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Looking at Guild Wars 2 like a moba style gameplay ?


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#1 Infuse

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 04:59 PM

Hi everyone !
I've been thinking lately that Guild Wars 2's gameplay has a lot in comparison to MOBA games. Well from the short experience of LoL (please not debate on LoL vs Dota) I tend to consider a build like a champion, the fights like those of MOBA games (nothing compared to guild wars 1), traits and everything.
MOBA is a style of games that includes League of Legends, Dota, Smite for exemples.

So I have some questions :
- The main question is : How close from a MOBA gameplay is Guild Wars 2's ?
- Would the MOBA pvp maps apply to Guild Wars 2 ? (With creeps, lanes, jungles, and not-always-comprehensive-teamfights)
- What potential does it give ?
- What could MOBA games add to the game ?
- How would you conceptualize a MOBA-like mode on guild wars 2's pvp ? (We've seen such a mode for halloween but it was meh I think)
- Do you share my opinion on the fact that the gameplay really looks like a MOBA style ?
- How would it apply to pve ?

PS : Just use this guy's mod and you get a SMITE like gameplay. Also hi Strife !

Edited by Infuse, 11 August 2013 - 05:29 PM.


#2 AsgarZigel

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 05:20 PM

Because we don't have enough moba games yet...
Okay, I'll admit, I dislike this particular genre pretty heavily, but even then I don't think it's worth the effort. There are whole games built entirely around this idea, it's not like anything ArenaNet would cook up on the side could really compete with that.

Sure, it could work, but there are other PvP modes that people would rather have, I think.

#3 FoxBat

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 05:28 PM

Anet tried CTF, said it sucked in GW2, people still complained about not having it and got spirit watch, lo and behold it sucked just like they said.

They said they've tried MOBA, even gave us the skeleton mini-game for Halloween. I would trust them on this one.

#4 Infuse

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 06:17 PM

I think that guild wars 2's gameplay already looks a lot like smite's gameplay... I think we're just 2 feets from a MOBA game. Now I'm a pure guild wars 1 fan boy, but the game is so different I wouldn't mind Anet stepping a little further into the MOBA genre and mix GvG and MOBA for example.
Wouldn't that be a little bit more realistic to have creeps attacking your guild hall ? Adding a trebuchet, some mobs grinds that build into a late game just like VoD did in Guild Wars 1 with supply camps as towers and a jungle full of... of... well biome-type mobs (for example a lava guild hall would have destroyers in the jungle). Now I don't see what would replace the gold and items system but a simple buff that buffes your character every minion/player kill.

PS : Many people complain about how much VoD was boring but I think many competitive game need something to build the hype. LoL has the towers and the farming, starcraft has the eco-style game with some little battles until the big one (there's also rushes but it's alot more polished in SC), Guild Wars 1 had the battle in the middle with the handicaps and the guards to kill.

Edited by Infuse, 11 August 2013 - 06:20 PM.


#5 DeConstruct

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 06:59 PM

GW2 skills are nowhere near diverse enough to even resemble a MOBA game. Plus you can only ever spec/gear less or more dps, no carry, support, control, initiator etc.

#6 Infuse

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 07:20 PM

View PostDeConstruct, on 11 August 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

GW2 skills are nowhere near diverse enough to even resemble a MOBA game. Plus you can only ever spec/gear less or more dps, no carry, support, control, initiator etc.

Well... MOBA =/= Support + ADC + Tank/Control + AP + whatnot ---> This is a meta.

There's a bunch of builds you can run. You can do a control character, a supportish character, initiator/tank , high damages (true damages or conditions)

I would love to see a mesmer teleport on front, pop a portal so his high damage ally can burst down the others :3.

