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#31 Featherman

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:59 PM

They're there to challenge you. At least initially. Nowadays you can get video game achievements by putting the disc in the drive.

Most of these achievements apparently mean you wasted your time in an ArenaNet approved repetitive fashion.

I looked through the Achievements and the only thing I could find that seem remotely challenging are completing the Jumping Puzzles or the Southsun achievement Lair Light-Foot. Most of them seem to be tests of endurance into monotony than the perfect execution of a complex series of movements over the course of a five minute fight. "Find this," "Find that," "Speak to this person," are the most common ones for the Bazaar. Speedy Sprinter seems to be the only one you can possibly fail and have to start from the beginning again.

There's also this crazy notion that they're there to replace quests as well. Given that the narratives of all LS updates up till now (haven't played Four Winds) are regimented and delivered through achievements I think ANet follows this mentality as well. The pitfalls of this become obvious as you play the game as interactions with the world are substituted with interactions with the UI. Initiating your daily through your achievements window rather than a Zaishan agent is just one less avenue to connect the player to the world every day. So much for "play the game not the UI." :P But you get rewards and free stuff. That's all that matters apparently.

Edited by Featherman, 10 July 2013 - 11:03 PM.

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#32 Rytlock Bigpaw

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:11 PM

The bonuses are almost irrelevant. What I care is the skins or a possible precursor from the 5k achivment points or higher
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#33 lmaonade

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:45 PM

I wish they were a treadmill, that way I could get fit while playing GW2!
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#34 The Shadow

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 11:47 PM

They will, it will just take longer.
They still have dailies in sPvP after all, and they all give APs.


That's kind of my point though, it isn't fair.

You should be rewarded the same, especially since being good at TPvP is comparatively harder than being good at PvE (if that is even possible). Let's save that debate for a different thread though.
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#35 Eliirae

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 12:43 AM

That's kind of my point though, it isn't fair.

You should be rewarded the same, especially since being good at TPvP is comparatively harder than being good at PvE (if that is even possible). Let's save that debate for a different thread though.


The interesting thing about this is that I doubt PVPers even care what their weapons look like. They could be wielding a stick with a single green leaf on it if it had the most damage.

Also yeah, if they don't have a PVP version of the skin giving PVPers the weapons wouldn't matter anyway.
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#36 The Shadow

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:01 AM

The interesting thing about this is that I doubt PVPers even care what their weapons look like. They could be wielding a stick with a single green leaf on it if it had the most damage.

Also yeah, if they don't have a PVP version of the skin giving PVPers the weapons wouldn't matter anyway.


PvPers do care about the gear they use. There are 3 reasons for that. I don't do PvE anymore, I only do PvP now and I still want pretty things.

1) It's a sign of status/ rank.
2) You can have a "look" which distinguishes you from the rest. That's why you see massive norns with humiliation dye (though highly un-original at this point, MiM Mouby, is an example of this, have you seen team UGLY? They aren't exactly pretty).
3) Who wants to look like ass? How many top PvPers do you see wearing PvP start gear/ weps? None.

I use my Dwayna Shortbow instead of all the other possibilities because it's a rare chest drop or very low chance paid-tournament-token MF craft. I wear full Orrian because, again, it's the hardest armor to craft with paid tokens. Most rank 50s wear full CoF (means very little in PvE as it's easy to attain), r50 in PvP however, is not terribly easy to attain. People who got the molten gloves from chests wear them, not for aesthetic appeal but because, again, they were a rare, time-limited drop from tournament chests.

Some PvPers who were in the top 100 of the leaderboards were awarded with cultural armor (which is otherwise only attainable by being rank 80 (which takes over 3 years to achieve, PvPing everyday)) and they like to show that off as well as with their title Challenger/ Veteran of The Arena.

A lot of other PvPers who stream and have a following, Teldo is a prime example, are often given high-end items from PvE(like the Ghastly Grinning Shield, worth over 300g) and transfer them into PvP because I doubt they have any interest in PvE.

So yes, if they introduced skins that were attainable only in PvE, into PvP, with a challenge attached (i.e. certain amount of tournaments won) many PvPers would probably appreciate the ability to further distinguish themselves and show off their success.

E-peen/ aesthetics matter to competitive gamers too, trust me, they just do. Furthermore, what's the reason for aesthetics not meaning anything to anyone who prefers PvP to PvE?

Edited by The Shadow, 11 July 2013 - 01:06 AM.

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#37 Miragee

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:08 PM

Anyway, you don't have to grind achievement points actively. You get them inherently by playing the game. The bonuses they offer are so tiny, I honestly don't see why people could possibly care so much about 1% magic find. People just find a way to complain about everything, it's rather sad.


