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Game dev harassment eroding the industry

developers games harassment

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#61 ZCKS

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:47 AM

Anyway, I'm very curious to see what Ghostcrawler's life is like. I've never heard of the man getting death threats, but I'm sure he gets some.



Your forgot to mention though, some dev's treat the customer base horribly, Ghostcrawler and his hand picked dev leads being chiefly among them. (he may be good at making money for his shareholders but his treatment of said customer base has a horible record)

So verbal abuse of/by developers is hardly a one way street.


I'm never gling to say it excuses threats of real world bodily harm but the least dev's can do is try to be patient with the fan base & be polite.

Edited by ZCKS, 20 August 2013 - 01:51 AM.

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#62 Arewn

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:11 AM

Why? So we can get force fed crap that we don't like and never say a word about it? That's not the way the world works. It is naive to think that game developers should be any different.

As consumers, it is our job to tell companies exactly what we think. They don't have to listen, but that would be rather stupid. There is a reason that the phrase, "the customer is always right" exists. And the companies that understand why that phrase is important tend to do better than those that don't.

The costumer is NOT always right. Quiet the contrary the costumer is very often wrong. That's just a silly marketing slogan companies/stores like to throw around to make people feel like they're being tended to (and yes, many places do actually follow it. Not because it's true, but because it's easier). Like many things, the reason that phrase exists is NOT because it's true, but because its use is effective (in this case effective at improving public relations). It's much easier to simply pander to your customer and give a 'free b' every once in a while then it is to actually deal with a raging customer. This works for places like restaurants where giving a free meal won't kill your profits, but not in the game industry where following every idiots raging criticism will literally ruin your game in the long run. Go through the forums, I'm sure you'll fine suggestion that you think are outright idiotic and would ruin the game. Do you want those customers to be considered "right".
And yes, as a costumer, it is our 'job' to be critical and provide feedback to companies about products or services. But that's not what this thread is talking about, it's talking about abusive, immature, irresponsible, harassing behavior. This isn't about voicing an opinion or having mean things to say about a game. It's about outright harassment and the fact that that harassment has escalated to such a degree that it is chasing talent out of the industry just because internet/gaming subculture is in such a state that a number of people don't know how to express themselves in a civil manner.

Your forgot to mention though, some dev's treat the customer base horribly, Ghostcrawler and his hand picked dev leads being chiefly among them. (he may be good at making money for his shareholders but his treatment of said customer base has a horible record)

So verbal abuse of/by developers is hardly a one way street.

Imagine some guy who likes to drive cars telling a professional mechanic that "he's doing it wrong". The mechanic is likely going to turn around and say "no, your wrong, leave me alone and let me finish my damn job".
That's how I view much of what GhostCrawler says. I have seen him say/post outright douchy things which I feel were wrong and that he should not have said, but in most cases it's just a matter of people crying over being told they were wrong instead of pandered to the way they're use to with game company PR.

Edited by Feathermoore, 20 August 2013 - 01:20 PM.
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#63 Mhenlo

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:21 AM

The costumer is NOT always right. Quiet the contrary the costumer is very often wrong. That's just a silly marketing slogan companies/stores like to throw around to make people feel like they're being tended to (and yes, many places do actually follow it. Not because it's true, but because it's easier). Like many things, the reason that phrase exists is NOT because it's true, but because its use is effective (in this case effective at improving public relations). It's much easier to simply pander to your customer and give a 'free b' every once in a while then it is to actually deal with a raging customer. This works for places like restaurants where giving a free meal won't kill your profits, but not in the game industry where following every idiots raging criticism will literally ruin your game in the long run. Go through the forums, I'm sure you'll fine suggestion that you think are outright idiotic and would ruin the game. Do you want those customers to be considered "right".
And yes, as a costumer, it is our 'job' to be critical and provide feedback to companies about products or services. But that's not what this thread is talking about, it's talking about abusive, immature, irresponsible, harassing behavior. This isn't about voicing an opinion or having mean things to say about a game. It's about outright harassment and the fact that that harassment has escalated to such a degree that it is chasing talent out of the industry just because internet/gaming subculture is in such a state that a number of people don't know how to express themselves in a civil manner.


