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#1 Mizpah

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 10:57 PM

Hi all,

I started this thread ( https://forum-en.gui...rst#post2285599 )on the official forums under general discussion. After reading through lots of the posts here, I know many of you have concerns/gripes/whines towards the new adjustments to the traits & skills. I made that post for the community to leave mature feedback both good and bad about these changes. If you'd like head over there and leave your two cents. Maybe if enough people leave enough comments maybe it will get noticed and maybe Anet will have a better idea of what the community wants - that is if they even care anymore.

Edited by Mizpah, 25 June 2013 - 10:59 PM.


#2 Fantasy Trope

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:48 PM

Honestly, the community on the official forums is terrible and it's hardly worth posting there anymore.

Yes, I said it: terrible.

Anet has done a good job banning the trolls and perpetual whiners who cry about silly, unsubstantial "problems" and gripe about the game without warrant or who post just to inflame the game's supporters.  These people are useless to the game's development, and I'm glad they are gone.

But there still remains one glaring problem: the rabid supporters of the game who take most (sometimes even almost all) criticisms of the game as a personal attack on their own lives.  Constructive criticism is ruthlessly mocked, dismissed as subjective opinion or argued down as "unreasonable expectations" without any indication that it should be taken seriously.  The worst is when these supporters wonder aloud if the person posting discontent is just "seeking attention" or driven by other selfish motives.  It's as if they cannot believe someone actually does not like the game.  These people are just as bad as those who criticize GW2 for stupid, nonsensical reasons, as they prevent any good discussion that would improve the game.

One of the most revealing threads on the forum was titled "What is your /age?"  I watched as some of the most prolific, unreasonable, and uncharitable posters on the board--many of the die-hard supporters mentioned above--posted about their thousands of hours in the game.  Averaged out, many of these forum posters have played the game for over 8 hours a day since release.  One has played over 12 hours a day, and also spends a significant amount of time posting in about a fourth to a third of every thread on the boards.  (He is also loathed with a poisonous intensity by many forum members for his arrogant and divisive demeanor.  Why he hasn't been banned is beyond me.)

Basically, the official forums are dominated by a handful of people who likely struggle with a serious video game addiction, post a lot in many threads (and are thus able to +1 each other, creating an illusion of support), and are deeply distrustful of anyone who expresses displeasure with the game.

I've watched over the months as patient, knowledgeable posters get ground into dust by these people and eventually leave, either by being goaded into infractions/bans or running out of tolerance for such behavior.

I wish your thread all the best.  Really, I do.  But I don't think the official forums are worth the fight anymore.

#3 MazingerZ

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:33 PM

View PostFantasy Trope, on 27 June 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

snip

A thousand times this.  ArenaNet's done nothing but cultivate a crowd of yes-men on those forums.  Their community managers have no concept of PR, they're just there to enforce a black-and-white set of rules to keep the game from looking like a train-wreck to new and prospective players.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#4 Desild

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:38 PM

I'd probably be banned already if I posted actively on the official forums. So glad I don't. Even if I'm frowned by Moderators and alike on Guru for trying to inflame passions, at least I can have a shred of freedom to express myself.

#5 Kichwas

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:48 PM

The flip side of the above is the place is under constant assault from what basically seem like a crowd of 'angry voices' that complain about everything.

If that person you mention is who I think it is, his posts are a lot more balanced and nuanced than the angry voices claim - and he makes a number of criticisms of the game as well.

But some folks are so locked into a cycle of 'hate-love' with the game for commiting the sin of not being WoW-like enough that they gloss over his actual points and just get red with rage...

There really aren't any 'yes-men' over there. There are people who argue back against the 'no-men' crowd though, in between their other posts that are more of a 'maybe-man' in tone.

Of course I'm sure you do (if you recognize me) or would consider me just a 'yes-man' and therefore ignore everything I actually say in favor of whatever in my posts can make you the most angry with not taking your side. So here's some fuel for you: I actually like the trait changes. I've said why in a few places. If I get around to it, I might say why in your post as well. But if you read with care - I'll try to break it down and you might just find that while I like them, that is 'on balance' and not everything is as I would have done it.