I personally got to a point where only a few Achievements are avaiable to get, while just playing the game. WvW Achievements are to the point where it take hundreds of hours to achieve the next rank. PvP the same (and I don't like it, so I won't do it). Exploring is done, Hero/Crafting and such are nearly done.
Dailies are pretty much grind, there are very few dailies that I can get if I want to just play the game. But they are one area to get still points from. The other area would be living story, which is by far the most important one at this level of achievement points. And hell, the living crap achievements are 90% grind - at least. I didn't bother the half of the dragon bash achievements and it will get less and less because they are so much unfun grind (no more or less forced) I can see the names checklist wars 2 and grind wars 2 completly underlined. LS offers no content, grindy achievements with a system that wants to force you doing them. And that all is seen as "free major content updates every 2 weeks" from good uncle anet.

Seriously, they should just stop this bullcrap, start an Addon immediately that completly revamps skill and combat system, offers a compelling story, remove hearts and rework the eventsystem to be what they originally said it would be.
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#38 Isolani

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:33 PM

The only thing that's unfair about this system, imo, is the fact that PvP players (no matter how many champion classes they have) will still have far less achievement points than anyone who does PvE casually.

Of course, a PvP player wouldn't care about magic-find or gold-find. But they might want access to Zenith/ Radiant skins. As it stands I don't think people who purely PvP will be able to attain those things.

But that's always been the case with PvP. You can bring PvE items into PvP but not vice versa and if a PvP player wants access to items attained only through PvE, well they're essentially forced to PvE.


I can see the angle that you are coming from and agree the distribution is skewed towards PvE, however does that affect PvPers in a profound manner?

This is a mass generalisation, but don't PvPers usually stick to 1 or 2 preferred classes (please shout at me if you are a player who uses all the classes for diversity in PvP) whereas a PvE person can happily main upwards of 4 characters? If so surely there is less necessity to have massive rewards of free skins for PvP. For the reason that people often like skins for their status, rather than how they look in PvP would that not mean that PvPers would look down upon using Zenith weapons as the first one is attainable after 1000 achievement points (which I would wager is not impossible to achieve in PvP alone). I can see a problem if they introduce a larger variety of skins at higher achievement point caps however.

Regarding the OP - I don't personally see a problem with awarding generic small scale efficiency bonuses for long time players, as has already been stated the current bonus is negligible at best, but its a nice gesture. Time will tell whether these bonuses remain linear or increase exponentially. If the former is adhered to, there probably will be very little impact on the current economics, however if the latter is pursued then I can foresee a very tricky time for new players as it would not be inconceivable that Anet would reduce drop rates on certain items to accommodate for certain players having massive MF/Gold Find boosts.

Edited by Isolani, 11 July 2013 - 01:36 PM.

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#39 The Shadow

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:57 PM

I can see the angle that you are coming from and agree the distribution is skewed towards PvE, however does that affect PvPers in a profound manner?

This is a mass generalisation, but don't PvPers usually stick to 1 or 2 preferred classes (please shout at me if you are a player who uses all the classes for diversity in PvP) whereas a PvE person can happily main upwards of 4 characters? If so surely there is less necessity to have massive rewards of free skins for PvP. For the reason that people often like skins for their status, rather than how they look in PvP would that not mean that PvPers would look down upon using Zenith weapons as the first one is attainable after 1000 achievement points (which I would wager is not impossible to achieve in PvP alone). I can see a problem if they introduce a larger variety of skins at higher achievement point caps however.

Regarding the OP - I don't personally see a problem with awarding generic small scale efficiency bonuses for long time players, as has already been stated the current bonus is negligible at best, but its a nice gesture. Time will tell whether these bonuses remain linear or increase exponentially. If the former is adhered to, there probably will be very little impact on the current economics, however if the latter is pursued then I can foresee a very tricky time for new players as it would not be inconceivable that Anet would reduce drop rates on certain items to accommodate for certain players having massive MF/Gold Find boosts.


You are right, I only play Thief and Engineer in TPvP but that doesn't justify the point though. Free skins are free skins and everyone should have equal access to them whether they play just WvW, just PvE or just PvP. If you put in the same amount of time in, in any part of the game, you should get the same things/ equivalent back out of it, right?

Or they should give PvPers a way of attaining them via actual achievement in PvP (pick a zenith item when you get a champion title/ certain amount of tournament wins) as opposed to time-sink in PvE which then converts to PvP.

You know how there's that Agent of Entropy repeatable achievement? Every 200 salvages you get some AP, why don't they just do the same thing in PvP but with tournament games won or something to that effect?
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#40 NineSpine

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 02:13 PM

I personally got to a point where only a few Achievements are avaiable to get, while just playing the game. WvW Achievements are to the point where it take hundreds of hours to achieve the next rank. PvP the same (and I don't like it, so I won't do it). Exploring is done, Hero/Crafting and such are nearly done.
Dailies are pretty much grind, there are very few dailies that I can get if I want to just play the game. But they are one area to get still points from. The other area would be living story, which is by far the most important one at this level of achievement points. And hell, the living crap achievements are 90% grind - at least. I didn't bother the half of the dragon bash achievements and it will get less and less because they are so much unfun grind (no more or less forced) I can see the names checklist wars 2 and grind wars 2 completly underlined. LS offers no content, grindy achievements with a system that wants to force you doing them. And that all is seen as "free major content updates every 2 weeks" from good uncle anet.

