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#1 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:51 PM

Izzy posted a bit of info on the CoF nerf:
https://www.guildwar...ungeon-rewards/

Our goal is to make each and every dungeon path feel enticing and rewarding. We also want the rewards structure to encourage players to enjoy a variety of dungeon paths

To reach these goals, we’ve made a few tweaks to the way dungeon completion is rewarded. Moving forward, the full reward for individual dungeon paths will be on a one-day timer, making it more lucrative to run multiple paths than repeating a single path. This should also increase the rewards for people who only do one dungeon a day. Story dungeons will award 50 silver for completion, and explorable dungeons will award between 1 and 3 gold depending on length and difficulty. As we go on with our project of updating our existing dungeons, we’ll monitor the changes to paths and update the rewards accordingly.In a related update, we’ve removed the silver you get directly from dungeon bosses, as we have a new champion reward system coming in to place.






All aboard the Queensdale champ zerg train! Choo-choo!.

#2 Rytlock Bigpaw

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:10 PM

I think those bags will contain materials to the proper level. Queensdale will at most reward t1 mats, blues and greens. Now frostgorge, south sun, and orr will drop t6 mats and lodstones for sure, i wouldn´t put my faifth in low level areas, just my 2 cents

#3 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:04 PM

View PostRytlock Bigpaw, on 01 August 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

I think those bags will contain materials to the proper level. Queensdale will at most reward t1 mats, blues and greens. Now frostgorge, south sun, and orr will drop t6 mats and lodstones for sure, i wouldn´t put my faifth in low level areas, just my 2 cents

Wouldn't that be a bit of a waste of an update? Especially in the light of the fact that starter area special bosses drop level appropriate gear or all qualities?

#4 MazingerZ

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:30 PM

Not to mention kill low level areas unless you're actually leveling.

The dungeon changes are pretty much what Heroic Dungeons were in Wrath of the Lich King.

Do as many as you can every day.  But you can only do 'em once for any real reward, so doing them more than once is pointless.

The question becomes whether or not Champion Zerging > Daily Dungeon Completion.

The adjustments to dungeon rewards is the attempted repair following tearing down CoF P1 farming.  "We aren't nerfing your ability to gather loot!  We're just trying to get you to diversify your game play!"

It wouldn't be surprising if the overall result was less wealth generation from doing dungeons overall.

Edited by MazingerZ, 01 August 2013 - 08:31 PM.

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#5 Loperdos

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:36 PM

View PostRitualist, on 01 August 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

Wouldn't that be a bit of a waste of an update? Especially in the light of the fact that starter area special bosses drop level appropriate gear or all qualities?

While true, the mat bags that you collect from various areas drop materials that are appropriate to the level of area that you found the bag in.  I would imagine (speculation) that the champ reward bags will function the somewhat the same way.  The use of bags seems to be a work-around that Anet uses so that lvl 80 toons can still collect lower leveled mats via bags (outside of the obvious way of mining or collecting them).

#6 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:41 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 01 August 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

The question becomes whether or not Champion Zerging > Daily Dungeon Completion.

I am honestly a bit torn here: on one side you really want folks to be in the open world because having a community is the point of an MMO.If you don't have anyone around, then GW1 did it better: we're giving up a lot of things to have an open world.
On the other hand: dungeons are actually balanced with a set number of people, which means folks that are there need to put in the work whereas open world zerg trains lead to just spamming skill 1. (Hell, the lag normally prevents you from doing anything else!) Not only that, but with dungeons in the game, you need to promote them because you can't do dungeons unless other people are also doing it.


Honestly, it's going to be interesting to see how this will work without a LFG tool.




View PostLoperdos, on 01 August 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

While true, the mat bags that you collect from various areas drop materials that are appropriate to the level of area that you found the bag in.  I would imagine (speculation) that the champ reward bags will function the somewhat the same way.  The use of bags seems to be a work-around that Anet uses so that lvl 80 toons can still collect lower leveled mats via bags (outside of the obvious way of mining or collecting them).

