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Why expansions wont work and the living story


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#1 NineSpine

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 01:16 AM

It seems to me that everyone is overlooking a fairly obvious reason why Arenanet is shying away from expansions. GW2 is a community-oriented and the world is already too large for the number of players per server. It's ALREADY a pain trying to find people for anything but a handful of the current dungeon paths. It's ALREADY a pain trying to find people in the current zones. It's obvious that the correct model going forward is to EVOLVE existing content, not replace it with an expansion.

The Living Story allows ArenaNet to provide new content without that negative side effect. Temporary content can't spread players too thin, but it does allow for the current content to be improved on and evolved, although they have yet to tap into that capability in any substantive way.

#2 Gerroh

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 01:44 AM

The reason it's hard is because everyone has done everything and they're bored and you don't have a guild to do things with and people are leaving due to a lack of expansions. You have got it backwards.

PS: Expansions aren't just about new zones/dungeons/missions.

Edited by Gerroh, 04 July 2013 - 01:45 AM.


#3 The Shadow

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 02:00 AM

View PostGerroh, on 04 July 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

The reason it's hard is because everyone has done everything and they're bored and you don't have a guild to do things with and people are leaving due to a lack of expansions. You have got it backwards.

PS: Expansions aren't just about new zones/dungeons/missions.

So what are they about?

Only reasons I can think of aside from yours are: new armor/ professions/ skills. I'd say zones/ dungeons/ missions play a pretty large part too.

#4 NineSpine

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:54 PM

View PostGerroh, on 04 July 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

The reason it's hard is because everyone has done everything and they're bored and you don't have a guild to do things with and people are leaving due to a lack of expansions. You have got it backwards.

PS: Expansions aren't just about new zones/dungeons/missions.

First of all, the game isn't even a year old. Anyone that expects an expansion in that time frame isn't really dealing with reality, so complaints about a lack of expansion at this point are downright silly.

Second of all, you are right that there are other things expansions are about, such as new game systems and new classes/races/abilities... but they've already added a substantial number of new game systems since launch, and there is nothing stopping them from adding any of those other things with the current Living Story model. In fact, the Living Story allows them to add those things in a staggered format that will make them significantly easier to integrate into the game in a balanced fashion.

The only thing that the Living Story model precludes is the addition of massive amounts of new, permanent content at one time, which would be terrible for the game anyway for the reasons I cited in the OP.

#5 Gerroh

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 05:54 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 04 July 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

So what are they about?

Only reasons I can think of aside from yours are: new armor/ professions/ skills. I'd say zones/ dungeons/ missions play a pretty large part too.

I agree zones/dungeons/missions are a large part, but it seemed as if OP was missing another big part of expansions that living story really should not touch. A full-blown expansion would likely add new weapon types, armor sets, and skills(I honestly don't want more professions right now) much more smoothly than living story would, and that's what makes the difference. We can add new zones and dungeons and missions until the end of time, but people are going to stop giving a shit if they don't have new toys to conquer those challenges with.

Gem-store armor sets don't count. It's better to earn armor sets through stomping your enemies' necks into the ground rather than typing in credit card info.
Plus, the armor sets are all distorted and awful on sylvari and this is almost a year after release, so I'm a bit pissed off that Anet hasn't made any effort to address the whole "balloon pants" problem male sylvari face.

View PostNineSpine, on 04 July 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

First of all, the game isn't even a year old. Anyone that expects an expansion in that time frame isn't really dealing with reality, so complaints about a lack of expansion at this point are downright silly.

Second of all, you are right that there are other things expansions are about, such as new game systems and new classes/races/abilities... but they've already added a substantial number of new game systems since launch, and there is nothing stopping them from adding any of those other things with the current Living Story model. In fact, the Living Story allows them to add those things in a staggered format that will make them significantly easier to integrate into the game in a balanced fashion.

The only thing that the Living Story model precludes is the addition of massive amounts of new, permanent content at one time, which would be terrible for the game anyway for the reasons I cited in the OP.

I, personally, wasn't complaining about a lack of expansions, but a lot of people are. The fact remains that once an expansion is brought in, people will flood back, people who were hesitant about the game will make up their minds and we'll get plenty more new people from there, and all of the new zones will be flooded with people doing the crap there until they get bored of it. My point is that GW2 would benefit from expansions, and you're a silly goose if you think otherwise.