Seriously, they should just stop this bullcrap, start an Addon immediately that completly revamps skill and combat system, offers a compelling story, remove hearts and rework the eventsystem to be what they originally said it would be.


You are really just asking for a different game. The overhauls you want aren't feasible.
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#41 Isolani

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 02:40 PM

You are right, I only play Thief and Engineer in TPvP but that doesn't justify the point though. Free skins are free skins and everyone should have equal access to them whether they play just WvW, just PvE or just PvP. If you put in the same amount of time in, in any part of the game, you should get the same things/ equivalent back out of it, right?



Hmmm that's an interesting point you raise, and part of me agrees with this sentiment, but the other part of me thinks that a diverse varied player should have more achievements than someone who sticks to 1 mode of the game. What I would prefer to see is equal opportunity across the modes so that:

[100% achievement points in PvE = 100% achievement points in PvP = 100% achievement points in WvW].

What we need for that though is for the content levels to be equal across the board and I would argue that this is not the case. PvP for example, as many have pointed out , only has 1 mode. This I believe is stifling a lot of peoples enjoyment of this section of the game (mine included). I have lots of ideas about different game modes and would welcome a killzone 2 style of All Modes in 1 match idea for certain torney play (leading to a wider diversity of builds for characters rather than the bunker point holders we see now).

So the long and short is that I believe people who do more of the game should have more points, I just want Anet to flesh out PvP and WvW to the same content variety as is seen in PvE.

(on the point of achievements perhaps additional achievements could be added per map for PvP like rounds played /rounds won on certain maps, that would add some more figures for PvP)

Edited by Isolani, 11 July 2013 - 02:41 PM.

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#42 Miragee

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:36 PM

You are really just asking for a different game. The overhauls you want aren't feasible.


Just asking for the game they said it would be. I see how they won't revamp skill and combat system. But for the last three things: They should do that and it's very possible to do that.
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#43 NineSpine

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 06:13 PM

Just asking for the game they said it would be. I see how they won't revamp skill and combat system. But for the last three things: They should do that and it's very possible to do that.


I was mainly referring to revamping the the combat system and skills. I'd like nothing more than to see them remove renown hearts and make every zone like Orr. It's just not realistic though. It's one thing to call for future content to be based on the events-only model, but its different to ask for a restructuring of the entire world.

Also I think that your points about the LS being Grindy have been negated by this patch. There's little to no grind in this LS and the stupid achievements are pretty much gone.
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#44 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 06:45 PM

Seriously, they should just stop this bullcrap, start an Addon immediately that completly revamps skill and combat system, offers a compelling story, remove hearts and rework the eventsystem to be what they originally said it would be.


Hell, with their focus on the LS, they could use this chance and work on actually giving us the GW2 that they should have launched with (by fixing all the issues you mention) instead of giving us tons of forgettable, new temporary content.
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#45 Miragee

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 07:55 PM

I was mainly referring to revamping the the combat system and skills. I'd like nothing more than to see them remove renown hearts and make every zone like Orr. It's just not realistic though. It's one thing to call for future content to be based on the events-only model, but its different to ask for a restructuring of the entire world.

Also I think that your points about the LS being Grindy have been negated by this patch. There's little to no grind in this LS and the stupid achievements are pretty much gone.


1. It should have been that way from begin with. I know it will be difficult but that's their own fault (and NCSoft's).

2. No. That point stock piled over all events. I really dislike achievements already. They fake content where there is none. And Anet tops that all. It began with halloween and pulled through every single Event/LS part: Kill X/Y and press F at random shit X/Y. Every single event. They just changed numbers and names... Is that content? No, it is an insult. They should have left the achievements out of the game and kept the title system of gw1. Longtime motivation, some easier to obtain, some hard to obtain, and ranks in titles (like the pvp titles in gw2). Titles that mean something. Now we have a system, where achievements fake content, are grindy as hell, and are needed to get a certain reward while titles are meaningless due to easy being obtainable/stupid things to do for (200g in chest for example) and sound terrible bad (beside a few like some pvp titles and HoM).
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#46 NineSpine

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:03 PM

1. It should have been that way from begin with. I know it will be difficult but that's their own fault (and NCSoft's).


Whether it "should" have been that way doesn't matter, and it's totally subjective. It isn't that way, and it isn't going to be. Spending time deliberating which impossibilities would be best isn't constructive.

It's very clear that at some point in development ANet realized that the model of events-only wasn't going to work. It could be for reasons that neither of us could figure out without being in that room. It could be because of mistakes they made early, like maybe making the world too large. It could be that playtesters didn't like it because it isn't actually as fun as it sounds to you and I. This seems likely becasue early comments about instituting renown hearts had to do with players getting lost and bored in zones with just events, and Orr is the only zone designed like this yet is a ghost town most of the time so if our idea is so great why isn't Orr constantly pakced with players? We could speculate all day about why they didn't do it, but it really doesn't matter. They could have reasons that would make both of us look like idiots for suggesting otherwise, or maybe they don't. Either way, that isn't what the game is and it isn't what the game is ever going to be. Move on.