#6 Mhenlo

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostKichwas, on 27 June 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

The flip side of the above is the place is under constant assault from what basically seem like a crowd of 'angry voices' that complain about everything.

If that person you mention is who I think it is, his posts are a lot more balanced and nuanced than the angry voices claim - and he makes a number of criticisms of the game as well.

But some folks are so locked into a cycle of 'hate-love' with the game for commiting the sin of not being WoW-like enough that they gloss over his actual points and just get red with rage...

There really aren't any 'yes-men' over there. There are people who argue back against the 'no-men' crowd though, in between their other posts that are more of a 'maybe-man' in tone.

Of course I'm sure you do (if you recognize me) or would consider me just a 'yes-man' and therefore ignore everything I actually say in favor of whatever in my posts can make you the most angry with not taking your side. So here's some fuel for you: I actually like the trait changes. I've said why in a few places. If I get around to it, I might say why in your post as well. But if you read with care - I'll try to break it down and you might just find that while I like them, that is 'on balance' and not everything is as I would have done it.

Ever wonder why that is? Maybe people are upset that the game isn't what was promised or isn't close to its predecessor and feel the need to say something.

I think the saying goes, "Where there is smoke, there is fire."

#7 MazingerZ

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:11 PM

View PostKichwas, on 27 June 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

snip

Claiming 'fair and balanced' does not make you so.  Google 'Informed Attribute.'
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#8 Fantasy Trope

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 09:49 PM

View PostKichwas, on 27 June 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

The flip side of the above is the place is under constant assault from what basically seem like a crowd of 'angry voices' that complain about everything.

If that person you mention is who I think it is, his posts are a lot more balanced and nuanced than the angry voices claim - and he makes a number of criticisms of the game as well.

But some folks are so locked into a cycle of 'hate-love' with the game for commiting the sin of not being WoW-like enough that they gloss over his actual points and just get red with rage...

There really aren't any 'yes-men' over there. There are people who argue back against the 'no-men' crowd though, in between their other posts that are more of a 'maybe-man' in tone.

Of course I'm sure you do (if you recognize me) or would consider me just a 'yes-man' and therefore ignore everything I actually say in favor of whatever in my posts can make you the most angry with not taking your side. So here's some fuel for you: I actually like the trait changes. I've said why in a few places. If I get around to it, I might say why in your post as well. But if you read with care - I'll try to break it down and you might just find that while I like them, that is 'on balance' and not everything is as I would have done it.

For what it's worth, if I've read your posts, then I don't remember your name.

Unfortunately, you have unwittingly demonstrated the current difficulty with the official forums.

The idea that there is some ubiquitous collection of naysayers who are perpetually dissatisfied is only partially true (I can't think of a single poster who regularly complains about everything; all the ones I have in mind were banned or left a while ago) and only serves to prejudicially characterize all critics as fundamentally impossible to please.  It trades on a composition fallacy.  I mean, look at how you've responded to me here.  I don't mean this harshly, but do you even know me?  How could you then assume that I will just rage at whatever point you are going to make?  And why would you take pleasure in that?  This only makes sense if you have bought into a false dichotomy about the nature of the official forums, where the critics are an evil to be defeated and triumphed over, like some modern form of tribal warfare.

As you well know, all MMO forums will have complaints.  That's the nature of the beast.  But once the community is infested with a group of people who automatically dismiss criticisms as the petulant whining of "malcontents" who deserve nothing other than mockery or disdain, the forums lose their intended purpose.  Instead of a place of constructive criticism for the devs, the majority of threads become a front for optics, a war of perceptions where the naysayers must be silenced to maintain a positive view of the game.  This only ensures the game will be stagnant or decay.