I imagine we won't be looking at actual bags, we'll be looking at bags that have the functionality of a chest, no?

#7 Inraged Twitch

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:55 PM

it doesn't change the fact that COF P3 sucks arah P4 sucks HOTW P2 sucks and TA f/u sucks.  People will continue to choose the "easier" quickest path to get rewards.  I say there needs to be different reward tiers (NOT JUST GOLD) for the dungeons rather than just offering a random chance to get exotics/rares no matter what path you decide to take.  Just my two cents.

cof P1-cores
p2-core/lodestone
p3- lodestones.

OR a BONUS for doing a complete dungeon run within the 24hr daily period.

Edited by Inraged Twitch, 01 August 2013 - 09:25 PM.


#8 Darkobra

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:06 PM

Remember the last update they had almost a year ago to "make champions more profitable?"

Me too. Rolling in greens.

#9 shanaeri rynale

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:18 PM

I hope it's not graded by level. For example TA is easier than AC. CoF, is easier than SE etc etc. Whereas if it's by level AC would earn you less than TA and CoF more than SE

Edited by shanaeri rynale, 01 August 2013 - 09:19 PM.


#10 MazingerZ

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:20 PM

View PostRitualist, on 01 August 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

whereas open world zerg trains lead to just spamming skill 1. (Hell, the lag normally prevents you from doing anything else!)

This is a result of poor game design.  Open world bosses that require strategy are possible.  Look at WoW's dragons of nightmare or the other things they've done.  Heck, most of the strategies involving the nightmare dragons didn't really rely that much on the trinity other than keeping the dragon facing away from everyone.

I never found the Fire Elemental pre-nerf that hard, with the exception of his range hitting the bridge choke-point you had to pass to get in range of him.  And he cut people down by the hundreds.  Gear broke, people nude-zerged it.  I found the choke-point issue to be a cart-before-the-horse.  They made the map and ultimately how range numbers balanced out made it so that he had to be able to hit as far as the bridge, otherwise players could stay out of his range and smack him.

Mega Destroyer is probably one of the better fights because you can avoid his damage easily enough, but you can get knocked down if not paying attention.  He has phases (albeit a little boring), but he requires at least some coordination to actually do easily.  Putting him inside a volcano probably helps FPS issues too.
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Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#11 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:24 AM

View PostMazingerZ, on 01 August 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

This is a result of poor game design.

Aye, and that's the issue: you want people in the open world, but open world really isn't something the devs want to promote (let's be honest - dungeons aren't in a shape, worth of being promoted either, but compared to open world, they demand a bit more from the player).

Too bad GW2 had to be released a year ago: it would have been so much easier if they had a year or two more to develop the game. :/




Since that sounds a bit off-topic: the point is that A.Net, by limiting our rewards, is telling us how we should play the game. And the game that they want us to play has issues and now they are making us endure those issues.
Of course, you can still avoid those issues, it's just that then you are basically giving up on any hope of rewards in this game.

#12 NerfHerder

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 07:54 AM

View PostRitualist, on 02 August 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

....the point is that A.Net, by limiting our rewards, is telling us how we should play the game. And the game that they want us to play has issues and now they are making us endure those issues.
Of course, you can still avoid those issues, it's just that then you are basically giving up on any hope of rewards in this game.

I see it different. You can still farm CoF til your little hearts content. If you find that fun, you can keep doing that. But, what most people found fun were gaining rewards. So for the people who enjoy rewards, they gave you more places to get them.

For whatever reasons, I enjoy open world content more than dungeons. The champion changes are more liberating to me than restrictive. Now if only we could get exotic gear from open world champions, like we do in dungeons. Then again if we get enough loot/mats we can craft it. Of course there will now probably be 24h facedesk zergfests in Orr. How healthy that is, is debatable.

#13 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:12 AM

View PostNerfHerder, on 02 August 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

I see it different. You can still farm CoF til your little hearts content. If you find that fun, you can keep doing that. But, what most people found fun were gaining rewards. So for the people who enjoy rewards, they gave you more places to get them.

