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Living story putting farmers and event doers at odds


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#1 Susanoh

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 09:39 PM

I've been doing quite a few of these events in the past few days, some in the overflow and some on my own server, and in either case much of the time I notice a debate in the chat log about how the event should be done. I've actually seen many different arguments come up, but the most popular seems to be people who think it would be best for everyone to group up in order to cause a massive number of mobs and especially champions to spawn, which yields quite a bit of overall loot, and those who think people should split up in order to take on more of the events in less time in order to complete the event (which also yields rewards for completion, though arguably much less than a full on champion farm the entire event). I've even seen people farming aetherblades when they are no longer required to complete the event. In any case, I've seen some failures and successes in event completion, which is very dependent upon what other players are doing. One person can certainly make a difference, but unless there are enough others focused on completion, they likely won't be enough to change the result on their own.

This type of mindset clash has occurred before on other events, although this one seems to be on a larger scale as it involves just about everyone on the entire map. Since a server can only hold so many people before it reaches its limit, those with different goals can directly conflict and hinder each other compared to an event where everyone works together.

I'm curious as to what others think about this. I personally don't have anything against either camp, although the biggest question I have is whether ArenaNet saw conflict occurring due to this event. Considering that people have done similar types of things in the past (everyone group up, cause massive amounts of mobs to spawn and farm them regardless of how it effects event completion, which in fairness I personally didn't mind either), I would think they would see this a mile away. So with that in mind, could this be intentional? Whether it is or isn't, is it a good or bad thing for the game to have events so greatly dependent on random players who may have contrasting goals? Is it a bad thing for intentionally farming event mobs to arguably be more rewarding than the event itself, or does that simply invite player choice into the mix?

Let's try to keep this one civil please. :D

Edited by Feathermoore, 22 August 2013 - 09:54 PM.
shortened the title of the thread a bit


#2 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 09:48 PM

I've participated in 4 invasion events.  Two on my home server, and two in overflow.  So far we are 4/4 for completion, so if there are people from the farming camp, they don't seem to be influencing it enough to result in failure.  People mainly seem to follow the commander badges more than anything.

#3 Susanoh

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 11:02 PM

View PostReason on Cooldown, on 22 August 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

I've participated in 4 invasion events.  Two on my home server, and two in overflow.  So far we are 4/4 for completion, so if there are people from the farming camp, they don't seem to be influencing it enough to result in failure.  People mainly seem to follow the commander badges more than anything.

My first few went fine too, but I've also had some failures. I just came out of Fireheart Rise and there was actually a big discussion on it. Here's just one snippet, but the discussion went on a good half hour.

Posted Image

#4 Darkobra

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 11:55 PM

Quote

Updated the advanced event scaling system to slightly reduce the rate of champions created by events scaling up in difficulty. Some of these events can now have lieutenant mobs appear as the event scales up.

Wonder if this will change anything.

#5 LoopySnoopy

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:15 AM

View PostDarkobra, on 22 August 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

Wonder if this will change anything.
I hope so as I have yet to get a win on these due to the fact farmers are screwing us over on far shiverpeaks server

#6 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:21 AM

View PostSusanoh, on 22 August 2013 - 11:02 PM, said:

My first few went fine too, but I've also had some failures. I just came out of Fireheart Rise and there was actually a big discussion on it. Here's just one snippet, but the discussion went on a good half hour.

Ok, as frustrating as it is, I still have to laugh at the last comment in your screenshot:

Quote

Pirate farming on my icon


#7 NerfHerder

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:28 AM

View PostDarkobra, on 22 August 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

Wonder if this will change anything.

If they are speaking directly to Aetherblade mobs, then yes. It doesn't take a genius to figure out if you concentrate on champions instead of the pirate captain you get more Deluxe Gear Boxes to drop. The bigger the zerg, the more mobs, the larger chance at rewards. This means you get 20 boxes instead of 10. Failing the event becomes less profitable, or at least breaks even. Although it does take some forethought to realize that this takes longer to complete. Which goes against the divide and conquer strategy of the Meta Event. If ANet makes it more profitable to compete the objective, then more players will cooperate.

