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impressed with salvage rate of luck


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#1 evilbob

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 01:26 PM

Junk rares have jumped to about 2s and junk masterworks to nearly 5s, and I am pretty sure the reason it didn't happen a couple days ago was because everyone was waiting to see just how bad the salvage rate was on getting essences of luck.  And I admit:  I am impressed.  Anet LOVES the RNG and they LOVE to punish people with RNG.  Normally "common" chances are something like 10% and "rare" chances feel like .0001% (although they are probably closer to 1%).  But so far - and I expect this to get nerfed - the salvage chance on a rare or masterwork item to get luck is something on the order of 75-80% from my own small sample rate.  (And thank goodness they said the salvage kit doesn't make a difference!)

That's incredibly rewarding, since that means nearly every salvage gets you something.  And especially right now, when everyone's total Luck is low, it doesn't take much to raise it up.  So you really feel like you're getting something for your in-game money, even though it's based on RNG - which, again, is so anti-Anet I have to admit again that I am impressed.

Hopefully a sign of things to come?

#2 DarkHorseKnight

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 01:52 PM

The diminishing returns on magic find are such that even if the rate were 100%, getting magic find beyond about 150ish% would still be quite a lot of salvages.

Im rather unimpressed. I don't dislike it (considering I had all of 3 MF before the update), but eventually you get to a point where each green MF item is a <5% of 1% magic find at that point its not so impresseive anymore.

Edited by DarkHorseKnight, 04 September 2013 - 02:00 PM.


#3 Scizzor

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 02:08 PM

View PostDarkHorseKnight, on 04 September 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

The diminishing returns on magic find are such that even if the rate were 100%, getting magic find beyond about 150ish% would still be quite a lot of salvages.

I agree with DarkHorseKnight. I have about 50% mf atm and it's taking incraeasingly more essences for each level. I imagine after 100% mf that it will require A LOT of essences to make a difference. Not that I am complaining. It makes sense to increase the required essences to level up after each level gained.

#4 Kratimas

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 03:45 PM

I agree with Dark and Scizzor.

I was impressed at first with how many essence I was getting while salvaging.

But then when I saw how little the % was after double clicking each essence, it was a shock.

I too am not complaining as I don't mind it taking some time to level up MF.

I was the type that never wore MF gear so this is truely a bonus for me.

I am at 50% right now and that is the most MF I have ever had, except for the SS thing that gave you like 200% or whatever it was.

Edited by Kratimas, 04 September 2013 - 03:45 PM.


#5 MazingerZ

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 03:51 PM

View PostScizzor, on 04 September 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

I agree with DarkHorseKnight. I have about 50% mf atm and it's taking incraeasingly more essences for each level. I imagine after 100% mf that it will require A LOT of essences to make a difference. Not that I am complaining. It makes sense to increase the required essences to level up after each level gained.

You must explain to me how that makes sense.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#6 Simon1812

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 04:57 PM

I think I was getting more stuff in terms of rares and exotic before the yesterday patch, am still glad I hoarded tons of champs boxes I got like half a dozen of stacks of that bloodstone dust .

#7 evilbob

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 07:09 PM

For reference on the luck bar:

http://wiki.guildwar...m/wiki/Luck_Bar

Once you get into the upper 50s it definitely slows down.  By the upper 90s it takes 100 addtional luck each level.  Still though, I expected that getting to even 50% MF would be like farming for a legendary, and it isn't - so that still makes me impressed.  :)  In the meantime, leveling your crafting went from being a horrific money sink to just a terrible money sink.

#8 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 06:46 AM

I'm at 80% MF and haven't had any problems.

Stop being bad at salvaging and step it up.

#9 Redhawk2007

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 07:22 AM

I'm finding myself frustrated with what is becoming a massive clickfest from hell. Yeah, the drop rate on luck essence is good, but it takes a lot of essence to raise mf a point and the amount needed to fill the bar gets higher and higher as you progress. Already I feel I am doing way too much clicking and my hands are sore from opening all those karma drops from champ farming. Now there's something new to click on. Click.click.click is not my idea of fun.

There is also the opportunity cost of not vendoring this stuff, which in the end I expect will be huge. Figure a very conservative average of 1.5s for a green and .75 for a blue and that lost money starts to add up over time, as does the cost of salvage kits.It also makes tedious beyond belief champ farming a necessity because there is no other way to get that many blues and greens to drop in such a short time except the tp.

