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[x-post] The Death of Alts


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#1 MazingerZ

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 09:59 PM

https://forum-en.gui...e-Death-of-Alts

Quote

Anet is slowly killing off alts and I don’t understand why… Alts are one of the main driving forces to keep players around, yet every decision kills them a little more.

  • It started with fractals… oh fractals are character bound so you can progress on each characters… (i.e. screw you alts, you have to run 50 fractal runs just to get back to the skill level you are at)
  • Next was laurels… Oh sorry this reward is account bound so your alts will take forever to gear up…
  • Then came daily bonus chests… what you only made alts to get bonus rares? L2GW2!!!
  • Next came WvW ranks… oh you want to play an alt in WvW, sucks to be you, all your bonuses are gone now (i.e. “progression”)
  • After that came time gated crystals… oh you can only get one of these magical crystals a day, good luck ever building gear with these crystals on your alts… that will take 100 years…
  • Here we arrive today with dungeon rewards being switched to account bound for gold AND tokens.

Every time one of these things happened the blind Anet defenders came and swarmed shouting their typical chant… "what you only play alts for X, Learn 2 GW2 and play the “right” way!"

Well guess what… there is no longer a single area of the PvE game left that alts aren’t penalized for, guess it’s time for a new excuse.

I have to admit, this is what keeps me from enjoying any form of end-game with GW2.  The simple fact that if I ever want to change classes... or even builds, that re-gearing is going to be a PITA.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#2 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:20 PM

You also forgot 23 explorable dungeon runs to get enough for exotic armor PER CHARACTER, not to mention weapons.  Also, the general elusive nature of exotics overall and soulbound legendaries.

Oh yes, and high cost skill point items when skill points are character bound, with no way to transfer skill points between chars (like GW1 had).

There're are plenty more of course...

My theory is that the people developing GW2 are largely people who are "new" to anet and brought in all the bad ideas from working on other shitty MMOS out there instead of bringing good ideas from GW1.

#3 MazingerZ

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:25 PM

View PostCaptain Bulldozer, on 13 August 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

You also forgot 23 explorable dungeon runs to get enough for exotic armor PER CHARACTER, not to mention weapons.  Also, the general elusive nature of exotics overall and soulbound legendaries.

Oh yes, and high cost skill point items when skill points are character bound, with no way to transfer skill points between chars (like GW1 had).

There're are plenty more of course...

My theory is that the people developing GW2 are largely people who are "new" to anet and brought in all the bad ideas from working on other shitty MMOS out there instead of bringing good ideas from GW1.

Ultimately though, they have managers who in theory should know better.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#4 Calypso589

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:29 PM

It's true though that people who complain about GW2 being unfriendly to alts are whining because they have to work twice as hard for their rewards.

If you ask me, one should expect that.

People complain about what a pain it is to gear their alts to the same level as their main that I wonder if an alt...........is actually being mistreated as another main.

The bulk of your work should go to your main.

Your alt can do the same things, but if you don't find the game fun as you use a different playstyle to complete content, then it's prob time to step away until such time when it DOES become fun.

After all, if you roll an alternate than that should imply that you enjoy the game. If you're whining that you have to work twice as hard then you are rolling an alt for the wrong reason.

Sorry but it's true.

Alts should be leveled and geared in moderation. It's an alternate. Not your main. Quit treating your alternates like another main is my advice.
They'll all get to the same place soon enough.

If it feels like work, then stop and take a break.

My question is what's the rush? Why do people want to gear alts so fast?

That whole process should be the fun part IMO. You're using a diff class, playing a diff way.

So like, what......are people late for the next raid?

Oh wait....... ;)

And concerning dungeons, they can be done in rares. Cmon now........

Again, what's the rush do get everyone in exotics? Take your time with it. Enjoy the ride.

Edited by Calypso589, 13 August 2013 - 10:31 PM.


#5 MazingerZ

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:36 PM

View PostCalypso589, on 13 August 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

It's true though that people who complain about GW2 being unfriendly to alts are whining because they have to work twice as hard for their rewards.

If you ask me, one should expect that.

Stopped reading right here because you don't understand.

People are willing to work twice as hard.

They're willing to work harder.

But they're throttled by DR and daily rewards that are account bound.

Read the thread before offering your wooden nickels.