Like I said, harassing anyone or threatening anyone is ridiculous. Personal attacks are absurd and not necessary. However, if you look at some comments, they simply make the statement that all critique of game developers is some sort of terrible act. It isn't.

And no, the customer isn't always right, but, if all the customers are wrong, then there is no one to buy or promote your game. The point isn't that you always have to listen to the customer, the point is that you have to acknowldedge the customer and their concerns. If you piss them off, guess what? You are going to be given the business.

Like I said before, if this thread is only about harassing game developers through private email or stalking their personal lives, then yes, that is wrong. If however, anyone thinks it is wrong for anyone to criticize the way they do anything through proper channels, such as forums or review sites, then that is perfectly legitimate.

I can tell you though, again, that it always takes two partied to escalate something to the point where people are abusive. That is just not normal for a large majority of people to get that angry right away.
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#64 Arewn

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:42 AM

Like I said, harassing anyone or threatening anyone is ridiculous. Personal attacks are absurd and not necessary. However, if you look at some comments, they simply make the statement that all critique of game developers is some sort of terrible act. It isn't.

And no, the customer isn't always right, but, if all the customers are wrong, then there is no one to buy or promote your game. The point isn't that you always have to listen to the customer, the point is that you have to acknowldedge the customer and their concerns. If you piss them off, guess what? You are going to be given the business.

Like I said before, if this thread is only about harassing game developers through private email or stalking their personal lives, then yes, that is wrong. If however, anyone thinks it is wrong for anyone to criticize the way they do anything through proper channels, such as forums or review sites, then that is perfectly legitimate.

I can tell you though, again, that it always takes two partied to escalate something to the point where people are abusive. That is just not normal for a large majority of people to get that angry right away.

Well this thread and related article ARE about harassment in the first place...
And I would also disagree with the "two to tango" thing in this case (though I do agree with it in most cases). People become passionate about things on their own, and can develop unrealistic expectation separate from anything marketing may fill their heads with. The type of unreasonable people who are sending developers death threats are not people who have been treated unjustly or led to act that way because of PR or marketing, they are just unreasonable people who need to get their act together. Unless what they are being faulted for is "existence", it does not take two to tango (in the sense that both parties are responsible and contributed to the fight escalating). When a developer who has been hard at work through crunch time before the next patch subsequently gets harassed by some random guy who didn't like his balance changes, I find it difficult to say that the dev deserved it for making those changes and contributed to the situation escalating to the point of someone sending such harassment. The dev didn't deserve it or contribute to it. He was doing his job and some idiot on the internet who doesn't know how to behave felt justified harassing someone just because he didn't get his way.
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#65 Mhenlo

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:57 AM

Well this thread and related article ARE about harassment in the first place...
And I would also disagree with the "two to tango" thing in this case (though I do agree with it in most cases). People become passionate about things on their own, and can develop unrealistic expectation separate from anything marketing may fill their heads with. The type of unreasonable people who are sending developers death threats are not people who have been treated unjustly or led to act that way because of PR or marketing, they are just unreasonable people who need to get their act together. Unless what they are being faulted for is "existence", it does not take two to tango (in the sense that both parties are responsible and contributed to the fight escalating). When a developer who has been hard at work through crunch time before the next patch subsequently gets harassed by some random guy who didn't like his balance changes, I find it difficult to say that the dev deserved it for making those changes and contributed to the situation escalating to the point of someone sending such harassment. The dev didn't deserve it or contribute to it. He was doing his job and some idiot on the internet who doesn't know how to behave felt justified harassing someone just because he didn't get his way.


I don't disagree with any of that. That's why I said in the majority of cases. Of course, there are whackos out there. However, I really don't think bringing to light a couple of death threats in the gaming industry is any different than if there was an article about death threats in the fast food industry. It is a shame it happens, but other than that, what else is there to say?