(Addressing "Second of all..." specifically)
These things are better added through an expansion. Adding them one little project at a time results in a very choppy and very messy world. Wayfarer Foothills wasn't originally designed with Flame and Frost in mind, and the result was that the zone was a choppy boring mess for the duration of the event. Then let's look at the weapons and armor... wait, where are the weapons and armor? Oh, that's right. No one cares about the armor now that the event is over, because everyone realized the tentacles and the lava gloves look hideous on 99.9% of outfits, and the only people still wearing them have either found a miracle outfit or are complete loons with no sense of fashion. Meanwhile, the weapons were available through the most horrendous system ever. Not only did you have to buy gems(or wait forever for one of those Southsun crates to drop), but even after that you had a RANDOM chance to get it after having spent money. So the result of this shit is that no one wears what little armor there was and barely anyone has the weapons. If we got a paid expansion which included NPCs we could walk up to and get weapons and armor from without forking over gems for a random chance we would actually see the art department's efforts. Well, thankfully we can still see the art department's efforts in the amazing new du--ohright those were a limited time. Well, it seems like all of Anet's art department is just wasting their time on things no one's going to bother with, no one's going to have, or no one's going to see anymore. In short: Living story sucks, permanent expansion is preferable.

Living story has added... one new zone. One new zone no one from GW1 cared about. One new zone that took several special events just to be worth giving a shit.
A zone is a good zone when it doesn't require multiple limited-time rewards to get people interested in it. A zone is a good zone when it doesn't need +200% magic find to get people interested in it. A zone is a good zone when it doesn't have three different events that just take place in different spots on the map. And most importantly: A zone is a good zone when you have an interest in it before even going there, and upon entering your only reaction is "Wow".

GW2 needs Crystal Desert Jungle, Elona, Cantha, Maguuma Wastes, Northern Shiverpeaks, Isles of Janthir, Ring of Fire, and all of the other places we see on the map, but can only grasp at and dream of what might be there. "Living story" is not the way to deliver these locations.

#6 Mister Stygian

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:15 PM

Paying for something makes people like it, numerous psychological studies have shown this.  Besides the heavy hours people will log because of a purchase who already are playing; it will bring back players who have abandoned accounts and introduce new players by having a presence in stores again.  Releasing new content as living story only keep players that are playing now and somewhat discourages return of inactive players.

#7 Just Horus

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:19 PM

View PostNineSpine, on 04 July 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

It seems to me that everyone is overlooking a fairly obvious reason why Arenanet is shying away from expansions. GW2 is a community-oriented and the world is already too large for the number of players per server. It's ALREADY a pain trying to find people for anything but a handful of the current dungeon paths. It's ALREADY a pain trying to find people in the current zones. It's obvious that the correct model going forward is to EVOLVE existing content, not replace it with an expansion.

No one is overlooking that. It's a pain to find people for content that encompasses most of the game world because the community does not find that content to be interesting. You can make the world as big or as small as you like but that isn't going to entice people into participating in content that they don't find enjoyable. And last I checked, typical expansions don't remove areas of the world, they add on to it, so I don't agree with your implication that expansions replace content.

And lol @ living story evolving existing content. Wayfarer's and associated regions? Same old same old. Southsun? Same old same old. Lion's Arch after Dragon Bash and Aetherblades? Probably going to be the same old same old.

Honestly, if ANet continues on their current direction with Living Story, I won't be surprised if Tyria is exactly the same in a year's time with little to show for it.

Edited by Just Horus, 04 July 2013 - 07:22 PM.


#8 Illein

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:28 PM

I would like an expansion.

For the simple reason, that I haven't seen any sensational content being released up to now and I'd much rather have the situation in which they'd either have to deliver or find themselves fluttering with their arms trying to fly, than be dished off with barely acceptable content that goes under the guise of "Hey, it's free, no?" while they nickle and dime me for every silver line of something new being introduced to the cash shop.

I guess it makes sense to not make an expansion with various new dungeons i.e. which people would expect to come with their own sets of weapons and armors, if you can just release them for XXX € per cox box weapon and 10 € per armor instead.

I don't necessarily think the cash shop is the root of all evil, not at all. But it still annoys me that the cosmetical progression I sought when I first started to read about GW 2 - basically means I have to open my purse for every new colour or armor piece.

It just doesn't feel like I am buying convenience, it feels to me like I am literally purchasing a reason to keep playing. While that might be great from a company's point of view, I doubt that will go on for longer than a few months before it gets old and I won't do it any longer.