The rest of your tripe is telling people how they should play the game.

Edited by MazingerZ, 13 August 2013 - 10:37 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#6 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:41 PM

That thinking is consistent with more traditional MMOs, where players need to have a "main" because of the large amounts of grind required to do things like reach max level and obtain max gear.  To people who never played through GW1, this would likely be perfectly acceptable, since almost all MMOs have the same (flawed in my opinion) design.  What Anet showed us in GW1, however, was that that kind of thinking could be left at the door (anet went back and forth on this to be fair, but in the end pursued largely alt-friendly design).

So, I disagree that it has to be that way Calypso.  I disagree that it's more fun to play one prof more than any other.  Really, (unsurprisingly to me) I disagreed with just about everything you said ;)  No hard feelings I hope!

#7 Featherman

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:42 PM

View PostCaptain Bulldozer, on 13 August 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

You also forgot 23 explorable dungeon runs to get enough for exotic armor PER CHARACTER, not to mention weapons.  Also, the general elusive nature of exotics overall and soulbound legendaries.

Oh yes, and high cost skill point items when skill points are character bound, with no way to transfer skill points between chars (like GW1 had).

There're are plenty more of course...

My theory is that the people developing GW2 are largely people who are "new" to anet and brought in all the bad ideas from working on other shitty MMOS out there instead of bringing good ideas from GW1.


Well, I hear that a lot of the work put in MMOs is contracted or outsourced. It's been said that the latter half of the personal story in GW2 was created by a different company. I kind of get the feeling that many design sensibilities throughout GW2 are carried over from other MMOs. Gear tiers, tab target style of play, and gear progression for instance. It probably isn't as exciting as in other games because it's derivative (it lacks the naunces of the games that did it well), which is why we see a lot of complaining about it.

View PostCalypso589, on 13 August 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

It's true though that people who complain about GW2 being unfriendly to alts are whining because they have to work twice as hard for their rewards.

If you ask me, one should expect that.

People complain about what a pain it is to gear their alts to the same level as their main that I wonder if an alt...........is actually being mistreated as another main.

The bulk of your work should go to your main.

Your alt can do the same things, but if you don't find the game fun as you use a different playstyle to complete content, then it's prob time to step away until such time when it DOES become fun.

After all, if you roll an alternate than that should imply that you enjoy the game. If you're whining that you have to work twice as hard then you are rolling an alt for the wrong reason.

Sorry but it's true.

Alts should be leveled and geared in moderation. It's an alternate. Not your main. Quit treating your alternates like another main is my advice.
They'll all get to the same place soon enough.

If it feels like work, then stop and take a break.

My question is what's the rush? Why do people want to gear alts so fast?

That whole process should be the fun part IMO. You're using a diff class, playing a diff way.

So like, what......are people late for the next raid?

Oh wait....... ;)

And concerning dungeons, they can be done in rares. Cmon now........

Again, what's the rush do get everyone in exotics? Take your time with it. Enjoy the ride.
It's a game so the work has to be fun and enjoyable, otherwise it's a job and I think people would rather be paid real money for taking a job.

Training alts isn't fun. The challenges posed in most zones are pretty much the same as well and the character professions aren't too different either. The same overall strategy of dps and kite is used for nearly every zone. I think this is the reason people aren't able to slow down and enjoy the ride, because the ride is pretty much the same thing over and over for every play through.

#8 Calypso589

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:43 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 13 August 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Stopped reading right here because you don't understand.

People are willing to work twice as hard.

They're willing to work harder.

But they're throttled by DR and daily rewards that are account bound.

Read the thread before offering your wooden nickels.

The rest of your tripe is telling people how they should play the game.

I'm not telling people how to play the game.

I'm telling people that they have no right to QQ about the fact that rewards take longer because they're playing more than one toon.

It's kind of a derp complaint.

Besides, you may be willing to work harder but you're certainly impatient.

Those two are kinda like oil and water.

You should do something about that.

Edited by Calypso589, 13 August 2013 - 10:45 PM.


#9 ben911993

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:47 PM

Of the six things listed there, most of them actually aren't that bad.

1. Not entirely relevant. You can still do higher fractals as long as someone else in the group has a high enough fractal level to start it; the only thing that will matter is your infusions. You're still the same player, with the same skill and competence. Besides, AFAIK, ascended trinkets are account bound until you equip them, so you can get them with your "main" fractal character and soulbind them to an alt.

