dungeon. Unfortunately, once you know them - you know them - and the luster slowly starts to tarnish.

#6 Vexorn

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 12:31 AM

Interesting. Does ANet know of these issues? Maybe they're going to fix these in an expansion?

#7 Arewn

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 12:58 AM

View PostVexorn, on 25 June 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

Interesting. Does ANet know of these issues? Maybe they're going to fix these in an expansion?
I can only assume they are conscious of them, and we've seen some improvements to boss mechanics in the recent temporary dungeons, but there are some core problems that they haven't really touched on yet.
For example, because you don't NEED someone to tank and take damage, and because you don't NEED someone to heal in order to survive, taking stats associated with those roles (such as healing power or vitality) generally ends up being fairly wasteful. In most situations in PVE dungeons (it's a whole different story in PvP), you're best off just using full damage gear.
As someone whose new to dungeons, you might want some defensive stats on your gear to act as a buffer though.
I was about to go on a rant about condition damage, but looking at your profile you've been here since January, so I'm assuming you already know how it works xD

#8 Vexorn

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 01:07 AM

Yeah, I've done a few runs of the Ascalonian Catacombs, but by no means a dungeon expert. I mean, you could always just reset your builds right? The profits you make from the dungeons should offset the stat point reset cost, no?

#9 Fantasy Trope

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 03:56 AM

View PostVexorn, on 25 June 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

Interesting. Does ANet know of these issues? Maybe they're going to fix these in an expansion?

I assume they know about them.  In fact, their pre-launch intention seemed to be to have an alternative trinity: support, control and damage.  It would be nice if they could have actually implemented something like that.  Unfortunately, who knows how much needs to change with both boss and skill design to make this viable and enjoyable for an expansion.  (Besides, their current revenue model does not depend on fixing these mechanics, especially since the kinds of people who buy RNG boxes do not necessarily care about balanced, deep gameplay with strong roles and intricate fights.)

#10 Arewn

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:29 AM

View PostFantasy Trope, on 25 June 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

I assume they know about them.  In fact, their pre-launch intention seemed to be to have an alternative trinity: support, control and damage.  It would be nice if they could have actually implemented something like that.  Unfortunately, who knows how much needs to change with both boss and skill design to make this viable and enjoyable for an expansion.  (Besides, their current revenue model does not depend on fixing these mechanics, especially since the kinds of people who buy RNG boxes do not necessarily care about balanced, deep gameplay with strong roles and intricate fights.)
While they did say something along the lines of "our version of the trinity is damage, support control" they also said "everyone does damage, but every one also contribute through supporting, control, etc". Their intention was never to get rid of the old trinity and add a new one, they presented their so called trinity as a familiar comparison.
After all, it'd be pretty pointless to get rid of the holy trinity's tanks and healers with the intention of getting rid of required dungeon roles so that anyone can play together however they want, if they were just going to add control and support as required roles instead.

#11 Sheepski

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 03:02 PM

As to the reasoning behind doing them; the weapons and armours have unique, and good skins. If you like the gear, then you do the dungeon to earn it. I think a lot of people do this to get a more "prestigious" set rather than the bog standard crafting gear. Although it's obviously open to personal tastes as well.

The second reason to run them a lot, is to earn gold. Most dungeons paths give decent gold per hour, while a few are better and thus you see cof p1 farmers... but you can run any dungeon and earn more than you'd get just running around the world or doing world bosses etc.

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#12 Kichwas

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 04:18 PM

View PostArewn, on 24 June 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

The purpose of doing dungeons is for enjoyment of the experience and rewards.

Except in GW2 that is also different, and is rather:

The purpose of doing dungeons is for enjoyment of the experience

If you're there for the other part of your sentence, this game will frustrate you. "The reward" is just not part of their core design, and no matter how much they try to patch it on after the fact, this is an MMO team that is not nested in that paradigm. They will never quite get it right.

#13 Arewn

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 05:42 PM

View PostKichwas, on 25 June 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Except in GW2 that is also different, and is rather:

The purpose of doing dungeons is for enjoyment of the experience

If you're there for the other part of your sentence, this game will frustrate you. "The reward" is just not part of their core design, and no matter how much they try to patch it on after the fact, this is an MMO team that is not nested in that paradigm. They will never quite get it right.
As Sheepski points out in the post above yours, there are actually descent dungeon rewards.




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