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Neko's Comprehensive Guide to the Dungeon Elementalist

elementalist dagger scepter focus lightning hammer dps support

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#31 gessen

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:36 PM

Scepter-Focus-Hammer. Use Scepter ranged attacks on the Shaman and Hammer on the adds.


Doesn't dagger have better dps and is less clunky than scepter?

Edited by gessen, 05 July 2013 - 08:36 PM.

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#32 JNeko

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:56 PM


Doesn't dagger have better dps and is less clunky than scepter?


You're going to want a ranged weapon on the Legendary Imbued Shaman. It was one of the few bosses where you need the flexibility to go in and out of melee range.

Edited by JNeko, 05 July 2013 - 08:56 PM.

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#33 gessen

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:20 PM

You're going to want a ranged weapon on the Legendary Imbued S[size=4]haman. It was one of the few bosses where you need the flexibility to go in and out of melee range.


Dagger has 300-600 range, that's hardly melee and it's still better than scepter whose autoattacks are worse than even vapor blade. Only reason why you would need flexibilty is luring boss to proper spot before his transition which isn't a problem with melee weapons and with proper positioning.
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#34 JNeko

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:14 PM

Dagger has 300-600 range, that's hardly melee and it's still better than scepter whose autoattacks are worse than even vapor blade. Only reason why you would need flexibilty is luring boss to proper spot before his transition which isn't a problem with melee weapons and with proper positioning.


Then I guess use Dagger.
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#35 XRay

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 12:48 PM

Dagger has 300-600 range, that's hardly melee and it's still better than scepter whose autoattacks are worse than even vapor blade. Only reason why you would need flexibilty is luring boss to proper spot before his transition which isn't a problem with melee weapons and with proper positioning.


why do you even ask anything when you think you know better? lawl
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#36 gessen

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:39 PM

why do you even ask anything when you think you know better? lawl


I asked about d/f and staff. Please read whole thing, not just one part.
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#37 XRay

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 09:33 PM

I'm too stupid and drunk to be able to comprehend everything. -.-'
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#38 Reaper3354

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:22 AM

Doesn't dagger have better dps and is less clunky than scepter?



Seems to me you only asked about dagger there...



Dagger has 300-600 range, that's hardly melee and it's still better than scepter whose autoattacks are worse than even vapor blade. Only reason why you would need flexibilty is luring boss to proper spot before his transition which isn't a problem with melee weapons and with proper positioning.



And not once in any of your replies did you even mention speaking about focus, or staff. So the question still stands, why ask a question you clearly think you have an answer to?



Back on Topic: Been using your build on my own Ele, Neko, but I have the problem of not being able to really grasp or like Dagger/Anything, rather partial to my Staff really. And I've tried, I really have, just can't get into the 'groove' as it were.


So, are there any recommendations you might be able/willing to provide, or perhaps some links that might help someone like me? (That being, new to Elementalists in GW2)

Edited by Reaper3354, 09 July 2013 - 06:25 AM.

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#39 Khadroth

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:57 PM

Back on Topic: Been using your build on my own Ele, Neko, but I have the problem of not being able to really grasp or like Dagger/Anything, rather partial to my Staff really. And I've tried, I really have, just can't get into the 'groove' as it were.


So, are there any recommendations you might be able/willing to provide, or perhaps some links that might help someone like me? (That being, new to Elementalists in GW2)


I personally didn't like the Dagger playstyle until I started using the bunker builds (x/x/x/30/30). It may have lost about 5% dmg with the bountiful power nerf in the last patch, but it's still a very strong and resilient spec. Between 30 points in Water and Evasive Arcana Water dodging you'll have enough healing and condition removal to both keep yourself and your party alive, allowing you to learn the basics to meleeing with daggers. The spec isn't restricted to just daggers either, and can be very good with a staff (quite interesting with aura sharing too).