Except that you stop getting rewards after the first run.

Adding options is great. The problem here is that they replaced one of the options instead.

#14 Senatic

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:20 AM

Good Riddance, lets see if those CoF farmers have some real skill, let see them speedrun arah paths in 20min (which will now be a great way(and more profitable then cof p1 ever was) of earning money.)

Really I was so tired of CoF this CoF that. Thanks anet for switching things up.

#15 Illein

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:33 AM

I guess for me and the people from my guild I usually play with, this should be good news - as we like to run a couple of different dungeons a day just to mix things up.

Though, I can already see myself pressing for as fast as possible, which will cause guaranteed trouble :D

PS.: Doing CoF1 at least once a day, probably tied to CoF2 should still be very profitable. At least CoF1 will give you an easy 1 Gold+drops for those ~7 Minutes of wrecking through it.

Any guesses for the new dungeon grinding meta? :D Wonder what it will be. Twilight Arbor all 3 paths should be quite doable in under an hour if you skip stuff - but that'd probably only net around 7-8g total. Not too shabby, but yeah - I am sure someone else will figure path combinations out that are quicker do do.

Edited by Illein, 02 August 2013 - 08:44 AM.


#16 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:50 AM

View PostSenatic, on 02 August 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

Good Riddance, lets see if those CoF farmers have some real skill, let see them speedrun arah paths in 20min (which will now be a great way(and more profitable then cof p1 ever was) of earning money.)

Really I was so tired of CoF this CoF that. Thanks anet for switching things up.

I think this post says it best: the community's problem with grinding CoF wasn't the grinding part, it was the CoF part.

#17 DennisChrDk

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:53 AM

View PostIllein, on 02 August 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Any guesses for the new dungeon grinding meta? :D Wonder what it will be. Twilight Arbor all 3 paths should be quite doable in under an hour if you skip stuff - but that'd probably only net around 7-8g total. Not too shabby, but yeah - I am sure someone else will figure path combinations out that are quicker do do.

Don't think TA forward/up will get meta since it's bugged at the moment. Some guild mates used almost 45 min on ONE boss in there the other day.
Arah will most likely be profitable to do as a speedrun, since you can do most paths in 30 min, if you know how to melee GL etc. CoE will most likely be the same thing :)

#18 NerfHerder

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 09:00 AM

View PostRitualist, on 02 August 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

Except that you stop getting rewards after the first run.

Adding options is great. The problem here is that they replaced one of the options instead.

They replaced the option. CoF has been broken for a long time no one will argue that. Their "fix" is actually better than upping the difficulty, because it prevents other dungeons that are farmable to slide into the same pattern.

Dont get me wrong, I understand your concern. Some people do enjoy farming CoF and only CoF. But I dont think Anet thought from the very beginning "Hey! Lets make a dungeon that can be farmed in 15m that gives out the most money and gear in the game. So much so that you'll never want to play any other dungeon ever again."

#19 Brandon the Don

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 09:24 AM

View PostSenatic, on 02 August 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

Good Riddance, lets see if those CoF farmers have some real skill, let see them speedrun arah paths in 20min (which will now be a great way(and more profitable then cof p1 ever was) of earning money.)

Really I was so tired of CoF this CoF that. Thanks anet for switching things up.

Yup same here...

Try getting the title Dungeon Master without being in a big dungeon guild... near impossible I tell ye...
People should really open their eyes some more for more content than just the one, extremely boring, CoF P1...
... Besides, HotW P1 might've even be easier :3

#20 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 09:48 AM

Remember how the dungeons in GW1 pretty much all rewarded at least one piece of max level gear from the end chest (and more in Hard mode!)?  Remember how that got people to actually do just about all those dungeons on a regular basis?  I'm sure these two facts have very little to do with each other, though, right?  