And I really can't think of a way right now, which would make old areas SO interesting, that I'd prefer them over completely fresh ones. That's the name of the game. MMORPG players have been nursed to expect something flashy every once in a while that takes them another few weeks to consume.

Edited by Illein, 04 July 2013 - 07:31 PM.


#9 Jedibless

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:38 PM

Guys its almost an guarantee that expansions will come, because this is where the big bucks come. Not from the 20/30% of the player base using the gem store.

Only question is; when?

#10 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:47 PM

View PostJedibless, on 04 July 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

Guys its almost an guarantee that expansions will come, because this is where the big bucks come. Not from the 20/30% of the player base using the gem store.

Only question is; when?

You have around 3 million GW2 games sold. If they put out an expansion, I doubt everyone would be buying it, which means we are most likely looking at around 1-2 mil purchases at around 30 bucks each.
It honestly wouldn't surprise me if the cash shop generated MORE revenue in the first few months than an expansion ever will and they certainly didn't put as much work into the cash shop stuff as they'd need to put into an expansion.


I would assume that the cash shop is where the big bucks come from and the expansion, if it comes, will just serve to push the cash shop.

#11 NerfHerder

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 01:48 AM

I respectfully disagree with the OP. Yes it is hard to find folks in the open world. However, living story does fill those zones nicely when it comes around. The only time in recent history when I was thrown into an overflow server is when living story drops a new update. I'm sure the same will be true when living story comes around and improves dungeons. And everyone else is either busy with fractals, speed running a broken dungeon, farming map bosses, or WvW. You know, endgame stuff.  

There is plenty of room for both living story and an expansion.

#12 ExplosivePinata

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 02:50 AM

I'd just like to know what the hell the 300-ish staff members are doing over at Anet because I want a job :P

Lol at your avatar Ritualist :D

Edited by ExplosivePinata, 05 July 2013 - 02:51 AM.


#13 draxynnic

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 03:18 AM

View PostNineSpine, on 04 July 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

First of all, the game isn't even a year old. Anyone that expects an expansion in that time frame isn't really dealing with reality, so complaints about a lack of expansion at this point are downright silly.
Guild Wars 1 had Factions released on its one year anniversary, and IIRC we'd had the PvP preview event at around this point. Certainly, we knew Factions was coming by GW1's ten-month anniversary. Guild Wars 2, however... we're still getting "we have no plans for an expansion pack at this time, and maybe not ever"s from the devs. I think it's fair for people who want expansions to be getting a little antsy, especially when there's so much of the story that's obviously got "RESERVED FOR EXPANSIONS" written over it.

On the argument of player density... that's really a bit of a catch-22. Expansions are good at bringing people back and focusing them into a particular area. Guild Wars 1 still had a decent number of players all through the game a year or so after EoTN released, so I don't think it really follows that expansions lose you more than you get when it comes to maintaining player density.
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#14 leongrado

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 06:34 AM

I'd shell out 50$ for an expansion. I already shelled out 30$ for slots... I'm beginning to see why they're too lazy to make an expansion. It would hardly be worth their time.

The living world is fine if the content was fun enough to overcome the discomfort of constant game changes. Sometimes I just don't want to figure out this new stuff every month you know? And someone tell me who actually buys gems and cosmetic stuff on the gem store? I would be interested in hearing why.

Can't really blame Anet too much for the expansion (or lack of) situation. They're not the ones that are making the calls. NCSoft is.

As mentioned before, an expansion would bring ppl flooding back. Not to mention the sales on slots. Heck I wouldn't even mind if the expansion only came with 1 free slot with 2 new professions. I'd buy another slot because I would be getting content that I want to actually play!

#15 Illein

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:54 AM

View Postleongrado, on 05 July 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

And someone tell me who actually buys gems and cosmetic stuff on the gem store? I would be interested in hearing why.

Can only give you my own reason: Because I was graving for an armor that isn't the Orrian one for my heavy class and the moment a new one popped up (despite not being 100% up my alley) I shelled out the 10 € without thinking twice about it.

It well entertained me for little under 3 weeks now. I'd buy it again. Though come to think of it, the next time I will not resort to paypal but instead farm the ~30 Gold or what it is, at least that way - I can trick myself into thinking I was actually provided "content" because I work towards a tangible goal, right? ;)

But generally, I don't mind paying for cosmetic stuff, would just be nice if there would be some of it obtainable through means that actually relate to the content it was introduced through. Running CoF 3 hours a day for a week will no doubt net me the armor too, but yeah - it's just not terribly entertaining.