Sadly, profit is a more powerful motivator than success. The larger the profit, the more we stray from our morality.

#8 mattthecat

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:45 AM

View PostNerfHerder, on 23 August 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

If they are speaking directly to Aetherblade mobs, then yes. It doesn't take a genius to figure out if you concentrate on champions instead of the pirate captain you get more Deluxe Gear Boxes to drop. The bigger the zerg, the more mobs, the larger chance at rewards. This means you get 20 boxes instead of 10. Failing the event becomes less profitable, or at least breaks even. Although it does take some forethought to realize that this takes longer to complete. Which goes against the divide and conquer strategy of the Meta Event. If ANet makes it more profitable to compete the objective, then more players will cooperate.

Sadly, profit is a more powerful motivator than success. The larger the profit, the more we stray from our morality.
I understand that profit is more powerful for many players rather than success but to be honest I have made almost 30 gold by doing the events normally since Tuesday. And that's also without getting any super rare drops other than a few Charged Cores. You could get more if you farmed like people have been but i think that's good money as is.

#9 ilr

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:46 AM

Did the event once, and once was enough for me.
The flaws in its design were obvious... just another Ember farm so I never came back.

I don't want any gold farms for the anniversary, I just want a couple cupcakes.  That too much to ask?

Edited by ilr, 23 August 2013 - 06:46 AM.


#10 aspi

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 08:28 AM

Did 4 events now, all on overflow, because even after seconds the main map is full :/
2 went perfectly fine(although the first with 14 seconds left) and the other people were just farming aethers, like expected.

#11 Brandon the Don

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 08:42 AM

Quote

Pirate farming on my icon

This frustrated the crap out of me and some others on my home server... There was indeed a commander who just wanted to farm, and literally everyone else was against it... To make it worse, he pretended as if everything he did was right, screenshotted it and posted it on the main forums to get each and everyone of us banned... didn't stop there, as soon as the event was over, he went to LA yelling about the importance of farming and how we are all idiots for not worshipping him...

... It's thanks to people like him that a guild mate decided to buy a commander tag...

I really don't get it though, if the majority is against the selfishness of farming (considering some people want achievements done or something), why would you proceed on hanging on to the thought that farming is a good thing to do? Go bloody farm Orr if you want to farm, that land needs some love, but leave the overarching community alone...

#12 Dirame

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 08:44 AM

The thing about it is, when the people who are farming Pirates are done, they'll circle back round and help. Completing the pirates helps you complete the entire event anyway so being at odds with them is a little weird.

Even if they are doing Pirates in the second half of the event, they are still contributing to the event in a roundabout way. When they are done with pirates and you proceed into the final part of the event then everyone gets to zerg rush the Molten Alliance which is way easier and ends up playing into everyone's favour.

Now with that said though, if EVERYONE focused on clockworks and left the pirates alone, then EVERYONE will have spare time to kill Aehterblades and get loads of loot bags.

Edited by Dirame, 23 August 2013 - 08:47 AM.


#13 Alex Dimitri

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:47 AM

Those events are designed poorly and they do nothing good for game, first of all they create mess by introducing clutter and huge lag....which is the thing you need to try and avoid in any MMO. Second people mentioned who ever get`s it done doesn`t mind anymore on outcome only on farm....which will screw up people that didn`t finish stuff for achievements.

Getting on map is kind of bigger achievement then actually finishing event itself, it is just absurd that you get stuck in overflow without event.....wasn`t Anet biggest braging comming from "our events scale up and down", so now when you can`t enter map who cares for overflow.......dear Anet this was the perfect enviroment to test your claims, and put event on overflow too and just scale it up as more people fills up overflow map !!!!

Sitting in LA (when world events roll) isn`t exactly the best fun !

#14 Susanoh

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:56 AM

View PostDirame, on 23 August 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

The thing about it is, when the people who are farming Pirates are done, they'll circle back round and help. Completing the pirates helps you complete the entire event anyway so being at odds with them is a little weird.