If you're sold on the staff, try to make sure to learn the In's and Out's of combo fields. I find they can make all the difference, if you know your blast finishers. Eruption and Evasive Arcana in earth are the ones with some really interesting applications as they can be preplaced and triggered after laying a field, respectively. Staff is actually the best ele weapon for crowd control, and can keep you and your group out of a sticky situations with it's longer range, extra dodge roll, and reflect.
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#40 JNeko

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 04:06 PM

I personally didn't like the Dagger playstyle until I started using the bunker builds (x/x/x/30/30). It may have lost about 5% dmg with the bountiful power nerf in the last patch, but it's still a very strong and resilient spec. Between 30 points in Water and Evasive Arcana Water dodging you'll have enough healing and condition removal to both keep yourself and your party alive, allowing you to learn the basics to meleeing with daggers. The spec isn't restricted to just daggers either, and can be very good with a staff (quite interesting with aura sharing too).

If you're sold on the staff, try to make sure to learn the In's and Out's of combo fields. I find they can make all the difference, if you know your blast finishers. Eruption and Evasive Arcana in earth are the ones with some really interesting applications as they can be preplaced and triggered after laying a field, respectively. Staff is actually the best ele weapon for crowd control, and can keep you and your group out of a sticky situations with it's longer range, extra dodge roll, and reflect.


I agree with basically all of this. My only thing I'd say is that I love staff too (I use it in WvW because I get to feel like a real wizard raining meteors on enemy zergs), but that in my opinion, it lacks the damage to be all that useful in a dungeon enviornment, hence why I haven't included a staff build on my list.

The Auramancer (0/10/0/30/30 with aura sharing) really should be the first build players go for if they're new to the style of Dagger/X Eles. It is by far the most instructive of all of the builds placed on here.

If you find it clunky to use, use Double Daggers instead of Dagger Focus, since Offhand Dagger feels way nicer.

To be quite honest, I include the Auramancer there because it will help a person in their entire Ele career (PvP, WvW, open-world PvE roaming). It's the most forgiving playstyle for an Elementalist, and many really good Eles got their start and learned to play other builds of the Ele by first spending time with Auramancy. Even if it does lack great damage, don't let it bug you. It certainly does more than Staff, and we must take small steps before we can play truly glassy builds, especially when it comes to a class like the Elementalist.

I hope that helps! Feel free to talk to me too if you ever want help.

So staff is dead for PvE dungeons or what? I like melee with my Ele for solo play but don't like it in dungeons especially with PUGs. Imho all the sliding and jumping is too chaotic in tight spaces. Scepter is nice but again you mainly use the dagger abilities which are melee.

Any suggestions for good staff builds post patch?


Simply put, Staff lacks the DPS to really be competitive in a dungeon enviornment. Even the Auramancer probably has too little DPS, but I include it for the sake of giving players an easy spec that can still play full Berserker that will teach them how to get used to the class before moving onto something else.
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#41 gessen

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:28 PM

Seems to me you only asked about dagger there...

And not once in any of your replies did you even mention speaking about focus, or staff. So the question still stands, why ask a question you clearly think you have an answer to?


I asked about mainhand dagger (since focus is almost always taken for grawls if not for every fractal) and staff. You're another person wondering about that. I just don't think scepter is good enough. I guess it's much less risky but I've been able to melee this boss at 79 fractal.
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#42 rotsono

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:45 PM

Just a quick Question what build would you recommend for WvW?And is zerker armor still good for fighting in a zerg?I dont roam or run solo only in a zerg or larger grps. :D
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#43 Khadroth

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:33 PM

If you're zerging then run staff/zerker. Roaming would probably be scepter/dagger (some of those fresh air roaming vids have scary good burst). Reasoning being that staff is the best support/control weapon, and also the best aoe weapon an ele has. This enables you to pressure entire enemy zergs, clear keep walls if you do your aoe rotation right, lay down an unparalleled amount of combo fields, have a nice big water field to heal allies, and of course tag the maximum number of enemies for kill credit.