What should be done is trying to stop, on both sides, the ways in which things like this can escalate normally. I mean, there is only so much you can do about people acting crazy. An article about serial killers isn't going to prevent them.
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#66 Feathermoore

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:30 PM

:/

I have been yelled at by clients before (I do not work in any form of customer relations). I don't really have much sympathy for the need of a support group for this. Being yelled at or called names just is not a big deal, especially if you work in a service industry (I don't). When you move into death threats it does become a different story. Sadly, when you move into a PR position, death threats are going to come with that. Any logical person would be able to understand to toss those threats out the window as none of them should ever be taken seriously. If you do take them seriously I am going to give you a funny look. If you are not a person in a PR position and you receive a death threat, there is a different... power that it has. Bearing the brunt of that isn't expected and I wouldn't be surprised if that hit home.

Most of the big names in the business are in the PR position and are fully aware of what that entails. Complaining about it is silly. This doesn't go to say that it is acceptable behavior, it isn't. You can't tell me that the public faces of companies aren't fully aware of the nature of their positions.

Oddly enough, a death threat actually is protected under free speech if it isn't plausible to take the threat seriously. These internet death threats to PR officials aren't plausible to be taken seriously. That speaks more to it being sad that they get tossed around so much that they can't be taken seriously. Depressing really.


Edit: Oh I have received a death threat before. It was shocking because it was just unexpected, but I just shook my head at the ridiculousness of it since it was pretty obvious there was no real intent behind it. So this isn't just me blustering with no experience at all.

Edited by Feathermoore, 20 August 2013 - 01:32 PM.

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#67 Craywulf

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:02 PM

Why? So we can get force fed crap that we don't like and never say a word about it? That's not the way the world works. It is naive to think that game developers should be any different.

As consumers, it is our job to tell companies exactly what we think. They don't have to listen, but that would be rather stupid. There is a reason that the phrase, "the customer is always right" exists. And the companies that understand why that phrase is important tend to do better than those that don't.

Customers job is NOT to hurl insults. The phrase "the customer is always right" does not include obnoxious behavior. You can voice displeasure with the service or produce without hurling insults. Furthermore that phrase is aimed at concurrent customers, not past customers. So if you bought GW2 a year ago and have claimed to stop playing, then you're not being serviced and you don't get to say your right. Another thing, that phrase often times refers to customized service and products, where customers get accommodated individually. Expecting to be "right" with ArenaNet is not gonna happen, you're not special and they aren't offering specialized service to appease you.
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#68 Mhenlo

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:37 PM

Customers job is NOT to hurl insults. The phrase "the customer is always right" does not include obnoxious behavior. You can voice displeasure with the service or produce without hurling insults. Furthermore that phrase is aimed at concurrent customers, not past customers. So if you bought GW2 a year ago and have claimed to stop playing, then you're not being serviced and you don't get to say your right. Another thing, that phrase often times refers to customized service and products, where customers get accommodated individually. Expecting to be "right" with ArenaNet is not gonna happen, you're not special and they aren't offering specialized service to appease you.


Did I ever say anything about hurling insults? Don't think so.

Also, if you have any business experience, , you would know past customers are some of the most important customers you can have. It would be a hack of a lot easier to entice previous players back to GW2 with good updates rather than try and sell a new customer that has never played. That much should be obvious, I'm surprised you don't think that is true.

Don't discount attrition. If you take the stance that all that matters is our current customers, eventually you will have none - because, as you already pointed out, you fail to care about people that quit due to being displeased with the game.

And, as I said before, it isn't about being right or wrong, it is about making the customer feel like they are important. It is acknowledging their feelings and disappointments instead of saying something like "If you like GW1, you should just go play GW1."

That is exactly the opposite kind of reaction you should make towards customers. It is what breeds negativity. Not to mention the fact that it throws a big middle finger up at the people that did a lot of grassroots marketing for the launch of the game.

So, I disagree with your post 100%.

Edited by Mhenlo, 20 August 2013 - 08:40 PM.

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#69 Ilthuain

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:32 PM

So what I've gathered here is that people who develop games should probably expect death threats aimed at their families and the occasional visit from SWAT. This is a common thing in all jobs, game developers just whine more because they are babies. They deserve 0 sympathy and should just stop complaining because the customer is always right, and in fact, they probably share in the blame because nobody acts irrationally without provocation.