#16 nerfandderf

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:07 AM

View PostNineSpine, on 04 July 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

First of all, the game isn't even a year old. Anyone that expects an expansion in that time frame isn't really dealing with reality, so complaints about a lack of expansion at this point are downright silly.

Second of all, you are right that there are other things expansions are about, such as new game systems and new classes/races/abilities... but they've already added a substantial number of new game systems since launch, and there is nothing stopping them from adding any of those other things with the current Living Story model. In fact, the Living Story allows them to add those things in a staggered format that will make them significantly easier to integrate into the game in a balanced fashion.

The only thing that the Living Story model precludes is the addition of massive amounts of new, permanent content at one time, which would be terrible for the game anyway for the reasons I cited in the OP.


But the downside to the drip feed of content is the loss and burnout. Expansions bring in big $$ and excitement to the game. They change metas that were causing issues and allow players to go at their pace.The drip feed means things are paced out - not told properly since you can miss it and it is gone and then there is the burn out of trying to keep up. I just dont see any excitement with living story - I do see a lot of blow back from the population about it tho. You know what happens to companies that dont give the players what they want right?

#17 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:38 AM

View PostGerroh, on 04 July 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Living story has added... one new zone. One new zone no one from GW1 cared about. One new zone that took several special events just to be worth giving a shit.
A zone is a good zone when it doesn't require multiple limited-time rewards to get people interested in it. A zone is a good zone when it doesn't need +200% magic find to get people interested in it. A zone is a good zone when it doesn't have three different events that just take place in different spots on the map. And most importantly: A zone is a good zone when you have an interest in it before even going there, and upon entering your only reaction is "Wow".

GW2 needs Crystal Desert Jungle, Elona, Cantha, Maguuma Wastes, Northern Shiverpeaks, Isles of Janthir, Ring of Fire, and all of the other places we see on the map, but can only grasp at and dream of what might be there. "Living story" is not the way to deliver these locations.

So much this ^^.

There was so much lore in GW1 to expand on, mysteries to solve, ex. Where are the gargoyles? What was the northern threat beyond beetletun and across the Giant's Basin? Who built Rata sum? Where are the last of the Mursaat? How is Kormir doing with her realm? What's going on with Dhuum and Grenth? Can we please see how the Luxons and Kurzicks are doing? ...Where art thou bloodstones?

We NEED new stories and plots that actually matter. With the living story yeah we get stories that matter, but it doesn't really feel like you did anything since the fricken enemy faction chickens out after 2 weeks, and you know they will.

With GW1 you had stories that matter, you felt like you had to ACCOMPLISH something, you had to get to the end of the story and keep going to see how the story will play out. Nightfall for example, you land in the sunspear isle just a handful of troops VS an entire continent and demons of the realms of torment, you get that feeling of "how in the world is this story going to end?"

Yeah, we have a personal storyline in GW2, it was all over the place and didn't seem to fit well, the characters were one sided and unmemorable, and the writing was amateur. But now we need another storyline, one that is revised and as good as the stories in GW1, with memorable characters, a real goal, a primary evil, a real dramatic adventure, etc.

We need ONE expansive set of content, that includes ONE major patch. Nobody wants to only be able to play out storylines every week, on ArenaNet's set schedule. It feels like a bloody chore. "July 5th, start of personal storyline – Chapter 1 ends July 10th. Okay, then Chapter 2 starts... July 15th..." No. That's just ridiculous, that's how living story has been so far and it's just plain unorganized and not fun, nor professional...

Edited by I'm Squirrel, 05 July 2013 - 11:40 AM.


#18 Shinimas

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:45 AM

What I want to know is how the hell are they planning to introduce new dragons when they take minimal time approach to creating new content?

View PostNineSpine, on 04 July 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

It seems to me that everyone is overlooking a fairly obvious reason why Arenanet is shying away from expansions. GW2 is a community-oriented and the world is already too large for the number of players per server. It's ALREADY a pain trying to find people for anything but a handful of the current dungeon paths. It's ALREADY a pain trying to find people in the current zones. It's obvious that the correct model going forward is to EVOLVE existing content, not replace it with an expansion.

