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Axe/Mace DPS Build for Dungeons and Fractals - 04/15/14

dps berserker dungeon fractal axe mace speed clear nike dnt

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#61 Puandro

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:40 PM

I also did some math yesterday and found that 30/0/0/10/30 is superior to 30/25/0/0/15 regardless of what weapon setup you pick. My numbers were a bit different but the trend was the same 30/0 gs+axemace is about 4% better dps personally than 30/25, and when you factor in Empowered Allies buffing the whole team, the comparison isn't close at all.

Additionally, I did about 3 hours of playtesting in game DPS tests on my stream last night and 30/0/0/10/30 build had approximately equal kill times on any boss that lasted more than 2 weapon swaps. For example a generic 3w/m/g team with all gs+axe mace warriors killed the evolved destroyer in 18 seconds from the first hit. 3x pure axe warriors did it in exactly 18 seconds too.

As far as why 30/25 sucks here goes...

1. You have 3% less chance to crit base than the build with 0 in Arms which is a lulz. It also has 15% less crit damage.
2. The 30/25 build maintains an average of 2 stacks of vuln 100% uptime on bosses. Forceful GS maintains on average 3 stacks of Might. I think a lot of people overestimate what these two traits do. the 2 vuln stacks are nice, I'll agree. However, the 30/0 build maintains 2 stacks of Might from versatile power so these roughly cancel out because I am also assuming in the Forceful calculation that all 3 hits of WW hit everytime, which we know is bs.
3. I only assumed 3 boons for Empowered, we all know in a real boss fight that is a conservative number. The more boons 30/0 has the further ahead it goes. the 30/25 build does have the 10% damage vs bleeding buff, but the difference in base damage modifiers is only 4%. Which is canceled out by 2 boons, and even without the two boons 30/0 is superior so adding them in is hilarious.
4. You have the ability with 30/0 to bring empowered allies which is basically adding 750 power to your team dps, which is a party-wide buff that 30/25 has nothing similar for unless they can bring 2 copies of banner of strength that stack.

So all in all, 30/0/0/10/30 is the superior trait spread for DPS regardless of which weapon set you use. In practice pure axe and gs+axe have virtually identical kill times in any fight lasting longer than 2 weapon swaps. The gs pulls ahead in shorter fights, and fights where the boss is pushed against a wall.


Are you saying 30/25 GS Axe/Mace has identical kill times than 30/0 Pure Axe build after 2 weapon swaps (10 seconds into the fight). Or 30/0 GS Axe/Mace vs 30/0 Pure Axe?

And yes there is no discussion on how powerful Empowered Allies is for the whole group, what im talking about is what is better once that buff is brought by the 1st warrior to the group.
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#62 Nikephoros

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:53 PM

No, what I'm saying (I thought I was crystal clear, guess not) is that 30/0/0/10/30 (gs+axe OR axe+axe) is superior to 30/25 gs+axe regardless. The part that is virtually identical is that within the 30/0/0/10/30 builds either GS+axe or Axe+axe is viable as the kill times are indistinguishable for anything longer than 2 weapon swaps or when the boss is pushed against a wall.

It's reasonable to debate which to use, GS+axe or Axe+axe since it comes down to personal preference and instance by instance basis. However, we both agree that when discussing 30/0 vs 30/25, there is no debate, 30/0 is clearly superior.
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#63 Puandro

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 02:58 PM

No, what I'm saying (I thought I was crystal clear, guess not) is that 30/0/0/10/30 (gs+axe OR axe+axe) is superior to 30/25 gs+axe regardless. The part that is virtually identical is that within the 30/0/0/10/30 builds either GS+axe or Axe+axe is viable as the kill times are indistinguishable for anything longer than 2 weapon swaps or when the boss is pushed against a wall.

It's reasonable to debate which to use, GS+axe or Axe+axe since it comes down to personal preference and instance by instance basis. However, we both agree that when discussing 30/0 vs 30/25, there is no debate, 30/0 is clearly superior.