I personally would run with ether renewal (you need that condition removal and short cooldown in WvW), arcane wave (aoe dmg, reasonable cooldown, and blast finisher all in one), glyph of storms (widely overlooked by staff builds, its great especially in earth attunement since it repetedly applies blindness, and is of course another powerful aoe spell at your disposal), and then either arcane blast for a ranged auto-crit projectile finisher, or a defensive cantrip for survival/escape when needed. Elite is FGS, the glyph elemental just doesn't live long enough or distract enough even as earth. FGS will provide you with great dmg and can be used as an escape mechanic with it's 3 and 4 abilities.

Almost any spec "works" with Staff. Personally in a zerg you can get away with full Fire and Air, but 30 in air isn't really worth it unless going for fresh air (which is worthless on staff). 30/25/0/15/0 would be decent for dmg, and still keep healing ripple for nice healing on water swap. 30/20/0/10/10 would cost you healing ripple but allow you to pick up elemental atunement for boons on attunement swap. You could always go the classic 30/x/x/x/30 if you like evasive arcana too (last 10 points used at your leisure but probably in air for bolt to the heart or water for vital striking).
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#44 JNeko

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:35 PM

Just a quick Question what build would you recommend for WvW?And is zerker armor still good for fighting in a zerg?I dont roam or run solo only in a zerg or larger grps. :D


For a large zerg play, I think something like Staff, and 0/10/0/30/30 should be good. Take Air VI, Water III V XI, Arcana V VI XI. That maximizes AoE condition removal, and you basically remove conditions with Healing Rain and by attuning to Water. Then you use AoE CC from Air 5, Water 4, and Earth 4 and 5. Your gear should probably be something survivable (Soldiers, Knights, etc), but since you're in the safety of a zerg, you can probably get away with Berserker trinkets. I know some people (probably not a good idea) who go full Berserker with Staff and rely on the safety of a zerg to keep themselves safe. That depends on how protective your zergs really are, though, and how good or bad your enemy servers are at getting to your zerg's backline.

Either way, though, I am mainly a PvE player and not a WvW or PvP player. I can try to give advice for those formats, but it won't be like the advice I can give people in PvE Dungeons and Fractals.

Edited by JNeko, 26 July 2013 - 05:36 PM.

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#45 rotsono

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:56 PM

For a large zerg play, I think something like Staff, and 0/10/0/30/30 should be good. Take Air VI, Water III V XI, Arcana V VI XI. That maximizes AoE condition removal, and you basically remove conditions with Healing Rain and by attuning to Water. Then you use AoE CC from Air 5, Water 4, and Earth 4 and 5. Your gear should probably be something survivable (Soldiers, Knights, etc), but since you're in the safety of a zerg, you can probably get away with Berserker trinkets. I know some people (probably not a good idea) who go full Berserker with Staff and rely on the safety of a zerg to keep themselves safe. That depends on how protective your zergs really are, though, and how good or bad your enemy servers are at getting to your zerg's backline.

Either way, though, I am mainly a PvE player and not a WvW or PvP player. I can try to give advice for those formats, but it won't be like the advice I can give people in PvE Dungeons and Fractals.


Thanks a lot. :D
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#46 JNeko

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 12:53 AM

Thanks a lot. :D


No problem. As I said, though, I am not a WvW expert, so you should probably look elsewhere for some WvW advice. I'm here for Dungeons/Fractals.
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#47 rotsono

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 01:43 AM

No problem. As I said, though, I am not a WvW expert, so you should probably look elsewhere for some WvW advice. I'm here for Dungeons/Fractals.


Im just looking for some advice.Im glad for every tip. :)
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#48 Varcos

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 04:27 AM

Awesome Guide. You helped me to realize how much of a n00b I have been all this time. :)

Two questions though:

1. Why does the hyperlinks to each build not work?

2. When you man beserker gear does that mean the crafted beserker gear like this?

http://www.gw2armor....ght/display.php

Thanks.
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#49 Khadroth

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 02:01 PM

Awesome Guide. You helped me to realize how much of a n00b I have been all this time. :)

Two questions though:

1. Why does the hyperlinks to each build not work?

2. When you man beserker gear does that mean the crafted beserker gear like this?

http://www.gw2armor....ght/display.php

Thanks.


