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Guide: Min/Max Dungeon Groups with Any Class Composition


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#1 Hamartia

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 04:20 PM

If you're a fresh level 80, use this guide to start getting geared:
http://www.guildwars...ed-at-level-80/


Purpose:

1. Provide a general guide to playing PVE dungeon content well.

2. Remind players of the importance of the GW2 offensive boon damage trinity—Might, Vulnerability, and Fury. These provide a 70-85% damage boost to your entire party when fully maxed. Every party and PUG should strive to max these out. If you want to play support in Guild Wars 2, then support offensively by providing these to your party.

3. Encourage players to form a higher number and variety of min/max group compositions. The balance between classes is reasonably good now. The most important thing is whether or not your group has access to all offensive boons-- not what class you play.

4. Provide build recommendations and gameplay advice that will get more players in min/max builds that will help their groups reach targets for Might, Vulnerability, and Fury.

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Part I: Forming a Min/Max Group With Any Class Composition


I. Might, Vulnerability and Fury are the trick to a strong group

These are the most important boons in PVE. Full stacked, they will offer your group a 75-85% damage boost assuming everyone is in full berserker gear. If your group is not comprised of all glass cannons, the damage boost will actually be significantly higher. So the less powerful you think your group is, the MORE important these damage-boosts become.

Might:

25 stacks of Might is 750 power/750 condition damage. Assuming an average of 2500 power, this is worth a whopping 35% damage boost to your group.

Vulnerability:

25 stacks of Vulnerability is worth a very simple 25% damage boost.

Fury:

100% Fury uptime is worth a 15-25% damage boost.


II. Bring some offensive boons

Given the phenomenal strength of these boons,
you should strive to ensure that you are providing some for your group, and that your group as a whole is hitting maximum targets for all three. When putting together a group with friends, try to figure out who will bringing what boons. When I know I am going to be pugging a lot, I usually modify my builds to focus on providing some additional Might.

The wiki shows all of your options for bringing these utilities:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Might
http://wiki.guildwar...i/Vulnerability
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fury

III. Playing at greater than 600 range is usually a bad idea

In addition to the fact that long-range weapons tend to do less damage than close-range weapons,
players standing more than 600 range away from their allies will miss out on most of the Might and Fury their group is stacking.

Longbow Ranger, for example, actually comes fairly close to Ranger Sword damage if fully buffed. However, standing at 900+ range, this poor Ranger will be doing 45-55% less damage than if they were standing near their allies who are providing Might and Fury.

You can use ranged weapons from within 600 range of the boss and be fine—Elementalist Scepter and Necro Axe are examples of ranged weapons being just fine because they remain close enough to the boss to receive buffs.

IV. Know how to stack Might

Might can be stacked on the fly using Fire Fields. A blast finisher executed in a fire field provides 3 stacks of might for 20 seconds. Almost any random combination of 5 classes in this game can stack 25 might if you know how to use Fire Fields and Blast Finishers.

Who Can Make Fire Fields: Elementalists like crazy. Longbow Warrior F1 Move. Guardian Utility skills Purging Flames and Hallowed Ground, Ranger Torch Bonfire, Flame Trap. Engineer Fire Bomb and Napalm. http://wiki.guildwar...wiki/Fire_field

Who Can Provide Blast Finishers: Every class. Ranger and Mesmer only have one available. http://wiki.guildwar.../Blast_finisher

You don't necessarily need to even coordinate this with your group.


If I notice on the first boss fight that my group didn't hit 25 might, for the second boss fight I will adapt accordingly. On my Warrior, for example, I will equip Longbow offhand and the "stomp" utility. I will swap to Longbow, f1, 3, stomp, and drop my banner in the firefield, to provide a whopping 9 stacks of might to my party.

On Necro, you could equip staff offhand for the 4 move, and add bone minions as a utility-- to add 9 stacks of might if someone else is supplying the fire field. It is ALWAYS worth it to buff your group with Might.

Special note for Mesmers: Signet of Inspiration can nearly double the Might output of your party by copying all of your boons to nearby party members. If your group is not at 25 might, you should probably be running this Signet. (http://wiki.guildwar..._of_Inspiration)


IN SUMMARY:

Do your best to provide offensive boons and to form groups that can max out all offensive boons. These are Might (35% damage boost), Vulnerability (25% damage boost) and Fury (10-20% damage boost.