As for "champion zerging", I find it hard to believe that most of the champions in game will receive much attention, even after the update.  The problem is that there are huge parts of the map that are almost totally empty (except for the occasional leveling of alts), even on servers designated as "full".  People in the zone may be happy to join in on a champion event if there are good reasons to do so (rewards, achievements) but they have to be in the zone to begin with most of the time.  At present, there are multiple champions in just about every zone, so odds are that most of them will still go completely ignored.  Now, if anet had decided to only put champs in truly epic and rewarding events, that would be a different story... but that's not what happened.

#21 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 10:12 AM

View PostNerfHerder, on 02 August 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Dont get me wrong, I understand your concern. Some people do enjoy farming CoF and only CoF. But I dont think Anet thought from the very beginning "Hey! Lets make a dungeon that can be farmed in 15m that gives out the most money and gear in the game. So much so that you'll never want to play any other dungeon ever again."

And it would be fantastic if the initiative to do other areas was created by making those areas interesting instead of making them interesting because you nerfed CoF.
I mean, they are throwing out content every 14 days, yet they can't put that effort into fixing the stuff that was broken when the game shipped.

#22 Buran_Grey

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 10:30 AM

Since late March I do every day CoF path 1 four times at day (two with a Guardian and 2 with a Warrior); that provides me around 90 silver coins x run and  ~ 180 to 200 tokens at day (60/20/60/20 + bags). I use those tokens to buy lvl 70 armor pieces at the CoF vendor and then I get the ectos (easily 6-7 ectos at day). So in matter of 40 -70 minutes (playing mostly in public games)I earn around 4,8 gold coins -if I sell the ectos-.

   The reason I do this is because farming events or farming monsters in Orr or mining ores is too tedious to me, and due I have time compromises in WvW with my guild (I must add that WvW is by far my favourite part of the game).this is the most direct way to earn some gold; so far is/was working well: I was able to buy Dusk (the precursor of Twilight) and to gear up several builds for my characters. CoF 1 is the best not only because the time/rewards ratio, but also due in my server (Baruch Bay) is almost the only dungeon at which you can find groups at any time of the day, so you don't have to beg other guild members to do runs with you. I known people that farms CoF P1 over 20 times each day.

   I think that the new rewards will have little effect in my earns and/or behavior. I always mind that the monolithic rewards (60 tokens) each run was absurd, due negates any appeal to re-run the longer/harder paths (except for completism), so rewards must escalate in relation with the effort you need to do. The problem is that ANET  management of the rewards in the game is not very fair: almost every department in which you want to expent your time is punished by diminishing returns or limited (you can only earn one laurel at day, a few guild tokens at week, etc.). So even if you like some aspects, you can't devote most of your time solely to those parts due the rewards are caped.

   Some months ago, after the Ascalon Catacombs changes, the player population at that dungeon was almost extincted in my server: it was very popular before due the low level cap and low requirements in terms of gear, a dungeon very friendly to rokies and starters. the changes made it more challenging. I think that path 3 can be farmed very fast, but you need some coordination, and tokens from this dungeon can't be efficiently turned into ectos as with the ones from CoF, HotW, CoE and Arah, so no matter what ANET changes, the first four dungeons will never be popular.

   Based on how finally the rewards for dungeons will fit after the patch I will probably move from 4 CoF path 1 to 1 CoF path 1 + 1 path X whatever at day. But I will not spent more time playing the game, and probably will play less dungeons than before, and will not increase the diversity of my runs. I already have the dungeons master title and play dungeons mostly due convenience: If I want fun I play WvW, which I find as the only part of the game that truly enjoy that also gives me decent earns.

Edited by Buran_Grey, 02 August 2013 - 01:12 PM.


#23 WildeThe Great

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 02:17 PM

reward for each path in a dungeon per day is account bound or character bound?
that real question for me

#24 Eon Lilu

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 02:20 PM

They need to increase lodestones and core drops from dungeons, as well as T6 materials.

Then more players would actually do the dungeons as well as spread out across all dungeons.

They also need to make the dungeons actually have more mechanics and less grindy mobs with uber health bars.