As long as it's exotic, berserker gear (crafted, looted, or otherwise acquired) will all have the same stat levels. So yes, crafted is fine.
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#50 JNeko

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 02:29 PM

The build links work for me.


Awesome Guide. You helped me to realize how much of a n00b I have been all this time. :)

Two questions though:

1. Why does the hyperlinks to each build not work?

2. When you man beserker gear does that mean the crafted beserker gear like this?

http://www.gw2armor....ght/display.php

Thanks.


The build links work for me. Try copying the URLs and pasting them, or trying them in a different browser.
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#51 Varcos

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 11:14 PM

The build links work for me. [size=4]

The build links work for me. Try copying the URLs and pasting them, or trying them in a different browser.


It works now go figure. :) Do you know where I can find a breakdown of the different types of gear and what each is used for ? Beserker, etc?
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#52 JNeko

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 11:34 PM

Look up "Item Nomenclature" on the Wiki.

For PvE, go Berserker everything, which is Power/Precision/Critical Damage.
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#53 Khadroth

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 06:04 PM

So I've been running 30/10/10/20/0 lately due to Nike's suggestion. The constant 10% dmg from stone splinters seems to completely outweigh the extra 20% crit dmg (assuming 10 for Arcane Lightning despite the fact that it's not up all the time) and 4% crit chance from going 10 more in Air with most of my groups, even without the consideration of what extra toughness does for your survivability. It's still very group dependant though and if I'm the only one in melee then I wind up having to use endurance regen food to stay up, as no amount of lifesteal is going to power me through face tanking mobs. I do like the fact though that without arcane lightning I don't feel pidgeon-holed into taking 2 arcane slot skills, which lets me take armor of earth and arcane shield for soaking.
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#54 JNeko

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 08:01 PM

So I've been running 30/10/10/20/0 lately due to Nike's suggestion. The constant 10% dmg from stone splinters seems to completely outweigh the extra 20% crit dmg (assuming 10 for Arcane Lightning despite the fact that it's not up all the time) and 4% crit chance from going 10 more in Air with most of my groups, even without the consideration of what extra toughness does for your survivability. It's still very group dependant though and if I'm the only one in melee then I wind up having to use endurance regen food to stay up, as no amount of lifesteal is going to power me through face tanking mobs. I do like the fact though that without arcane lightning I don't feel pidgeon-holed into taking 2 arcane slot skills, which lets me take armor of earth and arcane shield for soaking.


I actually have meant to change the pure LH build I placed here. This was before the Stone Splinters update. 30/10/10/20/0 is in fact probably the most optimal DPS Ele. I've just been too lazy to change it. :X
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#55 Hamartia

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 09:50 PM

So I've been running 30/10/10/20/0 lately due to Nike's suggestion. The constant 10% dmg from stone splinters seems to completely outweigh the extra 20% crit dmg (assuming 10 for Arcane Lightning despite the fact that it's not up all the time) and 4% crit chance from going 10 more in Air with most of my groups, even without the consideration of what extra toughness does for your survivability. It's still very group dependant though and if I'm the only one in melee then I wind up having to use endurance regen food to stay up, as no amount of lifesteal is going to power me through face tanking mobs. I do like the fact though that without arcane lightning I don't feel pidgeon-holed into taking 2 arcane slot skills, which lets me take armor of earth and arcane shield for soaking.


I'd be interested in seeing the math behind this. I didn't do it myself, but on Reddit someone did the math to show that 20 air came out ahead of taking a 10% damage trait and I have been treating that as accurate information.
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#56 Brizna

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:17 AM

Always Critical Damage. Berserker = Power/Precision/Critical Damage

Don't take Condition Damage on an Ele. It's not strong enough right now to compete in PvE (and generally regarded as inferior to direct damage in PvP, for specifically the Elementalist).