I cant agree that pure Axe is on the same level as gs/axe vs the 30/25 or 30/0. Yes 30/0 has superior damage bonuses but that doesnt make it better than Axe because Axe by itself doesnt do as much damage as GS.

The way i look at it is, 30/0 > 30/25 GS/Axe when you are might capped. 30/25 > 30/0 if you are not like in a PuG. I know that you said you calculated it with 3 buffs for empowered but i did my math with 5 buffs as this is the average you should get from a mesmer and guard in a grp.

If you are wondering why i even care what you or anyone runs and i should just stfu and run my build if i think its superior its because most ppl cant think for themselves so they see someone from DnT who is known for speed runs due to Strifes video guides so they assume you are correct and run that build. Last time someone pushed pure Axe as the superior build (Strife) i had to live with 2 months of wars running pure Axe in PuGs until Strife changed his guide to the GS/Axe build. I would like to avoid that since its already happening as we speak. Not all my friends run dungeons anymore so i end up pugging like 3/4 of my runs and rarely do full runs anymore with them.
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#64 Nikephoros

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:42 PM

Well you're just wrong then. 30/0 pure axe is superior to 30/25 greatsword in every circumstance. 30/0 axe is more or less equal to 30/0 greatsword, so comparing it to 30/25 (WHICH IS STRICTLY INFERIOR IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES) is a lark. I don't know how you arrived at your math with the 30/25 build, but its just incorrect.

Before factoring in the might and vuln (and assuming 3 boons) the 30/0 is 7% better. Then you get 3 vuln stacks and 1 stack of Might more than the 30/0 build gets. Still worse by a heathy margin. Even in a bad pug with no support. Still worse.

So again, like I said, there is no debate: 30/0 is superior in all possible circumstances to 30/25.

The debate becomes whether you should use pure axe vs gs+axe. I don't know what estimations or math you utilized but I spent hours doing actual gameplay where I controlled what builds were used by the team and the kill times were, again, indistinguishable for any fight lasting more than two weapon swaps or when the boss isnt against a wall. When the fight lasts under 2 swaps and/or the boss is against the wall the GS is superior. I don't think we disagree about this. Unless you think that even on long fights or boss in the open gs is still significantly better. In that case I don't know what to say other than I tested it and its pretty clear to me.

For what its worth, a lot of dungeon speed clear guilds (not us) went back to pure BEFORE this patch because it improved their kill times. So it's pretty dubious to suggest that this patch made axe kill times worse.

My advice is to do what I did: get 4 other players and have them run controlled builds in various scenarios and see what the numbers say. I assure you that your conclusion will be the same as mine, " the kill times were indistinguishable for any fight lasting more than two weapon swaps or when the boss isnt against a wall. When the fight lasts under 2 swaps and/or the boss is against the wall the GS is superior."
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#65 Puandro

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 04:58 PM

First i would like to say to keep the discussion civil (not that anyone has not done that so far) as if im proven wrong or you are it would improve our experience in game and that is good.

I am not in front of my computer and wont be until tonight so i cant reply about the 30/25 vs 30/0 until then. What i can say atm is that its silly to claim axe can keep up with gs axe with the 30/0 build. Basically you are saying that staying pure axe is the same dps as swapping to GS every 8 secs to HB and WW and greatsword swing over 5 secs then swapping back to Axe.

So yes i do claim that gs axe > pure axe with the 30/0 build in long fights.
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#66 BrazilTheHue

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:06 PM

First i would like to say to keep the discussion civil (not that anyone has not done that so far) as if im proven wrong or you are it would improve our experience in game and that is good.

I am not in front of my computer and wont be until tonight so i cant reply about the 30/25 vs 30/0 until then. What i can say atm is that its silly to claim axe can keep up with gs axe with the 30/0 build. Basically you are saying that staying pure axe is the same dps as swapping to GS every 8 secs to HB and WW and greatsword swing over 5 secs then swapping back to Axe.

So yes i do claim that gs axe > pure axe with the 30/0 build in long fights.