The Living Story allows ArenaNet to provide new content without that negative side effect. Temporary content can't spread players too thin, but it does allow for the current content to be improved on and evolved, although they have yet to tap into that capability in any substantive way.

New content will funnel people into new areas, consolidating the player mass. You have it backwards.

#19 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:49 AM

View PostShinimas, on 05 July 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

New content will funnel people into new areas, consolidating the player mass. You have it backwards.

And what happens with the old content?




EDIT:

View PostExplosivePinata, on 05 July 2013 - 02:50 AM, said:

Lol at your avatar Ritualist :D


Had it ages ago already and then Fox started showing X-Files here again and I was reminded of it's glory. ^^

Edited by Ritualist, 06 July 2013 - 12:25 PM.


#20 NineSpine

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 02:20 PM

View PostRitualist, on 05 July 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:



And what happens with the old content?

The same thing that happens in wow: people log in and walk around a bunch of dead zones and then quit because they can't play with their friends for weeks.

The bottom line is that everything people want from xpacs can be introduced in living story. The only thing that can't be done is a massive dump of new content that would be destructive anyway. The people crying for an xpac are the same ones that would burn through the content in a month and then be unhappy again.

#21 Darkobra

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 02:44 PM

Luxons? Kurzicks? The domains of the Gods and the banishment of Dhuum? Crystal desert? What's the point in any of that? Everyone loves dragons!

Your game starts with dragons! Your next expansion will be dragons! Living story? Dragon minions! And for the utter bottom of the barrel sell-out? Zombie drago- Oh wait. We started with that. Awkward.

#22 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 03:33 PM

View PostNineSpine, on 05 July 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

The bottom line is that everything people want from xpacs can be introduced in living story. The only thing that can't be done is a massive dump of new content that would be destructive anyway. The people crying for an xpac are the same ones that would burn through the content in a month and then be unhappy again.

Look at the destruction Fractals left behind: you don't need an expansion to wreak havoc and kill off certain parts of the game.

I absolutely agree that expansion would lead to a split in population and that's why I am quite a fan of the LS approach, but at the same time, that dump of content would probably be more interesting than anything we can get from the LS. With that in mind, I think that expansions do have a place in GW2, but A.Net would need to be extremely careful in implementing them while, at the same time, providing us with tools that would limit the the negative effects of such additions (better LFG, better cross-realm play, easier grouping, ...), but if they would fail to provide us with those tools (which seems to be the case), then the LS is probably the better, or better yet, the less problematic, option.


But, let's be honest: the problem here really aren't expansions: the problem here is that the game is bleeding players left and right. If the game was alive, then we really wouldn't need to worry about splitting the userbase.

Edited by Ritualist, 05 July 2013 - 04:38 PM.


#23 Simon1812

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 03:58 PM

yeah, putting aside the faulty logic promoted by this topic,I can say I played GW1 with 2 characters (War and Ranger), experimented with other 3 but it didnt work, after exploring all of prophesies I called it quits.
  I wouldnt look back till factions was released, again I explored, I created new characters, finished the (rather short) campaign, did an unusually long time on PVP, and got the new armors for my fav characters, yet again I found myself in the same position I was before ,when i depleted all that continent offered, again I called it quits.
I stayed away from GW1 till Nightfalls released, probably my favorite campaign, with Nightfalls anet gave me the dervish class which i loved so much I would go back and complete prophecies and factions with my Derv. the prospect of doing all that content with a new class that I really enjoyed playing was great.

my point? a new campaign would revitalize the game, the ppl who have already completed the game and feelt they have had enough to justify uninstalling it and moving on, WONT COME BACK FOR ONE DUNGEON , AN SCAVENGER HUNT (the aetherbalde caches thing) AND ONE EXASPERATING JUMPING PUZZLE! no! not even if a new one happens every couple of months or whatever.
     on the other hand players will indeed come back to explore and discover a new world/continent, fight new threats become part of a new story line ,collect new weapons find new armors that will make them feel  unique and stand out in ways the previous sets coulndt (too many players not enough armor/weapons sets IMO). that being said, even if it is Anets intention to do that, it will take some time, and Im talking about years.

    from my point of view it is looking like Anet is trying to get away from a new campaign/continent approach  by experimenting with this living story things, release a new area  here, a dungeon there, go to places u already been  and so on, which are not necessarily bad things, they are just too little, and dont beat the scale of what would be a full release of a new campaign or continent.

just to clarify some little things, after reading some comments:


when it comes to GW1 the release of the later continents are counted as campaigns, why werent they expansions? a newcomer could buy either GW Factions or GW Nightfall without needing the original campaign (GW Prophecies) every campaign is independent. on the other hand to play GW:Eye of the North (the one and only actual expansion to GW1) one would be required to have at least one of the 3 previously released campaigns. in case u r wondering ,the story line would explaing how that would work...asura gates...u r shocked now, yeah ppl ask me that stuff.

small note, having the 3 campaigns was awesome and anet was able to exploit this pretty neatly by releasing some intercontinental quests and storyline.