Even if they are doing Pirates in the second half of the event, they are still contributing to the event in a roundabout way. When they are done with pirates and you proceed into the final part of the event then everyone gets to zerg rush the Molten Alliance which is way easier and ends up playing into everyone's favour.

Now with that said though, if EVERYONE focused on clockworks and left the pirates alone, then EVERYONE will have spare time to kill Aehterblades and get loads of loot bags.

Farming methods and completion methods are very different though. Efficient methods for completion involve people splitting up and doing events all over the map. Due to mob scaling, stacking 40 people at one event is far less efficient than having them spread out and take 5 events in the same amount of time.

The even more obvious difference between farming and completion is that when farming, it is best not to kill the captain, so that the event gets drawn out longer and more mobs/champions spawn. So if, for example, these 40 people stack on aetherblades and 30 of them decide to kill champions for loot, while the other 10 try to complete the event, that means those 10 people are stuck trying to kill a captain with an enormous amount of HP (due to mob scaling). Those 10 people trying to kill the captain get tied up for a bit, the other 30 farming are not only doing nothing to complete the phases, but they're actually making it more difficult on the ones that are by raising the level of the captain aetherblade. Now, it would be possible for those 10 people to leave the farmers be and go to other events, but that still leaves 30 people who are doing nothing to further completion, and one less possible event that can be completed in a reasonable amount of time.

tl:dr Basically, this.

6 or so people taking aetherblades and quickly rushing the captain to complete the event is good for completion, not loot.
30 or so people taking monstrously scaled up aetherblades and ignoring the captain while farming champions is good for loot, not completion.

Edited by Susanoh, 23 August 2013 - 11:03 AM.


#15 infisio

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:45 AM

I have completed about 5 events now and while I have seen this behavior (especially what you just mentioned Susanoh, and people staying to kill a Champion Twisted nightmare even though we completed the task for that spot) all these invasions completed in about 35-38 minutes.  So I'm wondering if the farming actually hinders the invasion?  I'm just curious if anyone has been a part of an invasion that did Fail because of the farming?

Also, I wonder why Anet doesn't start the event in all the overflows at the same time??  Sometimes I get into Overflow and no event (most often), but occasionally Overflow gets the event too.  Just frustrated that it's not consistent.

#16 Dirame

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:04 PM

View Postinfisio, on 23 August 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

I have completed about 5 events now and while I have seen this behavior (especially what you just mentioned Susanoh, and people staying to kill a Champion Twisted nightmare even though we completed the task for that spot) all these invasions completed in about 35-38 minutes.  So I'm wondering if the farming actually hinders the invasion?  I'm just curious if anyone has been a part of an invasion that did Fail because of the farming?

Also, I wonder why Anet doesn't start the event in all the overflows at the same time??  Sometimes I get into Overflow and no event (most often), but occasionally Overflow gets the event too.  Just frustrated that it's not consistent.

It depends on when you get into the overflow. Overflows created in the first 10 minutes get the event, there might also be a max amount of overflows created that get the event as well.

View PostSusanoh, on 23 August 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

6 or so people taking aetherblades and quickly rushing the captain to complete the event is good for completion, not loot.
30 or so people taking monstrously scaled up aetherblades and ignoring the captain while farming champions is good for loot, not completion.

I just assumed people will spread out and farm different spots so they are completing the event whilst also farming but I guess I may be wrong.

Edited by Dirame, 23 August 2013 - 01:04 PM.


#17 Noxxagt

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 01:33 PM

View PostDirame, on 23 August 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

The thing about it is, when the people who are farming Pirates are done, they'll circle back round and help. Completing the pirates helps you complete the entire event anyway so being at odds with them is a little weird.

Even if they are doing Pirates in the second half of the event, they are still contributing to the event in a roundabout way. When they are done with pirates and you proceed into the final part of the event then everyone gets to zerg rush the Molten Alliance which is way easier and ends up playing into everyone's favour.

