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#1 xtbx

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:28 AM

and obviously I'm not alone who thinks that
http://www.mmorpg.co...e-Too-Easy.html

#2 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:59 AM

What (big) MMO is NOT easy though?

The thing is that GW2 is meant to be playable by all kinds of people, not just the hardcore crowd. And actually based on the official forums there are quite a few people that thinks the game is too hard, so it just comes down to perspective whether it is too hard or too easy.

There is also a reason why none of the hardcore MMOs are "big". The hardcore crowd is simply not big enough to sustain a game for long. The only exception might be EVE Online, but then again most of the time in EVE is spent not playing but rather training skills.

#3 Darkobra

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:16 AM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 July 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

The hardcore crowd is simply not big enough to sustain a game for long.

It's the other way around. No game is good enough to sustain the hardcore crowd for long.

#4 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:22 AM

View PostDarkobra, on 02 July 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

It's the other way around. No game is good enough to sustain the hardcore crowd for long.

How well did Wizardry Online go?
Or Mortal Online?

Both of those were focusing on hardcore gamers (with perma-death and such) and both of those are all but dead.

What does these games not have that the hardcore crowd "requires"?

Edited by Lordkrall, 02 July 2013 - 11:22 AM.


#5 Darkobra

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:33 AM

For a minute there I thought you were going to mention a game that WAS good enough to sustain the hardcore crowd and prove me wrong. Instead you basically just had a long-winded "I agree!"

#6 Omega X

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:38 AM

They're all easy. The focus isn't long lasting content and a deep world to explore, its microtransaction shops and theme park displays.

#7 Lordkrall

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:42 AM

View PostDarkobra, on 02 July 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

For a minute there I thought you were going to mention a game that WAS good enough to sustain the hardcore crowd and prove me wrong. Instead you basically just had a long-winded "I agree!"

So, what do those games miss that would "sustain the hardcore crowd" since you seems to know exactly what that is you should be able to tell us?

#8 KlaatuZu

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:32 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 July 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:



How well did Wizardry Online go?
Or Mortal Online?

Both of those were focusing on hardcore gamers (with perma-death and such) and both of those are all but dead.

What does these games not have that the hardcore crowd "requires"?

Lol, just give wizardry a go and you will know.

Hardcore features can add depth if implemented in a decent game....

Please don't bash hardcore games with such deplorable examples.

Take Darksouls for example, it's not even an MMO per se, and it has A LOT of passionate following (and way more endgame than GW2).

What the hardcore crowd mostly wants, is that there is, writhing the game, something for them.

I doesn't have to be permadeath + a crappy game built around it,

But the casual excess present in some games is mind numbing.

You can have a game (mainly MMOs) that have something for all to do, GW2 intended to be this way.

Having hard dungeons and other content, doesn't take away from the already present casual experience.

So why do the so said casuals want to prevent others from having a piece of the cake they also paid for?

Are these people really casuals? They sure come to forums everyday to talk about protecting the casual player interests with a very hardcore frequency,

makes me wonder if these people are not just hardcore players who are unable to play hardcore content?

It just doesn't make sense for someone who comes here everyday to be "casual" speaking..... C'MON NOW.

Edited by KlaatuZu, 02 July 2013 - 12:34 PM.


#9 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:49 PM

Quote

The main thing we lose when lowering the difficulty curve is a sense of achievement. When the bar is lowered so that everyone can reach max level quickly, it makes getting to max level the only sense of accomplishment in the game. We lose the whole journey in between, a journey that is supposed to feel fun and rewarding on its own.

This quote here showcases superbly why I find the whole post completely infuriating: in his view, the quality of the journey is still inherently tied to how far away the goal is.
You want to make the journey good?
Stop worrying about the goal and focus on the freaking journey.

But I don't think you do that by doing this:

Quote

We also have an intricate progressions system, one that focuses on lots of tinkering on the journey to maximizing your battleframes. Our crafting and resource system is one of the deepest and most complex of any MMO, having more in common with the well loved crafting system of the original Star Wars Galaxies than the simplified crafting systems of current MMOs.



It all sounds like the exact same rhetoric that was used by A.Net pre-GW2 release and we all know how that turned out.