Also, white knighting and threatening to commit sexual violence against a person are more-or-less equal offenses.

So carry on, nothing to see here. Devs are complaining for no reason at all, because having hundreds of people call for your death online is something everyone has to deal with.

Edited by Ilthuain, 20 August 2013 - 09:32 PM.

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#70 Mhenlo

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 11:22 PM

So what I've gathered here is that people who develop games should probably expect death threats aimed at their families and the occasional visit from SWAT. This is a common thing in all jobs, game developers just whine more because they are babies. They deserve 0 sympathy and should just stop complaining because the customer is always right, and in fact, they probably share in the blame because nobody acts irrationally without provocation.

Also, white knighting and threatening to commit sexual violence against a person are more-or-less equal offenses.

So carry on, nothing to see here. Devs are complaining for no reason at all, because having hundreds of people call for your death online is something everyone has to deal with.


You're taking everything a bit to the extreme, eh? I don't think anyone here is seriously condoning death threats, but at the same time, they are saying that, while unfortunate, game developers aren't unique in their ability to receive these kinds of threats. It is just merely being illuminated in this article. The same article could be written about any number of professions is the point people are trying to make - NOT that developers are whiny.

The only thing I would say about the gaming industry in general, and this is not trying to blame the victim, is that they do a very bad job of managing customer expectations and customer complaints. Let's face it, deleting threads on official forums, telling people to play another game and hyping the crap out of a game with borderline false advertising, isn't winning people over.

So, I really think you over use of hyperbole is exactly that. Exaggerating what everyone is saying to make them sound like lunatics, when in fact, you are making it that way. In general, most people in this thread are acting pretty reasonable.
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#71 MrIllusion

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 11:20 AM

Every poster here is insulated from the kind of harrasment discussed here to a very large extent. If I were to spout racial slurs or sexist comments, there would be some mechanism to minimise the impact of my idiocy. The mods could moderate it, or there might be a downvote function like in other forums.

Yet when it comes to someone else, all of a sudden these forms of harrasment become fair game and par for the course. What makes the gamers so special that conventional rules don't apply to them?

Perhaps the mods here can consider making it mandatory for guru users to update their profile with verified contact details and email addresses, and then completely disable moderation of any form.

Let's test this for say, one week, and we can see if these "real world" conditions make the environment more conducive or harmful to discourse.
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#72 Omega X

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 08:52 AM

Sounds superfluous. I don't know of any game developer that willingly gives away their home address and all contact information to the public. Unless something like Facebook or LinkedIN comes into place, of which these things happen to regular people all the time. Its the reason cyber bullying laws came to be.

But I guess I could also easily over generalize and say that everyone is wrong and walk a mile in someone else's shoes and person+anonymity=troll.
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#73 Lemming

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 08:57 AM

Someone on GAF dug this up.

http://www.adventure...cles/view/17539
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#74 Cube

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:13 AM

You make your own bed. But nobody deserves to be treated with disrespect this way, and death threats are not OK, and if you give them to someone because of a game you need to seek professional help cause you are either an idiot or mentally ill.

I do believe they get a lot of shit. Some more than others, for various reasons. And that it's just the internet is not an acceptable reason. Constructive criticism is great, blatant hate is not. You don't need to threaten to kill someone to get your point out.

Some companies however, need to learn to listen to their player base. Also the ones that are a minority, because even if they don't got the most popular opinion, that opinion is valuable and worth considering. Some companies have selective hearing, they will pick out only what they like, and hear only what they like.
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#75 Mordakai

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:56 PM

Keep in mind, we live in a world where you can be arrested for fantasizing about killing and eating someone, and where making a terrorist threat can make you an actual terrorist.

"Free Speech" is dead, say what you want at your own risk, and never post under your real name. (It won't necessarily stop people from finding out who you are, but anyway....)

That said, I am against threatening people in general... does not help resolve any situation.

Edited by Mordakai, 19 September 2013 - 06:36 PM.