To be honest I've never been truly convinced about that mantra. DPS is called dpS for three reassons, on of them being per second. casting churning earth to apply 8 bleeds that deal 50 dmg/sec doesn't add much to the per second part, doing so with 160+ dmg/sec does actually build up to some very decent DPS in most scenarios, since the mantra "condition damage sucks" is so extended (and almost for all professions in PvE actually) almost no one bothers with bleeds, even in PUGs I rarely see 25 bleeds in someone, though when it happens it does suck and ruins the DPS.

Neko says to go berserker because elementalists are so squishy it takes too tough/vit much to actually survive a boss attacks, that is only true under the "condition dmg sucks" mantra. If that's the case your dmg is mostly direct, for direct damage you need it all: power to have a high base dmg, crit change to multiply that base often, and crit damage to increase the multiplier.

But when you go condition damage you can forego crit dmg and use precission only moderately leaving you with only two stats to worry dmg-wise: power and condition dmg. While Those two don't have the great sinergy power, prec, crit.dmg do they do leave yourself more freedom in chosing the third stat (toughness/vitality) and last but not least as a condition dmg spec you are most likely siting with 30 point on earth geting 300 toughness. Nope you don't get one shoted 99% of the time, your zerkers companions are though :P . And as Neko admited to begin with the base dmg of ele skills isn't that great to begin with, given that: is it really worth to invest it all in increasing those pitifull damage bases? The answers is still yes I guess since everyone disagrees with me lol.

But if you want tankiness in your ele, direct damage sucks so I would advise condition damage to newbies until they get to know the bosses attacks and can actually dodge and use arcane shield when you need to and not waste your only and precious survival tools under a zerker spec.
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#57 Khadroth

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 01:52 PM

I'd be interested in seeing the math behind this. I didn't do it myself, but on Reddit someone did the math to show that 20 air came out ahead of taking a 10% damage trait and I have been treating that as accurate information.


Short Version: Depends on crit chance.

Long Version: Basically at best you're looking at 77% uptime on Arcane Lightning, and that's with taking Arcane Wave and Shield as your slots (I think not taking shield as a hammer spec is suicidal, but if you can make it work without it you could improve the uptime by using ArBlast instead). Though again this assumes you're using shield immediately except when it will overlap, rather than as a defensive tool of any kind. Normally utilizing shield will drop it to about 60% uptime depending on length of the fight. Only taking wave would reduce it to 50%, and only taking shield to 20%. This means on average your crit dmg bonus from arcane lightning would be 7.7%, 6%, 5%, and 2% respectively.

The way damage calculation works, the closer you are to 100% crit chance the more your crit dmg modifier becomes an actual dmg modifier. I.e. at 100% crit chance, 10% extra crit dmg and 10% extra dmg are the same. Similarly though that's what makes direct dmg modifiers so strong, they are independant of crit chance and thus always apply to your base dmg (assuming they don't require some other condition to be met, like vital striking). Thus a dmg modifier is always an increase to your crit dmg, but not necessarily vice versa due to crit chance being a factor.

Assuming 7.7% from AL, 10% from the air points, and 4% extra chance I have it coming out ahead at about a 70% crit chance (not bad) in my very rough calculations. The deal here is they're very rough calculations and operate in a vacuum (i.e. I assume perfection). That's simply never the case, and even operating under those conditions the spec is not pulling ahead much, to the point that at 100% crit chance the direct dmg actually catches back up (it's only 1.2% behind) due to being unable to realize the benefit of the extra precision (it would logically peak around 96% crit chance then).

So again, I'd be willing to say that not having to manage AL at all, freeing up your slot skills, giving you a more versatile trait slot, and more toughness (which is kind of a double edged sword) is better. Though if you could provide the reddit link, I'd be interested to see their math as well.

To be honest I've never been truly convinced about that mantra. DPS is called dpS for three reassons, on of them being per second. casting churning earth to apply 8 bleeds that deal 50 dmg/sec doesn't add much to the per second part, doing so with 160+ dmg/sec does actually build up to some very decent DPS in most scenarios, since the mantra "condition damage sucks" is so extended (and almost for all professions in PvE actually) almost no one bothers with bleeds, even in PUGs I rarely see 25 bleeds in someone, though when it happens it does suck and ruins the DPS.