#7 Gilles VI

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 08:23 PM

  • Most MOBA games have a very strict sort of trinity, which is not that apparent in GW2 atm.
  • I think MOBA type PvP could very well work in GW2 because of it's skill-based combat.
  • How would I work it out?
    Standard 3 lanes map, 5 man teams, people pick out of a list of figures from GW2 lore, those have a sort of trinity but perhaps looser than in other MOBA's, apply sorta item system,... So basics would be very standard MOBA.
    What would make GW2 MOBA different then? interactable objects perhaps, like trebs,... make monster fights more interactive, high importance of combo fields,...

View PostDeConstruct, on 11 August 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

GW2 skills are nowhere near diverse enough to even resemble a MOBA game. Plus you can only ever spec/gear less or more dps, no carry, support, control, initiator etc.

Ehm... I'd say there is much more choice to diversify your champ in GW2 than in LoL or Dota 2 atm...
As poster above said, current meta is sup + adc/apc/2 bruisers, differences in there are because of skill differences, not item differences. While in GW2 most professions have a multitude of build options + item options.

#8 Feathermoore

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 08:34 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 11 August 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

Ehm... I'd say there is much more choice to diversify your champ in GW2 than in LoL or Dota 2 atm...
As poster above said, current meta is sup + adc/apc/2 bruisers, differences in there are because of skill differences, not item differences. While in GW2 most professions have a multitude of build options + item options.

He is talking about the skills themselves. The champions in MOBA games have incredibly diverse skill bases that are specifically tooled. GW2 cannot match this with the skills that it has (most of the skills come down to be exactly the same with different numbers). The skills would require a complete overhaul, something I would welcome with open arms as I think the majority of skills are incredibly basic and boring.

Being able to make a diverse character does not mean the skills are diverse, it leans towards the opposite in fact. Something that is bad for a MOBA style game.

GW2 doesn't really lend itself towards the genre though. Sure the core mechanic is similar, but the way the game works doesn't mesh. There is no resource management, something that is huge in pretty much all MOBAs.

Edited by Feathermoore, 11 August 2013 - 08:35 PM.

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#9 Gilles VI

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 09:02 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 11 August 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

He is talking about the skills themselves. The champions in MOBA games have incredibly diverse skill bases that are specifically tooled. GW2 cannot match this with the skills that it has (most of the skills come down to be exactly the same with different numbers). The skills would require a complete overhaul, something I would welcome with open arms as I think the majority of skills are incredibly basic and boring.

Being able to make a diverse character does not mean the skills are diverse, it leans towards the opposite in fact. Something that is bad for a MOBA style game.

GW2 doesn't really lend itself towards the genre though. Sure the core mechanic is similar, but the way the game works doesn't mesh. There is no resource management, something that is huge in pretty much all MOBAs.

Ah yes I must've misunderstood him.
They should bring back a mana/energy/focus source back, it could bring back alot of the complexity of GW1 and potentially lead to better PvP.

#10 Infuse

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 11:13 PM

Well I think there are a lot of skills in the game that are very similar but it's the same for a game such as LoL, such as these skills that throw your oppenent in mid air, root them, teleport you to them, etc.

View PostFeathermoore, on 11 August 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

Being able to make a diverse character does not mean the skills are diverse, it leans towards the opposite in fact. Something that is bad for a MOBA style game.

Could you develop how it would lean towards the opposite and how is that bad for a MOBA ? I don't understand... Does a MOBA game need a lot of different skills ? Sure GW2 doesn't have as much spells as GW1 or a MOBA game, but there's still quite a lot of possibilities !

Traits, runes and co kinda replace the items you buy at the shop, but it keeps you in the category you took at the beginning of the game.

And yeah you're right on the economic aspect of the game, there's none in Guild Wars 2, energy doesn't count... It would be awsome that they find a way to incorpore it like the buff I talked about... (for example : +1 on your traits every soldier kill, +20 traits on ennemy kill. Don't pay attention to the number I chose).

What If they put the economy aside and focus on the destruction of the towers ? That would force them into a middle fight I guess, but still with possibilities to split from the other lanes.