Now with that said though, if EVERYONE focused on clockworks and left the pirates alone, then EVERYONE will have spare time to kill Aehterblades and get loads of loot bags.

this is not always true, I participated in an event last night with 4 commanders who only directed ppl to farm the aethers and as soon as it looked like the event was going to fail they either turned off their tags or left the map, all of them were gone when there were3 minutes left and it became clear we weren't going to get to finish the event.

#18 Mordakai

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:26 PM

My philosophy is:  if you can't beat them, join them.  If it's obvious the majority is farming and not completing events, I farm.  If people are running to the next event or asking for help in a certain area, I help.

It's all about having fun anyway....

#19 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:48 PM

In GW1, problems like this were easily solved... the players came to agreements about which group was doing what and where.  The "district" system that allowed players to choose which version of a map they were on gave players control over where they went, making it possible for the community to organize in such a way that people could actually play the way they wanted.  

Now, with overflows and different servers, players have much less choice about how to play and what type of people they're playing with/around.  The ideal choice in my mind would be to implement a system that allows the player to easily have control over which map they want, but unfortunately, yet again we see Anet's design of GW2 causing problems that were already solved years ago in GW1.

#20 Conkers

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 04:49 PM

I don't know what else you expect, anyone who wanted PvE that is a challenge or that takes actual teamwork left GW2 long ago realising it is never going to provide that. So what you have left (on the PvE side, and to an extent the WvW side) are people who either play only very casually or are the human equivalents of lab rats who push a button and are rewarded with food.

Given the playerbase, the behaviour by many in these events should not be a surprise.

Edited by Conkers, 23 August 2013 - 04:49 PM.


#21 Mordakai

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 05:29 PM

View PostConkers, on 23 August 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

I don't know what else you expect, anyone who wanted PvE that is a challenge or that takes actual teamwork left GW2 long ago realising it is never going to provide that. So what you have left (on the PvE side, and to an extent the WvW side) are people who either play only very casually or are the human equivalents of lab rats who push a button and are rewarded with food.

Given the playerbase, the behaviour by many in these events should not be a surprise.


I don't think many people here are judging either decision:  both are valid ways to play the game.

But thanks for calling me a lab rat anyway!

#22 MazingerZ

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 05:30 PM

This is ultimately a failure of game design, not necessarily human behavior.

What good game makes it more profitable to fail?

Don't blame people for pursuing rewards when they become available.  It is the result of temporary content gives you limited time to accrue the required currencies (sprockets), the result of uneven award distribution for participating in certain behaviors like the Living Story or event failing, and the result of time-gated content in which the rewards for engaging in normal game play are capped.
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#23 Mordakai

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 05:37 PM

View PostAlex Dimitri, on 23 August 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

Those events are designed poorly and they do nothing good for game, first of all they create mess by introducing clutter and huge lag....which is the thing you need to try and avoid in any MMO. Second people mentioned who ever get`s it done doesn`t mind anymore on outcome only on farm....which will screw up people that didn`t finish stuff for achievements.

Getting on map is kind of bigger achievement then actually finishing event itself, it is just absurd that you get stuck in overflow without event.....wasn`t Anet biggest braging comming from "our events scale up and down", so now when you can`t enter map who cares for overflow.......dear Anet this was the perfect enviroment to test your claims, and put event on overflow too and just scale it up as more people fills up overflow map !!!!

Sitting in LA (when world events roll) isn`t exactly the best fun !

Not sure what you are talking about....  all the events I have completed have been on overflow.  If you join a map within 10 minutes of the world announcement, the overflow map should have the event.

Also, since the event lasts about 45 minutes, it's not much time between one and the next.  Enough time for me  to salvage and bank my gains in Lion's Arch.

Edited by Mordakai, 23 August 2013 - 05:41 PM.


#24 Alex Dimitri

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 09:39 PM

View PostMordakai, on 23 August 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Not sure what you are talking about....  all the events I have completed have been on overflow.  If you join a map within 10 minutes of the world announcement, the overflow map should have the event.