2. No. That point stock piled over all events. I really dislike achievements already. They fake content where there is none. And Anet tops that all. It began with halloween and pulled through every single Event/LS part: Kill X/Y and press F at random shit X/Y. Every single event. They just changed numbers and names... Is that content? No, it is an insult. They should have left the achievements out of the game and kept the title system of gw1. Longtime motivation, some easier to obtain, some hard to obtain, and ranks in titles (like the pvp titles in gw2). Titles that mean something. Now we have a system, where achievements fake content, are grindy as hell, and are needed to get a certain reward while titles are meaningless due to easy being obtainable/stupid things to do for (200g in chest for example) and sound terrible bad (beside a few like some pvp titles and HoM).


The current LS doesn't have grindy achievements. You can keep saying it does, but it doesn't. It's very clear that ANet took that criticism to heart and is moving away from the dumb achievements. In fact, the current LS is fairly robust, ties thematically and story-wise into previous events, conveniently addresses or starts to address some of the problems with the economy and crafting, integrates extremely well with the existing world, and is extremely well designed from a polish perspective,. Even the WvW players I know have spent most of the last couple of days doing it. It really does address most of the significant issues people have raised with the LS and shows how the LS can be used to upgrade the existing game and provide reasonably polished content on a tight schedule.
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#47 The Shadow

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:46 PM

snip


I agree entirely. Someone who WvWs and PvPs as well as PvEs should have more AP than anyone who dedicates themselves to just one of the three.

Currently though, people who dedicate themselves just to PvE will have more AP than those that dedicate themselves to both PvP and WvW combined. That isn't right imo. And the reason it's like that is not because there isn't enough WvW/ PvP content. It's because Anet deals with the Achievement system poorly in those areas. There are plenty of creative PvP/ WvW achievements I could think of that would actually be fun and require skill to achieve.

For example:

1) /Rank or /Dance or /Laugh over x amount of corpses
2) Get a kill-streak - Kill 5 players 0 deaths, kill 10 players 0 deaths, etc..
3) Go a whole tournament without dying/ getting downed once.
4) Capture all 3 points in a game.
5) Defend and keep 3 points for an entire game.
6) Down 2 players at the same time, down 3 players at the same time, etc..

I mean those are all achievements you'd get in other games and mmos right? Wouldn't exactly be hard to put them in place.

And yet the best things Anet can think of are; win 150 tournies as profession x and win 10,000 tournies? By the way, any idea how long it'd take to actually win 10,000 tournies? It's highly unlikely that anyone will ever get that.

But again, quantity over quality, right Anet? Repairing a wall with 102931023910190 supply or killing 100,000 players or winning 10,000 tournies requires more skill than it does time-sink, right?
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#48 NineSpine

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 02:02 AM

I agree entirely. Someone who WvWs and PvPs as well as PvEs should have more AP than anyone who dedicates themselves to just one of the three.

Currently though, people who dedicate themselves just to PvE will have more AP than those that dedicate themselves to both PvP and WvW combined. That isn't right imo. And the reason it's like that is not because there isn't enough WvW/ PvP content. It's because Anet deals with the Achievement system poorly in those areas. There are plenty of creative PvP/ WvW achievements I could think of that would actually be fun and require skill to achieve.

For example:

1) /Rank or /Dance or /Laugh over x amount of corpses
2) Get a kill-streak - Kill 5 players 0 deaths, kill 10 players 0 deaths, etc..
3) Go a whole tournament without dying/ getting downed once.
4) Capture all 3 points in a game.
5) Defend and keep 3 points for an entire game.
6) Down 2 players at the same time, down 3 players at the same time, etc..

I mean those are all achievements you'd get in other games and mmos right? Wouldn't exactly be hard to put them in place.

And yet the best things Anet can think of are; win 150 tournies as profession x and win 10,000 tournies? By the way, any idea how long it'd take to actually win 10,000 tournies? It's highly unlikely that anyone will ever get that.

But again, quantity over quality, right Anet? Repairing a wall with 102931023910190 supply or killing 100,000 players or winning 10,000 tournies requires more skill than it does time-sink, right?


I think you need to relax. PvE simply lends itself more to achievements than PvP does, because you don't want to put players in a situation where they feel like they have to win-trade to farm achievements. On top of that, the variety of things that you can make achievements for in PvP is significantly smaller than it is in PvE. There's certainly room for improvement, but you seem to be convinced that they won't add new PvP achievements for some reason, and that assumption is completely baseless.
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#49 Miragee

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 07:49 AM

Whether it "should" have been that way doesn't matter, and it's totally subjective. It isn't that way, and it isn't going to be. Spending time deliberating which impossibilities would be best isn't constructive.