Edited by Ritualist, 02 July 2013 - 04:20 PM.


#10 davadude

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:30 PM

I was expecting a good, interesting, and perhaps conflicting read.  Instead, I got an advertisement for Firefall.
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#11 Feathermoore

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:40 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 02 July 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

The only exception might be EVE Online, but then again most of the time in EVE is spent not playing but rather training skills.

:huh:
No time in EVE is spent training skills. Literally none. They train in the background as you play the game. In fact, you train skills while you aren't playing more than while you are. Now if you are saying "waiting for skills to train" then all I can say is you are playing the game wrong. 100% of the time spent in EVE is playing the game in some way shape or form (and entirely in the way you want to as well). Probably one of the most difficult to master games I have ever played as well.

I remember DAoC being difficult originally. Then again, this was probably due to my inexperience at that style of game and my inexperience at games in general. Most multiplayer non-PvP games are easy though. You can't have a difficulty slider and creating truly challenging content that doesn't make people throw up their hands and give up is difficult. It is a fine line that will cause you to lose players when you walk it.

View Postdavadude, on 02 July 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

I was expecting a good, interesting, and perhaps conflicting read.  Instead, I got an advertisement for Firefall.

Which is amusing, because Firefall is the easiest MMO I have ever played (even after the most recent updates).

Edited by Feathermoore, 02 July 2013 - 10:11 PM.

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#12 MazingerZ

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:26 PM

View PostRitualist, on 02 July 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

This quote here showcases superbly why I find the whole post completely infuriating: in his view, the quality of the journey is still inherently tied to how far away the goal is.

You want to make the journey good?

Stop worrying about the goal and focus on the freaking journey. And I don't think you do that by doing this:

It all sounds like the exact same rhetoric that was used by A.Net pre-GW2 release and we all know how that turned out.

View Postdavadude, on 02 July 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

I was expecting a good, interesting, and perhaps conflicting read.  Instead, I got an advertisement for Firefall.

Yeah, that this article is being extolled in certain circles is infuriating.  WoW didn't ruin per se.  The Dungeon Finder certainly didn't.  What ruined it was the cross-realm BS and the ability to change your identity at the drop of a hat with a name change, faction change or server change.  That is the only thing I miss about the old bygone days.  When a reputation still mattered.  The ability to throw yourself into a grab-bag and have a decent change to group with familiar faces AND new people would have been epic.

To the first-bit about his crafting game... I've never played EVE, but I know very little that can  beat SWG's crafting system pre-NGE.  The randomly generated materials that had quality numbers built into them, which dictated the effectiveness of the things you crafted with them.  That was a very complex crafting system.  I can only imagine how they stored that data on each individual piece of stat gear.

To the second one, he's pimping Firefall.  His article might have a point if he didn't pimp the game at the very end.  It turns it from a reflective piece into a fluff piece for Firefall.  I have heard nothing good about the game.  It looks horrible, frankly.  Kern founded Red 5 Studios in 2005, so he left WoW fairly early post-release and he can't be credited at all for the times the game was great, towards the end of Vanilla and The Burning Crusade.  Certainly not Lich King.  Red 5 hasn't made any releases since then and seems to be struggling.  The9, a Chinese company, is apparently propping it up.

In short, kitten Mark Kern.

Edited by MazingerZ, 02 July 2013 - 03:27 PM.

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Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#13 Hex65000

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:28 PM

OP: I'm sorry to hear that you feel the game is too easy. I'd suggest that you continue your search for something that meets your needs, or try something along the lines of what I do:

Ignore the metagame garbage and create funky classes and spec them appropriately. It's like playing the game on hard mode. :)

For example, A true berzerker warrior (not necessarily the armor type) that runs GSword / Sword & Sword; a Guardian that is like a proper 'cleric' running Hammer and Mace; an engineer alchemist that is all elixirs all the time. Are any of these ideas the peak of efficiency? Oh heck no, but if you have a funky weapon or skillset you find kinda fun to play and try to spec it to be functional. I find this approach to be much more enjoyable than "use this cookie-cutter 'zerker build' for maximum dps". Two of my three builds are derivatives of something that looked neat, and I then made my own changes to it. I'm comfortable playing these 'off' builds and enjoy reasonable levels of success doing it. Will hardcore elite players who need a gearcheck/spec before they will even group with me party up? Nope, and thank goodness for that favor. They are welcome to keep waiting for someone else who is adequately elite to play with them. The speedrun may take 5 minutes, but if the wait is long enough, well... where's the efficiency that was so desperately prized?