Neko says to go berserker because elementalists are so squishy it takes too tough/vit much to actually survive a boss attacks, that is only true under the "condition dmg sucks" mantra. If that's the case your dmg is mostly direct, for direct damage you need it all: power to have a high base dmg, crit change to multiply that base often, and crit damage to increase the multiplier.

But when you go condition damage you can forego crit dmg and use precission only moderately leaving you with only two stats to worry dmg-wise: power and condition dmg. While Those two don't have the great sinergy power, prec, crit.dmg do they do leave yourself more freedom in chosing the third stat (toughness/vitality) and last but not least as a condition dmg spec you are most likely siting with 30 point on earth geting 300 toughness. Nope you don't get one shoted 99% of the time, your zerkers companions are though :P . And as Neko admited to begin with the base dmg of ele skills isn't that great to begin with, given that: is it really worth to invest it all in increasing those pitifull damage bases? The answers is still yes I guess since everyone disagrees with me lol.

But if you want tankiness in your ele, direct damage sucks so I would advise condition damage to newbies until they get to know the bosses attacks and can actually dodge and use arcane shield when you need to and not waste your only and precious survival tools under a zerker spec.


The mantra basically works like this, you never are penalized for taking zerker stats (unless you hit crit cap but thats not feasible 99% of the time). Meanwhile I see bleed caps hit fairly often depending on group makeup. Honestly you're not casting churning earth for the bleeds anyways, you're doing it for the massive direct dmg and blast finisher (partially what makes Evasive Arcana so awesome is instant Churning Earth). The problem is most of your other attacks don't deal condition dmg, and the ones that do (Churning Earth being an exception here) deal very weak dmg. So it's not that taking condition dmg would be bad so much as it is that you're losing out on taking another far more useful dmg stat to pick it up (in this case crit dmg).

Also bear in mind, condition dmg is counter to precision, as conditions can not crit. Conditions still on a mob when it dies are in effect, wasted dmg as well since more direct dmg itemization would have ended the fight even faster. Honestly there's only two classes in the game at this point who should really bother with condition dmg (Engineer & Necro) and in both cases their main rotation is riddled with condition applications. Trust me man, I have an 80 engineer, Ele condition dmg can't hold a candle to what I can with her grenades.

Slotting survival stats tends to work along the same rational. Survival stats would have only been worthwhile if you hovered in the grey area that would cause you to go down if you didn't have it, yet barely stay up because you did. If you never got hit, they're a waste, and if you went down while still having them, they're also a waste. As for % dmg modifiers, yes they're worth it. Ele has the most in the game and that's partially why our base coefficients are so weak, we're balanced around them. Essentially it means that you need to take them to deal good dmg, but that if you're focused on a support role and not taking them, you won't still be dealing as much dmg as the other classes who are specced for dps.

Edited by Khadroth, 06 August 2013 - 02:09 PM.

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#58 hatchet

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 04:51 PM

I find another problem with ele condi builds is you are currently (somewhat) retricted by attunement recharge. Your main condi damage attunements are earth and fire. So for example, if you swap out of earth for any reason (e.g. to heal/cleanse in water, or access a needed ability in another attunement), you are then locked out of stacking bleeds for the duration of attunement recharge. If you invest points in arcane purely for attunement recharge, that's points you're now not able to spend on higher damaging traits in other lines. Even with 30 in arcane to reduce recharge, it's still a significant time you can be locked out of your main condition damage dealing attunements. Compared to playing an engineer condition build for example, where you can throw a grenade, swap to another kit to use a needed ability and then swap back to resume grenade spamming very fast.

Edited by hatchet, 06 August 2013 - 05:00 PM.