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#76 raspberry jam

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:17 PM

Here's one thing that many fans/gamers overlook. They have this notion that when a developer promotes this grand idea of what the game is supposedly going to be like and it doesn't pan out that way, they feel immensely betrayed as if the developer lied to them in such a personal way. Simply because it came from their lips. Just because you know a developer by first name basis doesn't mean you're friends or that they owe you anything. Fans/gamers are customers and ALWAYS will be no matter how friendly a developer gets.

Fans/gamers just need to learn how to take things said as a grain of salt, while not being so apathetic in response to what's being said. Because when you get to a point where you completely dismiss what a developer is saying then proceed to call them out on it, then you need to move on.

This is how far I read in this godawfully stupid thread.

If a developer promotes a grand idea of what the game is supposedly going to be like and it doesn't pan out that way, no one cares. If on the other hand, a developer promotes a grand idea of what the game is supposedly going to be like AND PEOPLE BUY IT and it doesn't pan out like the dev said,

Did you see the difference there? PEOPLE PAID MONEY FOR A CERTAIN PRODUCT. If they are given something else, they get pissed off, and rightly so. In any other business, the sort of dev hype we see in the games industry would be outright false marketing. You are right in that players are customers but CUSTOMERS GET WHAT THEY PAY FOR. Players usually don't, unfortunately.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway. I work for a major game company and I can without batting an eye say that most people in this thread have probably at least heard of stuff I have worked on. My name have appeared on websites and in credits lists. Yet I have never received a death threat (from a player, at least). Then again I have never changed pre-existing characters in an existing franchise to accommodate gay romances, never said I actually don't like games and would prefer that they would be just interactive stories, never told fans to ♥♥♥♥ off on Twitter, never implied that PC gamers were less intelligent than console gamers, and so on. I like to pretend that my behavior and the behavior others have towards me have something to do with each other.
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#77 Mordakai

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:37 PM

Fair enough Raspberry, but death threats are not an appropriate reaction to being called stupid...
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#78 raspberry jam

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:31 PM

Fair enough Raspberry, but death threats are not an appropriate reaction to being called stupid...

The vastness and relative anonymity of the internet give rise to many things, including depersonalization, which allows for completely inappropriate responses to just about anything.

I think that any game dev receiving a death threat can rest assured in the very high likelihood of the originator of said threat being somewhere between 14 and 16 years of age, too socially awkward to leave his (it's probably a he) computer for any extended period of time, at best halfway between birth and losing his virginity, and most importantly, totally incapable of translating any threat whatsoever, let alone a threat on someone's life, into reality.

Simply put, people flip their shit over the littlest things. They should stop that.
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#79 Graka

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 11:11 PM

Anyway. I work for a major game company and I can without batting an eye say that most people in this thread have probably at least heard of stuff I have worked on. My name have appeared on websites and in credits lists. Yet I have never received a death threat (from a player, at least). Then again I have never changed pre-existing characters in an existing franchise to accommodate gay romances, never said I actually don't like games and would prefer that they would be just interactive stories, never told fans to ♥♥♥♥ off on Twitter, never implied that PC gamers were less intelligent than console gamers, and so on. I like to pretend that my behavior and the behavior others have towards me have something to do with each other.


I will find you, and I will marry you cause this, THIS so much. This is exactly the problem with the industry is they are doing all the stuff you have never done. If more game dev's would act more like you I think we would find the community to be a better place. I hope when I finally get into the industry it will have become a better place instead of what it is today.
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#80 Culture Shock

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:17 AM

Well I have to say that I saw this coming and have already spoken against the causes of it. People getting the idea that they can say anything they want about the developers because they are selling a product. I suppose it's ok when you say this to your friends or even in a forum like this, but when you start to call names and point fingers at specific people or send stuff to their personal emails then you are the same as a stalker.

I have to admit that I had never seen people make such a fuss over $50 in my life until I started playing MMOs and visiting the forums. My nephew goes through 3 or 4 games a month, but these adults seem to latch on to one game and develop a personal vendetta against the developers.
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#81 Mordakai

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:53 AM

I will find you, and I will marry you cause this, THIS so much. This is exactly the problem with the industry is they are doing all the stuff you have never done. If more game dev's would act more like you I think we would find the community to be a better place. I hope when I finally get into the industry it will have become a better place instead of what it is today.