As for that poster in question, he serves as a fine example of the larger problem: the issue is his style more than his substance.  His points are decent enough; it's his inability to respect others' perspectives or let go of perceived insults that often ruins threads.  The man does nothing to promote the peaceful exchange of ideas, since, really, for him, the forums are primarily a place to defend Guild Wars 2, rather than a place to critique and improve it, and people who disagree are treated in a supercilious manner.  Indeed, he only tends to respect criticisms he already agrees with.  (That's what happens when you play a game over 12 hours a day since launch.  Now the greatest threat to your existence are those who say your game is deficient in some way.)  Being the second person to post in every negative thread, where all you say is "That's your opinion.  Lots of people enjoy this feature/game/idea.  I love this feature/game/idea." is hardly a useful way to promote good discussion, no matter how nuanced your opinions on the game happen to be.

#9 Snapalope

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 11:03 PM

Wait smart people still post on the official forums?  That place is like ArenaNet defense force HQ where any good constructive critism of the game is considered a death threat on their lives and family and will declare a vandetta on you.

Edited by Snapalope, 27 June 2013 - 11:08 PM.


#10 BnJ

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:14 AM

It's the over the top moderation plus whiny players on vendettas to nerf every class they can't handle that make the official forums unbearable for me.

#11 dannywolt

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:53 AM

View PostKichwas, on 27 June 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

The flip side of the above is the place is under constant assault from what basically seem like a crowd of 'angry voices' that complain about everything.

So true. It is an unavoidable reality that game forums attract a disproportionate number of discontented players. Anyone who has been around since before the beta period has seen it happen here on Guru as well. Initially we had a majority of players excited and positive, then a rather balanced period, and now it has transitioned to more negativity. Not to deny that there are valid points of criticism, but when it inundates every topic it is hard to maintain an unbiased opinion. Those who try to counter-balance the negativity get labeled fanboys and white knights. We end up with two extremes and no open-minded discussion. It is a lose-lose situation so I have started avoiding forums in general. I would rather be playing the game anyway.

#12 Noob On Steroid

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:44 AM

I received a warning for censoring my own post, instead of letting the script censor it for me. Apparently, typing f*ck is "bypassing the swear filter" (well, technically it is, but seriously?)

I stopped posting after that and only visit to read game updates nowadays.

#13 Phadde

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:04 PM

View PostFantasy Trope, on 27 June 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

Honestly, the community on the official forums is terrible and it's hardly worth posting there anymore.

Yes, I said it: terrible.

TL;DR

Agreed. The official forums are dreadful!

Btw, created a thread where I asked where the developers looked for feedback. It got banned because I specifically asked if they looked at the Guru-forums since that's the website that I'm using.

#14 Brunella

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:43 PM

View PostSnapalope, on 27 June 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

Wait smart people still post on the official forums?  That place is like ArenaNet defense force HQ where any good constructive critism of the game is considered a death threat on their lives and family and will declare a vandetta on you.

O.o I  never posted on the official forums, now I wont even try. :)

#15 Elcee

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:05 PM

View PostFantasy Trope, on 27 June 2013 - 06:48 PM, said:

snip

The attitude you're talking about was honestly one of the things(along with the horrible launch issues) that "poisoned the well" for me in the early game so to speak. It was very prevalent in the game and made dealing with the community a big turn-off. Even when you had a proper argument, you were shouted down by the masses, called VOCAL MINORITY!!!!!!!!!! and shouted down. It's really offputting to deal with people who rabidly defended stuff that Anet admitted they screwed up, like the issues with WvW. The whole "look at WoW's launch it had issues too!" thing didn't really hold up either. All these MMOs(not just GW2 mind you) have had so many examples to learn from in the past and yet even with all that history to learn from and all the HUGE budgets they still screw things up.

I remember a jumping puzzle in the southwest of Dredgehaunt Cliffs, don't remember the name. Doing jumping puzzles sucked as a Norn anyway but this one was egregious because of how many ways it screwed your camera up. A lot of non-Norn players had the same issue. It didn't help that the path you had to take didn't line up with the graphics; you were expected to jump THROUGH a wooden plank and jumping to the open area on the side caused you to hit an invisible wall. You wouldn't believe how rabidly the fanboys defended this, telling us to L2P etc. The contrast between map players and the local players I was helping(you know, the ones actually experiencing the issue) was huge. Similar thing happened when I asked if people were having the same issues I was with underwater combat being glitchy as hell, like the mosnters resetting, the camera glitching etc.