Is guild wars 2 geared more towards casual v/s hardcore? I suppose so. On the other hand, most of the time when I read posts from 'hardcore' players I am reminded that there is a FINE line between being right, and being a smug git. Most self proclaimed hardcore players I'd rather stay away from. Sometimes I'll intentionally say I'm not familar with something to force folks in a hurry to slow down long enough to breathe, and perhaps pick up on a wrinkle or two.

Of course, this leads to the eternal merry-go-round of how casual is casual? and how hardcore is hardcore? The best way to win this fight is to honestly ignore the trap as much as possible. Here's what I want from any PUG I join, and honestly you can read the first post in this thread and figure it out.
http://www.guildwars...ues-not-skills/

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#14 Desild

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:34 PM

I remember when people used to fluff Guild Wars 2. Those were the days.

Regardless I said this in the multiple MMOs I've played over the years. It's not the game that is easy, is us that are getting too good at it to the point that all challenge is gone. And I know all too well that a game can only be so hard without resorting to out right cheating (like unavoidable one-shot mechanics or Agony).

More ironically, the people that state that the game is too easy are the first ones to step into the realm of extreme optimization. Double-standards, am I right?

#15 MazingerZ

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:44 PM

View PostDesild, on 02 July 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

I remember when people used to fluff Guild Wars 2. Those were the days.

Regardless I said this in the multiple MMOs I've played over the years. It's not the game that is easy, is us that are getting too good at it to the point that all challenge is gone. And I know all too well that a game can only be so hard without resorting to out right cheating (like unavoidable one-shot mechanics or Agony).

More ironically, the people that state that the game is too easy are the first ones to step into the realm of extreme optimization. Double-standards, am I right?

Crowdsourcing information is what's really made MMOs easier.  You can go to dulfy.net or wowhead and wowpedia and find out everything you need to know about GW2 and WoW.  Strategies.  Loot.  Spawn points.  Jumping puzzle solutions.  Hell, even sites that sell you guides on how to make money.  The ability to create a site as a bastion of information about the game, which actually makes money to due game popularity and website ad revenue, has pushed games to become highly documented and therefore giving a lot of players the option to bypass the exploratory and experimentation phase.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#16 Featherman

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:55 PM

The issue's quite simple. Combat in GW2 is a dps race just like any other western MMO, except there's less rooting (which actually causes more problems than it solves). If you have enough dps and sustain there's really no challenge to the game at all.

View PostHex65000, on 02 July 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

snip
You can have all the funky builds in the world but it's rather inconsequential once you have enough stats. The only difference overall is speed, and I don't blame many for wanting to optimize so that they blaze can through content that's no longer mentally stimulating. Variety in this sense is no indication of challenge, difficulty or even quality of the game's combat, but the mere difference in the length of time spent for rewards. In fact, the theorycrafting the goes into optimization is more engaging the actual combat, Go figure.

#17 EphraimGlass

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 04:45 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 02 July 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

To the first-bit about his crafting game... I've never played EVE, but I know very little that can  beat SWG's crafting system pre-NGE.  The randomly generated materials that had quality numbers built into them, which dictated the effectiveness of the things you crafted with them.  That was a very complex crafting system.  I can only imagine how they stored that data on each individual piece of stat gear.

EVE is built around its economy.  To merely call its crafting system "complex" is a grotesque understatement.

If you want to manufacture a tier 1 laser turret, you need to acquire a blueprint - availalbe in "secure" space but possibly not nearby.  Then conduct research so that you can use it efficiently.  Obtain minerals.  You can buy them or you can mine and refine the ore yourself.  You'd better have refining trained, though, or you're losing efficiencies there as well.  Also, some of the minerals probably come from ores that are not to be found in "secure space."  Then you have to schedule time on a manufacturing bay.  More training is required to ensure efficient production.  At the end, you have a tier 1 laser turret.  Repeat for every single piece of equipment in the game.