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#59 Brizna

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:07 AM

The mantra basically works like this, you never are penalized for taking zerker stats (unless you hit crit cap but thats not feasible 99% of the time). Meanwhile I see bleed caps hit fairly often depending on group makeup. Honestly you're not casting churning earth for the bleeds anyways, you're doing it for the massive direct dmg and blast finisher (partially what makes Evasive Arcana so awesome is instant Churning Earth). The problem is most of your other attacks don't deal condition dmg, and the ones that do (Churning Earth being an exception here) deal very weak dmg. So it's not that taking condition dmg would be bad so much as it is that you're losing out on taking another far more useful dmg stat to pick it up (in this case crit dmg).

Also bear in mind, condition dmg is counter to precision, as conditions can not crit. Conditions still on a mob when it dies are in effect, wasted dmg as well since more direct dmg itemization would have ended the fight even faster. Honestly there's only two classes in the game at this point who should really bother with condition dmg (Engineer & Necro) and in both cases their main rotation is riddled with condition applications. Trust me man, I have an 80 engineer, Ele condition dmg can't hold a candle to what I can with her grenades.

Slotting survival stats tends to work along the same rational. Survival stats would have only been worthwhile if you hovered in the grey area that would cause you to go down if you didn't have it, yet barely stay up because you did. If you never got hit, they're a waste, and if you went down while still having them, they're also a waste. As for % dmg modifiers, yes they're worth it. Ele has the most in the game and that's partially why our base coefficients are so weak, we're balanced around them. Essentially it means that you need to take them to deal good dmg, but that if you're focused on a support role and not taking them, you won't still be dealing as much dmg as the other classes who are specced for dps.


I know my post was long and probably boring so the point probably got lost, I still agree that it is safer to take direct dmg and not be hit. Avoids some (uncommon) problems with party composition and not being hit is always better than being hit, that is of course if you aren't hit, if you are hit: a dead DPS/supporter doesn't do any support/DPS :P

Still most people put waaaaaay toooo muuch faith in that mantra as your post truly shows:

"Meanwhile I see bleed caps hit fairly often depending on group makeup" In my experience it only happens rarely, people love the big numbers and even necros tend to go all zerker nowadays.

"Honestly you're not casting churning earth for the bleeds anyways" Of course not, your condi damage sucks, but at 8000+ bleed damage per foe, YES I do use it for the bleeds (ontop of the blast finnisher and direct dmg of course)

"The problem is most of your other attacks don't deal condition dmg" I get the feeling you are thinking in D/D .... condi dmg for ele is S/D, autoattack on earth deals: 300x3 Direct + 2231 bleed per 1.5 sec, no power boons ... not impressive but a good filler for CDs.

"Conditions still on a mob when it dies are in effect wasted" When you hit for 8000 direct dmg on a mob and that mob only had 2000 left, those 6000 extra dmg go to dmg's heavens to magically land on next mob or are they LOST? This "evidence" of direct >>> condi really shows how it IS indeed a mantra to some extent (which doens't make it false btw)

"Survival stats would have only been worthwhile if you hovered in the grey area that would cause you to go down if you didn't have it, yet barely stay up because you did" I know it threatens your beliefs but: No LUPICUS DOESN'T ONE SHOT ME and I'm an ele, here! I said it, now you can keep ignoring the fact that condi damage does come with plenty of toghness and does HUGE use of it since it can convert 15% (or more with consumables) into even more condition damage, all in all resulting in sturdiness and a very decent, for an ele, DPS.

Some of what you say it's true though, if you read carefully you'll notice I don't say that mantras is false, only say it's true most often, but not always.

Edited by Brizna, 07 August 2013 - 10:13 AM.

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#60 Khadroth

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 03:05 PM

I know my post was long and probably boring so the point probably got lost, I still agree that it is safer to take direct dmg and not be hit. Avoids some (uncommon) problems with party composition and not being hit is always better than being hit, that is of course if you aren't hit, if you are hit: a dead DPS/supporter doesn't do any support/DPS :P

Still most people put waaaaaay toooo muuch faith in that mantra as your post truly shows:


If people put way too much faith in zerker gear it's because they don't respect their own ability to stay alive in it, not because it doesn't do more dmg than the other options. It does hands down.