I also made the mistake of suggesting that the Trading Post issues might have been a little forseeable given that they cropped up early and often in the betas. That didn't go over well.

My favorite was the "Well I didn't have any problems!!!" defense. During the Karka event(the thing that actually DID put me over the top and leave this game) where everyone and their mother was getting lagged to hell. Literally dozens of people in map chat, guild chat, vent, my friends list, all having the same problem. Yet there was one guy playing that card and blaming everyone else's computers.

tl;dr It didn't reflect most people I met,  and they were hardly the only/major reason I left, but these people were just....eugh. I'll be honest and say that as an avid GW1 player, there were so many things in GW2 that either fell short, were obvious betas(a billion bugs from the first beta that I reported still persisted a month later), or were straight up not true(guesting will be a launch feature!!!) that after a few months I felt like it was not a particularly good game as a whole, accepted I didn't like it, and moved on and just occasionally poke my head in here. However, I can still respect those who think it's an awesome game and love it and I am not referring to them all as one group. I and many others I know had ideas that could have significantly improved things, but the hatedom made it not worth bothering. There's a difference between "fan" and "fanboy".

#16 dss_live

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:52 PM

View PostMhenlo, on 27 June 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

Ever wonder why that is? Maybe people are upset that the game isn't what was promised or isn't close to its predecessor and feel the need to say something.

I think the saying goes, "Where there is smoke, there is fire."

To be fair, they did constantly mention that guild wars 2 would be a different game than guild wars 1 so the whole 'not close to its predecessor' thing is a bit out there as an argument. Gw1 was far different than gw2 is now and in some ways defiantely better, but that didn't mean i was disappointed with gw2 coze i knew they were gonna be different games to begin with, as was said.

#17 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:39 PM

View Postdss_live, on 01 July 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

To be fair, they did constantly mention that guild wars 2 would be a different game than guild wars 1 so the whole 'not close to its predecessor' thing is a bit out there as an argument. Gw1 was far different than gw2 is now and in some ways defiantely better, but that didn't mean i was disappointed with gw2 coze i knew they were gonna be different games to begin with, as was said.


Well, the Manifesto was all about how GW2 takes everything you love about GW1 and that seemed to be their mantra for the duration of the pre-release. I think it was only a few months ago that Colin actually said plainly that GW2 isn't supposed to be like GW1 and if players want to play GW1 they should play GW1.

Yes, we absolutely knew that the game would be different, but as the whole power creep fiasco shows, there really were was no reason to think it would be THIS different.

#18 dss_live

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:02 PM

View PostRitualist, on 01 July 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

Well, the Manifesto was all about how GW2 takes everything you love about GW1 and that seemed to be their mantra for the duration of the pre-release. I think it was only a few months ago that Colin actually said plainly that GW2 isn't supposed to be like GW1 and if players want to play GW1 they should play GW1.

Yes, we absolutely knew that the game would be different, but as the whole power creep fiasco shows, there really were was no reason to think it would be THIS different.

Well, there is a reason why i didn't bolded the first part in Mhenlo's post where he stated that the game isn't what they promised. I think the powercreep is more part of that, really. They said there would be cosmetic progression, yet there is none, we did get (and will be finished in the future when weps/armor is introduced) a slight vertical progression (the power creep) which could be seen as breaking promises.

But i remember reading well before (atleast a few months) realease that gw2 would be a different game than gw1. I do get that the manifesto stating "we'll take everythign you love from gw1" could have confused ppl , but then it comes to say that what do they think ppl love from gw1? Becoze it wouldn't be THAT odd to me that they were out of touch with everything at that point alrdy. +In their eyes they took what they loved about it, but in the eyes of others, its not really like that.

