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Permanent account bonuses - Treadmill?

account bonuses exp grind treadmill

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#1 kaldemeo

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:46 PM

Will the new permanent account bonuses be an unlimited treadmill, and how do you feel about it?
Is it is fair that players with a lot of achievement point gets rewarded more for killing monster than a player with less point killing the very same monster?

As Swoopeh points out the +stats are MF, GF, Karma and XP not Power, Prec, Vital and Toughnes

Edited by kaldemeo, 10 July 2013 - 01:41 PM.


#2 Desild

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 08:49 PM

View Postkaldemeo, on 09 July 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

Will the new permanent account bonuses be an unlimited treadmill, and how do you feel about it?

Nah, they won't. They are so insignificant it's like they aren't even there.

The game turning into Checklist Wars on the other hand... I can pass on that.

#3 ChuyDog08

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:42 PM

At the percentage rates we are seeing, they won't make a difference unless the percentages increase dramatically with every "unlock level".  Example, I was able to get over 425% MF during the Southsun event.  That included the 200% MF from the event, 50% MF from Bonfires (I think left over from F&F), Full MF gear, MF food, and MF Sigil fully charged.  I got just slightly better drops while farming the same areas as before the additional 250% addition.   I beleive what also helped make them better was the number of enemys we were able to clear in a short time period due to the number of people farming the area. So an increase of 1% here and 2% will add up, but not make a major difference.


+1 to Desild on the Checklist Wars.   I have over 7K in acheivement points because I worked on completing certain things when I got bored with regular game play.  I only completed the acheivements, during special/living story events, that I could without feeling the grind.  Now I am compelled to work on acheivements more and "grind" during the events.  The bad part is the temporary content keeps me busy almost 100% of the time now.  I wish they would slow down the content a litlle bit or make it permenant.  Three months is too long and two weeks is too short.

With all that said, I am happy with the direction the game is going, and will keep playing.

#4 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:35 AM

I am honestly just tired of stat-grind being A.Net's solution for everything.
That and jumping puzzles.

#5 Gerroh

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 06:51 AM

Anet gives people free shit.
Said people's response: "ermagerd treadmill"

#6 Swoopeh

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:18 AM

Yeah you could see every single (good) reward you can get by playing as a treadmill, but thats reaching rather far just to give it a negative spin. They could of course remove all forms of reward from the game, that will work really well to retain people. At least there wouldn't be a treadmill anywhere.

#7 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:50 AM

View PostSwoopeh, on 10 July 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

Yeah you could see every single (good) reward you can get by playing as a treadmill, but thats reaching rather far just to give it a negative spin. They could of course remove all forms of reward from the game, that will work really well to retain people. At least there wouldn't be a treadmill anywhere.


There's a difference between "remove all rewards" and "think about the rewards you are implementing".
1. Endgame is supposed to be vanity: +stats aren't vanity.
2. I am also bothered by the reward stacking to get additional rewards: I think a system that grants players a reward for doing something unique is much better than giving players a reward for obtaining rewards. Still, this would be much easier to swallow if we were dealing with vanity items only.

#8 cyclopsje

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:47 AM

What +stats are we talking about did i miss something

#9 Mastruq

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 08:51 AM

The new achievement system gives very negligible amounts of magic find and +xp and so on. Its not worth mentioning really.


Wish it was worthwhile and thus another longterm goal to work towards, but alas, its so little it might as well not be there. I would have prefered if they had used the space on the UI window to give more room to the "recently completed" category, since so far with 3 entries that is pointless and always filled with daily stuff.

#10 Lordkrall

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:48 AM

View Postcyclopsje, on 10 July 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

What +stats are we talking about did i miss something

They are talking about the +gold, xp, karma and magic find you unlock with APs.
Not any actual stats though.

#11 Shinimas

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:15 AM

Yeah, it's like they're not even there. They could've at least given better +XP boosts for leveling new characters.

#12 Arewn

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:50 AM

Tread...mill?
I had my suspicions when people were flipping out about ascended gear, but I'm really starting to think the vast majority of players don't understand the use of the word "treadmill" in the context of MMOs.

#13 ObscureThreat

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:27 AM

Yeah its not really a treadmill. These stats don't give you an advantage other than a few extra copper and karma. There are other things to complain about in the game, this isn't one of them.