It's very clear that at some point in development ANet realized that the model of events-only wasn't going to work. It could be for reasons that neither of us could figure out without being in that room. It could be because of mistakes they made early, like maybe making the world too large. It could be that playtesters didn't like it because it isn't actually as fun as it sounds to you and I. This seems likely becasue early comments about instituting renown hearts had to do with players getting lost and bored in zones with just events, and Orr is the only zone designed like this yet is a ghost town most of the time so if our idea is so great why isn't Orr constantly pakced with players? We could speculate all day about why they didn't do it, but it really doesn't matter. They could have reasons that would make both of us look like idiots for suggesting otherwise, or maybe they don't. Either way, that isn't what the game is and it isn't what the game is ever going to be. Move on.


What? That's not subjective in any way. That is what anet dev's said mutiple times before the game was launching. I know that they created the reknown hearts pretty late because of cb tester. And I think they shouldn't have done it. They wanted to break the chains of the current mmo checklist-quest system. I don't know if you ever played games without questmarks. I for one started playing some of them pretty late (after playing a lot of games with) and was soo surprised how it actually play into the immersion of the game. Then you suddenly realise how much tunnel vision quest marks create.
Anet had the decision: Break the chains or go the old way to get the most (blind) costumers possible. They desided for money. I agree, people would have cried in the first place but those who stick and come in later would have learned. Now we have the exact oppsite with a player base "Ahhh I don't know what I should do here and where I should go" while a FAT golden star on the map is pointing towards the target, a mail says were you have to go and has a button that moves the map to center the start and shows where it is.

I should move on. Hope is dwindeling more and more. But where? Are there any alternatives that make it better? I'm playing mostly gw1 at the moment but that game won't get any updates ever again (despite their promise before gw2 launch). I'm hoping for ArchAge but there is already much I dislike. Maybe you can get me some help?

The current LS doesn't have grindy achievements. You can keep saying it does, but it doesn't. It's very clear that ANet took that criticism to heart and is moving away from the dumb achievements. In fact, the current LS is fairly robust, ties thematically and story-wise into previous events, conveniently addresses or starts to address some of the problems with the economy and crafting, integrates extremely well with the existing world, and is extremely well designed from a polish perspective,. Even the WvW players I know have spent most of the last couple of days doing it. It really does address most of the significant issues people have raised with the LS and shows how the LS can be used to upgrade the existing game and provide reasonably polished content on a tight schedule.


I'm a WvW player in an active WvW guild. Everyone there does it now because they would otherwise miss this because it's temporary. It has grindy achievements. 2 of them are just do the sprint mutiple times. Nothing like points for a long term over arching minigame title. 7 of them are: Repeat old mini dungeons and jumping puzzles you wouldn't do otherwise. Making crystals, repeat. And the rest of them are just a checklist what to do...They improved their f-click achievement to be more fun though, I agree.
For the rest: Polish wise? It's still buggy espacially the jumping skills. The transition between to LS chapters are very hard, it's like the living story. The chapters don't really feel connected to each other. They don't move the story forward in any way. And they are simply bad integrated in the existing world from lore perspective. They try to make some cheap explainations but in the end it's just a new evil with no depth, no twists, no strong remarkable characters, nothing gets explained and the evil is gone at the end of the chapter with leave nothing behind so the world feels as they weren't even there. I don't see this geting any better with this update (only regarding it's part as a LS chapter).
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#50 NineSpine

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:33 AM

Spoiler


Mod edit: Please refrain from posting in this manner. We refer to it as "quote wars" and it usually detracts from a conversation.

Edited by Feathermoore, 12 July 2013 - 03:03 PM.

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#51 Miragee

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 12:40 PM

Spoiler


Mod Edit: please refrain from quote wars.

Edited by Feathermoore, 12 July 2013 - 03:03 PM.

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#52 The Shadow

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 01:56 PM

I think you need to relax. PvE simply lends itself more to achievements than PvP does, because you don't want to put players in a situation where they feel like they have to win-trade to farm achievements. On top of that, the variety of things that you can make achievements for in PvP is significantly smaller than it is in PvE. There's certainly room for improvement, but you seem to be convinced that they won't add new PvP achievements for some reason, and that assumption is completely baseless.


I am relaxed, don't know what made you think otherwise.

I disagree with everything you have written, entirely.

Compare the amount of updates that WvW/ PvE get to the updates PvP has received (very few, literally nothing good, skyhammer is a complete joke and shouldn't be a tournament map, just like spirit watch) and you'll realize that my assumption is not at all baseless.

Please take deep breaths and relax when replying.
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#53 NineSpine

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 02:16 PM

Yes, I agree that we are a minority. But to the hell, their PR aimed for that minority at some point in time. There was not a single MMO without quest marks and checklists for ages. Why is everyone trying to get a piece of a cake that is already sliced to thin? Why not trying to make a new cake for those who like those kind of games and taking the monopol for themselves?



I started playing more old and indie games because of that reason. But if you look for an MMO, indie companies can't make them because the investement is too much. So if you look for an MMO you can only hope for a bigger company to make one that fits you.