#19 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:43 PM

View Postdss_live, on 01 July 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Well, there is a reason why i didn't bolded the first part in Mhenlo's post where he stated that the game isn't what they promised. I think the powercreep is more part of that, really. They said there would be cosmetic progression, yet there is none, we did get (and will be finished in the future when weps/armor is introduced) a slight vertical progression (the power creep) which could be seen as breaking promises.

But i remember reading well before (atleast a few months) realease that gw2 would be a different game than gw1. I do get that the manifesto stating "we'll take everythign you love from gw1" could have confused ppl , but then it comes to say that what do they think ppl love from gw1? Becoze it wouldn't be THAT odd to me that they were out of touch with everything at that point alrdy. +In their eyes they took what they loved about it, but in the eyes of others, its not really like that.

I could have also pointed out the whole damage/control/support thing to showcase that you simply can not blame the players. The information we were given is simply not in touch with the game we got. Hell, one could also point out the whole "when it's ready" as another one of the issues that showcases how the game really isn't what we were told it would be.
And then you combine that with A.Net's views on how different GW2 will be from GW1 (which, as I said, really gave no indication that it's going to be THIS different) and it should absolutely be understandable that players feel that they didn't get what was said we would.

I think the idea that GW2 isn't like GW1 isn't the best argument because, as you pointed out, we knew that it would be different, but it certainly has some validity.

#20 dss_live

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:40 PM

View PostRitualist, on 01 July 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

I could have also pointed out the whole damage/control/support thing to showcase that you simply can not blame the players. The information we were given is simply not in touch with the game we got. Hell, one could also point out the whole "when it's ready" as another one of the issues that showcases how the game really isn't what we were told it would be.
And then you combine that with A.Net's views on how different GW2 will be from GW1 (which, as I said, really gave no indication that it's going to be THIS different) and it should absolutely be understandable that players feel that they didn't get what was said we would.

I think the idea that GW2 isn't like GW1 isn't the best argument because, as you pointed out, we knew that it would be different, but it certainly has some validity.

I don't disagree with the first part, they said one thing and they delivered another. Thats not what i'm disputing. It's idea that it was expected to be like guild wars 1 that i'm disputing. The reason why it doesn't have much validity for me is that it was pointed out to be different, the idea of exaclty HOW different it would become comes down to how the person themself sees it for themself.  

We knew it was going to be different, we were told so, so from that point of view you cannot truly hold it being different from the original above its head as a negativ. Ofcourse people are gonna make their own views and expectations, partly based on the things they said they'd do (cosmetic progression, support/control/damage trio), but your own expectations don't really form a good argument. It's perfectly fine to say it didn't fit your expectation so you don't play it anymore (don't know if you do or not, besides the point too :P) So when it comes down to people complaining that its TOO different it doesn't really hold ground. That doesn't mean the thing being complained about shouldn't be complained about, but that  it should be talked as is, not as a thing different than gw1. Bad idea's usually have more things to be talked about than jsut "being different then the predeccesor".

#21 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:12 PM

View Postdss_live, on 01 July 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

I don't disagree with the first part, they said one thing and they delivered another. Thats not what i'm disputing. It's idea that it was expected to be like guild wars 1 that i'm disputing. The reason why it doesn't have much validity for me is that it was pointed out to be different, the idea of exaclty HOW different it would become comes down to how the person themself sees it for themself.  

We knew it was going to be different, we were told so, so from that point of view you cannot truly hold it being different from the original above its head as a negativ. Ofcourse people are gonna make their own views and expectations, partly based on the things they said they'd do (cosmetic progression, support/control/damage trio), but your own expectations don't really form a good argument. It's perfectly fine to say it didn't fit your expectation so you don't play it anymore (don't know if you do or not, besides the point too :P) So when it comes down to people complaining that its TOO different it doesn't really hold ground. That doesn't mean the thing being complained about shouldn't be complained about, but that  it should be talked as is, not as a thing different than gw1. Bad idea's usually have more things to be talked about than jsut "being different then the predeccesor".