#14 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:45 AM

As I have said before, the problem with GW2 grind is that stat increases stop making sense at around lvl 20 or or 30 (if you want to stretch it a bit just for the elite). After that, we are just grinding stats for the sake of grinding them. So the stats grind problem doesn't really start at 80, where you get slight stats boost in the form of WvW grind, ascendeed grind and now achievement grind: this is extra grind that follows 50 or 60 levels of already unnecessary grind.

We really don't need to additionally cater to the folks that adore grinding, because the game already caters to these individuals from the lvl 20/30 on.

#15 pumpkin pie

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:04 PM

How can this suddenly becomes a thread mill when it* has always been there? ArenaNet just decided that they wanted  to give the player something more for playing the game.


*it = the achievement points.

#16 Culture Shock

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:45 PM

The word "grind" is also over worked in this thread, especially since you get xp for just playing the game rather than killing a particular animal over and over.  In fact there is nothing in this game that forces you to grind anything unless you count "playing the game" as grinding.  People mistake "their own" desire to get something done fast as grind, which ignores the meaning of grind.  Grind :  "forcing one to perform a monotonous task repeatedly to progress".  Keeping up with the Jones's is fulfilling your own desires and not necessary to enjoy GW2.

Edited by Feathermoore, 18 July 2013 - 07:30 PM.
Removed unneeded personal attacks


#17 Swoopeh

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:10 PM

View PostRitualist, on 10 July 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

There's a difference between "remove all rewards" and "think about the rewards you are implementing".
1. Endgame is supposed to be vanity: +stats aren't vanity.
2. I am also bothered by the reward stacking to get additional rewards: I think a system that grants players a reward for doing something unique is much better than giving players a reward for obtaining rewards. Still, this would be much easier to swallow if we were dealing with vanity items only.

There's also a difference between "think about the rewards you are implementing" and "omg treadmill!" as the OP seems to imply. The account bonus is more along the lines of getting other means of magic find than stats on gear and food buffs, seeing as there has been a lot of discussion on how bad the MF stat is and Anet actually agreeing with that. You're assuming they'll implement +power/+prec/etc as account bonus but there's no indication they will do that as that would create unfair advantages in PvP. Right now it looks like MF/GF/Karma gain and XP gain only, so basically a type of permanent pots. It's actually quite clever in a way: the longer you play while getting achievement points the easier it will get to gain loot/gold/karma/xp.

I agree that the system gets a bit convoluted if you reward players for getting rewards (or in a different perspective: turning achievement points into yet another currency), but as long as the UI is clear what does it matter? The achievement points are now simply a proxy for the new rewards.

#18 Moryc

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:27 PM

I'm amazed by all the complaining going on here. I'm leveling my third hero, and not even once during the two 80s and another 50 lvls have i felt like I'm grinding. Maybe it's because I didn't do 100% completion on my first run, and it takes about 1/3 of the locations to actually ding the max level, so I'm stumbling into new places still.

I gues it's all in the mindset anyway. The idea of achievement rewards was like "Hey, have some nice lil things for the stuff you've done and still keep doing!" for me, but apparently for some people it's more like "NEW CURRENCY?! THEY MAKE ME GRIND MORE THINGZ! CURSE YOU ANET!". Sadly, I think some of the people on this forum won't enjoy GW2. Ever. It's just not a game for you. It's a game for people who like to stroll in a beautiful word, explore it, and maybe after doing it just come back once in a month or two weeks to just check out this new temporal location and play around for a few hours. This is not a hardcore mmo. It was never meant to be one. There are some challenging additions like fractals, but still they're just additions. I wouldn't be satisfied if I had to really grind to get to do most of the things in the game. Even if I got some 1337 gear for it. That's why I never liked hardcore mmos. Some people just don't have time for that. So...

TL;DR
Sit back for a minute Mr. Forum Reader, and think if GW2 is a game for you.

For me the answer is yes. So it is for the vast majority of GW2 players. You just don't see a lot of them posting on forums. You see them playing.

#19 kaldemeo

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:34 PM

View PostSwoopeh, on 10 July 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

There's also a difference between "think about the rewards you are implementing" and "omg treadmill!" as the OP seems to imply.
I agree that the word treadmill didn't do anything good for this discussion. I have tried to frame the topic different.