Stand within 600 range of the boss, and know how to stack Might with fire fields when needed.

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Part II: Gear and Build Advice


I. A Summary of the Current PVE Meta:

If you are coming from other MMOs, you are used to the idea of tank, healer, and DPS roles. Anet removed roles for Guild Wars 2. Many expected this would mean that some people could still focus on support, control, and tanking to a certain degree.

In reality, the current Guild Wars 2 meta encourages everyone to focus on providing maximum DPS. By killing bosses super-fast, you never get to the point where you need significant defensive gear or support.

In PVE, gear as close to full Berserker as you can. Only swap in survival gear if you need to to avoid being downed.

Engineers and Rangers currently deal max DPS in the condition-damage equivalent of berserker gear which is Sinister gear.

II. General Glass Cannon Gearing Advice:

That means that the standard build for every class in the game is going to be the same: Berserker’s gear (power/precision/critical damage %), glass cannon. If this fact perturbs you, please direct your anger at Anet.

An absolutely perfect player in a perfect group can run full berserker’s gear in all content in this game on every class. I am not a perfect player, and you may not be either. On my Scepter/Dagger Elementalist, for example, I have to swap in some Soldier’s, Knight’s, Celestial or Valkyrie gear to add additional vitality or toughness.

In a group where most players deal low damage, Zerker might have more trouble surviving than guides like this take into account. For example, on my Zerker Guardian, I always swap to hammer when I notice my PUG isn't amazing.

If you tend to carry inexperienced friends or guildmates through content, you will probably need extra survival no matter how good you are.

The trick is to find the balance that works for you. Ideally you will run full berserker gear, but that isn’t helping anyone if you are getting downed frequently. So, in the current GW2 meta, your goal is to get as close to 100% berserker as you can without getting downed frequently (and still having fun).

Before swapping to survival armor, I recommend seeing if you can gain survival through Traits or Utility skills. You will also acquire a ton of different stat combination ascended rings when running fractals.

Runes:
Runes of the Scholar are the best option for most classes.

If you are a Phalanx Strength Warrior or the dedicated might-stacker of your group, then Runes of Strength will pull ahead.

The cheap, inferior options for classes that deal some burning is Runes of the Flame Legion. Runes of Rage and Runes of the Ranger are other cheap options.

However, instead of following this guide, please look at the specific rune advice offered for each build.

I do suggest just saving up enough gold to save for Runes of the Scholar, as it is quite worth it.

Sigils:
You will probably want to refer to the individual build you are using. In general, the flat damage percent boosts are best. Sigil of Force is the easy choice, for a flat 5% damage in all content. The dungeon-specific Sigils and Sigil of Night are twice as good as Force if you can meet their criteria. The cheap choice is Sigil of Air, which is significantly worse, but cheaper. A fully stacked Sigil of Bloodlust is worth about a 7.5% DPS increase if you are running full zerker-- the damage boost becomes higher the more defensive gear you are running due to diminishing returns on power.

IN SUMMARY:

Your ideal gear will be full Berserker's with Scholar runes. If you need to, swap in survival-based gear starting with helm, legs, and then chest. Try and keep your ascended trinkets to Berserker's as a minimum.

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Part III: Builds for High Damage

There used to be a big section here where I personally suggested builds. It took so much work to maintain. Thank god Metabattle exists now! Note that each of these builds does maximum damage assuming a semi-meta comp with a PS Warrior to Provide Might.

If your group is not hitting 25 Might, do what you need to do to get your group to 25 Might.

Staff Elementalist in a group without a PS warrior? Swap to Scepter/Dagger.

Guardian? Add Purging Flames and a Hammer.

Mesmer? Signet of inspiration. Etc Etc.

http://metabattle.co...MetaBattle_Wiki



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Was I wrong about something?

Please let me know in the comments or via PM. Feel free to suggest new builds or to suggest the removal of builds listed here if you have math that backs you up. Or just PM me and I'll look into it.