2. I kind of understand this gripe, but really, ascended trinkets are only superior to exotic by a very small margin. Assuming you're using berzerker's trinkets and back piece, all exotic and with exquisite ruby jewels, switching each of those to ascended will net you a grand total of... 62 power, 30 precision, and 8 crit damage. Those stats will make a difference in your damage output, sure, but it's not like you're going to be horribly crippled by not having ascended gear.

3. The bonus chest makes sense, imo, since it deters you from spending a significant portion of your playtime doing mind-numbingly easy events to farm rares. Not to mention, having such an easy method of getting so many rares would cheapen their value. (And on a somewhat related note, you'd end up with an even bigger price gap between rares and exotics [concerning gear that can be bought with gold, not tokens, of course].)

4. Having WvW ranks for each individual character kind of makes sense. After all, you'd probably want to play one character differently from how you would another. For example, I might want to make a thief focusing on guard damage and defense for taking supply camps, whereas I'd have my warrior or someone else focused on running to and from a supply camp to build up siege at a keep. However, I do think WvW rank should be account wide, but WvW upgrades (as in the combination of upgrades you take) should be per character. The same amount of world ability points for all characters on your account, just different allocations of those points across your characters.

5. ..I actually have nothing to say about this, as I have no idea what these crystals are.

6. I don't like this either. The update to dungeon rewards severely cuts into how players can "play their way," as ANet has touted their game to be friendly towards. It's especially foolish, considering AC rewards more than more difficult dungeons like CM, TA, and SE.


But for the most part, I don't think GW2 is that unfriendly towards alts. I think the main problem is really just in exotic gear being so expensive in the first place.

Side note, I definitely agree that legendaries should be account bound. Working on my Juggernaut right now, and having a really tough time deciding if I should give it to my main (a warrior, who wouldn't be using it that often), or my guardian alt.

Edit:

View PostArewn, on 13 August 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

Ah~ I remember playing other MMOs, where any form of progress was bound to a single character, no exception. Gear, rep, dungeon progress, achievements, pets, mounts, everything, yet alts were/are still widely popular. Now people complain about the speed-bump character bound progression that was introduced in GW2 due to the game's lack of means to feel invested in a particular character.
Oh but wait, GW1 purest know the true form of gaming, and anything different is the work of the devil, and only they can dictate how people "should" play the game (after all, anyone else saying it is just a fanboy). So never mind, bar what I said before, almost forgot about that.

..uhh, so you're saying GW2 players that haven't had a lot of MMO experience should be fine with grinding lots of stuff for every alt, because you had to do it back in the day?

That's like saying children today shouldn't have the luxury of air conditioning because their parents/grandparents didn't have it.

If you want to grind to invest in an alt, then by all means, grind for a shiny weapon skin or some cultural armor for that alt. I don't understand why you'd be upset when people object to having their play style restricted.

Edited by ben911993, 13 August 2013 - 10:51 PM.


#10 Calypso589

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:48 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 13 August 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

Well, I hear that a lot of the work put in MMOs is contracted or outsourced. It's been said that the latter half of the personal story in GW2 was created by a different company. I kind of get the feeling that many design sensibilities throughout GW2 are carried over from other MMOs. Gear tiers, tab target style of play, and gear progression for instance. It probably isn't as exciting as in other games because it's derivative (it lacks the naunces of the games that did it well), which is why we see a lot of complaining about it.

It's a game so the work has to be fun and enjoyable, otherwise it's a job and I think people would rather be paid real money for taking a job.

Training alts isn't fun. The challenges posed in most zones are pretty much the same as well and the character professions aren't too different either. The same overall strategy of dps and kite is used for nearly every zone. I think this is the reason people aren't able to slow down and enjoy the ride, because the ride is pretty much the same thing over and over for every play through.

I agree encounter design needs work. Fractals gives me hope will see better results with revamps and new dungeons.

But it's also true that one doesn't HAVE to always kite and dps. They could change it up and use a playstyle that completely counters this obsession with efficiency that some of the community has. Presto! the experience becomes new and exciting.