You say you want a tier 2 laser turret?  You have to obtain copies of your tier-1 blueprint.  Lab facilities for blueprint copies are in high demand and you probably won't be able to find one in "secure" space that's available anytime sooner than a week, but you can get in line.  After you have copies, you have to conduct research to "discover" tier 2 blueprints.  This requires you to provide datacores, obtained from research agents, with whom you need to have developed a professional relationship.  Research labs are also in high demand, so you will probably have to wait another couple of weeks for the results.  Each research job MIGHT result in the production of a blueprint from which you can manufacture a limited number of tier-2 laser turrets.

Then you have to obtain materials.  In addition to a tier-1 turret, you'll need to supply additional minerals plus some advanced materials.  Advanced materials are obtained by two or three rounds of processing in a lunar mining facility.  Unless your corporation maintains such a facility, you probably will just have to buy these materials.

In all of these cases, the blueprints, datacores, minerals, and materials are objects that must be transported from place to place.  Depending on the size of your batches, it may take more than one trip to move them all from the point of purchase to the point of manufacture (and then another trip to move the finished goods to market.)  If you're moving through "insecure" space, there are no NPC police to protect you while you're transporting materials and goods.  Even in "secure" space, if your cargo is valuable enough, it may be worthwhile for a pirate to get himself killed by the NPC police to destroy your ship so that his buddies can loot the wreckage afterward.

#18 MazingerZ

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 04:58 PM

View PostEphraimGlass, on 02 July 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

snip

There's complex and then there's tedious.  SWG's system had materials which had properties such as conductivity or whatever.  Basically physical properties, which made them better to use in manufacturing certain items.  To make Han Solo's gun, you needed a class of material (such as a metal with diamagnetic properties or something).  The quality of that material dictated the quality of the gun you made, its own properties.  Those properties could be further enhanced (by pure RNG, sadly) by a Smuggler who had Slicing, and the effectiveness of his slicing was dictated by the quality of his own crafted tools, which were consumable.

These materials would appear randomly on various worlds for about a week.  You had to travel to the worlds and survey them.  At first, you were limited to manual extraction (tho the macro system in SWG let you loop actions), but as you leveled your tradesman skills, you could find high deposits and set up extractors and leave them there.  You did have to occasionally return to repair and refuel extractors.  I think their effectiveness at extraction was also dictated on the quality of materials used in their construction.  You picked up the materials and did what you wanted with them.  Low quality materials were used for grinding out professional skill points, higher qualities were used for actual commerce.

The materials were randomly generated and dispersed.  Their names were derived from a random name generator.  So when something good popped up from the entire RNG machine, the market would suddenly shift.

The concept of material characteristics affecting the overall quality of your item was probably one of SWG's crowning achievements.

I've never played EVE, but the way you explained it sounded like a bunch of steps everyone has to step through in order to obtain the same result.  That means its entirely possible to control the lines of production, such as what I hear Goon does on occasion.  The large cartels, which are essentially just mega corps in EVE.

SWG's mechanisms were more spontaneous and probably offered the ability to shift the market based more on chaos theory, because materials of high quality were exhaustible and you had to make due with subpar materials, if none had spawned... the concept of resource scarcity and 'discovering' new materials for production.

Edited by MazingerZ, 02 July 2013 - 05:05 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#19 Mhenlo

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:10 PM

View PostDesild, on 02 July 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

I remember when people used to fluff Guild Wars 2. Those were the days.

Regardless I said this in the multiple MMOs I've played over the years. It's not the game that is easy, is us that are getting too good at it to the point that all challenge is gone. And I know all too well that a game can only be so hard without resorting to out right cheating (like unavoidable one-shot mechanics or Agony).

More ironically, the people that state that the game is too easy are the first ones to step into the realm of extreme optimization. Double-standards, am I right?

I totally agree. That is one of the many reasons why skills tied to weapons were such a good idea at one point. Too bad that failed just as hard as so many other things.