I don't need totally open world. In fact I don't need it at all. I may be a minority by I for one loved the instance system gw1 has and all the positive side effects it has for story telling and gameplay. Wild Star and ESO don't look that promising to me to be honest. But they will get their chance as I give every game at least one chance if not more.



25 times repeating is already an exessive number if you don't like it. I havn't done 25 runs and I like the race. And optional, yeah everything is optional right? But everything with a reward makes you feel you have to do it. I'm personally mostly over the point but I see lots and lots of people in the game just doing those achievements/other stuff because they get rewarded for it but they express that's not fun to them. That's psychological play. You can argue either way, the good chunk of folk that might be to weak to resist the reward and not force themselves to do something that isn't fun or anet that knowingly adds those things to stretch the game cheaply.




I like to repeat content: If I want to. Forcing you to do so with new rewards is simply bad. I for one have done all of these JPs and Minidungeons because I love to explore and finding such things (I don't need stupid achievements for that ;)). Some of them were some of the greatest experiences I had in the game so far and I may do them in some point in the future again. But this point should be when I feel like I want to revisit them again (like I revisit areas that I like again from time to time if I feel like it).




Uh I think you didn't get my point here. The characters are the same but they are still weak (god that Kiel woman needs to be degraded, I never understood how magnus could graduate her in the first place). But that's not my main point. The connection seem to be out of place. It's more like "hm we got that chapter and the next one. How to connect? Hm just use a character of the old chapter or lets attack something of the old chapter in the new one". The only connection is "it was there before" but it doesn't really make sense nor is it compelling.
For your example: The Aetherblades were completly new, drawn out of nowwhere with no backround. They caused some action and some very weird counter action from Mrs. Kiel. Now, them attacking the bazar with no reason else than the rage on Kiel doesn't make much sense as a connection between them and the bazar. It doesn't make them more interesting or give them more backround either.

The connection lacks as much backround (depth) as the actual connection between the chapters.


GW1 wasn't an mmo, so it's weird to appeal to that model when saying how you want this game to be.

I think that your criticisms of the LS chapters not being unified is really a matter of taste. I've never seen an MMO with a compelling built in main story, because it isn't a format that lends itself to that. Where MMOs shine is hat they can create large worlds with lots of relatively shallow but diverse little stories. I think hat this LS chapter is as tied to the previous as I would like. I don't want a single track story. I find that boring. It's one of he things I disliked most about wow as the years wore on. An MMO is a world. It shouldn't have a singular moving story. Lots of things should happen and lots of things should come out of nowhere. I don't want to follow three characters for years. I want to jump around and see new aspects of the world.

I simply disagree about the achievements for the current LS. 25 races is about 2 per day. I'm already halfway there without trying. To call that a grind is a little ridiculous. If that's a grind, everything is a grind.

If you consider everything with a reward mandatory, that's a personal problem. You could ignore all of the achievements if you don't like them
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#54 Miragee

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 02:52 PM

GW1 wasn't an mmo, so it's weird to appeal to that model when saying how you want this game to be.

I think that your criticisms of the LS chapters not being unified is really a matter of taste. I've never seen an MMO with a compelling built in main story, because it isn't a format that lends itself to that. Where MMOs shine is hat they can create large worlds with lots of relatively shallow but diverse little stories. I think hat this LS chapter is as tied to the previous as I would like. I don't want a single track story. I find that boring. It's one of he things I disliked most about wow as the years wore on. An MMO is a world. It shouldn't have a singular moving story. Lots of things should happen and lots of things should come out of nowhere. I don't want to follow three characters for years. I want to jump around and see new aspects of the world.

I simply disagree about the achievements for the current LS. 25 races is about 2 per day. I'm already halfway there without trying. To call that a grind is a little ridiculous. If that's a grind, everything is a grind.

If you consider everything with a reward mandatory, that's a personal problem. You could ignore all of the achievements if you don't like them


1. GW1 wasn't an MMO I know, you reply that on every post involving gw1. I never said it was btw. The point was: I don't need a open world game to be happy, it could be an instanced one like gw1. I would possbily even prefer that.

2. I see your argument but I don't know why the little story itself has to have no backround. Look at all the "story" chapters. We know near to nothing why things happend. And it changed nothing in the world. Only evil, go kill, the end. It's the same all over again just with different evils. They come up with different stories on different ends of the world, I didn't say it has to be one neverending arc. But you should make one arc at least some chapters long and connect them well to make it compelling. You also have to fill the chapters with enough feasible backround. If it ends somewhere else could happen something new. With the event system things could also overlapping in time. One plot takes major part over month while a second plots slummers in the dark, with rare events here and there.
Also: Only because MMO's weren't good at story telling in the past (I heared LotRO was quiet good, but never played it) that doesn't mean they couldn't. Seems to be an argument to excuse laziness.

3. Well grinding isn't about time you stretch it on. In other MMO's you didn't repeat the same instances that much. And it was strechted over time. It was still grind. Grinding is only about repeating something mutiple times to achieve something.