Also, since the event lasts about 45 minutes, it's not much time between one and the next.  Enough time for me  to salvage and bank my gains in Lion's Arch.

Well whenever i join (soon as event start) i end up on overflow map with no active event !!!
Then i hunt people from guild in map with event on for party......doesn`t work everytime, and now even if i get on overflow with event sometimes i crash and when i relog i`m again on map with no event.....simply put this is horrible !
I don`t know if my server (AG) to crowded or what but it doesn`t work smoothly.....or at all :(

#25 Ryden Lotus

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 11:37 PM

As a JQ commander (I leave the pros for WvW though) when I lead my zerg in these events (All of which end up on overflow. Consequence of being a JQer) I prioritize the event completion. If we're obviously going to win (IE, last wave of Aetherblades left with another 17 minutes to go) I'll sit at an event after its completed and let the main group kill the champions. If I leave most will follow it seems, but hey, we should reward the people who want to farm for helping out and letting events complete

I've yet to run into an event were people were arguing against completing the meta event.

#26 typographie

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 01:26 AM

The whole reward structure of these event is to get your achievements (most of which are effectively a door prize just for showing up) and getting loot. You get both no matter what happens. In my experience, a "failure" means you got fewer loot boxes from Scarlet in exchange for more loot boxes from champion kills.

#27 NerfHerder

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 01:55 AM

After playing since the event scaling changes, I've noticed less aetherblade champs, and more chaos creature champs. While still having less overall champions. It also feels like I receive slightly less loot than before(not a big deal, still more loot than I could ask for), but I also havent been in one meta event that has failed since. It could be the result of players being more experienced on what the end goal is now. However, there is still more loot to be had in a larger zerg than splitting up into a smaller group, which is more challenging. Still, its a healthier change. Thank you anet.

#28 Baron von Scrufflebutt

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 06:25 AM

View PostAlex Dimitri, on 23 August 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

Well whenever i join (soon as event start) i end up on overflow map with no active event !!!
Then i hunt people from guild in map with event on for party......doesn`t work everytime, and now even if i get on overflow with event sometimes i crash and when i relog i`m again on map with no event.....simply put this is horrible !
I don`t know if my server (AG) to crowded or what but it doesn`t work smoothly.....or at all :(

I have a friend saying the exact same thing and he's also on AG. His theory is that you basically land in an overflow of an overflow, which, given that AG is one of the highest populated servers in the EU, could very well be possible.

#29 Ratzing

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 09:01 AM

The farmers vs completionist fight is misdirected. People are spewing all kind of nonsense, I've seen people accusing each other of toxic behavior, call farmers selfish ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s and other nonsense. In some overflows people were talking shit to me just 'cause I was joking around at /map - not even talking about the event.

All the supposed fault is ANet side - they constructed the event in such way. So people talking about theyir morality skewed by greed is utter nonsense - it's just a game, if I have two ways to play it, you have no right to tell me how I should play it. Also, I don't really understand WHY people want to complete the map sooo badly - I mean, one thing you can miss out is the opportunity to kill Scarlet, and if you participate in about 10 events there's extremely low chance that all of them will fail. All other achievements are counted even if you do fail.

All in all, it comes down to people whining about everything always. I played to complete the achivment, and I played to farm, I've never have had problems with either group. I have a problem with arrogant people telling me not to write in /map chat, 'cause apparently that's the reason the event is failing ;)

#30 takarazuka

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 03:53 PM

I have resorted to turning off map chat during the events.  People get extremely angry if we are going to lose the event and instantly start blaming farmers and stuff and it just goes south from there.  As it's been said, you only lose a few loot bags and the two daily map rares from failing the event and maybe a daily achievement (surely everyone has killed Scarlet at least once by now for the meta achievement).  I think it is just a psychological thing where people refuse to believe that losing is not a terrible thing. The abundance of loot you get from champs and regular mobs MORE than compensates for losing the event... so all of this constant bickering about it is just pointless.

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