They could add hard mode versions of the dungeons and I don't mean just increase health bars Anet...

But instead they will just take away coin rewards from boss's ( just because of cof p1 one dungeon that could of been changed a LONG LONG TIME AGO ) and chuck all the coin rewards in one chest at the end.

That has to be the laziest change ever to dungeons...

Edited by Eon Lilu, 02 August 2013 - 02:24 PM.


#25 AsgarZigel

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 03:40 PM

Quote

This is a result of poor game design.

I think the bosses are supposed to have actual mechanics, but they had to disable them because the engine optimization is terrible and lower-level PCs can't handle the amount of players who participate in them. Well and that the scaling just doesn't scale up high enough, a problem that all the events have.

Let's take Tequatl as an example, since there was some coverage about that fight before the game came out.

You have Tequatl, who's dangerous to fight personally because he's a frickin dragon and throws AoE's around.
There are cannons around him that can damage him from a save distance.
He summons Walls to block the shots, Bone Tentacle things to knock people off the cannons and other minions to kill the players who are further away. Including big suicide bombers.
There's a megacannon that charges and knocks him on his ass for free damage.

With this, there are multiple things players can do to contribute: Attack Tequatl directly if you can dodge his AoE's, kill the walls and tentacles, go on the cannons to deal damage to Tequatl or protect the other players from the suicide bombers or normal mobs or protect the megacannon crew from mobs.

Wouldn't win any game design medals, but it is pretty reasonable and requires players to coordinate. in theory.
In practice players are going on the cannons and the others just murder Tequatl with there weapons. I don't even know if the megacannon even works, didn't figure out how to fire it once it was charged. (If it even gets that far)
Mobs just get obliterated in the Zerg and if there are enough players the lag is bad enough that you can't really do much anyway.

It's not that the game design is completely terrible (although it has some issues), it's just that the implementation doesn't keep up with it.

As far as the Fire Elemental goes: I think the main problem was that many people ignored the spawned fire elementals, they tend to create multiple lava fonts and if there are enough of them, you don't have enough space to dodge.

#26 Calypso589

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:26 PM

I agree with a point made by Wooden Potatoes. GW2 has become a lil too focused on its reward structure. Players only care about the shiny. The example he gave was the DLC announced for Bioshock infinite which will take players back to rapture. Now sure they're excited to play in rapture with Infinite's systems but they're more excited to GO. To experience a new story in Rapture. GW2 needs that.
It's sad because there are many great stories to be told to supplement the great gameplay but they AREN'T telling them for some god damned reason. Noone has given a living crap about anything that has gone on in Tyria since the living story was first implemented. It's just not that interesting. None of it is. There's been ZERO reason to care in the slightest.

Now don't get me wrong. People are excited about the Zephyrites and their connection to glint and there's a real opportunity here to for them to take us on a truly epic set of living story archs concerning flit and her child and what's been going on and have it all potentially lead to the next Elder dragon. THAT'S a story people would care about. THAT'S a story that would finally see all this business about shiny's take a back seat.

IMO after this update, the rewards are fine. Dungeons need reworked of course but that'll come in time.

I just wanna see GW2 match story for gameplay because thus far.....it's been terrible at the worst and forgettable at best.

#27 Tevesh

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 04:00 PM

View PostRitualist, on 01 August 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

Wouldn't that be a bit of a waste of an update? Especially in the light of the fact that starter area special bosses drop level appropriate gear or all qualities?

Piling all lvl 80 players into Queensdale - now that is a waste of an entire game, this is what it is.

#28 Nyid

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 04:34 PM

View PostWildeThe Great, on 02 August 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

reward for each path in a dungeon per day is account bound or character bound?
that real question for me

I'm also curious about this. Any info out there?

#29 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 04:35 PM

View PostCalypso589, on 02 August 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

I agree with a point made by Wooden Potatoes. GW2 has become a lil too focused on its reward structure. Players only care about the shiny.