The result of increased demand for crap items to salvage is these items are now overpriced on the tp an what is worse, there are now less items available for purchase for people who need these items to level. Having just leveled a new mesmer prior to this change, I found it very difficult to get level and class appropriate gear for my toon on the tp, having to wear the same low level crap gear way past its expiration date unless I got lucky with karma gear.

What's absurd about all  this of course is that increased mf doesn't guarantee you better drops, because Anet can just turn around and nerf the hell out of the drop rates, as they've done in Orr. By the time you get to 300 mf you may need 300 mf just to get anything.

So no, Anet hasn't deviated from its grindy "no grind" philosophy. This is just another tedious addition to Grind Wars 2.

#10 Gilles VI

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 07:40 AM

View PostRedhawk2007, on 05 September 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

I'm finding myself frustrated with what is becoming a massive clickfest from hell. Yeah, the drop rate on luck essence is good, but it takes a lot of essence to raise mf a point and the amount needed to fill the bar gets higher and higher as you progress. Already I feel I am doing way too much clicking and my hands are sore from opening all those karma drops from champ farming. Now there's something new to click on. Click.click.click is not my idea of fun.

There is also the opportunity cost of not vendoring this stuff, which in the end I expect will be huge. Figure a very conservative average of 1.5s for a green and .75 for a blue and that lost money starts to add up over time, as does the cost of salvage kits.It also makes tedious beyond belief champ farming a necessity because there is no other way to get that many blues and greens to drop in such a short time except the tp.

The result of increased demand for crap items to salvage is these items are now overpriced on the tp an what is worse, there are now less items available for purchase for people who need these items to level. Having just leveled a new mesmer prior to this change, I found it very difficult to get level and class appropriate gear for my toon on the tp, having to wear the same low level crap gear way past its expiration date unless I got lucky with karma gear.

What's absurd about all  this of course is that increased mf doesn't guarantee you better drops, because Anet can just turn around and nerf the hell out of the drop rates, as they've done in Orr. By the time you get to 300 mf you may need 300 mf just to get anything.

So no, Anet hasn't deviated from its grindy "no grind" philosophy. This is just another tedious addition to Grind Wars 2.

Wow...
Just do some dungeons/fractals and your entire inventory is filled with greens/blues..
This is isn't something you should max in a week dude, the progressive amount needed to level it up really suggests they see it as a long-term goal for people to aim for.

+ If you hate the clicking, use a laptop with touchpad, much easier :)
Or there might be a couple of programs around that might be usefull for that.

#11 dannywolt

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:19 AM

View PostRedhawk2007, on 05 September 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

I'm finding myself frustrated with what is becoming a massive clickfest from hell. Yeah, the drop rate on luck essence is good, but it takes a lot of essence to raise mf a point and the amount needed to fill the bar gets higher and higher as you progress. Already I feel I am doing way too much clicking and my hands are sore from opening all those karma drops from champ farming. Now there's something new to click on. Click.click.click is not my idea of fun.

Stack the low level essence and use the artificer crafting profession to refine it to higher tiers. There is no loss of luck points when doing so.

Edited by dannywolt, 05 September 2013 - 10:19 AM.


#12 evilbob

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:58 PM

I was pretty sure the entire point was to drain more gold out of the economy.  (In the short term, it has even dropped the price of gems ever so slightly.)  However, it will be interesting to see how it works out in the long term.  Over the course of a year of play, for example, even if you lost 20g on selling junk to the vendor to raise your magic find, will you end up finding more than 20g's worth of extra loot you can sell?  And don't forget:  when you salvage stuff, it's not like you get nothing.  You'll still get crafting mats, and many of those are still worth something as well.

I'm starting to suspect the net effect on our bank accounts will eventually be positive - except that unlike the previous incarnation of magic find, it will be positive for -everyone- and not just the people who sacrifice their stats to heavily invest in MF.

As for the clicking complaint, the above post helps.  Also that seems a bit trivial overall, doesn't it?

Regarding gearing low level alts, the average prices have more than doubled, it's true - but we're still talking about 2s for a piece of gear as opposed to ~80c.  That's not going to kill anyone's bank account.  And so many people have complained that karma isn't worth anything, that's another good reason to buy karma gear.  And I dispute that this has artificially inflated the value of those items.  I'd say it's returned them to a normal value.

