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"How Guild Wars 2 Appeals To The 'Casual Kid' In All Of Us"


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#1 Superfast

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 10:58 PM

https://forum-en.gui...asual-Kid-In-Us

#2 Cube

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 08:58 AM

In my opinion, inb4 anyone freak out thinking this is facts, how you experience a game is subjective. Is it not?

3 - GW2 is far from epic. The combat and just the whole way bosses are is... So far from epic.

Thought some of these things listed are great, some of them are kind of bad too. It's true, there's nothing important to miss if you decide to never log in again..

Number 2 I couldn't agree with more. The lack of holy trinity makes it all feel like it's solo play, in a group. It's too easy. You don't need to really care about your team players, cause in the end, your only responsible for yourself in the 'team'. And so you don't need to care to really do anything that's very significant to the team...

4 - Very true as well.

I love that you can pick up the game whenever you want and that it's supposed to be for casual players. But then I don't at the same time. Because I don't feel that not logging in at all should mean you don't really miss out on anything significant. And tbh it feels like they are split, they are trying to go for casual, but then change their mind, and go for a bit more hardcore. I'm two sided about it really.

#3 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 10:02 AM

View PostCube, on 22 August 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

I love that you can pick up the game whenever you want and that it's supposed to be for casual players. But then I don't at the same time. Because I don't feel that not logging in at all should mean you don't really miss out on anything significant. And tbh it feels like they are split, they are trying to go for casual, but then change their mind, and go for a bit more hardcore. I'm two sided about it really.

The temp content, time lock-outs and the push for achievements (including the fact that the game now throws achievement status at you at the character creation screen) really showcase that A.Net is trying to get people to play more.
Since this is an MMO, a game that only makes sense if massive numbers of folks are playing it, it's definitely lovely that A.Net is trying to create an initiative to play more. The problem is that the initiative to play more is founded in punishing the people that do not play the game the way A.Net wants you to play. As I said before: the fact that I can't do more than one CoF per day doesn't mean I'll start doing CoE. It just means I'll be forced to play less because I can't do the shit I enjoy doing and I sure as hell won't be doing the shit I hate. The fact that I can't be bothered to do a daily one day, just means that it doesn't make sense that I play more the next day because I can only earn one laurel per day. Players also can't reasonably expect to advance their achievement status unless they log in and do the LS, yet the game pushes AP more and more.

There isn't a problem in giving players that play a specific way extra stuff. There is a problem when playing just that specific way becomes the only way to obtain ANYTHING. This is one of the core issues that shows itself through everything that A.Net does: they have a specific understanding of what a bonus or extra reward is. The game is designed so that when players are given a reward, the reward only feels rewarding if there's a bonus attached to it because the bonus is the majority of the reward. You take away the bonus and the rewards become an insult because they simply do not justify the effort that is put into obtaining them.

So if we'd have a game where players are rewarded for doing their own thing or picking it up whenever they want to: we'd be looking at a game that has a very strong reward structure, with tiny bonuses. What we have, as I said above, is a game with non-existent rewards (in general) and massive bonuses (for select activities), which means that unless you are fine by completely giving up on the idea of rewards: you need to be doing VERY specific things and that just does not work very well with a "play your way" mentality.

Edited by Baron von Scrufflebutt, 22 August 2013 - 12:09 PM.


#4 beadnbutter32

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 11:49 AM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 22 August 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

So if we'd have a game where players are rewarded for doing their own thing or picking it up whenever they want to: we'd be looking at a game that has a very strong reward structure, with tiny bonuses. What we have, as I said above, is a game with non-existent rewards and massive bonuses, which means that unless you are fine by completely giving up on the idea fo rewards: you need to be doing VERY specific things and that just does not work very well with a "play your way" mentality.

Thanks for encapsulating in a mostly objective fashion the core problem many have with this game.

The linked to article is obviously a puff piece put up by a marketing sock puppet.  It tries to paint the new 'here is your list of junk to do' style of game as perfect for casuals, when in effect, it trains casuals to never explore, never roam, and never play with no specific objective in mind.  Sign on, look at your dailies and LS lists, get cracking.  That is a spoonfed MMO for dummies style of play that does not appeal to me.  The article is a slick exercise is marketing propaganda, designed to use words to convince people they are not acting like trained animals who depend on a constant set of directions on what to do.

The more Anet goes in this direction, which they seem to have shifted into overdrive with the last few patches, the less motivated I become to take part in it's PVE.  If your kind of PVE is solo exploration and free form roaming and discovery, this game gets sour once you get world completion and hit 80.  From there on out you are punished for that style of play.  If you don't chase your daily list of must do because Anet says so items, and the current long list of must do LS things, you miss out on achievement points, and quickly fall behind.

As a primarily WvW player, it is even worse, since now Anet is dis-owning their previous stance that WvW players would have equality with PVE players in terms of rewards and content. There most recent posts on this indicate WvW is very low on their list of priorities (one person working on it vs large groups working on various PVE areas.) and they bluntly tell WvW players if they want rewards they have to go to PVE for them.