#11 PhiLL

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 12:32 AM

I only play DOTA in the MOBAS universe so...
Let's compare both, mechanic by mechanic.

1) Availability of skills

- On Dota, you gain your skills while you level up. On GW2, you also gain it by leveling up, but too fast and it is weapon dependent.

- On Dota, you can choose which skill you want to improve after leveling. In GW2, skills also improve through levels, since the skill powering is based on your stats but the only choices you have here are from items and traits (that will improve stats and thus, skills).

- You can get new skills through items on Dota. In GW2, you can get some passive abilities through traits, runes and sigils.

2) Combat mechanics

- In Dota you don't have holy trinity but roles, and some heroes just can't play some roles (initiator, support, carrier, escaper, laner, etc). In GW2, you have something that way. No holy trinity and some classes just can't fill some roles. Also, the same class can run different roles based on weapon/traits choice.

- In Dota you have combat resources like mana, life and skill cooldown. In GW2, you dont have mana, only life and skill cooldown. You have energy that only affects the roll universal ability (defensive ability).

(...)

So i think both games have much in common and ANET can do better than that crap of domination.
They need to bring other game mode that is more engaging (the current mode forces spliting too much) and more challenging, with more depth.
Why not something that brings a lot of role options?
They need also to improve teamplay between different classes. Combos are a great idea but they need to be more powerful and more accessible from attackers and victim's perspectives.

Edited by PhiLL, 12 August 2013 - 12:33 AM.


#12 Feathermoore

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 03:23 PM

View PostInfuse, on 11 August 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

snip

There is no way in GW2 for you to build up in power as the game goes along. You don't level, level up your skills, or buy items that modify your stats. This makes it so there is no laning. Basically, the MOBA style would turn into team deathmatch with the win condition of blowing up the nexus. It just doesn't work.

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#13 Trei

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 04:02 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 12 August 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

There is no way in GW2 for you to build up in power as the game goes along. You don't level, level up your skills, or buy items that modify your stats. This makes it so there is no laning. Basically, the MOBA style would turn into team deathmatch with the win condition of blowing up the nexus. It just doesn't work.
Not at the moment, no.
But I do believe the code infrastructure already exist to make them possible.

Progression does not need to be exactly the same way DotA or LoL do it.

Edited by Trei, 12 August 2013 - 04:03 PM.


#14 Infuse

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 05:24 PM

There's not even a need for building something. I don't see why it would be bad that it resumes into 2 teams clashing for the purpose of destroying the ''nexus'' (A guild lord and npcs would be better than a simple nexus). It would last longer because both team would have their camp as defense and there would be no lanes EXEPT if you want to split.

There is no need for progression at all in fact, it's just a plus.

Here's a topic I posted on the suggestion forum of Guild Wars 2 :


" Hello everyone !
So I’ve been missing my good old GvG mode, like a lot of player, I assume the dev do miss GvG too ! Since Gw1 and Gw2 are so different it would sure need some fixes to be applied to the second game.
My idea is this :
- 3 Lanes with soldiers waves heading to the enemy base, giving a war vibe !
Killing a soldier would grant a buff such as +1 to the characteristics prioritized in your traits, or +1 overall characteristics, or +0.1% of your characteristics. Killing a player would give a higher bonus.
- Camps would be placed on lanes wich would do the job of the turrets in MOBA games. In these camps there would be soldiers strong enough to old quite some time, who would prioritize soldiers over players for targets, and would be easy to poke (Can’t leave the camp nor shoot farther than aggro range). Of course each team would be granted with equal amount of camps in the beginning and they would be destroyable.
- 1 river crossing the lanes
- 2 Fortress (one for each team) containing each a Guild lord and all his bodyguards (the goal is to kill him).
- A forest between lanes, inside the forest there would be typical biome creatures that would give buffs.
- A trebuchet that would wipe waves of soldiers.
- Lots of places to hide and attack your enemies by surprise !
Well you catch my idea. The idea of economy building in the mode isn’t required I think, because even if the players stay on one lane without wanting to farm the soldiers, there would still be opportunities for splits, side attacks, etc. And the goal would then be to destroy the camps and progress to reach the base and then kill the Lord.
PS : We see in other MOBA that there are roles and metas (for example adc, support, ap, tank, bruisers, etc) but that’s not the goal, at the end of the day, as long as it’s fun, easy to comprehend and access (wich Gw2 would be better at), and beautiful to watch, it’s cool and competitive !
This mode would really look like a MOBA and I think it’s possible, Guild Wars 2 style.
Well here it isPosted Image. Have a great day ! "