Still, "disharmony" is afoot and it will be interesting to see how this all shakes out in the end.

#13 Darkobra

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:07 PM

View Postdannywolt, on 05 September 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Stack the low level essence and use the artificer crafting profession to refine it to higher tiers. There is no loss of luck points when doing so.

*smacks head against desk* Guess who double clicked 5000 blue essence?

Also, I noticed a 1 in 1000 chance of yellow essence from a blue item. That was a nice surprise.

#14 evilbob

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:11 PM

When I read things like "5000 essence" it reminds me that I am playing a different game than some people.  :)

#15 Darkobra

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:14 PM

I'm still playing the same game. Just that I now get rewarded more for it.

#16 Redhawk2007

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:50 PM

View Postdannywolt, on 05 September 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

Stack the low level essence and use the artificer crafting profession to refine it to higher tiers. There is no loss of luck points when doing so.

Wow, didn't know you could do that! Thanks for the suggestion. I will try that. My fingers thank you too!

#17 evilbob

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:54 PM

View PostDarkobra, on 05 September 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

I'm still playing the same game. Just that I now get rewarded more for it.
I wouldn't characterize the difference between us that way at all.

#18 Redhawk2007

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:55 PM

View Postevilbob, on 05 September 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:


As for the clicking complaint, the above post helps.  Also that seems a bit trivial overall, doesn't it?

There is nothing trivial about repetitive stress injury. I have arthritis and fibromyalgia and avoid clickfest games like the plague. GW2 hasn't been too bad click-wise until recently with the karma drops and now the essence, though dannywolt's suggestion will help that immensely. Quickly double-clicking hurts my hands more than the single click needed to salvage, so that wont be as tough though it will still be tedious.

#19 DarkHorseKnight

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 06:47 AM

The diminishing returns had to lock it down at some point. I just wish that point was more like 180-200ish MF rather then around 100ish.

I mean it is in game forever now, so forever is a long time and a lot of salvages so they need the diminishing returns but I think they bite down to early.

I also think Id be much much happier with a lower rate on the MF boosting items but get more MF per item.

#20 aspi

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:06 AM

It would be very bad if people got 300% very fast. It would take me a long time to get to 100, let alone the rest. I can see myself stopping this salvaging because it would take what 10k to get from 150 to 151?
On the other hand selling greens wont make me richt or anything.

#21 evilbob

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 02:23 PM

The "real" diminishing returns - which will be quite tricky to calculate and possibly different for every individual - is the point at which your returns on MF are generating enough extra income that it's worth it, but you don't believe more MF will make enough of a difference to continue to invest in it.  For example, if you get to 100 MF, is it really worth ~400 salvaged items to get to 101%?  Will you really see a continued return on investment?  Or is the benefit from 100% enough?  Obviously for some, only the maximum will be enough.  For many, I suspect the low 20s or 30s will be fine.  :)

Now that the "luck chart" on the wiki (linked above) is getting filled out, you can see about how much it takes to increase at those higher levels.  For example, around 150, it takes about 12,000 luck to go up 1%.  I'm sure someone else will come out with a much better chart to show this, but I'm going to estimate that the luck-to-salvage ratio is about 10 luck per salvage.  (That's based on the roughly 75% chance - another guess - of getting something from a salvage, and the chance that you might get a slightly better essence each time.  Still:  a complete guess.)  I think low-end blues for salvage are probably a little overpriced at the moment, since everyone's trying to get in on the luck action and get some nice base numbers going, but let's say they'll settle back around 1.5 silver per blue (slightly less than double the pre-patch price).  So again, completely guessing, but we'll call that 1.5 silver per 10 luck.  That's 1200 x 1.5 silver, or 1800 silver, or 1.8 gold, to raise your luck stat from 150 to 151.  We'll do some rounding and pretend that it would cost you about 18 gold (either in direct purchases or in lost value from not selling your loot) to get from 150 to 160.  The question becomes:  is that worth it?  Does that extra 10% (when you already have 150) mean anything?  Will you ever recoup that 18g?  Without true drop numbers, it's impossible to even estimate how long that would take.  And of course, some optimists would already say:  but if that extra 10% got you a precursor, it would pay for itself 30 times over!  But on average, I would think it would take hundreds of hours to really see a benefit from that extra 10%.  And the investment would be huge.