And it just takes me back to wondering why everyone's in such a hurry. lol

#11 MazingerZ

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:48 PM

View PostArewn, on 13 August 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

Ah~ I remember playing other MMOs, where any form of progress was bound to a single character, no exception. Gear, rep, dungeon progress, achievements, pets, mounts, everything, yet alts were/are still widely popular. Now people complain about the speed-bump character bound progression that was introduced in GW2 due to the game's lack of means to feel invested in a particular character.

Oh but wait, GW1 purest know the true form of gaming, and anything different is the work of the devil, and only they can dictate how people "should" play the game (after all, anyone else saying it is just a fanboy). So never mind, bar what I said before, almost forgot about that.

A none of those games throttled rewards based on accounts.  If I wanted to pursue instanced end-game content on another character, I could do so without being throttled because I was doing the same thing on my main.

The only thing that mattered was time.

Edited by MazingerZ, 13 August 2013 - 10:49 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#12 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:54 PM

View PostCalypso589, on 13 August 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

I'm not telling people how to play the game.

I'm telling people that they have no right to QQ about the fact that rewards take longer because they're playing more than one toon.

It's kind of a derp complaint.

Besides, you may be willing to work harder but you're certainly impatient.

Those two are kinda like oil and water.

You should do something about that.

I think you're still missing the point Calypso.  The DESIGN of GW2 makes mains encouraged, which by definition makes player multiple characters discouraged.  

Let's take the example of dungeons to get exotic gear.  Originally, the plan was that you'd need to do ONE rune per piece of armor. (That's 6 total runs per character for a full set of exotic armor).  That evaporated sometime before launch, most unfortunately in my opinion.  What came in was the token system that required 23 full runs to get a full set of armor. That's almost 4 times what it had been.  That's taking the work of 4 characters and making it the work of one.  That design makes playing alts less fun.  Even 23 runs through the same content becomes largely boring pretty fast.  

Why was this design changed?  Well maybe it was bait and switch... maybe it was contracted group think or a lack of leadership on anet's part.  Whatever the reason, it led to derivative design.  You seem to rush so quickly to defend that design on the basis that its what you're used to in other MMOs.  (If's I'm wrong please accept my apologies).  Just because its common does not make it good design, does not make it fun and does not make it right.

Edited by Leyana, 14 August 2013 - 12:22 AM.
No


#13 Calypso589

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:56 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 13 August 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

A none of those games throttled rewards based on accounts.  If I wanted to pursue instanced end-game content on another character, I could do so without being throttled because I was doing the same thing on my main.

The only thing that mattered was time.

True, but if you were running content on an alt, then you WEREN'T running it on your main, yes?

So when you were done with an alt, you'd still have to pick up your main and do the same content over again, right?

It's the same thing here. The rewards are just account bound. Sure you run into DR if you want a main and an alt to be in the same gear and that can be annoying but that's not really a big deal at all.

Edited by Archaes, 14 August 2013 - 12:36 AM.


#14 MazingerZ

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 10:57 PM

View PostCalypso589, on 13 August 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Besides, you may be willing to work harder but you're certainly impatient.

Those two are kinda like oil and water.

You should do something about that.

We've had this debate before.  What you call impatience is what others would call determination.

Why should I be rewarded less for putting in more hours?

What kind of world do you live in where the people willing to take the time and do more should be given less?

Also, enjoying your snide passive-aggressive remarks.

Edited by MazingerZ, 13 August 2013 - 10:59 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#15 Calypso589

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:04 PM

View PostCaptain Bulldozer, on 13 August 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

I think you're still missing the point Calypso.  The DESIGN of GW2 makes mains encouraged, which by definition makes player multiple characters discouraged.  

Let's take the example of dungeons to get exotic gear.  Originally, the plan was that you'd need to do ONE rune per piece of armor. (That's 6 total runs per character for a full set of exotic armor).  That evaporated sometime before launch, most unfortunately in my opinion.  What came in was the token system that required 23 full runs to get a full set of armor. That's almost 4 times what it had been.  That's taking the work of 4 characters and making it the work of one.  That design makes playing alts less fun.  Even 23 runs through the same content becomes largely boring pretty fast.  

Why was this design changed?  Well maybe it was bait and switch... maybe it was contracted group think or a lack of leadership on anet's part.  Whatever the reason, it led to derivative design.  You seem to rush so quickly to defend that design on the basis that its what you're used to in other MMOs.  (If's I'm wrong please accept my apologies).  Just because its common does not make it good design, does not make it fun and does not make it right.