#20 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:51 PM

View PostSwoopeh, on 10 July 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

You're assuming they'll implement +power/+prec/etc as account bonus but there's no indication they will do that as that would create unfair advantages in PvP. Right now it looks like MF/GF/Karma gain and XP gain only, so basically a type of permanent pots. It's actually quite clever in a way: the longer you play while getting achievement points the easier it will get to gain loot/gold/karma/xp.

I am perfectly aware that all these bonuses grant is more gold/xp/karma/.. and not power.
The problem is that there's absolutely no reason to not want these stats: they make your characters better. For instance, when talking about vanity items, they make you prettier and guy with the prettiest armour is doesn't get any extra game bonuses. So if you don't like said pretty, there's no reason to not get it.
But as I said, there's no reason to not want these bonuses because having them makes your characters better at no downside.


Do we really need more features that reward players for wasting tons of their time on the game? Especially if these rewards have a game-affecting result and if we are getting said rewards instead of vanity ones.



(Now, obviously, I do not plan on grinding these things, because I consider the amount of time needed to grind them to be a complete waste: but this now means my characters haven't plateaued. Of course, the fact that my characters now aren't even reaching the power plateau (result of ascended (and the aforementioned lvl 80 grind)/WvW grind) is more distressing than the fact that I am getting less gold, but this certainly isn't helping. It puts GW2 into a different category of games: games where grinders are supposed to get the best results and honestly, there are much better games out there that give grinders this feeling. And now GW2 is competing with those games and that's why we are seeing power seeing power creep in balancing and we are seeing the above mentioned stats creep. Come on, we've already been down this road and it certainly didn't end peachy for GW1. Why make the same dumb-ass mistakes all over again, A.Net?)

#21 Cevilo

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:33 PM

tbh I don't see what the issue is. any one who's been playing this game, is just racking in a bunch of free stuff over the next few days. I don't see what this what "grind" discussion is about either. I've played the game a little more than 1k hours sense launch. played it the way it was meant to be played, enjoyed the monthly released content as it came and I'm sitting on about 6k AP I didn't grind out ettins or any other slayer to get the few points. every thing just happened on its own while I was doing things I enjoyed. one thing I never got around to, Jumping puzzles. not because I don't like them. just never took the time to look for them, so I have a achievement box that's more or less empty because I only did 3-4 jumping puzzles. I honestly don't think I'm going to be missing out on much (or any thing) by not grinding out these achievements for that 1% bonus to xxxx I like the idea that time invested in the game will help me later if/when they release another Class for me to level up. I can see how a noob would easily be like ZOMFG! ACCOUNT REWARDS *GRINDGRINDGRIND* the currency you get from the achievements would be a GREAT help early on. but I feel for an established player the rewards are trivial at best, and the main reward to establish their "E-Peen" in game will be the Vanity weapons/Armor offered for use.

#22 Illein

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:48 PM

Calling it a "Treadmill" is quite the hyperbole. I personally couldn't care less about up to 20 % of any such benefits. I don't get any rares with +400% MF because the whole looting system is utterly bad, that it really doesn't make much of a difference.

The other ones are "nice to have" however, but nothing I'd ever consider a "must have".

#23 Featherman

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:14 PM

Repeating tasks infinitely for marginal gains...haven't the achievement system always been a treadmill? The only difference now is that it grants more appealing rewards than a numbers increase.

Edited by Featherman, 10 July 2013 - 09:18 PM.


#24 Azure Skye

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:40 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 10 July 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

Repeating tasks infinitely for marginal gains...haven't the achievement system always been a treadmill? The only difference now is that it grants more appealing rewards than a numbers increase.
And they weren't using it at all. i was wondering when they were going to use the achievement points as currency or something else to be used for armor. or stuff in a vendor, crap like that.

Till they added the leaderboards now, you didn't know before, what people had in achievements points from the general population in the game.

#25 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:44 PM

Is there a cap on these account bonuses?  Do we even know yet?  If not, it seems a bit heavy handed to say these bonuses are insignificant.  1% MF may not amount to much, but if it eventually grows to 100% MF--or is boundless--I'd say that's VERY significant, being that it's permanent, account-wide, and doesn't detract from any other stats.