4. Read my post about that point again please. I don't know why you speaking about my problems with that while have none (as being said).
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#55 Kichwas

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:09 PM

I think that your criticisms of the LS chapters not being unified is really a matter of taste. I've never seen an MMO with a compelling built in main story, because it isn't a format that lends itself to that. Where MMOs shine is hat they can create large worlds with lots of relatively shallow but diverse little stories. I think hat this LS chapter is as tied to the previous as I would like. I don't want a single track story. I find that boring. It's one of he things I disliked most about wow as the years wore on. An MMO is a world. It shouldn't have a singular moving story. Lots of things should happen and lots of things should come out of nowhere. I don't want to follow three characters for years. I want to jump around and see new aspects of the world.


The mini-stories puts in an episodic situation. Its like a Scooby Doo cartoon or a Law and Order episode. By the end of the issue, EVERYTHING has to be back to where it was at the start...

What changes there are are trivial. There can be no over-arching plotline, and nothing moves the dial on the external lore, nor does the external lore seem to have anything to do with what's in the episodes.

These things could be picked up and ported into either Star Wars or WoW with everything intact, even the graphics and NPC names - and it would still make sense for the most part...

They are meaningless.

No lore. No plot. No story.

They just get us through 'this week on Law and Order: Tyria'
- Its like we got ♥♥♥♥ Wolf to be lead content developer for GW2...

Will Ice-T be guest starring as a Lionguard this month or next month?

But its not even that... its more like seeing the 80s versions of Scooby Doo. The ones that had Scrappy that no one really remembers other than with a mild distate.

We're even getting Scooby Snacks...

They're silly, but in a 'approved by the conservative mothers of America association' way rather than the campy humor of 60s Scooby.

They again have no plot, no story, and seem, like any 80s cartoon; designed only to sell us the toy.

Maybe Old Man Smithers is behind the Aetherblade. When we finally unmask the next dragon, it will be the school janitor...


GIVE ME A FREAKING STORY ALREADY, ONE THAT LIVES.

- That means it needs larger chunks, told as stories, that move the dial. There's a LOT of Guild Wars lore out there, use it. Who the freak are these Aetherblade and where were they for the last 250 years of war between humanity and charr? And the Z-guys, with their airships? Are we even still playing Guild Wars? What kind of random lore is this?

Airships and skypirates are cool in a 'two geeks getting high while reading comic books and one turns to the other and says: Doooooooode, like, freaking sky pirates Man! Steampunk is freak'n awesome dude!'

- What the heck does that have to do with Guild Wars lore?

Will the new permanent account bonuses be an unlimited treadmill, and how do you feel about it?
Is it is fair that players with a lot of achievement point gets rewarded more for killing monster than a player with less point killing the very same monster?


This is actually a change I LIKE.

I think it is perfectly fair.

This rewards people who play ALL of the game, and not just farm little corners of it. It makes: "do a variety of engaging content" into a strategy for farming.

It is a nod to extrinsic reward players while trying to stay within an intrinsic reward model. I do not think it is possible to make a game meet both of those communities, but this is a good nod towards that.

I find this a LOT BETTER than leaving things like CoF p1 & 2 around, and a LOT better than the magic find on gear rewarding 'play by being less effective' path.
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#56 NineSpine

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:27 PM

The mini-stories puts in an episodic situation. Its like a Scooby Doo cartoon or a Law and Order episode. By the end of the issue, EVERYTHING has to be back to where it was at the start...

What changes there are are trivial. There can be no over-arching plotline, and nothing moves the dial on the external lore, nor does the external lore seem to have anything to do with what's in the episodes.

These things could be picked up and ported into either Star Wars or WoW with everything intact, even the graphics and NPC names - and it would still make sense for the most part...

They are meaningless.

No lore. No plot. No story.

They just get us through 'this week on Law and Order: Tyria'
- Its like we got ♥♥♥♥ Wolf to be lead content developer for GW2...

Will Ice-T be guest starring as a Lionguard this month or next month?

But its not even that... its more like seeing the 80s versions of Scooby Doo. The ones that had Scrappy that no one really remembers other than with a mild distate.

We're even getting Scooby Snacks...

They're silly, but in a 'approved by the conservative mothers of America association' way rather than the campy humor of 60s Scooby.

They again have no plot, no story, and seem, like any 80s cartoon; designed only to sell us the toy.

Maybe Old Man Smithers is behind the Aetherblade. When we finally unmask the next dragon, it will be the school janitor...


GIVE ME A FREAKING STORY ALREADY, ONE THAT LIVES.

- That means it needs larger chunks, told as stories, that move the dial. There's a LOT of Guild Wars lore out there, use it. Who the freak are these Aetherblade and where were they for the last 250 years of war between humanity and charr? And the Z-guys, with their airships? Are we even still playing Guild Wars? What kind of random lore is this?

Airships and skypirates are cool in a 'two geeks getting high while reading comic books and one turns to the other and says: Doooooooode, like, freaking sky pirates Man! Steampunk is freak'n awesome dude!'