Watch out Raspberry, you have a Stalker! (J/k)
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#82 Mhenlo

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:44 AM

Well I have to say that I saw this coming and have already spoken against the causes of it. People getting the idea that they can say anything they want about the developers because they are selling a product. I suppose it's ok when you say this to your friends or even in a forum like this, but when you start to call names and point fingers at specific people or send stuff to their personal emails then you are the same as a stalker.

I have to admit that I had never seen people make such a fuss over $50 in my life until I started playing MMOs and visiting the forums. My nephew goes through 3 or 4 games a month, but these adults seem to latch on to one game and develop a personal vendetta against the developers.


Barring death threats, you can say anything you want against people that sell you something. Being a developer of a game doesn't magically mean you don't have to hear crap.

If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen.
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#83 christiansoldier

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:52 AM

Barring death threats, you can say anything you want against people that sell you something. Being a developer of a game doesn't magically mean you don't have to hear crap.

If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen.


Instead of telling people the extent of their "legal rights" with respect to what you can say about people wouldn't it be better to ask people to speak respectfully. I agree you can say awful and hateful things about others and still not get arrested but is this what we should be encouraging?
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#84 Arewn

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 06:11 AM

The vastness and relative anonymity of the internet give rise to many things, including depersonalization, which allows for completely inappropriate responses to just about anything.

I think that any game dev receiving a death threat can rest assured in the very high likelihood of the originator of said threat being somewhere between 14 and 16 years of age, too socially awkward to leave his (it's probably a he) computer for any extended period of time, at best halfway between birth and losing his virginity, and most importantly, totally incapable of translating any threat whatsoever, let alone a threat on someone's life, into reality.

Simply put, people flip their shit over the littlest things. They should stop that.

^ This for sure.
I've unfortunately met a number of... "adults" who act in line with the '14 to 16 year old' category though >.>
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#85 Corsair

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 09:08 AM

Barring death threats, you can say anything you want against people that sell you something. Being a developer of a game doesn't magically mean you don't have to hear crap.

If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen.

There is the forging fire of criticism and measured response, and then there is the searing heat that we are discussing in this thread. Yes, the anonymity of the internet lends itself more towards this kind of bullshit rhetoric and 'discussion,' but it is something that should neither be accepted or abided by. It helps nobody. The one speaking these words is either going to succeed in hurting the recipient or they are going to be ignored. Nobody wins when that happens.

The great thing about the internet is that we often do have some power over others, depending on the site. Some, like reddit, allow you to downvote and end up hiding their comment, although this has other unfortunate consequences. Others are entirely free laissez faire and lets the community grow as it wills and act as it wants, such as 4chan.



I guess what I'm trying to say is, that we, collectively, set the tone of discourse. As long as we make our disdain known and rally against such speech it should start to die out or change. Granted, it's a hell of a huge 'we' and I don't have any hope of that happening anytime soon.
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#86 Rhododendron

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 11:09 AM

Simply put, people flip their shit over the littlest things. They should stop that.

Or they realize that the stuff they make is bought mostly by uneducated ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s and unless they start flipping burgers for a living (burger connoisseurs are very nice) they will have to cope with it.
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#87 raspberry jam

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 11:52 AM

There is the forging fire of criticism and measured response, and then there is the searing heat that we are discussing in this thread. Yes, the anonymity of the internet lends itself more towards this kind of bullshit rhetoric and 'discussion,' but it is something that should neither be accepted or abided by. It helps nobody. The one speaking these words is either going to succeed in hurting the recipient or they are going to be ignored. Nobody wins when that happens.

The great thing about the internet is that we often do have some power over others, depending on the site. Some, like reddit, allow you to downvote and end up hiding their comment, although this has other unfortunate consequences. Others are entirely free laissez faire and lets the community grow as it wills and act as it wants, such as 4chan.