PS

so sry if I actually made u read all of that :D

Edited by Simon1812, 05 July 2013 - 04:02 PM.


#24 Kichwas

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 04:51 PM

Zones end up empty when there is less incentive to go to them...
- This the OP has right, but it is a stretch to say this is a reason to avoid expansions.

Yes some events have brought life to zones that were otherwise going largely unused.
Dailies have also brought life to low level zones. Need to knock out 4 krytan events, take down 5 veterans, 2 group quests, 20 gathers, and 3 skill points?
- Queensdale is going to be busy that day...

But anything past it will be no busier than normal. In fact it can be argued that some of the living story items have the effect of herding everyone to one point and empyting out every spot BUT that spot and the daily spots.
- The only way to solve this would be to put living story content across many zones. They have done this, but the method has been, peculiar... its been 'run to spot and hit 'F'' for a lot of it. But it might be hard to do it otherwise... Unless they used the event system (and why haven't they...).


The real need for "Something" big, expac or huge content dump, or whatever... Is that right now we are missing 2/3rds of the core world map. Elona and Cantha - core pieces of the game lore.

This would be like WoW shipping without Kalimdor or any of the Eastern Kingdoms north of Ironforge. Elona and Cantha are tightly integrated into GW lore, even in GW2 lore, references are all over the place. These places were not like some expansion zone: Outlands or Northrend, that you visit to do one major plot arc and then never see again. They were core places with as much variation and lore than Kryta/Ascalon. Quite often they had -more- lore and variation than Kryta/Ascalon... and were more actively used by players and Arenanet.

Kamaden is arguably -THE- capital city of Guild Wars, not Lion's Arch. Possibly just an 'accident of better layout' and the ability to reach it by level 3 without getting a run to it.
- And for similar reason Shinf Jea monastery is the second top city. Again easy to reach, and the layout of Lion's Arch is just difficult. LA's layout is still poor in GW2...

For anyone with a love of Guild Wars as a setting, and even as a game if they remember all of the wide diverse things available in Guild Wars 1... there is a massive gaping hole in GW2... and we're not just talking about the hole in Divinity's Reach - though that's emblematic of the issue.

2/3rds of the game is missing...

Now how best to add that back in?

If you do it in tiny steps - gated semi-zone by semi-zone... each of them will end up being linear plot lines, and leave us with zones that lack the diversity of events seen in a Kryta/Ascalon zone. And then when that plot is done... we'll be left with Southsun Cove ghost towns...
- And that just doesn't do justice to the world of Guild Wars.

They need to come in with fully developed zones that have a "Living World" in them, and not a "Living Plotline".

#25 NineSpine

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 05:17 PM

View PostSimon1812, on 05 July 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

yeah, putting aside the faulty logic promoted by this topic,I can say I played GW1 with 2 characters (War and Ranger), experimented with other 3 but it didnt work, after exploring all of prophesies I called it quits.
  I wouldnt look back till factions was released, again I explored, I created new characters, finished the (rather short) campaign, did an unusually long time on PVP, and got the new armors for my fav characters, yet again I found myself in the same position I was before ,when i depleted all that continent offered, again I called it quits.
I stayed away from GW1 till Nightfalls released, probably my favorite campaign, with Nightfalls anet gave me the dervish class which i loved so much I would go back and complete prophecies and factions with my Derv. the prospect of doing all that content with a new class that I really enjoyed playing was great.

my point? a new campaign would revitalize the game, the ppl who have already completed the game and feelt they have had enough to justify uninstalling it and moving on, WONT COME BACK FOR ONE DUNGEON , AN SCAVENGER HUNT (the aetherbalde caches thing) AND ONE EXASPERATING JUMPING PUZZLE! no! not even if a new one happens every couple of months or whatever.
     on the other hand players will indeed come back to explore and discover a new world/continent, fight new threats become part of a new story line ,collect new weapons find new armors that will make them feel  unique and stand out in ways the previous sets coulndt (too many players not enough armor/weapons sets IMO). that being said, even if it is Anets intention to do that, it will take some time, and Im talking about years.