Edited by Hamartia, 05 September 2015 - 11:34 PM.

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#2 Joppe

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 05:25 PM

I'm not sure why you're saying longbow Rangers are "significantly worse" than sword Rangers. Have you played a longbow Ranger? There's also as aspect beyond numbers and that is the actual time you're hitting things in WvW. Longbow Ranger is unmatched in the ability to provide effective damage on enemies. Being in the range where enemies are unlikely to hit you also makes keeping health above 90% for Scholar sigil easier. It's deeply satisfying feeling being able to bring down targets with longbow and giving them no chance to escape.
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#3 Khadroth

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 05:35 PM

I'm not sure why you're saying longbow Rangers are "significantly worse" than sword Rangers. Have you played a longbow Ranger? There's also as aspect beyond numbers and that is the actual time you're hitting things in WvW. Longbow Ranger is unmatched in the ability to provide effective damage on enemies. Being in the range where enemies are unlikely to hit you also makes keeping health above 90% for Scholar sigil easier. It's deeply satisfying feeling being able to bring down targets with longbow and giving them no chance to escape.


It's a dungeon thread though, not WvW. Rangers are very good in WvW, no one will dispute that, simply for their ability to outrange their opponents. That said, in a dungeon environment like the guide says, the longbow ranger is going to be far away from the other might stackers due to his dmg scaling based on range from the target, meaning he will not be might capped and doing subpar dmg to the rest of the group members. There are unfortunately very few PvE fights in the game that necessitate using ranged weapons.
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#4 Plyte

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 05:36 PM

I'm not sure why you're saying longbow Rangers are "significantly worse" than sword Rangers. Have you played a longbow Ranger? There's also as aspect beyond numbers and that is the actual time you're hitting things in WvW. Longbow Ranger is unmatched in the ability to provide effective damage on enemies. Being in the range where enemies are unlikely to hit you also makes keeping health above 90% for Scholar sigil easier. It's deeply satisfying feeling being able to bring down targets with longbow and giving them no chance to escape.


Longbow Rangers must be at 1000 range in order to get maximum damage from their Auto attacks and do roughly 60% of that damage if they are in melee range. Also most buffs range from 600 to 900 meaning you are potentially missing a lot of those.
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#5 Hamartia

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 05:40 PM

I'm not sure why you're saying longbow Rangers are "significantly worse" than sword Rangers. Have you played a longbow Ranger? There's also as aspect beyond numbers and that is the actual time you're hitting things in WvW. Longbow Ranger is unmatched in the ability to provide effective damage on enemies. Being in the range where enemies are unlikely to hit you also makes keeping health above 90% for Scholar sigil easier. It's deeply satisfying feeling being able to bring down targets with longbow and giving them no chance to escape.


Edit: Sorry to gang up on you! While I was typing my answer other people replied and pretty much covered it!

Firstly, this guide is exclusively for PVE.

Secondly, I happen to love Longbow Ranger. In fact, I'm the person who wrote the Longbow Ranger guide included in this build. =) It is tied with Staff Ele and Staff Guardian as my favorite class for WvW, so I agree with you on all that.

All that being said, you can't argue with math. Pre-patch, Longbow was 26% less damage than Sword. With the aftercast reductions, the difference is not nearly as high and I don't know the exact number-- but Longbow simply hits for much less than sword does.

On top of that, and as I said in OP, Longbow will do 45-55% less damage due to lacking might and fury from their party, assuming their party is mostly concentrated in melee range and doing their job to provide might and fury.

Edited by Hamartia, 22 July 2013 - 05:42 PM.

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#6 Stumi

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 08:45 PM



I think this is a pretty good build for necromancers, as long as you ignore going 10 into death magic and instead go 10 into curses. I use it and I'm pretty sure its on par/stronger than a standard dagger spam build.
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#7 Hamartia

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 11:47 PM

@ Stumi:

Yup, I find the 30/10 variant to be a bit better, and that is currently the most fun Necro build and that one that can stack 25 vuln. Sadly, and I want to be proven wrong, the math is showing pure dagger to be better damage.