Edited by Infuse, 12 August 2013 - 05:26 PM.


#15 Featherman

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 09:26 PM

The skills design is obviously influenced by MOBAs, but aside from superficial similarities GW2 is nothing like a MOBA. For one thing GW2's gameplay lacks the depth and strategy inherent in MOBAs. It's a result of the difference in the focus of each game's PvP. Combat in MOBAs is very quick, with the victor often decided before actual fights takes place, and this is because MOBAs are balanced towards various objectives and decision making. GW2's PvP focuses more on the combat.

#16 Mastruq

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 03:40 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 11 August 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

  • Most MOBA games have a very strict sort of trinity, which is not that apparent in GW2 atm.

  • I think MOBA type PvP could very well work in GW2 because of it's skill-based combat.

  • How would I work it out?
    Standard 3 lanes map, 5 man teams, people pick out of a list of figures from GW2 lore, those have a sort of trinity but perhaps looser than in other MOBA's, apply sorta item system,... So basics would be very standard MOBA.
    What would make GW2 MOBA different then? interactable objects perhaps, like trebs,... make monster fights more interactive, high importance of combo fields,...



Ehm... I'd say there is much more choice to diversify your champ in GW2 than in LoL or Dota 2 atm...
As poster above said, current meta is sup + adc/apc/2 bruisers, differences in there are because of skill differences, not item differences. While in GW2 most professions have a multitude of build options + item options.

Multitude is pushing it, since like in GW1 most build combinations are just bad™ and if those count you can make endless bad builds in LoL too.

What makes the difference for me here is that LoL is actively adding champions on a monthly basis in addition to tweaking them, while GW2 "only" does tweaks. The former leads to more diversity eventually (withholding judgement on wether that is the case now, havent played LoL in a while).

#17 Feathermoore

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 04:19 PM

The itemization in MOBAs is actually much more variable that most players give it credit for. Only in low level play will you see characters reliably build the same thing every game.

Anyways, the leveling up and item building is what makes a MOBA a MOBA. Without the character development through the course of the game, you remove everything that makes it the game type that it is (the early and mid game) and end up with GW1 GvG (something I would be fine with). In fact, your example is almost exactly GvG from GW1.

While the underlying skill system is similar to a MOBA, the actual game mechanics and balance don't contribute to the systems that are central to the genre.

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#18 Kuskah

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 04:37 PM

It would only work if there was a completely new mini-game/activity in the MOBA style. The current GW2 style just doesn't allow it. You'd need some kind of progression and roles or else you'd end up with a Zerk fest. The closest we ever got to MOBA was the WIntersday activity, which was essentially CTF with 3 roles to choose from and special skills for each one.

#19 Gilles VI

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 05:42 PM

View PostMastruq, on 13 August 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Multitude is pushing it, since like in GW1 most build combinations are just bad™ and if those count you can make endless bad builds in LoL too.

What makes the difference for me here is that LoL is actively adding champions on a monthly basis in addition to tweaking them, while GW2 "only" does tweaks. The former leads to more diversity eventually (withholding judgement on wether that is the case now, havent played LoL in a while).