It would have been really interesting to have the skills from GW1 show up in GW2 but tied to weapons. So, instead of being able to make some totally broken build, you could choose from something like a shock axe warrior, or boon prot monk or e-denial mesmer. This way, you could lower the bar of entry to the game by having good skillbars tied to weapons and be able to police the effects of broken builds that make PvE or PvP broken/unbalanced or basically build > skill.

Instead, we have a game that just makes DPS king and therefore build is still greater than skill. Except, this time classes are much better than others - way more so than GW1 ever was. It's like they took one step forward and two steps backward.

Tying skills to weapons COULD have been such a great idea, but that got thrown out the window and we still have a system where people utilize broken combat mechanics in PvE to make the game easier.

Of course, just like the people that complain about fixing exploits in single player games because they feel the need to use them, I will never understand people that complain about broken builds in PvE and refuse to just not use them either.

#20 Hex65000

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:12 PM

And my point was missed by a mile. Please try again.

Perhaps, that is the difference between myself and those looking towards a min/max, I'll get the loot I want eventually. Why rush to become bored faster?

As for combat mechanics, let's try an example:
I do not enjoy playing GSword on warrior. it feels like crap and I don't enjoy or feel effective using it when I select this weapon. However, hammer felt good and there is the burst skill that I find to be amusing to no end -- second only to banish on Guardian.

BUT! BUT! You need GSword to do maximum damage output, and hundred blades! Some will say.

I'm not saying theroycrating is bad, but it's application goes beyond the narrow scope that is typically sited. In fact, that's what I find more fun. Taking something that forum spreadsheet heroes call a waste of a build and make it functional on my terms. With some general guidelines and knowing my own skill level and playstyle I can make 'menial combat' at least a little more enjoyable by using weapons/utilities that work for me and allow me to survive in the field. We are both talking about optimization, but my scope is significantly wider than yours. I'm also more interested in what 'feels good' versus 'loot rate' which is really what focused optimizers are truly interested in. Damage happens to be the fastest way to increase loot rate therefore as long as you can dodge well/not die glass cannons are ideal.

Sure, I could drop all my current builds and just pick a total glass cannon using weapons I may or may not enjoy using, learn to dodge a little better, and hang out here whining that the game is too easy as well, or I can do what I please and enjoy myself and relish the slightly greater challenge that comes with taking on harder content with an "imperfect build" that works for me. I can accept a hit in loot rate for general enjoyment. Others clearly see no joy in combat and only see joy in the loot.

Is the combat good? It's okay for what it is, but not fantastically amazing either. ANet bugs the hell outta me for various wonky choices, but if it ever wears too thin I'll move on from the game and here.

Mazinger also raises a good point about crowd sourced information about a game. Ugh, imagine the howls if you had to do guild treks without the ability to look up the locations? I remember generating dungeon maps for an old-school rpg a friend and I were playing. There was a need to be careful as you explored, and meticulous mapping as you crept through. Nowadays? Google.

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#21 Eliirae

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:29 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe GW2 was ever advertised as being a "hardcore" game.  In fact, I believe it was advertised in a way saying that people of all skill levels would be able to play it.  Of course, this means the game itself has to be easy.

Of course, if all I did was sit around queensdale and farm the veteran troll, oakheart and whenever he shows up, the shadow behemoth, I'd believe the game is super easy as well.

#22 EphraimGlass

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:30 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 02 July 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

I've never played EVE, but the way you explained it sounded like a bunch of steps everyone has to step through in order to obtain the same result.  That means its entirely possible to control the lines of production, such as what I hear Goon does on occasion.  The large cartels, which are essentially just mega corps in EVE.

Oh, yeah, it totally rewarded monopoly power.  There were periodic upheavels for control of regions of space rich in rare minerals and the gates around crucial choke points into and out of those regions were death traps.  EVE was not designed to be fair or equal opportunity.

#23 Featherman

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:33 PM

View PostHex65000, on 02 July 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

And my point was missed by a mile. Please try again.

Perhaps, that is the difference between myself and those looking towards a min/max, I'll get the loot I want eventually. Why rush to become bored faster?