And what if you've got to interrupt Hundred Blades to move or dodge? You can move around while attacking with Axe and you can also dodge and continue the autoattack chain uninterrupted. Dodging or moving to cancel Hundred Blades is certainly lower DPS than Axe.
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#67 Puandro

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:31 PM

And what if you've got to interrupt Hundred Blades to move or dodge? You can move around while attacking with Axe and you can also dodge and continue the autoattack chain uninterrupted. Dodging or moving to cancel Hundred Blades is certainly lower DPS than Axe.


Well this is true but you should be experienced enough in the content to know when its safe to HB, i mean thats why we can get away with zerk builds, its because we know the content.
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#68 Nikephoros

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:36 PM

I live streamed, recorded, and published the dps tests and the results were conclusive that the dps was basically equal in long fights or when bosses aren't against the wall. The math says they are more or less equal and the real world testing backs it up. I don't see what more I can do prove it than I already have. What's even more funny is I am currently running GS+axe so we are arguing a pretty weird thing as it seems we agree in practice lol.

Thats said, I updated the original post to include GS+axe and updated the video and added a build calculator link. Super serving you guys!
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#69 BrazilTheHue

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:37 PM

Well this is true but you should be experienced enough in the content to know when its safe to HB, i mean thats why we can get away with zerk builds, its because we know the content.


Aha!
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#70 Puandro

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 06:09 PM

Aha!


So you are claiming you dont know the content well enough to use zerk gear with GS?
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#71 BrazilTheHue

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 06:12 PM

So you are claiming you dont know the content well enough to use zerk gear with GS?


I think the video evidence of me playing the game speaks for itself. The average person playing the game? They may find that they need to interrupt their Hundred Blades in order to dodge.
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#72 Puandro

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 06:43 PM

I think the video evidence of me playing the game speaks for itself. The average person playing the game? They may find that they need to interrupt their Hundred Blades in order to dodge.


But we arent discussing builds or rotations for the average player are we? If we were we would be running shout heal warriors and cleric gear wearing guardians withmace and shield.

I have to interrupt my HB in pugs once in a while due to ppl moving mobs with bad KBs or pulls but when i run with my friends i dont remember the last time i did, if i can manage that i cant see how the self proclaimed best gw2 player cant do the same or better.

@Nike, ill get back to you tonight once im home since there is no point atm until im in front of my computer. Good talk though.
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#73 Nikephoros

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 07:26 PM

So what is it we disagree about, fundamentally speaking? I think our big difference is you think GS rotation is so superior that 30/25 greatsword is better than 30/0 pure axe. Since I havent done real world testing on the 30/25 build I can't definitely say that is incorrect. However, I know definitively that 30/0 GS is superior to 30/25 GS. I also know that 30/0 GS/Axe is more or less identical in practical dps to 30/0 Axe+Axe.

A > B.

A = C

therefore C > B

I'm not a math major so correct me if my logic is wrong.

Edit: I also want to add the following...

Let's assume I am wrong and 30/25 GS is better than 30/0 pure axe. So... what? We agree that 30/0 GS is better than 30/25 GS. So even if pure axe was suboptimal, it wouldnt suddenly make 30/25 optimal. It would just make 30/25 at best the 2nd best choice, and 2nd best isn't what we are in the business of using.

Edited by Nikephoros, 28 June 2013 - 07:29 PM.

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#74 BrazilTheHue

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 07:27 PM

But we arent discussing builds or rotations for the average player are we? If we were we would be running shout heal warriors and cleric gear wearing guardians withmace and shield.

I have to interrupt my HB in pugs once in a while due to ppl moving mobs with bad KBs or pulls but when i run with my friends i dont remember the last time i did, if i can manage that i cant see how the self proclaimed best gw2 player cant do the same or better.


"Average players" actually use these builds too, and I'm sure that some at least care about DPS losses. There's no need for such phallic fallacies. Hundred Blades is much easier to interrupt than Axe autoattack. You've got a higher chance of losing out on DPS. And I don't see how me being the best Guild Wars 2 player (which I am) has to do with this. I'm talking about everyone that uses Greatsword and Axe / Mace. They've all got a pretty good chance at interrupting a Hundred Blades.