That is still the case, but in LoL the new champs are ridiculously OP, so for every champ they add, another (older) champ gets completely ignored because he's so UP compared to the new ones, which in turn doesn't really expand the diversity.
If you want to know what I mean, just compare the newest support = thresh to older ones like taric.
  • Taric got 1 stun, other skills are kinda negligible.
  • Thresh got a pull, that stuns while pulling, and that can be re-activated to 'teleport' to the pulled target, got a lantern that when thrown gives a shield + all allies can click it to teleport to thresh, his E gives him massive damage for a support + can be used to push/pull enemies a little distance, lastly his ult massively slows enemies down in AoE + does quite big magic dmg.
See what I mean? The addition of new champs makes older ones completely useless.
While in GW2 Anet tries to maintain a balance so every profession has its uses and strengths.
And yes in my eyes there are a multitude of builds in GW2, I can't think of a single profession that only has acces to a single (usefull) build, most professions even have 3-4.

Edited by Gilles VI, 13 August 2013 - 05:42 PM.


#20 Tevesh

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 06:30 PM

Your example is bad. Taric has always been mediocre at best because he has zero mid to endgame presence and all of his skills are tailored towards early game. Even then, Taric does actually counter Thresh in lane pretty hard. The problem is it does not matter all that much in the grand scheme of things.

You could just as well pull another comparison out of your...backside, like compare Thresh to Janna. And suddenly the new champion does not sound all that OP. Actually, Janna is a much better defender/peel than Thresh can ever hope to be.

While your post has a grain of truth (a tiny one I must add), it misses the point completely. Lol's metagame with all its constraints and imbalance is still leagues more diverse than GW2 can ever hope to be. Even dota has more variety in competitive picks, and that goes a long way of telling your game has got things wrong.

#21 Infuse

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 06:32 PM

It's funny how I'd see any profession do a decent job at support (like other roles) with like you say, teleports, pulls, shields, pushes, damages... (Well you have to pick some of those, having all these is quite op indeed). Well I think everyone agrees with me on this right ?
Gw2 is varied enough to be called ''complex'', there's just no way to use that complexity with the current game mode.

I don't see why people want the concept of taking historical champion of Guild Wars when you can do it with your own character... Really we have the skill variety for this !

And again on economy building and items : If there's none of those, what would it give ?
We seem to be on a different point of views, some say that it would look like GvG some say that it would be a zerg fest... Well I think that's where it'll be hard for Anet (If they ever do that) to conceptualize the thing...

I personally don't think that with the lack of items the game would suffer a lot... Not at all ! Player would keep the build they began with putting more emphasis on what build combinations your team as a whole will pick, and yourself. It'll be more balanced.

What I understand from items in league of legends is that they allow the players to modify the champions stats along with what play style they want (more offensive, etc) but the most important thing that items allow is the fact that you can react to a champion that completely smashes you without these. You don't know against who you're running against before the game so you have to modify your stats during game. Pure League of legends champions have counters, some really hard, some less, and those items allow you to balance that thing. But overall, Guild Wars 2's professions are balanced, and even if you can't win a lane over a berserker thief because you're a support, that's where the lane changes and the tactic magics come into plays

Now on the farming aspect. Farming aspect is there for 2 things I suppose : Buildings items and creating a snow ball effect. It allows the game to last longer, support the system that balances the champions, and occupies the players when they're not team fighting. But I can clearly see a GvG mode with soldier waves that reward no money and are just there to support the players into pushing and defending, like they did in Gw1 (exept now they move towards the ennemy base).

View PostTevesh, on 13 August 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

While your post has a grain of truth (a tiny one I must add), it misses the point completely. Lol's metagame with all its constraints and imbalance is still leagues more diverse than GW2 can ever hope to be. Even dota has more variety in competitive picks, and that goes a long way of telling your game has got things wrong.

LoL has too much variety, you can clearly see some champions never get played. Guild Wars 2 has (nearly) enough variety imo.

Edited by Infuse, 13 August 2013 - 06:34 PM.