That build is DEFINITELY pretty good. Just sadly what recommends it is its ability to stack vuln rather than its damage, which is lower than dagger.
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#8 Rennalt

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 05:17 PM

For the second Ranger link you should use Guan's updated guide, as the one you have posted is outdated.

http://www.guildwars...ith-everything/
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#9 Hamartia

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 08:10 PM

For the second Ranger link you should use Guan's updated guide, as the one you have posted is outdated.

http://www.guildwars...ith-everything/


Thanks so much! Will do!
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#10 Tywele

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 02:23 PM

For might and fury stacking (and every other boon) you could also mention the Signet of Inspiration from the mesmer.
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#11 Hamartia

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 01:27 PM

For might and fury stacking (and every other boon) you could also mention the Signet of Inspiration from the mesmer.


Great point. Will add now.
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#12 StaplerPie

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 06:05 AM

Great guide. I'm still somewhat skeptical about Runes of the Scholar. 90% HP is higher than most people think. It seems that you'd be below 90% HP for over 76% of the time just from incidental damage, especially if you're going into melee range.
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#13 thewindwaker

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 09:01 AM

Great guide. I'm still somewhat skeptical about Runes of the Scholar. 90% HP is higher than most people think. It seems that you'd be below 90% HP for over 76% of the time just from incidental damage, especially if you're going into melee range.

initially I was skeptical too, but 24% of the fight is easily manageable. it depends heavily on the bosses of course, but for the majority of encounters this is doable without breaking into sweat. I personally would recommend those runes to everyone...
p.s.: I play all my classes exclusively melee :-)
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#14 beadnbutter32

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 11:31 AM

Far more important than builds and might stacking is who you run with.

Running with PUGs is almost guaranteed to result in groups where half or more of the players have never run a dungeon before and most of their in game experience consists fo chasing world chest timer zergs, where dodging skills are rarely required or learned.

Running with friends and/or guildmates ups the chances that each team member will at least know how to dodge and successfully fight outside of a giant zerg. I know this sounds elitist but guild hopping/shopping till you find one where you fit in and the members interests in game match your own is totally worth it.

Voice chat is the next most important thing to bring. It allows giving instructions while people fight, and does not require taking time to type or look away from dodging that incoming AOE.

Some other housekeeping tips: horde your instant repair canisters, instant npc vendors, bank tellers, etc. so you can pop them in dungeons when you really need them. A note about gear: A really good investment is additional inventory tabs and 20 slot bags. The less often you have to stop to sell stuff is more time for completing stuff. Learn which drops stack, just let them stack up, and wait to open them after the run. Only vendor junk items and things that don't stack during the run.

As far as Zerk builds go, that truly is the current meta in PVE. My main interest is WvW, and I find full zerk builds a bit too squishy in that environment, so I prefer to run soldier type builds which I can run in WvW or dungeons.

If you don't have time to level and outfit multiple characters or have multiple gear sets for one character, I have found my Soldiers type builds which I run mainly for WvW, do just fine in dungeons. I do have a Zerked out Warrior so I do appreciate the benefits of what a full Zerk build can do. I had just completed gearing up that warrior when Anet dropped the nerf on COF, so I only play him now when I want a change of pace from my Guardian main that is optimized for WvW.

The new 'farming' hotness seems to be champs at the moment, at least until Anet identifies and nerfs the most profitable ones, so I think it will be some time before the player base establishes a solid dungeon mn/max route.

Edited by beadnbutter32, 10 August 2013 - 11:50 AM.

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#15 Hamartia

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 01:52 PM

@ Beadnbutter32

For some reason, players seem to have an all-or-nothing mentality with Zerker gear. Zerker is too squishy, so they run 100% Soldiers, Knights, or Clerics.

You can run 3 pieces Soldiers or Knights with a very small DPS loss for a very high survivability increase. You can run full Knight or Soldiers armor to be super tanky. More than that and you're hurting your damage too much. As long as all your ascended trinkets are Zerker, you'll be in okay shape.

To be honest, I mostly PUG and I only have bad experiences with PUGs when I join someone else's group. I always regret it if I don't make the group myself.

But if I make my own group and enforce certain standards, PUG groups are amazing. There are a ton of great players pugging, you just need to get them in YOUR group.