As for combat mechanics, let's try an example:
I do not enjoy playing GSword on warrior. it feels like crap and I don't enjoy or feel effective using it when I select this weapon. However, hammer felt good and there is the burst skill that I find to be amusing to no end -- second only to banish on Guardian.

BUT! BUT! You need GSword to do maximum damage output, and hundred blades! Some will say.

I'm not saying theroycrating is bad, but it's application goes beyond the narrow scope that is typically sited. In fact, that's what I find more fun. Taking something that forum spreadsheet heroes call a waste of a build and make it functional on my terms. With some general guidelines and knowing my own skill level and playstyle I can make 'menial combat' at least a little more enjoyable by using weapons/utilities that work for me and allow me to survive in the field. We are both talking about optimization, but my scope is significantly wider than yours. I'm also more interested in what 'feels good' versus 'loot rate' which is really what focused optimizers are truly interested in. Damage happens to be the fastest way to increase loot rate therefore as long as you can dodge well/not die glass cannons are ideal.

Sure, I could drop all my current builds and just pick a total glass cannon using weapons I may or may not enjoy using, learn to dodge a little better, and hang out here whining that the game is too easy as well, or I can do what I please and enjoy myself and relish the slightly greater challenge that comes with taking on harder content with an "imperfect build" that works for me. I can accept a hit in loot rate for general enjoyment. Others clearly see no joy in combat and only see joy in the loot.

Is the combat good? It's okay for what it is, but not fantastically amazing either. ANet bugs the hell outta me for various wonky choices, but if it ever wears too thin I'll move on from the game and here.

Mazinger also raises a good point about crowd sourced information about a game. Ugh, imagine the howls if you had to do guild treks without the ability to look up the locations? I remember generating dungeon maps for an old-school rpg a friend and I were playing. There was a need to be careful as you explored, and meticulous mapping as you crept through. Nowadays? Google.

Hex.
[ Strike me down and I shall become more wonky than you can possibly imagine... ]
Really? Your point was to deride min/maxers as elites and say that playing your own way has more merit because its fun, while in fact its a natural process in the role playing game genre for many players (part of the fun for them). I'm saying that the game is so easy it's inconsequential and what build you use doesn't really matter aside from the time it takes. It's true, what build you use is your prerogative but consider that this is an MMO and you'e playing with others. Sometimes you have to forgo using skills that "feel good" in order to contribute and save time and grief for those around you (why pugs have a bad reputation among many players). Your "scope" may be wider, but its objectively inefficient and in a game that focuses on layering rewards on mechanics that aren't engaging the second time around it's not unreasonable for players to min/max in order to reach the reward faster.

The rest of the post is filled to the brim of strawman and ad hominem, so I'm not going to bother addressing it.

#24 Darkobra

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:35 PM

View PostDesild, on 02 July 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

More ironically, the people that state that the game is too easy are the first ones to step into the realm of extreme optimization. Double-standards, am I right?

Not always. I've taken great pride in creating my own builds, my own style and rising to the challenge. In GW1, it was incredible and I spent months creating the best builds I could through trial and error for EVERY element for my elementalist. Some missions demanded a certain element and I was always able to give it my all.

In GW2, half the build is chosen for you. You really can run anything anywhere and win. I don't think it's even possible to lose.

#25 Hex65000

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:09 PM

Sigh, and I hopped on the merry-go-round... <sadface>

Let's try a TL;CR version...

I play how I like, and make a conscious effort to carry my own weight. I typically do.
Since the game provides a lot of flexibility there are many routes to success. Synergy in any build is good, and should be used. If there is truly only one way to play the game then yes, the game is cookie-cutter and boring.
My first post suggested a way to mix it up if the OP was interested in still playing. Although, the OP was probably more interested in increasing hits to the linked article. My second post addresses the 'optimization' aspect. Beyond that, I saw nothing constructive, so I'm moving on.

Hex.
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#26 Mhenlo

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:24 PM

View PostHex65000, on 02 July 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

Sigh, and I hopped on the merry-go-round... <sadface>

Let's try a TL;CR version...