But I don't care if I only have 1% MF right now.  It SHOULD grow slowly.  Otherwise people would max it out in a week, and it would be ho-hum, let's move on.

Also, addressing the OP, I do think it's fair, because Achievement Points are awarded for playing the game.  And more are awarded faster for playing a wide variety of content.  It's not hard to get full Exo gear (whether it's by karma or gold), so the AP bonuses don't really get you a better character, but can get you some of the more grindy cosmetic gear (Forge weapons, legendaries, etc...).

That's my opinion at least.  Yours may differ.

#26 The Shadow

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:59 PM

The only thing that's unfair about this system, imo, is the fact that PvP players (no matter how many champion classes they have) will still have far less achievement points than anyone who does PvE casually.

Of course, a PvP player wouldn't care about magic-find or gold-find. But they might want access to Zenith/ Radiant skins. As it stands I don't think people who purely PvP will be able to attain those things.

But that's always been the case with PvP. You can bring PvE items into PvP but not vice versa and if a PvP player wants access to items attained only through PvE, well they're essentially forced to PvE.

#27 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:26 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 10 July 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

The only thing that's unfair about this system, imo, is the fact that PvP players (no matter how many champion classes they have) will still have far less achievement points than anyone who does PvE casually.

Of course, a PvP player wouldn't care about magic-find or gold-find. But they might want access to Zenith/ Radiant skins. As it stands I don't think people who purely PvP will be able to attain those things.

But that's always been the case with PvP. You can bring PvE items into PvP but not vice versa and if a PvP player wants access to items attained only through PvE, well they're essentially forced to PvE.

That's because the Achievement buff is part of their strategy to keep the PvE players invested in the game.

Are the skins even wearable in sPvP?

Their strategy for sPvP is to get the game accepted as legitimate by the eSports community, hence the development for the custom arena servers and adding a spectator mode.  They seem to believe that if they can get a following that's even a fraction of LoL's, then people will play because if watching it was fun, so maybe playing it will be.

Edited by MazingerZ, 10 July 2013 - 10:27 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#28 Lordkrall

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:27 PM

View PostThe Shadow, on 10 July 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

The only thing that's unfair about this system, imo, is the fact that PvP players (no matter how many champion classes they have) will still have far less achievement points than anyone who does PvE casually.

Of course, a PvP player wouldn't care about magic-find or gold-find. But they might want access to Zenith/ Radiant skins. As it stands I don't think people who purely PvP will be able to attain those things.

But that's always been the case with PvP. You can bring PvE items into PvP but not vice versa and if a PvP player wants access to items attained only through PvE, well they're essentially forced to PvE.

They will, it will just take longer.
They still have dailies in sPvP after all, and they all give APs.

#29 Culture Shock

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:28 PM

Not to mention that doing achievements = free stuff.  I happen to like killing spiders because they are icky, so I took great pleasure in eliminating hordes of them over and over.. lol.  Bottom line achievements are there for you to "enjoy" if you "want to" not because you "have to", and that makes all the difference.

Edited by Culture Shock, 10 July 2013 - 10:29 PM.


#30 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:43 PM

View PostCulture Shock, on 10 July 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

Not to mention that doing achievements = free stuff.  I happen to like killing spiders because they are icky, so I took great pleasure in eliminating hordes of them over and over.. lol.  Bottom line achievements are there for you to "enjoy" if you "want to" not because you "have to", and that makes all the difference.

They're there to challenge you.  At least initially.  Nowadays you can get video game achievements by putting the disc in the drive.

Most of these achievements apparently mean you wasted your time in an ArenaNet approved repetitive fashion.

I looked through the Achievements and the only thing I could find that seem remotely challenging are completing the Jumping Puzzles or the Southsun achievement Lair Light-Foot.  Most of them seem to be tests of endurance into monotony than the perfect execution of a complex series of movements over the course of a five minute fight.  "Find this," "Find that," "Speak to this person," are the most common ones for the Bazaar.  Speedy Sprinter seems to be the only one you can possibly fail and have to start from the beginning again.

Edited by MazingerZ, 10 July 2013 - 10:43 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"




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