Library?  What's that?  Do people still go to those? ;)

Mmm, i remember thinking the same way you did about dungeon tokens before launch but I do remember that it actually wasn't described that way (unless my memory's terrible and you manage to dig up something that says it was gonna be that way lol). It sounded that way, i'll give you that but I don't recall them ever saying that it would be a token to armor piece relationship.

Think about it. That'd be WAAAAAY too easy and people would be done in less than a week with multiple alts like THAT. You may be running the same varied content over and over to get the rewards you want, but that's better than finishing it in literally a span of days and going, "now what?"

I think the selling point was that each dungeon had a specific token type that you could exchange for the armor or weapons you wanted instead of having a general currency like honor points or justice points.


And I disagree about the design discouraging alts. There's nothing stopping someone from rolling an alt except their own impatience IMO.
It could be easy to do so or it could be harder but all the same an impatient person is gonna woe at having to do twice as much because they're rolling a second toon.

And I haven't read a book front to back since '08. lol

#16 Calypso589

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:10 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 13 August 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

We've had this debate before.  What you call impatience is what others would call determination.

Why should I be rewarded less for putting in more hours?

What kind of world do you live in where the people willing to take the time and do more should be given less?

Also, enjoying your snide passive-aggressive remarks.

If you were determined then you would be patient as well.

And no, you're not being given less.

You're just mad because running content on X toon may or may not take away from progress on Y toon.

But that shouldn't matter anyway because if you're running content on X...........then you're NOT PLAYING AS Y.

Edited by Leyana, 14 August 2013 - 12:25 AM.
No


#17 MazingerZ

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:11 PM

View PostCalypso589, on 13 August 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

If you were determined then you would be patient as well.

And no, you're not being given less.

You're just mad because running content on X toon may or may not take away from progress on Y toon.

But that shouldn't matter anyway because if you're running content on X...........then you're NOT PLAYING AS Y.


Do you not know what dungeon DR is?  Do you?

Edited by Leyana, 14 August 2013 - 12:25 AM.
No

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#18 Calypso589

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:13 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 13 August 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Do you not know what DR is?  Do you?

Yep. Am never really affected by it.

And i have alts.

It probably helps that I play the whole game instead of needlessly bashing my head against the same obstacle for some useless need to get a reward today instead of oh, say.......tomorrow.

Edited by Calypso589, 13 August 2013 - 11:14 PM.


#19 Arewn

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:14 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 13 August 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

A none of those games throttled rewards based on accounts.  If I wanted to pursue instanced end-game content on another character, I could do so without being throttled because I was doing the same thing on my main.

The only thing that mattered was time.
Depends which game in particular, and in nearly all cases you were otherwise limited elsewhere anyways. My biggest beef with this is that I (yes, that's a personal subjective feeling, though perhaps it can be backed with facts if I cared to argue it) don't feel it's hard to level/gear characters in the first place, I don't feel my alts are being particularly inhibited. You can deck out a fresh 80 with full exotics in less then a week without any particularly large effort. They've progressively added limitation because their system is otherwise too quickly chewed through and finished, not to mention the people who have been desiring further character progression since release. I wasn't one to voice it, but for the first few months after release, I felt like I could delete my character at anytime and wouldn't be any lesser for it, because I could easily make, level, and gear a new one (contrary to my own feelings in this case, I'm actually on the side who wishes MORE things were account bound though, I find it wasteful that I have to get a second set of X armor when another character already has it, or that runes and sigils are attached to weapons instead of having their own slots, forcing me to buy multiples for each armor set).

Edit: also, I'll mirror what Calypso just said about DR: I rarely run into it. I'm not much for farming, get bored quickly, yet I have multiple characters and the resources to gear them.

Edited by Arewn, 13 August 2013 - 11:16 PM.


#20 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:15 PM

View PostCalypso589, on 13 August 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

Mmm, i remember thinking the same way you did about dungeon tokens before launch but I do remember that it actually wasn't described that way (unless my memory's terrible and you manage to dig up something that says it was gonna be that way lol). It sounded that way, i'll give you that but I don't recall them ever saying that it would be a token to armor piece relationship.