As I said, not only are we talking about a sequel, we are also talking about a game that was advertised as being similar to the predecessor. With that in mind, it really shouldn't be unreasonable to expect that we err on the side similarity: I think it was absolutely more reasonable to expect that the game will be more similar to GW1 than it was to expect that the game will not be similar to GW1.
And I think that the fact that A.Net recently came out and, as I said, quite strongly emphasised that GW2 is different than GW1, supports that idea: unless stated otherwise, players were expected to find more similarities than differences. This also ties in with the idea that A.Net was quite vocal about select differences between GW1 and GW2 during development, and how players could reasonably expect that the things that they didn't specifically point out could fall under the idea of "transferring over what we love from GW1 to GW2".


(But, as I said, as a general rule I agree with the idea of what you are saying: I think that "not like GW1" is too much of a broad argument and for the sake of a decent discussion, being more specific is absolutely better. Also, with that in mind, I think we could end up with a fairly interesting discussion if someone were to make a new thread and ask the community what we understood under the term "everything you love about GW1". Plus it would probably be much less off-topic. ^^)

#22 Cures

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:37 PM

you, like many others, are mixing up two completely different things. what the "community" wants is in no way relevant, nor good for a good game. asking ANET to "listen to the community" is asking them to throw their gem of a game to the feet of a howling crowd. why would you ask for such a thing? listening to a community means listening to a loud part of the tiny fraction of vocal players. no good developer does it.

as a second part: pls log in and play before starting to discuss "changed traits" you got no idea of.

#23 dss_live

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:16 PM

View PostCures, on 01 July 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

you, like many others, are mixing up two completely different things. what the "community" wants is in no way relevant, nor good for a good game. asking ANET to "listen to the community" is asking them to throw their gem of a game to the feet of a howling crowd. why would you ask for such a thing? listening to a community means listening to a loud part of the tiny fraction of vocal players. no good developer does it.

as a second part: pls log in and play before starting to discuss "changed traits" you got no idea of.

I doubt that when people ask anet to listen to the community ppl mean they ask for the devs to jsut blindly do anything random people say. What people mean when they say (or atleast thats always what i thought they ment) is that they should look at the things people talk about. See a good idea? don't ignore it. See a valid criticism made by a random person? look into it.

Guilds have been asking for alliences , iirc , why hasn't that been brought up yet? It's something the community wants, would be great for guilds in general and is all in all a great idea.  People complain about new armors being solely cashshop, why not introduce some skins in, you know, a way in which you can play the actual game to get said armor. All which is valid criticism about what the game lacks being voalised by the community.

in short, when ppl say "they should listen to the community" they don't mean just take everything a random person said without any thought and put it in.

View PostRitualist, on 01 July 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

As I said, not only are we talking about a sequel, we are also talking about a game that was advertised as being similar to the predecessor. With that in mind, it really shouldn't be unreasonable to expect that we err on the side similarity: I think it was absolutely more reasonable to expect that the game will be more similar to GW1 than it was to expect that the game will not be similar to GW1.
And I think that the fact that A.Net recently came out and, as I said, quite strongly emphasised that GW2 is different than GW1, supports that idea: unless stated otherwise, players were expected to find more similarities than differences. This also ties in with the idea that A.Net was quite vocal about select differences between GW1 and GW2 during development, and how players could reasonably expect that the things that they didn't specifically point out could fall under the idea of "transferring over what we love from GW1 to GW2".


(But, as I said, as a general rule I agree with the idea of what you are saying: I think that "not like GW1" is too much of a broad argument and for the sake of a decent discussion, being more specific is absolutely better. Also, with that in mind, I think we could end up with a fairly interesting discussion if someone were to make a new thread and ask the community what we understood under the term "everything you love about GW1". Plus it would probably be much less off-topic. ^^)

I wasn't following gw2 marketing from the very beginning, maybe a year max, maybe 2 (bit foggy) so it could be that they said at some point that it was advertised to be similar to its predecessor, idk. If that was the case than yes you are right.