I guess what I'm trying to say is, that we, collectively, set the tone of discourse. As long as we make our disdain known and rally against such speech it should start to die out or change. Granted, it's a hell of a huge 'we' and I don't have any hope of that happening anytime soon.

The thing that helps nobody (except a handful of people making bank on it) is the bullshit rhetoric and hype that is said to be done in the interest of the industry. That should not be accepted or abided by, and the less-moderated communities that you mention do us all a great service in vocal lack of acceptance.

I respect people like Jennifer Hepler and Phil Fish for their engagement in creative efforts, but I also highly respect people who called Hepler out for contrived writing (and her infamous "vagina" tweet) or Fish for having immense amounts of hubris (and his infamous "choke on my ♥♥♥♥" tweet), even if they did so in quite explicitly aggressive ways.
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#88 Corsair

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:53 PM

The thing that helps nobody (except a handful of people making bank on it) is the bullshit rhetoric and hype that is said to be done in the interest of the industry. That should not be accepted or abided by, and the less-moderated communities that you mention do us all a great service in vocal lack of acceptance.

I respect people like Jennifer Hepler and Phil Fish for their engagement in creative efforts, but I also highly respect people who called Hepler out for contrived writing (and her infamous "vagina" tweet) or Fish for having immense amounts of hubris (and his infamous "choke on my ♥♥♥♥" tweet), even if they did so in quite explicitly aggressive ways.

When did I say people should get a free pass? Hepler's comments on games brought about terrible comments, some of them deserved. She responded in kind which only made things worse and she is not blameless for it. Phil Fish's arrogance is possibly second only to Notch, at least given the recent outbreaks, and he likely wouldn't even listen to a measured response. But their flipping shit does not make it alright to respond in kind. It only serves to make a conflict burn hotter rather than resolve or die out. Rebuking a comment is better, ignoring it is best.

If someone does something, call them out on it. But people constantly pulling this hyper aggressive bullshit polarizes conversation in the worst possible ways.
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#89 raspberry jam

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 01:56 PM

When did I say people should get a free pass? Hepler's comments on games brought about terrible comments, some of them deserved. She responded in kind which only made things worse and she is not blameless for it. Phil Fish's arrogance is possibly second only to Notch, at least given the recent outbreaks, and he likely wouldn't even listen to a measured response. But their flipping shit does not make it alright to respond in kind. It only serves to make a conflict burn hotter rather than resolve or die out. Rebuking a comment is better, ignoring it is best.

If someone does something, call them out on it. But people constantly pulling this hyper aggressive bullshit polarizes conversation in the worst possible ways.

I disagree. These people are professionals. Even indie devs like Fish are professionals, as in, he sells his game for money. Yet they act extremely unprofessional in a public space. They deserve everything they get.

Acting professional can and should be demanded from professionals.
  • Do not lie to, trick, or cheat your players, at least not overly much.
  • Do not say demeaning things to your players.
  • Do not treat your players as an annoyance.
  • Do not ban players from forums for discussing embarrassing things about your game.
  • Realize that players are paying customers and the sole reason why you even have a job.
It's that simple. The same rules do not apply to the general public since they do not receive money for it and represent no one but themselves.
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#90 El Duderino

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:09 PM

You know what the gaming industry needs? A big fat class action lawsuit that sets the tone for marketing and advertising for the industry.

There are a lot of legitimate points that players are making and while some of them are a bit harsh, I think developers get way too defensive about the criticisms.

No one should be subjected to death threats or overly abusive comments - but I feel like developers take even harsh comments (which are completely legitimate) too defensively.

There is nothing wrong with calling a developer's work lazy, poorly designed, unbalanced, etc. They need to understand that they create the environment for these criticisms. And, once they fire back, look out. All they are doing is creating a shit storm for themselves regardless of whether it is appropriate or not.

If the gaming industry wants to know why these things are happening, they need to take a long hard look in the mirror and realize that they have caused a lot of it - regardless of whether it is appropriate or not. That doesn't mean people making death threats are off the hook, but that is something that the developers of games have a fair amount of control over.
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