"Meanwhile I see bleed caps hit fairly often depending on group makeup" In my experience it only happens rarely, people love the big numbers and even necros tend to go all zerker nowadays.


You're misunderstanding my point. Eles, Thieves, Engineers, Necros, and even a Ranger using the awful shortbow will be stacking bleeds naturally on the target regardless of their gear. The second you hit 25 stacks, your bleeds are getting overwritten by less duration, weaker damage bleeds from the other players. Zerker has nothing to do with the fact that they're eating your dmg output when this happens.

"Honestly you're not casting churning earth for the bleeds anyways" Of course not, your condi damage sucks, but at 8000+ bleed damage per foe, YES I do use it for the bleeds (ontop of the blast finnisher and direct dmg of course)

Fair enough, churning earth seems to do more specced for full condition dmg. But it requires 8 seconds to realize that potential. Though it still falls far below a lightning hammer swinging away under the same optimal conditions.

"The problem is most of your other attacks don't deal condition dmg" I get the feeling you are thinking in D/D .... condi dmg for ele is S/D, autoattack on earth deals: 300x3 Direct + 2231 bleed per 1.5 sec, no power boons ... not impressive but a good filler for CDs.


Scepter auto attacks are the weakest dmg dealing option this class has. Speccing for full condition dmg would make them more attractive but still pretty bad.

"Conditions still on a mob when it dies are in effect wasted" When you hit for 8000 direct dmg on a mob and that mob only had 2000 left, those 6000 extra dmg go to dmg's heavens to magically land on next mob or are they LOST? This "evidence" of direct >>> condi really shows how it IS indeed a mantra to some extent (which doens't make it false btw)


Ok lets use churning earth again. I over crit my 14k churning earth by 4000. Mob dies immediately. Meanwhile your churning earth crits for 8000. Mob takes 2 more seconds to die. The problem with condition dmg, is it both has to ramp up via stacks, and gets drawn out over time. The "waste" comes from the difference in time you could have killed it via direct dmg. Consider also that condition dmg is not effected by direct dmg buffs. Things like bolt to the heart, vital striking, Stone Splinters, Strength of Stone, and Piercing Shards do not effect the calculation of condition dmg, only the direct dmg portion of the attack. In fact the only offensive buff that condition dmg benefits from is might, with both fury and vulnerability only affecting the direct dmg portion.

I don't really think Anet likes condition dmg because of that. They stacked the slate so much in favor of direct damage that it's not even funny.

"Survival stats would have only been worthwhile if you hovered in the grey area that would cause you to go down if you didn't have it, yet barely stay up because you did" I know it threatens your beliefs but: No LUPICUS DOESN'T ONE SHOT ME and I'm an ele, here! I said it, now you can keep ignoring the fact that condi damage does come with plenty of toghness and does HUGE use of it since it can convert 15% (or more with consumables) into even more condition damage, all in all resulting in sturdiness and a very decent, for an ele, DPS.


Lupi should only be one shotting you with ranged attacks if he eats a grub.

See this is what makes me suspect. If you're taking toughness on your gear, you're throwing away a lot of extra dmg stats. Even at 2k toughness (which is a boat load) you're only picking up 200 condition dmg from Diamond Skin. Meanwhile you're losing all the extra power (800+) you'd be getting from rampager gear, which is really going to make your direct dmg take a hit. This means my calcs for what your potential would be, go way down as you're effectively operating close to minimal base attack. Though maybe you're refering solely the toughness you get from the earth tree (In which case diamond skin is only adding 130 cond dmg) so I don't know.

Some of what you say it's true though, if you read carefully you'll notice I don't say that mantras is false, only say it's true most often, but not always.


The mantras are mantras for a reason. You don't have to follow them, but they stand because they're proven. If you deviate from them, you do so with the understanding that you're not getting the most dmg out of your character.

Edited by Khadroth, 07 August 2013 - 03:15 PM.

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