( Such a thread would be very interesting indeed :))

Edited by dss_live, 01 July 2013 - 11:18 PM.


#24 Mhenlo

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:11 AM

I didn't realize that a game called Guild Wars 2 wouldn't be anything like, nor incorporate anything from, the original. And, when I mean incorporate, I mean the things that were almost universally heralded as extraordinary parts of the original game that made it why it was so good.

Is that too much to ask, that one picks up on the good things the previous one did? I didn't realize that was a point worth arguing. If they wanted to make a new game completely unlike the last, they should have chose a new name. I, like I am sure many others did, bought the game thinking it couldn't have been that much of change from Guild Wars 1; at least not in the ways that made Guild Wars 1 really really fun.

So, yes, the game is different and I think it is totally reasonable to expect that they failed to live up to the standard that Guild Wars 1 left us, regardless of the changes or differences. If you want to talk objectively about things that make games good, then you would be hard pressed to find things that make Guild Wars 2 better than Guild Wars 1.

Not only that, but it's not like my opinion is some singular opinion that has no merit. The entire PvP community from Guild Wars 1 has by and large rejected Guild Wars 2. In fact, most Guild Wars 1 players (especially those from Prophecies) have rejected the changes made to Guild Wars 2. I fail to see how a community that is asking for something close to what we had in a game that was one of the most popular MMO-style games ever made can be wrong about what they want or what is good for a game. You can certainly argue the point that GW2 was designed to be bigger than GW1. So far, however, that reality has fallen flat on its face and there is a very good change GW2 never sees more than 4 million copies sold, not to mention the 6.5 million its predecessor sold.

Edited by Mhenlo, 02 July 2013 - 12:19 AM.


#25 dss_live

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:06 AM

View PostMhenlo, on 02 July 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

I didn't realize that a game called Guild Wars 2 wouldn't be anything like, nor incorporate anything from, the original. And, when I mean incorporate, I mean the things that were almost universally heralded as extraordinary parts of the original game that made it why it was so good.

Is that too much to ask, that one picks up on the good things the previous one did? I didn't realize that was a point worth arguing. If they wanted to make a new game completely unlike the last, they should have chose a new name. I, like I am sure many others did, bought the game thinking it couldn't have been that much of change from Guild Wars 1; at least not in the ways that made Guild Wars 1 really really fun.

So, yes, the game is different and I think it is totally reasonable to expect that they failed to live up to the standard that Guild Wars 1 left us, regardless of the changes or differences. If you want to talk objectively about things that make games good, then you would be hard pressed to find things that make Guild Wars 2 better than Guild Wars 1.

Not only that, but it's not like my opinion is some singular opinion that has no merit. The entire PvP community from Guild Wars 1 has by and large rejected Guild Wars 2. In fact, most Guild Wars 1 players (especially those from Prophecies) have rejected the changes made to Guild Wars 2. I fail to see how a community that is asking for something close to what we had in a game that was one of the most popular MMO-style games ever made can be wrong about what they want or what is good for a game. You can certainly argue the point that GW2 was designed to be bigger than GW1. So far, however, that reality has fallen flat on its face and there is a very good change GW2 never sees more than 4 million copies sold, not to mention the 6.5 million its predecessor sold.

1st&2nd paragraph: I never stated that that wouldn't be a natural assumption for those that didn't follow gw2 closely. And no its not too much to ask for the good things in guild wars 1 to be brought over to guild wars 2. That's not the point that i'm arguing. I'm arguing over the simple line that people use regularly when they talk about "tehy promised this and we got that".  The fact that it isn't like its predecessor isn't a completely valid argument (it has some points, some good things not being brought over) but when the developers have stated in interviews and such that guild wars 2 is a different game than guild wars 1 it doesn't hold ground that much.  (btw the name was chosen becoze they were continuing on the lore not the whole game itself, whether that's a good or bad choice isn't really worth discussing, coze it is what it is) The part where you bought it thinking it was gonna be like gw1, you can't blame the developers because you didn't look into the game you bought.