My LFG listings are as follows:

Melee only unless fight requires ranged. At least 50% zerker gear required. No Healing Shout Warriors or Altruistic Healing Guardians. S/D Eles, 30/10/0/0/30 Axe Necros, and Zerk Grenade Engineers are welcome.

I don't gearcheck or anything, but I get solid runs very reliably without excluding classes or forcing anyone to run full zerker-- so I'm not seeing people get downed often because they're running more glass than they are comfortable with.

Edited by Hamartia, 11 August 2013 - 01:56 PM.

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#16 Nikaido

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 04:58 PM



Here's a real world example of running different party compo with great results in a dungeon guild. Clean, no shield flicker kill with no mesmer/timewarp/not much quickness burst except for the one warrior and engi. Use of combo fields for might etc. That kinda fits the spirit of this minmax anything thread. Engi build is guanglai's, ele are 30/0/20/20/0, guardian 10/30/0/0/30, warrior 30/0/0/10/30.

Edited by Nikaido, 12 August 2013 - 05:01 PM.

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#17 StaplerPie

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 01:41 AM

Here's a real world example of running different party compo with great results in a dungeon guild. Clean, no shield flicker kill with no mesmer/timewarp/not much quickness burst except for the one warrior and engi. Use of combo fields for might etc. That kinda fits the spirit of this minmax anything thread. Engi build is guanglai's, ele are 30/0/20/20/0, guardian 10/30/0/0/30, warrior 30/0/0/10/30.


Clean runs aren't hard. When we say minmax we mean minimizing time, maximizing gold/second. So unless you can show that a non zerkfest party can clear dungeons as quickly as a zerkfest party, then it's not optimal.
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#18 Arewn

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 02:24 AM

Clean runs aren't hard. When we say minmax we mean minimizing time, maximizing gold/second. So unless you can show that a non zerkfest party can clear dungeons as quickly as a zerkfest party, then it's not optimal.

The spirit of this thread seems to be "minmaxing under none-optimal conditions", in other words making the best of what you have. I don't think he was contending the fact that non-zerkers can't put out as much damage as zerkers.
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#19 Nikaido

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 03:23 PM

Clean runs aren't hard. When we say minmax we mean minimizing time, maximizing gold/second. So unless you can show that a non zerkfest party can clear dungeons as quickly as a zerkfest party, then it's not optimal.


I thought it was about min maxing with things other than stacking warriors (aka more varied party composition as per point three in the original post), not bad gear vs zerk gear. We are using zerk gear, I just made a point that you don't need the classic war stacking groups to achieve the same efficiency.

Unless I can't read, Hamartia whole post tries to explain how to maximize offensive boons etc with classes other than just going 4 warrior randomly mashing their keyboard.

Edited by Nikaido, 13 August 2013 - 03:26 PM.

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#20 Khadroth

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 04:40 PM

The new 'farming' hotness seems to be champs at the moment, at least until Anet identifies and nerfs the most profitable ones, so I think it will be some time before the player base establishes a solid dungeon mn/max route.


Which I find funny, because in about an hour you can have 5-6g without any loot consideration just from CoF1, AC1+3, and SE1+3. I have to admit, as someone who regularly did dungeons and didn't chain farm CoF, that this patch has made my gold skyrocket. I'm sure with full magic find buffs and destroyer/boss farming the pavillion you could make more, but it's neither fun nor engaging.
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#21 Hamartia

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 02:43 PM

I thought it was about min maxing with things other than stacking warriors (aka more varied party composition as per point three in the original post), not bad gear vs zerk gear. We are using zerk gear, I just made a point that you don't need the classic war stacking groups to achieve the same efficiency.

Unless I can't read, Hamartia whole post tries to explain how to maximize offensive boons etc with classes other than just going 4 warrior randomly mashing their keyboard.


You are absolutely correct. I think that person just assumed for some reason that you weren't running zerker gear and let his mind run from there :P

That video is exactly in the spirit of this thread and was a great contribution. Just curious, what are the eles taking in 20 earth?
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#22 Nikaido

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 07:16 PM

Serrated Stones and Stone Splinters. We'd go 25 in earth if there were more sources of fury but the ele are pretty much the only source in our groups at the moment which is why we kept 30 in Fire.