They are skating on thin ice as far as I am concerned.

Edited by beadnbutter32, 22 August 2013 - 11:56 AM.


#5 MazingerZ

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 01:36 PM

View PostBaron von Scrufflebutt, on 22 August 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

The temp content, time lock-outs and the push for achievements (including the fact that the game now throws achievement status at you at the character creation screen) really showcase that A.Net is trying to get people to play more.

Definitely seeing this here and it makes sense.  People won't buy your ice cream with any regularity if you can't get them into the ice cream shop on a regular basis, so you offer them a card.  And each day you visit, you punch that card and after 30 punches, they go in the back and clone a new flat screen TV and give it to you.  It means dick for them to mass produce once they've made the initial investment in the original, but to each and every single customer in the door, it has value.

If you strip out the "production values" and drop in, let's say, the WoW art assets, or EQ2 assets and leave the game play mechanics, is the game play at its core fun?

There's a discussion on boss aggro and how poor AI (such that a melee boss will just clip through melee opponents to path to a ranged fighter and smack him) really makes build diversity almost pointless in PvE and fuels the 'zerker meta.  Never mind the uselessness of most support and healing builds.

The first replies in that 'casual' post both detract from his point about zergs being 'epic' and that congregating open world rewards to Champions takes away from the game play value due to how trivialized the champions become and it becomes a choice whether to scale the champion up to that of an Elder Dragon or just keep raising his health pool so he's not completely railroaded.

I'm very surprised at the overall interest in the open world all of a sudden.  Especially since despite several UI updates involving achievements and the nerfing of dungeon rewards, we've yet to see anything even remotely like a group-finder in the game, which we were told would be coming out in the latter part of this year.  With a de-emphasis on dungeon loot besides getting the armor sets, what would be the point of them?

View Postbeadnbutter32, on 22 August 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

As a primarily WvW player, it is even worse, since now Anet is dis-owning their previous stance that WvW players would have equality with PVE players in terms of rewards and content. There most recent posts on this indicate WvW is very low on their list of priorities (one person working on it vs large groups working on various PVE areas.) and they bluntly tell WvW players if they want rewards they have to go to PVE for them.

What could they do for WvWvW that would make it a revenue generator?  The armor they sell is generic.  It's just exotic stats for Badges and Gold.  Much like in PvP, they can't sell you anything except cosmetics without selling power and that's when they came out with Custom Finishers.  And if you could get equal rewards in WvWvW, then people would never bother with the Living Story stuff outside of getting a mini anyway because WvWvW is the party that never stops.  Any custom armor and skins are going to be monetized in some fashion.

They can't charge you for balance fixes.  They can't charge you for new WvWvW maps.  They can't rent you custom WvWvW map servers (yet).  There is no money to be made in WvWvW itself.  Instead, they added a progression system to give you a reason to keep playing a little longer.

WvWvW, even if it retains players, can't come out ahead of the PvE stuff that the bi-weekly updates focus upon.

Edited by MazingerZ, 22 August 2013 - 01:49 PM.

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#6 Zhaitan

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 04:24 PM

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Scenerio 1 - GW2 makes some of the "popular" game content group-friendly.
Result - Massive QQ will ensue about how ANET is alienating people "with life" from enjoying a "great/big/epic" portion of the content that these people "paid" for.
Aftermath - ANET backpeddles and softens some of the changes that angers the "other" crowd that wanted the group-friendly content.

Scenerio 2 - GW2 makes some of the "popular" game content solo-friendly.
You know the result and the aftermath. You are seeing it. :)

GW2, like GW1 in later years, will be achievement points driven game. PvP in GW1 sustained for years because of titles, emote and the potential of making the most amount of plats - by selling guild w/ gold capes, pvp rewards, minis etc. Please don't deny it. After seeing the success of these things in PvP, ANET introduced titles and emotes in PvE as well in later years. What interesting thing happened in later years in GW1 was that GvG became more BYOB, Halls became more Pug driven where FotM ruled.

I think, ANET took a cue from that and made everything in GW2 extremely solo-friendly. I was amazed to see how innovative their HotM aka miniature alliance battle arena is. Even if your team loses, you stand to gain pretty decent amount of Glory/rank pts. based on your individual contribution. I think it is great innovative move with minor drawbacks that makes hot-join games so appealing. I know there is only one mode right now. Maybe we will see more Halls, FA/JQ type PvP maps in future.

I played AION for a bit. A huge majority of the content is auto-blocked/♥♥♥♥-blocked from you depending on what race you are, which server you on, how big of a zerg you can amass, how co-ordinated your zerg is etc etc. If I think about it, vast majority of the end game content could not even be accessed by a server for more than a year just because of peopulation issues and major ♥♥♥♥-blocking by the opposing race. I don't think that's a successful game design. I may get a lot of flak from people for saying this but, ANET is just trying to make maximum amount of content accessible to the masses by choosing to make this game "casual player-friendly".