Think about it. That'd be WAAAAAY too easy and people would be done in less than a week with multiple alts like THAT. You may be running the same varied content over and over to get the rewards you want, but that's better than finishing it in literally a span of days and going, "now what?"

I think the selling point was that each dungeon had a specific token type that you could exchange for the armor or weapons you wanted instead of having a general currency like honor points or justice points.


And I disagree about the design discouraging alts. There's nothing stopping someone from rolling an alt except their own impatience IMO.
It could be easy to do so or it could be harder but all the same an impatient person is gonna woe at having to do twice as much because they're rolling a second toon.

And I haven't read a book front to back since '08. lol

Its your thinking that's making things difficult here.  Sorry if that sounded snarky, but try to imagine this:  in 5 years of playing GW1 I don't recall any of the people I talked to describing one character as "my main".  That phrase is plastered all over WoW as well as most other MMOs I've encountered because the design of those games demanded such a thing.  The original guild wars didn't.  You heard players say things like, "let me hop on my monk since we need more healing" or "I can't run that farm on my warrior, let me hop over to my assassin."  These are in contrast to "let me log in to my main."  You may not see how that could work... it seems like your view is that everyone would finish everything super quickly and then have nothing to do.  With the right design, this does not need to be the case.  With the current design of GW2, for what its worth I kind of agree with you though, but that's really only bolstering the argument that GW2 was designed with the idea of a "main" in mind, and I really find that unfortunate, as do most of the people I know who've experienced a good game that was not designed that way.

#21 BartenderMan

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:16 PM

1. Fractals being character bound makes sense. You don't want somebody who got to lvl 48 on his guard to decide to play their condition necro at lvl 48 and receive the same rewards as the rest of the group (he's essentially holding them back so he should receive the rewards of his level to deter him).

2. It took a while but all my alts have ascended amulets (7 lvl 80s and working on an 8th). Also they added them to the achievements chests recently so you got more than the usual 50 per month (if you finish all dailies and monthly).

3. This was a great change. It was being abused. People were guesting to servers that have the event they wanted and creating overflows everywhere because of farming the world events. It was ridiculous and I'm glad it's over.

4. ben91993 covered it and I couldn't say it better myself.

5. 1 daily crystal per account is stupid; especially when you need like 30 for an armor set. No idea what they were thinking, unless they add more ways to get them in the near future.

6. This was a direct stab at CoF farming and I'm also glad they did it. I have run a larger variety of dungeons this week than I have in the past few months combined, and my income hasn't suffered because of it. CoF had become a routine you couldn't go without as there was no better way to make money (besides playing the TP). I didn't create my alts just to do CoF a few more times and avoid DR, I created them to enjoy myself.

Lastly, I don't see what's the problem with taking time levelling and gearing alts. People keep complaining that there is nothing to do and no reason to keep playing this game. Then when they decide to play another character, they complain that they want to get them to 80 and geared up as soon as possible and be done with it. If everybody had the option to hit 80 instantly nobody would be playing the game anymore. I am glad the game works the way it does; its the only reason I'm not completely bored with it yet.

Edited by BartenderMan, 13 August 2013 - 11:16 PM.


#22 Nabuko Darayon

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:18 PM

I agree... Especially now I'm starting to feel that vibe after the discovery that I'm gonna have 9 Queen Jennahs in my bank

#23 Calypso589

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:20 PM

View PostCaptain Bulldozer, on 13 August 2013 - 11:15 PM, said:

Its your thinking that's making things difficult here.  Sorry if that sounded snarky, but try to imagine this:  in 5 years of playing GW1 I don't recall any of the people I talked to describing one character as "my main".  That phrase is plastered all over WoW as well as most other MMOs I've encountered because the design of those games demanded such a thing.  The original guild wars didn't.  You heard players say things like, "let me hop on my monk since we need more healing" or "I can't run that farm on my warrior, let me hop over to my assassin."  These are in contrast to "let me log in to my main."  You may not see how that could work... it seems like your view is that everyone would finish everything super quickly and then have nothing to do.  With the right design, this does not need to be the case.  With the current design of GW2, for what its worth I kind of agree with you though, but that's really only bolstering the argument that GW2 was designed with the idea of a "main" in mind, and I really find that unfortunate, as do most of the people I know who've experienced a good game that was not designed that way.