3rd: I'm not gonna argue with the fact that Gw1 was a better game than gw2 becoze i agree with it a bit. Never said that guild wars 2 was somehow better. I simply pointed out that it was stated before release that the games wouldn't be similar to each other and name was only a lore continuation. Guild wars 2 was made to be what they couldn't do with guild wars 1.

4th: Never said your opinion had no merit, and yes pvp isn't the most popular in gw2. Guildwars 1 had a huge pvp crowd but pvp was always seen as the thing you do when you reach max lvl. And once again asking for something similar was never the debate, it was specifically that line which makes it sound like they lied to us telling how alike the games were gonna be when they didn't, they told us straight up, this is gonna be a different game than gw1.  (jsut a technicall not, gw1 wasn't an mmo, it was a corpg :)). And no, gw2 wasn't designed to be bigger than guild wars 1. It was made to be different than guild wars 1, to do the things they never could with guild wars 1, how well that worked out , again, isn't the debate.

in short: It's not that i disagree with you wanting things that made guildwars 1 great to be in gw2 too, what i do disagree on is the use of the argument "its not like its predeccessor" since they have stated before launch that the games wouldn't be the same. It certainly imaginable to assume that , due to the name sounding more like a sequal than a game of its own, it would be the same. But then the argument isn't about what anet did, its what you didn't, that's look at the game and what it is. It's not like they were gonna put a massive headline on the box  saying "THIS GAME IS DIFFERENT THAN GUILD WARS 1" . That's what interviews are for.

#26 Mhenlo

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:39 AM

I agree with a lot of what you said DSS. Keep in mind my original post you quoted was about the reasons people have problems with GW2. Regardless of what the developers said, I think it is reasonable for GW1 players to be disappointed with GW2. That's really all I was trying to get at in that statement.

#27 dss_live

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:59 AM

View PostMhenlo, on 02 July 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

I agree with a lot of what you said DSS. Keep in mind my original post you quoted was about the reasons people have problems with GW2. Regardless of what the developers said, I think it is reasonable for GW1 players to be disappointed with GW2. That's really all I was trying to get at in that statement.

I probably should have looked at the context more, little flaw i tend to have :P But I completely agree with you in that. Having played gw1 for years i can't help but miss quite a number of things from the game. Think my guildies are even tired of me constantly talking about some feature from gw1 that would totally rule in gw2 :)

Edited by dss_live, 02 July 2013 - 02:05 AM.


#28 Mhenlo

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 02:19 AM

View Postdss_live, on 02 July 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

I probably should have looked at the context more, little flaw i tend to have :P But I completely agree with you in that. Having played gw1 for years i can't help but miss quite a number of things from the game. Think my guildies are even tired of me constantly talking about some feature from gw1 that would totally rule in gw2 :)

Hehe. Yea, I don't hate GW2. The open world is fun to explore solo and with some friends. It just doesn't have the kind of depth that GW1 had in anything I can find. It is a reasonably fun game. I just don't think it deserves the name "Guild Wars".

Edited by Mhenlo, 02 July 2013 - 02:22 AM.


#29 jayson

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:15 AM

This is for anyone who has the answer.

If a person who plays GW2 wanted to entice a GW player to buy the new game, exactly what features or mechanics could they talk about to get them to buy? What are the best parts of GW now in GW2?

Edited by jayson, 02 July 2013 - 03:16 AM.


#30 Mhenlo

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:44 AM

View Postjayson, on 02 July 2013 - 03:15 AM, said:

This is for anyone who has the answer.

If a person who plays GW2 wanted to entice a GW player to buy the new game, exactly what features or mechanics could they talk about to get them to buy? What are the best parts of GW now in GW2?

The only thing I can think of is the lore, but I don't even feel like the lore from GW1 is even a big part of GW2. It has been Disney-fied into a bubble gum grade school world of plush Quaggan backpacks and glittery wings.

I honestly can't think of anything else that resembles Guild Wars in the game. Even the terrain is vastly different. I can't even tell I am in the same places from GW1 other than the name says I am.




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