    from my point of view it is looking like Anet is trying to get away from a new campaign/continent approach  by experimenting with this living story things, release a new area  here, a dungeon there, go to places u already been  and so on, which are not necessarily bad things, they are just too little, and dont beat the scale of what would be a full release of a new campaign or continent.

just to clarify some little things, after reading some comments:


when it comes to GW1 the release of the later continents are counted as campaigns, why werent they expansions? a newcomer could buy either GW Factions or GW Nightfall without needing the original campaign (GW Prophecies) every campaign is independent. on the other hand to play GW:Eye of the North (the one and only actual expansion to GW1) one would be required to have at least one of the 3 previously released campaigns. in case u r wondering ,the story line would explaing how that would work...asura gates...u r shocked now, yeah ppl ask me that stuff.

small note, having the 3 campaigns was awesome and anet was able to exploit this pretty neatly by releasing some intercontinental quests and storyline.

PS

so sry if I actually made u read all of that :D

The thing is that all you did was say why expansions are rad. Sure, expansions are rad... Compared to doing nothing. That isn't the comparison here. We are talking about one expansion versus 48 living story chapters. We aren't talking about southsun OR an expansion. We are talking about probably two years of living story versus an expansion. Will an expansion bring some people back? Of course, but what you and the other people that jumped in only at the beginning of expansions missed was that as GW got bigger most of the game turned into more and more of a ghost town, because players were spread out all over the place, and the sheer size of the game made it awkward and intimidating for new players. Sure, it was super fun for the month after every expansion, but a persistent world game that's only fun a fraction of the time when players are funneled into one area isn't really a good thing.

#26 NineSpine

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 05:39 PM

View PostKichwas, on 05 July 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Zones end up empty when there is less incentive to go to them...
- This the OP has right, but it is a stretch to say this is a reason to avoid expansions.

Yes some events have brought life to zones that were otherwise going largely unused.
Dailies have also brought life to low level zones. Need to knock out 4 krytan events, take down 5 veterans, 2 group quests, 20 gathers, and 3 skill points?
- Queensdale is going to be busy that day...

But anything past it will be no busier than normal. In fact it can be argued that some of the living story items have the effect of herding everyone to one point and empyting out every spot BUT that spot and the daily spots.
- The only way to solve this would be to put living story content across many zones. They have done this, but the method has been, peculiar... its been 'run to spot and hit 'F'' for a lot of it. But it might be hard to do it otherwise... Unless they used the event system (and why haven't they...).


The real need for "Something" big, expac or huge content dump, or whatever... Is that right now we are missing 2/3rds of the core world map. Elona and Cantha - core pieces of the game lore.

This would be like WoW shipping without Kalimdor or any of the Eastern Kingdoms north of Ironforge. Elona and Cantha are tightly integrated into GW lore, even in GW2 lore, references are all over the place. These places were not like some expansion zone: Outlands or Northrend, that you visit to do one major plot arc and then never see again. They were core places with as much variation and lore than Kryta/Ascalon. Quite often they had -more- lore and variation than Kryta/Ascalon... and were more actively used by players and Arenanet.

Kamaden is arguably -THE- capital city of Guild Wars, not Lion's Arch. Possibly just an 'accident of better layout' and the ability to reach it by level 3 without getting a run to it.
- And for similar reason Shinf Jea monastery is the second top city. Again easy to reach, and the layout of Lion's Arch is just difficult. LA's layout is still poor in GW2...

For anyone with a love of Guild Wars as a setting, and even as a game if they remember all of the wide diverse things available in Guild Wars 1... there is a massive gaping hole in GW2... and we're not just talking about the hole in Divinity's Reach - though that's emblematic of the issue.

2/3rds of the game is missing...

Now how best to add that back in?

If you do it in tiny steps - gated semi-zone by semi-zone... each of them will end up being linear plot lines, and leave us with zones that lack the diversity of events seen in a Kryta/Ascalon zone. And then when that plot is done... we'll be left with Southsun Cove ghost towns...
- And that just doesn't do justice to the world of Guild Wars.