And I do believe you spoke of Greatsword with Axe / Mace being better in longer fights? Longer fights mean more opportunities for something to go wrong. That's generally how it goes. Axe's mobility is simply more reliable DPS. I know that there are plenty of people that will prefer Greatsword and Axe / Mace, I'm one of them. I like the play style. I don't agree that the DPS is higher.
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#75 Puandro

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:19 PM

"Average players" actually use these builds too, and I'm sure that some at least care about DPS losses. There's no need for such phallic fallacies. Hundred Blades is much easier to interrupt than Axe autoattack. You've got a higher chance of losing out on DPS. And I don't see how me being the best Guild Wars 2 player (which I am) has to do with this. I'm talking about everyone that uses Greatsword and Axe / Mace. They've all got a pretty good chance at interrupting a Hundred Blades.

And I do believe you spoke of Greatsword with Axe / Mace being better in longer fights? Longer fights mean more opportunities for something to go wrong. That's generally how it goes. Axe's mobility is simply more reliable DPS. I know that there are plenty of people that will prefer Greatsword and Axe / Mace, I'm one of them. I like the play style. I don't agree that the DPS is higher.


If the average player didnt have problems using the old gs axe mace build they should have np using the new ones. Longer fights do usually mean higher chance of things going wrong but it sometimes just bosses with too much freaking health.

I have no interest in figuring out the best build for the average player if they cant do a rotation right or predict AI movements when they are usually a simple rotation of skills. The average player cant use full zerk wars in melee outside of CoF1. If you want to discuss the best build taking the average player into consideration thats fine but im not the right person to do it with.

Ps: Do you guys know a player named Rare (rage?) Lightwater. Its a thief that said he runs with Strife but i didnt see him with the DnT tag.
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#76 Puandro

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:25 PM

So what is it we disagree about, fundamentally speaking? I think our big difference is you think GS rotation is so superior that 30/25 greatsword is better than 30/0 pure axe. Since I havent done real world testing on the 30/25 build I can't definitely say that is incorrect. However, I know definitively that 30/0 GS is superior to 30/25 GS. I also know that 30/0 GS/Axe is more or less identical in practical dps to 30/0 Axe+Axe.

A > B.

A = C

therefore C > B

I'm not a math major so correct me if my logic is wrong.

Edit: I also want to add the following...

Let's assume I am wrong and 30/25 GS is better than 30/0 pure axe. So... what? We agree that 30/0 GS is better than 30/25 GS. So even if pure axe was suboptimal, it wouldnt suddenly make 30/25 optimal. It would just make 30/25 at best the 2nd best choice, and 2nd best isn't what we are in the business of using.


Yes this is what ive been saying. 30/0 GS > 30/25 GS > 30/0 Axe. Your original guide claimed pure Axe was better and thats where i disagreed since 30/25 is superior but last i was looking into 30/0 with GS and it is indeed better even without forceful. Also i saw that you edited your guide to include GS now.
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#77 Ship Soo

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:18 PM

First i would like to say to keep the discussion civil



An excellent plan.




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#78 BrazilTheHue

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:47 PM

An excellent plan.




Warrior forum always erupts for some reason...


Too much adrenaline.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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#79 XRay

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:56 PM

Too much adrenaline.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


damn I was gonna say that -.-
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#80 dan daze

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:42 PM

Did some damage calcs and extensive spreadsheeting/theorycrafting last night with my fractal 48 buddies, I would suggest swapping out signet of might for signet of fury. It ends up being a 9% increase to crit chance (which at over 50% bonus crit damage is more effective than an equal % increase to attack) vs a 5% increase to attack. The more might you stack up as well, the more effective it becomes as it is scaling with your attack vs signet of might which is just a flat bonus.

Also, give 30/30/0/10/0 GS/AM a try, you lose out on fast hands, but you are dealing around the same damage and you get those delicious arms traits vs the fairly useless discipline ones.


PM me if you want to discuss the rotation without fast hands/ do some theorycrafting. I found your spec to have about 4% more effective power. but you're losing out on rending strikes and forceful greatsword.

Edited by dan daze, 28 June 2013 - 11:45 PM.