I play how I like, and make a conscious effort to carry my own weight. I typically do.
Since the game provides a lot of flexibility there are many routes to success. Synergy in any build is good, and should be used. If there is truly only one way to play the game then yes, the game is cookie-cutter and boring.
My first post suggested a way to mix it up if the OP was interested in still playing. Although, the OP was probably more interested in increasing hits to the linked article. My second post addresses the 'optimization' aspect. Beyond that, I saw nothing constructive, so I'm moving on.

Hex.
[ "Riiiight!" --Bill Cosby ]

Here's the drawback from a design aspect about what you are suggesting. Because skills are tied to weapons and there a finite amount of weapons per character, there is a finite amount of builds that can be considered. Because the amount of weapons available to any class, as well as utility skills, are rather small - there is really not much that you can come up with that is any different than anyone else has come up with. Basically, there is a very limited amount of builds that anyone can run per class - so nothing you do should either be unintended or that unique.

Therefore, given that there is such a large discrepancy between "optimized" builds and "funky builds", the only conclusion is that the development team has no clue what they are doing and that the combat/skill system in this game is a heaping pile of garbage. The system should be much easier to manage than GW1 and yet we still have a boatload of problems.

#27 Fernling306

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:07 PM

I agree with it being too easy. I've pugged every single dungeon and have completed all meta events in the game without any difficulties.

#28 Doctor Overlord

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:46 PM

That article was a reminder why I stopped reading that site a long time ago.  

View Postdavadude, on 02 July 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:


I was expecting a good, interesting, and perhaps conflicting read.  Instead, I got an advertisement for Firefall.
Exactly.  This guy has had interviews where he brought up the same points and hyped his game, but it is one thing to advertise your game when you are doing an interview and another thing to hype your game in an article for a fansite.

Aside from that, it will be interesting to see how much of a market can be obtained by the recent trend in MMOs to go back to appealing to less casual players.   Firefall is not alone in doing this, games like ArchAge and Camelot Unchained are planning the same thing.   Perhaps there is enough interest to maintain all these different game targeting the hardcore market.

Edited by Doctor Overlord, 02 July 2013 - 09:49 PM.


#29 Desild

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:02 PM

View PostDarkobra, on 02 July 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Not always. I've taken great pride in creating my own builds, my own style and rising to the challenge. In GW1, it was incredible and I spent months creating the best builds I could through trial and error for EVERY element for my elementalist. Some missions demanded a certain element and I was always able to give it my all.

In GW2, half the build is chosen for you. You really can run anything anywhere and win. I don't think it's even possible to lose.

Well, not sure about you man, but I was a control-freak back in Guild Wars 1 and went to great lengths to optimize my Hero builds. I spent an entire year working on my Jora's build alone and that same build carried me across the Underworld, FoW and that very hard dungeon where Duncan hanged out with his cronies (which name I can't recall and I'm too lazy to /wiki it).

Yep, I took pride in my optimized under-optimized builds. I mean, I had to be crazy to roll around with Thalkora as a Protection monk, and Jora with a non-tanking build with Dragon Slash. Right? And Mind Blast Sousuke without Meteor Shower, Broad Head Arrow Pyre, Panic Gwen, Healer's Boon Dunkoro and Avatar of Grenth M.O.X.

And somehow I managed to do DoA... Cripes, what the hell Desild. You sunk really low from your glory days as leader of Blade and Rose. Ahem... Where I'm getting at here is, well, sometimes, too much skill can be explained as to why the game is too easy. Nothing wrong in being skilled, mind you, since I managed to get over my COD with it, but we have to sit back and think of the not-so-skilled members of the community. Like Roleplayers, who I adore dearly.

#30 Eon Lilu

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:05 PM

Pretty much why I am done with the whole mmo genre, they have been made way too casual, way too easy and more watered down experience, I am hoping Star Citizen will bring my hope back into online gaming but even with that game im worried it's being brought down to a slightly more casual level. I don't think it will be but im still worried about it.

It used to be about the game's and the players that supported your game decades ago, now it's all about the bottom line and how many players you can drag towards your game whoever they are....

The industry has changed so much and not for the better.

I think I might be done with games in general if something doesn't change soon, I dunno maybe im just getting old :P

Edited by Eon Lilu, 02 July 2013 - 10:07 PM.





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