#22 Feathermoore

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:58 PM

Once again, without in game progression it is not a MOBA. Your example stated earlier of how you think it would work is literally GvG with trains of NPCs instead of fighting over the moral boost from the flag stand. You are better off with the flagstand since it creates a focal point that you have to focus on while also protecting/attacking the main objective. It was too important to just ignore it. A MOBA is an RTS where you build a single character instead of an army. Without the "building" it is no longer an RTS and is "just" an action game.

Items in MOBAs are not only used to "counter" oposing champions. You use them to counter entire opposing teams. Lots of high HP? Get %hp dmg items. Lots of AP? MR items. Is that Lux ungodly fed? Hourglass to help prevent that ult from instapopping you. Some champions will result in people buying specific items (blitzcrank will necessitate Banshee's Veil), but items are bought in response to what items the other team is buying, how fed you are, and which enemy is fed. Many of the tactics revolve around what phase of the game it is and items also allow you to focus on trying to win in a specific timeframe or hold out till your champion levels up enough.

The skills currently in game do not really allow for a GvG style gameplay to work well as the interactions and effects are too weak in man cases.

Edited by Feathermoore, 13 August 2013 - 08:59 PM.

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#23 Infuse

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:01 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 13 August 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

Items in MOBAs are not only used to "counter" oposing champions. You use them to counter entire opposing teams. Lots of high HP? Get %hp dmg items. Lots of AP? MR items. Is that Lux ungodly fed? Hourglass to help prevent that ult from instapopping you. Some champions will result in people buying specific items (blitzcrank will necessitate Banshee's Veil), but items are bought in response to what items the other team is buying, how fed you are, and which enemy is fed. Many of the tactics revolve around what phase of the game it is and items also allow you to focus on trying to win in a specific timeframe or hold out till your champion levels up enough.

+1 Yeah well I guess my example would reduce it into a deathmatch in the end, explained like that I start to understand.
And for the second part of your post well... It's basically what I tried to explain, and you did it very well I totally agree !

I think the flagstand would be great too ! And then it would look like a GvG, well it would be GvG. But that would make the whole a 5v5 game I guess, unless you split, wich we can't always count on that. And I think we can all agree that 5v5 in Gw2 is a lot messy, and quick...

What do you think of 5v5 phases in a MOBA game compared to Gw2 ?
I know someone said that a big difference was that the income of the battle in LoL is set before the fight really begins, compared to Gw2 where the tides of a battle depend less on the initial position/engager and more on the battle itself.

It think both are really messy and quick, would that happen in GvG for example as much as it happens in LoL I wouldn't mind, but we can't have that all match long. That's why I came up with the ''forcing to split the team in lanes'' idea... Any ideas on how we could split the team in lanes ? And would a mode like ARAM (5v5 teamfight all the time, with back-up of turrets) be a good idea on gw2 ? With some little modifications ?

And my last question is : If there were a economic aspects with items and stuff in Guild Wars 2 in a game pvp mode, would it be awsome ? I mean I really think 2v2 plays would be really entertaining and promissing !

I really enjoy discussing with you Feather :)).

#24 Mastruq

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 05:06 PM

Crowd control abounds in MOBAs but is for some reasons (good and bad reasons mind you) demonized in MMOs. GW2 is very control light even compared to GW1 and that (combined with the reduced healing potency) creates this fairly dull DPS-obsessed environment.

#25 adra12

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 07:01 PM

Sadly GW1's skill set and the way leveling worked would have been a better starting point to adapt into a game in that genre. They could have each level add/upgrade the effect of one of your abilities as the GW1 abilities had an effect range based on one of your class traits(were they called traits? the different classes of abilities each class had 4 (1 being unique to main class))

You could use some abilities to replace hero skills and some could be gotten as "items".

However the lack of scaling abilities in GW2 coupled with the lack of a skill resource system would degrade the strategic level quite a bit.




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