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#81 Mjölner

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 12:13 AM

An excellent plan.




Warrior forum always erupts for some reason...


Indeed, let's have no fighting, please. This is, after all, a council of war.
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#82 Nikephoros

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 03:18 AM

Also, give 30/30/0/10/0 GS/AM a try, you lose out on fast hands, but you are dealing around the same damage and you get those delicious arms traits vs the fairly useless discipline ones.


PM me if you want to discuss the rotation without fast hands/ do some theorycrafting. I found your spec to have about 4% more effective power. but you're losing out on rending strikes and forceful greatsword.


Don't forget the extra 5 stacks of Might your build is missing out by not having versatile power and fast hands fueling a sigil of battle. Not to mention that you auto attack with your greatsword which makes an angel cry every time it happens. It's food for thought but I don't think it's better.
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#83 dan daze

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:01 AM

You only have to fit in 1 aa chain before you swap, what about signet of fury?
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#84 Puandro

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:19 AM

An excellent plan.




Warrior forum always erupts for some reason...


Oh noes a mod.

I think we are done here. Im going to stick with the GS/Axe 30/0 for groups where i can gain might and 30/25 when i pug and can't rely on my group mates for might. As you said above there is no real point in discussing the 2nd and 3rd best since we have the best know build atm.
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#85 Nikaido

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:04 AM

You seem to be stuck in the mindset of weapon swap. If you're using the type of group set up (sssshhhh) that gives constant 25 might stack, you don't need to even think about weapon swap (sigil of battle). Then you're opening the world for 30/25/0/10/5.
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#86 Nikephoros

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 10:39 AM

what about signet of fury?


I did some more math

Signet of Fury is better in this build than Signet of Might.

Fury = 3320*(1+0.8217*1.57)*1.34 = 10,188 EP

Might = 3500*(1+0.7367*1.57)*1.34 = 10,114 EP

The difference is miniscule, less than 1% but it is still better.
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#87 BrazilTheHue

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 11:49 AM



Ah shit I made a video too.
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#88 Wraithpk

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:05 PM

Hey Brazil and Nike, I was looking at your new meta builds for Warrior, Mesmer, and Guardian, and I noticed that with the Warrior changes, you don't have much in the way of vulnerability stacking anymore. Do you think we may be at the point now where it is better group dps to drop one of the Warriors and put in an Engineer or Thief to stack vulnerability?
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#89 BrazilTheHue

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:43 PM

Hey Brazil and Nike, I was looking at your new meta builds for Warrior, Mesmer, and Guardian, and I noticed that with the Warrior changes, you don't have much in the way of vulnerability stacking anymore. Do you think we may be at the point now where it is better group dps to drop one of the Warriors and put in an Engineer or Thief to stack vulnerability?


Guardian can put on like 20 stacks of Vulnerability pretty quickly with blinds, but it's not as sustainable. But I still don't foresee Thieves or Engineers becoming a part of our group setup, but I'd be faster to welcome a Thief than an Engineer.
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#90 Wraithpk

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 11:28 PM

Guardian can put on like 20 stacks of Vulnerability pretty quickly with blinds, but it's not as sustainable. But I still don't foresee Thieves or Engineers becoming a part of our group setup, but I'd be faster to welcome a Thief than an Engineer.


I don't think Guardian could keep up much vulnerability. Doing that would require them going into Zeal, which most AH Guardians can't fit. I know you're not a proponent of AH Guardian, but I mostly PUG, so I can't count on my team staying up without me anchoring. Even with points in Zeal, on a boss fight you'll have the blind from Justice, which is every 30 seconds or so, and from the Gsword leap, which I believe is 10 or 15 seconds. I don't see how you could maintain much more than 5 stacks with a Guardian unless I'm forgetting about something. I'm at work now so can't check my traits.

I'm thinking about how Thief could fill this role. They improved our vulnerability on crit to be a 10s duration, and the pistol #2 is now 10 stacks, although only a 3 second duration. I wonder how beneficial it might be for a Thief to spec for vulnerability stacking and duration, along with getting as much dps as can go with it.
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