That's simply not true.  Many members of the community are making the same point, that the story elements of GW2 are lackluster at best.  The biggest problem I think, is not the writing (which is often bad), or the voice acting (which is worse, not to mention repetetive... seriously couldn't they hire more the 6 voice actors?) but the WAY the stories are told.  The personal story gimmick of two people standing and calmly talking, showing no emotion or action was a terrible way to go.  The living story has for the most part wisely not re-used this system... but has yet to find a good replacement.  The cinematics of GW1 were not perfect, but were a far cry better than anything we've had in GW2 so far.  More than that, DEs give a very rudimentary way of giving out lore details that just doesn't work much of the time.  I'm not saying the traditional way of giving quest dialogue windows is better, but at least it managed to deliver more information in a more easily digested way.

View PostCalypso589, on 02 August 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

IMO after this update, the rewards are fine. Dungeons need reworked of course but that'll come in time.

I just wanna see GW2 match story for gameplay because thus far.....it's been terrible at the worst and forgettable at best.

Have to disagree with you there.  Anet's solution to people saying the game isn't rewarding enough has been, by and large, to give more and more rewards that are either 1) account bound junk (boosters and the like), 2) extraneous junk (seriously? do we need MORE miniatures at this point?) or 3) not quite useable but still worth a small amount of cash.  By this I mean increased rare drops but NOT increased drops of exotics or precursors. Getting a rare drop that doesn't salvage for an ecto is worse than getting a green, UNLESS you sell it on the TP. These days, that'll get you around 18 silver, if you're lucky.  Hardly a big deal.  If you take the money... what then?  The game's systems currently don't offer you much in the way of worthwhile things to spend it on.  Sure, there's cultural armor... except that it too has below max stats despite the enormous cost.  How does that make sense from a "feeling rewarded" perspective?  Why do I want/need more drops that are at best glorified merch fodder when what we have been wanting all along is getting drops that we can actually use on a max level character?

#30 Reason on Cooldown

Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 04:47 PM

View PostAsgarZigel, on 02 August 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Let's take Tequatl as an example, since there was some coverage about that fight before the game came out.

You have Tequatl, who's dangerous to fight personally because he's a frickin dragon and throws AoE's around.
There are cannons around him that can damage him from a save distance.
He summons Walls to block the shots, Bone Tentacle things to knock people off the cannons and other minions to kill the players who are further away. Including big suicide bombers.
There's a megacannon that charges and knocks him on his ass for free damage.

With this, there are multiple things players can do to contribute: Attack Tequatl directly if you can dodge his AoE's, kill the walls and tentacles, go on the cannons to deal damage to Tequatl or protect the other players from the suicide bombers or normal mobs or protect the megacannon crew from mobs.

Wouldn't win any game design medals, but it is pretty reasonable and requires players to coordinate. in theory.
In practice players are going on the cannons and the others just murder Tequatl with there weapons. I don't even know if the megacannon even works, didn't figure out how to fire it once it was charged. (If it even gets that far)
Mobs just get obliterated in the Zerg and if there are enough players the lag is bad enough that you can't really do much anyway.

I had always wondered what happened with the Tequatl engagement, because I had heard about the mechanics even before beta.

Yes the megalaser works.  It fires automatically when charged, and does stun Teq for a bit.  But my server we just zerg him down no bigges.  Granted people fool enough to stand where those big guys detonate die quicker than Frozen Maw (lol).  I think if they just made the entire area under Teq that bad, and force people to use the cannons until the megalaser stuns him, the original mechanics would return.........so long as you cannot get close enough to hit him, like last phase of Claw of Jormag.

The trick is to motivate people to do other tasks in boss fight (motivate not force).  People will max DPS the boss, even if it's the least efficient way to kill him, unless you make the other battle mechanics fun and desirable.  I still can't figure out why people attack the door for the Tadiha battle, when you do less damage than to WvW gates.  But attacking the cannons isn't all that fun, and requires very few people.

A lot can be done to improve these engagements.  But does ANet have the time to work on them (as I'm fairly sure the devs don't have full control of their design goals).




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