Lets agree to disagree since we probably have two totally different play styles that kindle ideals that completely and utterly clash. lolz.

Since, as was said earlier by another, I don't find it hard to gear alts in the first place nor too terribly time consuming.

My real only beef is that legendaries aren't account bound and neither is your progress in fractals.

Those are the two biggies IMO that deserve any attention due the massive amount of work/grind associated with both.

Everything else done between toons is done relatively easily and quickly, despite the potential for DR and some time gating.

But that's just me.

#24 Darkobra

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:21 PM

View PostBartenderMan, on 13 August 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

1. Fractals being character bound makes sense. You don't want somebody who got to lvl 48 on his guard to decide to play their condition necro at lvl 48 and receive the same rewards as the rest of the group (he's essentially holding them back so he should receive the rewards of his level to deter him).

How? My guardian, who has never set foot in Fractals, has 30 AR. Ascended gear isn't hard to get with pristine relics, laurels and guild commendations.

I still have the same experience with the class as I do my elementalist and I know exactly how to play every single fractal with both classes.

So how does it make sense and how are they being held back?

#25 Arewn

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 11:40 PM

View Postben911993, on 13 August 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

..uhh, so you're saying GW2 players that haven't had a lot of MMO experience should be fine with grinding lots of stuff for every alt, because you had to do it back in the day?

That's like saying children today shouldn't have the luxury of air conditioning because their parents/grandparents didn't have it.

If you want to grind to invest in an alt, then by all means, grind for a shiny weapon skin or some cultural armor for that alt. I don't understand why you'd be upset when people object to having their play style restricted.
My point was not "people used to have to, therefore still should have to", it was "it's not even that bad in the first place, and looking around the current/past MMO market, GW2 isn't bad comparatively either".
I'm not upset that people object to having their play style restricted, I'm trying to argue that it isn't that restricted in the first place. They're certainly free to feel the way they feel and voice it, and if enough of them do, maybe Arena Net will change the game as a result. But I'm equally free to rebut it.

#26 NerfHerder

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 02:00 AM

I have to agree with Arewn. Even though my alts would appreciate an easier/less expensive way to get exotics and ascended, I'm not hindered much by it. You can have a toon in all rare gear and do most, if not all, the content someone in exotics and ascended can do.

It would be nice to get a few more account bound features, and different ways to get better rewards. But at the end of the day, GW2 isnt that unfriendly to alts. And I have one of each profession. In all honesty, If you average more than 1-2 hours a day per week, and your not leveling and gearing alts, I really dont know what your doing. Of course, I could never stand to have a "main" and thats what keeps me here, not what makes me want to find another game.

#27 MrIllusion

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:20 AM

View PostMazingerZ, on 13 August 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

Stopped reading right here because you don't understand.

People are willing to work twice as hard.

They're willing to work harder.

But they're throttled by DR and daily rewards that are account bound.

Read the thread before offering your wooden nickels.

The rest of your tripe is telling people how they should play the game.

Of course they have to be account bound. That's the whole point of playing any alt you want.

If they didn't make it account bound, everyone would be compelled to run alts to maixmize the gains.

#28 Coren

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 05:11 AM

I've got 2 mains (engineer and mesmer) and both are geared at exactly the same " ascended level " so to speak, got three alts who are at exotics and that's it, because I don't need them any higher than that as there's no flipping way I want them going in high level fractals.

the OP makes good points, but I hardly call them huge problems.

#29 Delta Blues

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 07:15 AM

Just wait untill they'll throw in ascended armor and weapons

#30 Miragee

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 07:25 AM

I add that all the ascended gear is a pain in the ass for alts. I don't play a guild wars game to wait 1 year for my max gear, no I don't. I want max gear as soon as possible and then don't waste another thought on it. But laurel's a bound once a day guild merrits once a week per account. It sucks.

What I also want to add is the title/achievement system: No one really cares about titles. PvE Titles are meaningless because of how they are achieved. They also count accound-wide instead being character-bound. Yes I'm asking for character-bound titles. In GW1 I loved making a new character and look for a title that might fit his character well and work with this character for it. In GW2 I now make a new char and think, yeah this level 2 char will probably wear the dungeon master title. That will fit him.
Also the system ist 95% Achievement based. These are account-rewards not character rewards. I deeply hate achievements and what they do to the player culture.




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