That's a setup we chose to go with engineer since the engineer can solo most of the vuln and does enough bleed to ensure that the ele LH can benefit from Serrated Stones, otherwise we run 30/30/0/10/0 most of the time (25 in air helps in groups that have less vuln stacking, and since you're already 25 into air you might as well go 30).

I'd be open to any suggestions and thoughts about set ups close to ours that would be better than whatever we use. Running with a great variety of classes has saved me from boredom in a way, and keeps me thinking about improvements, better rotation etc in all the dungeons we do.

Edited by Nikaido, 14 August 2013 - 07:18 PM.

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#23 Hamartia

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 01:38 AM

Updated to include an Engineer Rifle build a while back-- if anyone who is more knowledgable about Engies can let me know if the build is actually any good compared to Grendades (particularly since Ascended Rifles now exist, but grenades haven't been buffed), please let me know!
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#24 Danny091283

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 12:18 PM

Does this guide works in Fractals as well?
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#25 thewindwaker

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 06:11 PM

Does this guide works in Fractals as well?

most certainly, yes =)
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#26 Zorkoma

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:31 PM

You might want to update the warrior build to 30,25,0,0,15 since latest changes

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#27 Danny091283

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 12:46 PM

But if I make my own group and enforce certain standards, PUG groups are amazing. There are a ton of great players pugging, you just need to get them in YOUR group.

My LFG listings are as follows:

Melee only unless fight requires ranged. At least 50% zerker gear required. No Healing Shout Warriors or Altruistic Healing Guardians. S/D Eles, 30/10/0/0/30 Axe Necros, and Zerk Grenade Engineers are welcome.

I don't gearcheck or anything, but I get solid runs very reliably without excluding classes or forcing anyone to run full zerker-- so I'm not seeing people get downed often because they're running more glass than they are comfortable with.

You are right about pugs, there are a lot of good players out of there and if you find one you should add them to your friend list.

But i don't agree with no gear check.
Since the lfg tool is there in game most pugs are just joining and did not read the advertisement of your lfg.

Yesterday i was with a friend and we maked a lfg for only zerker with gear check.
We did kicked 4 or 5 people that where joining with pvt gear.
One person was asking me why we kicked him, i told him to read the adversiment next time.
So if you want a good steady run with zerkers and you are using the lfg tool you really want to do a gearcheck.

Later that day i was pugging ac, just joined a team with lfg tool, the run was really slow but haven't to much problems so asume that everyone was using pvt or something like that and i was the only one with all zerker gear.
I had an discussion with someone (dungeon master title so i thought he knows how to play this game) about going full zerker. He was using knights armor with scholar runes. He really was afraid of dieing. I told him that if everyone is zerker and you have shorter fights then it's a lot easier to keep yourself alive.
You are only dieing if you don't know how to dodge or when the fight takes to long.

Edited by Danny091283, 19 November 2013 - 12:53 PM.

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#28 master21

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 03:02 PM

I've got some question about necro builds.

How much damage on dagger I loose with DS build. So it's just basically comparing 150 prec + target weak vs 15% crit damage + 5% > LF 50%

In terms of being flexible as necro, dagger build looks quite poor, ds too weak to use, bound to dagger all the time, poor aoe only from well.
So its more like DS necro end up with great group which gives him might, vuln etc etc. Should he use dagger? How much damage he losses comparing to dagger build.
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#29 landeroth

landeroth

    Pale Tree Seedling

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 03:26 PM

i used to use a glass warrior with 70%+ crit, and mainly dodge to avoid damage. stopped playing for a while and came back. every ♥♥♥♥ing group in dungeons all pulls and stacks together now so dodging becomes rather ridiculous, since they always do it where there is no room to dodge (think of the smallest crevice they could possibly pick, where you can't even see the fight). not only that, they get really pissed if you don't stand exactly where they do. doing this on a boss, you just gotta take every hit it throws at you so I eventually gave up my zerker build and was forced into tankish gear. The funny part is, they do this in AC even with lower leveled people, so you get the level 40 necro trying to tank boss fights.
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