- What the heck does that have to do with Guild Wars lore?



This is actually a change I LIKE.

I think it is perfectly fair.

This rewards people who play ALL of the game, and not just farm little corners of it. It makes: "do a variety of engaging content" into a strategy for farming.

It is a nod to extrinsic reward players while trying to stay within an intrinsic reward model. I do not think it is possible to make a game meet both of those communities, but this is a good nod towards that.

I find this a LOT BETTER than leaving things like CoF p1 & 2 around, and a LOT better than the magic find on gear rewarding 'play by being less effective' path.


People levy the same criticism at wow. They cry about any part of the world that doesn't relate back to Warcraft games before. The gw universe isn't just what you saw in gw1. Not every villain needs to be a mortal threat to the planet.
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#57 Feathermoore

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 05:36 PM

People levy the same criticism at wow. They cry about any part of the world that doesn't relate back to Warcraft games before. The gw universe isn't just what you saw in gw1. Not every villain needs to be a mortal threat to the planet.


You can't continuously pull completely new enemies out of a hat and expect the game's lore to benefit though. You can expand on a game's story with small threats, and those are a good thing, but those threats shouldn't be a completely new group that is immediately forgotten, at least not entirely.

Anet has plenty of forces in game that can be used in these side stories that wouldn't seem like they were generated out of a grab bag of story ideas. GW2 is a heavily story driven game, it is understandable that players get bored of the filler when there is obviously parts of the main story that could be filled out instead.

It isn't necessary at all for everything to come from the original GW1 game (and the poster you replied to doesn't state this etiher that I saw). The stories need to be related to GW2 lore. Currently... they just aren't. Flame and Frost was the way the LS should be going setting wise. Thing like Karkaland should be spread out and preferably connected in a side arc instead of stand alone things. The living story isn't living at all if you can ignore everything that happened in the past.



As for the rewards, sure they are fair. It isn't like you are competing with other players. In competitive games I hate any feature that "helps the person who is winning win more" but this isn't the case here since you can't really be winning.

Edited by Feathermoore, 12 July 2013 - 05:39 PM.

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#58 NineSpine

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:06 PM

You can't continuously pull completely new enemies out of a hat and expect the game's lore to benefit though. You can expand on a game's story with small threats, and those are a good thing, but those threats shouldn't be a completely new group that is immediately forgotten, at least not entirely.

Anet has plenty of forces in game that can be used in these side stories that wouldn't seem like they were generated out of a grab bag of story ideas. GW2 is a heavily story driven game, it is understandable that players get bored of the filler when there is obviously parts of the main story that could be filled out instead.

It isn't necessary at all for everything to come from the original GW1 game (and the poster you replied to doesn't state this etiher that I saw). The stories need to be related to GW2 lore. Currently... they just aren't. Flame and Frost was the way the LS should be going setting wise. Thing like Karkaland should be spread out and preferably connected in a side arc instead of stand alone things. The living story isn't living at all if you can ignore everything that happened in the past.



As for the rewards, sure they are fair. It isn't like you are competing with other players. In competitive games I hate any feature that "helps the person who is winning win more" but this isn't the case here since you can't really be winning.


Flame and frost tied very nicely into southsun. It was where the refugees of the previous events were being moved to. Dragon bash is clearly tied to the world in general. The aetherblades are the sole enemy that fits your criticism, and they tied hem forward into the bazaar. Really wHat we are talking about is a single new villain instituted so far in 2013, primarily in a single two week event, and its being falsely blown out of proportion.
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#59 Feathermoore

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:22 PM

Flame and frost tied very nicely into southsun. It was where the refugees of the previous events were being moved to. Dragon bash is clearly tied to the world in general. The aetherblades are the sole enemy that fits your criticism, and they tied hem forward into the bazaar. Really wHat we are talking about is a single new villain instituted so far in 2013, primarily in a single two week event, and its being falsely blown out of proportion.


Except that the refugees being moved to southsun made negative sense.

The point is, if the LS is only going to last for a very short period of time, then each and every story has to feel like it matters. And the stories so far have failed to do this. Nothing has actually come out of the stories other than a few skins and a largely empty zone with nothing to do.

But this is completely off topic. If you, or anyone, would like to continue the discussion you are more than welcome to PM me. Or start a thread on it. I don't think we have one.
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#60 2ndName

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 08:30 PM

I think the forum complain gang has been working too hard, it's time for a vacation. The word "grind" is also over worked in this thread, especially since you get xp for just playing the game rather than killing a particular animal over and over. In fact there is nothing in this game that forces you to grind anything unless you count "playing the game" as grinding. People mistake "their own" desire to get something done fast as grind, which ignores the meaning of grind. Grind : "forcing one to perform a monotonous task repeatedly to progress". Keeping up with the Jones's is fulfilling your own desires and not necessary to enjoy GW2.


I can't agree more. I've played grindy MMO and GW2 is far from it.
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