They made this bet because in long term, groups will vanish. Individual people will stick around for getting that last mini to get Champion of "whatever" title that they have been working on forever. Some of these people also spend money in micro-transactions. Profit all around.

#7 Mhenlo

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 04:29 PM

View PostZhaitan, on 22 August 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

GW2, like GW1 in later years, will be achievement points driven game. PvP in GW1 sustained for years because of titles, emote and the potential of making the most amount of plats - by selling guild w/ gold capes, pvp rewards, minis etc. Please don't deny it. After seeing the success of these things in PvP, ANET introduced titles and emotes in PvE as well in later years. What interesting thing happened in later years in GW1 was that GvG became more BYOB, Halls became more Pug driven where FotM ruled.

Sustained, but not thrived. This is where they missed the boat. The people who actually played GW1 PvP because it was freaking awesome left after everything went to crap. (see: Factions and Nightfall).

So, while they sustained by offering cool loot, it was never as good as it could have been. But, you are right, it is the prevailing mindset that ANet has now: sustain population through new loot, not through actually making things fun or interesting.

I don't think any of it has to do with casual or hardcore. I play plenty of games casually that people consider hardcore and it has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game.

#8 Zhaitan

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 04:45 PM

View PostMhenlo, on 22 August 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Sustained, but not thrived. This is where they missed the boat. The people who actually played GW1 PvP because it was freaking awesome left after everything went to crap. (see: Factions and Nightfall).

So, while they sustained by offering cool loot, it was never as good as it could have been. But, you are right, it is the prevailing mindset that ANet has now: sustain population through new loot, not through actually making things fun or interesting.

I don't think any of it has to do with casual or hardcore. I play plenty of games casually that people consider hardcore and it has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game.

I agree with you about the mentality of "prevailing and sustaining". Any cash shop driven game will get into that kind of mindset simply because it can. New content is really something that focuses on adding more revenue streams thru the cash shop. No surprises there.

I partially agree with you about mechanics. It's probably because I am aging and I like dumbed down version of gameplay now. even if I try I can't out-interrupt a 15 years old. Goddamn you teenagers! <lol> And so, GW2 gameplay mechanics may appeal to some people who like trivialization. Even though there are options of adding more dimension to the game thru more usage of combo fields etc. but, when the game can be played without properly utilizing them, who cares to bother really?

GW1 PvP became crap as soon as I got my Tiger. As soon as I got my Phoenix, PvP became crap. I am too damn sure I heard that so many times about GW1 PvP becoming crap. Within  first 6 months of launch, iWayers got their tigers and PvP became crap. I know that first 6 months since launch was spirit spamming and body-blocking Ghostly hero from capping altar. But, it was all good and challenging becaause I did not get my Tiger till then. <lol> When factions came, GvG sin-splits, lord rushing etc. made pvp crap. With Nightfall, power creep killed PvP. But, one thing is for certain that everyone who got their Tiger after me sucked in PvP. <sarcasm>

#9 MazingerZ

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 07:01 PM

View Postbeadnbutter32, on 22 August 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

They are skating on thin ice as far as I am concerned.

http://www.reddit.co...h_this_fridays/

Apparently we're supposed to get some previews on new WvWvW stuff... but the comments thread is pretty much about the entire frustration of the WvWvW community, which is apparently the red-headed step child of the game.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#10 StormDragonZ

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 09:32 PM

A lot of people try to do everything as soon as possible for multiple reasons, some I don't approve of, but my opinions never matter anyways.

It's those people who complain there is nothing to do when there is plenty to do, they just couldn't be patient enough to enjoy it.

GW2 appeals to me because I still have so much to do. I truly believe I'm the only person in GW2 with one, count them ONE, character.

#11 Rockby Quickfoot

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 10:39 PM

View PostStormDragonZ, on 22 August 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

A lot of people try to do everything as soon as possible for multiple reasons, some I don't approve of, but my opinions never matter anyways.

It's those people who complain there is nothing to do when there is plenty to do, they just couldn't be patient enough to enjoy it.

GW2 appeals to me because I still have so much to do. I truly believe I'm the only person in GW2 with one, count them ONE, character.

Haha, you're not the only one! I have only one character, been playing since release, and I'm only level 71. Course, I took a few months off, and only play about once a week for an hour or so anymore. But I agree that people rush through content too fast, and I look around at topics here and it's always about rewards, and how nothing's rewarding enough, and need more rewards to make us want to play; I guess I'm just not the type of person who cares about the rewards, and it seems like the game would be much healthier and more fun for everyone if they just relaxed.

#12 Conkers

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:09 PM

Is the OP post supposed to be satirical?

#13 Mordakai

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:21 PM

I don't know if it's intended to be satirical or not, but it certainly comes off that way.

Either way, I doubt many here will disagree:  the game is easy to play, and is "casual" friendly...  as long as you don't mind missing all the temp. content and rewards.

I do think the Queen's Gauntlet is a challenge...  at least for me.




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