They need to come in with fully developed zones that have a "Living World" in them, and not a "Living Plotline".

2/3rds of the game is not missing. It's explained that cantha and elona were cut off. Northrend and Outland were vital to WoW lore. I don't know where you are getting this idea that they were just footnotes. Outland is WAY more important to WoW lore than Kalimdor. Kalimdor wasn't even mentioned until WC3.

#27 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 05:53 PM

View PostGerroh, on 04 July 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

GW2 needs . . . . . Isles of Janthir . . . . .

Agreed :lol:

I still think ANet would be well served to revamp the world boss encounters.  That seems to be where most people are spending their time, based on my observations.  Jumping from boss to boss, using timers that ANet is obviously encouraging us to use (the whole API they publicly hyped screams that).

And I don't just mean the boos battles themselves...although that would be lovely.  But the build up to them as well.  Create specific event chains that lead up to them.  Some do have that already, but they're pretty straightforward, easy to complete, and sometimes impossible to fail.  Make people work to get the boss to show, like in Orr temples, so people can't just jump from boss to boss at the last minute, but have to commit to an area for a period of time.  Maybe not even a linear chain, but something like the Karka Queen, where multiple chains have to be complete......however not as INSANE as Karka Queen, where the events reset far too quickly.  Just enough to force people to PLAY the maps (and not just the small corner where the boss spawns).  Spread the population, keep areas active.  And don't make EZ mode chains that you complete in 5min.

Then up the rewards to reward people for committing to an area.  Kill the megadestroyer?  Have that open up a vendor that sells destroyer cores/lodestones for 5-10min.  Kill the Eye of Zhaitan?  Get an automatic consumable reward that grants 100% magic find.  Spread out the rewards, and people that need certain things will populate those areas and commit to keeping them active.  It would be kind of cool if people started to learn the event chains and become like PvE commanders trying to direct multiple squads (not that anyone will listen lol).

Expansion.  No expansion.  Doesn't matter either way to me.  They can release a new map, expansion or no.  They can release a new profession, expansion or no.  Is an expansion much more than a large patch I have to pay for?  Maybe.  But maybe not.

Boy that was pretty non-committal of me. lol

#28 Mhenlo

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 06:02 PM

View PostNineSpine, on 04 July 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

It seems to me that everyone is overlooking a fairly obvious reason why Arenanet is shying away from expansions. GW2 is a community-oriented and the world is already too large for the number of players per server. It's ALREADY a pain trying to find people for anything but a handful of the current dungeon paths. It's ALREADY a pain trying to find people in the current zones. It's obvious that the correct model going forward is to EVOLVE existing content, not replace it with an expansion.

The Living Story allows ArenaNet to provide new content without that negative side effect. Temporary content can't spread players too thin, but it does allow for the current content to be improved on and evolved, although they have yet to tap into that capability in any substantive way.

I agree a lot. Had they kept a global server with overflows, I think it would be a lot better with the population thing, and that would help make expansions more viable. Also, I think it would have made WvW even more interesting. Instead of playing WvW between servers, it could have been set up between guilds or races or other things that might have made it way better than it is now.

#29 Jedibless

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 06:48 PM

View PostRitualist, on 04 July 2013 - 07:47 PM, said:

You have around 3 million GW2 games sold. If they put out an expansion, I doubt everyone would be buying it, which means we are most likely looking at around 1-2 mil purchases at around 30 bucks each.
It honestly wouldn't surprise me if the cash shop generated MORE revenue in the first few months than an expansion ever will and they certainly didn't put as much work into the cash shop stuff as they'd need to put into an expansion.


I would assume that the cash shop is where the big bucks come from and the expansion, if it comes, will just serve to push the cash shop.

Hmm good points! But i believe that an expansion that gives the players what they want (new races/class, more maps, hard endgame/raids?, rewarding gameplay, etc) would result in alot more sales which also will result in a larger, happy playerbase :)

#30 davadude

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 07:17 PM

View PostMhenlo, on 05 July 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

I agree a lot. Had they kept a global server with overflows, I think it would be a lot better with the population thing, and that would help make expansions more viable. Also, I think it would have made WvW even more interesting. Instead of playing WvW between servers, it could have been set up between guilds or races or other things that might have made it way better than it is now.

I don't know why, but I get the impression this is something they will do, keeping servers only for world versus world and to provide a locale to reduce latency by favoring matches/maps with local players.
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