Of course, if you already had a zillion gold, you'd have bought up tens of thousands of rares on the cheap already, significantly lowering that cost (as has occured).  And of course, the higher magic find will pay for itself sooner the sooner you get it.  So it is definitely a long-term investment for a few.

#22 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:23 PM

It takes 122,540 luck points to get to +100 MF.  That's over 12,000 of the 10 luck essences that are the most common, or even 2400 of the 50 MF essences that are slightly less common.  TO get up to 125 MF, its almost double what it is to get 100.  Just how many blue and green drops have you guys had in say, a year of playing the game?  Would you rank that number as high as say, 10000?  (My guess is that the actual number is very much less).  I'm (very roughly) estimating 9-10 thousand successful salvages to get your MF up to 100.  In normal play time, how many years would that be for you?  

Now, how much money would you get from selling, even to the merchant, 9-10 thousand blues/greens?  One, again rough, estimate is that selling those would net you somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 gold from the vendor, possibly quite a bit more from the TP.  That's gold that normally would have been in your bank (or even better being used for something cool!)  that now you'll be not having because you want to increase your MF a THIRD of the way to max.

To call this grind would be an insult to the grind in other MMOs.  To think you'll be making more money because of these changes, on average, would be flat out wrong, (but hey, RNG might eventually work in your favor) unless you ignore MF and accept the by-default-crappy drops. One thing I do foresee, though, is that by the end of next year, we will ALL find the idea of buying gems to convert to gold a lot more tempting.  Well played, Anet.  

#23 evilbob

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 08:45 PM

Tinfoil hat conspiracies aside, this is another good way to ask, "how much magic find is enough?"

It takes 10,000 luck to get to 44%.  It takes another 10,000 to get to 57%.  Twice the effort for a 13% gain:  is it worth it?  And as above, the same effort to get to 100% MF doubled will get you to about 125.  Is that worth it?  Maybe, maybe not.  It really comes down to:  how long do you think it will take to recoup your investment, and do you think the game will even last that long or that you'll even play that much (if we're talking 5 years, etc.).

Another factor, of course, is whether or not you paid close to vendor price for junk blues and greens to boost up your MF or if you're paying today's prices.  Needless to say, planning ahead once again gains you a huge benefit.

Of course, this is all really academic for the vast majority of players.  I have a feeling the vast majority just went from <5% MF to >20% with this update.  And now they're making more money on loot.  Win-win!  I have a feeling even after another year, very few people will actually be over 100% MF, because very few can afford it.  But we shall see.

#24 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:11 PM

View Postevilbob, on 06 September 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

Tinfoil hat conspiracies aside, this is another good way to ask, "how much magic find is enough?"

It takes 10,000 luck to get to 44%.  It takes another 10,000 to get to 57%.  Twice the effort for a 13% gain:  is it worth it?  And as above, the same effort to get to 100% MF doubled will get you to about 125.  Is that worth it?  Maybe, maybe not.  It really comes down to:  how long do you think it will take to recoup your investment, and do you think the game will even last that long or that you'll even play that much (if we're talking 5 years, etc.).

Another factor, of course, is whether or not you paid close to vendor price for junk blues and greens to boost up your MF or if you're paying today's prices.  Needless to say, planning ahead once again gains you a huge benefit.

Of course, this is all really academic for the vast majority of players.  I have a feeling the vast majority just went from <5% MF to >20% with this update.  And now they're making more money on loot.  Win-win!  I have a feeling even after another year, very few people will actually be over 100% MF, because very few can afford it.  But we shall see.

In general, I agree with what you're saying.  However, to anyone who just lost out on magic find gear, which could take you WELL above the numbers we're now seeing as reasonable to expect; people who's only compensation was that they could changes stats (often on soulbound gear they no longer have any use for), I imagine this new system is extremely disappointing.  I personally used very little magic find gear until recently and I noticed a huge difference in drops between not having any and having even around 100 MF.  With a common gripe about the game being that it feels unrewarding and grindy for good drops, this really does strike me as a very odd way of addressing those issues on Anet's part.

#25 Castaa

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 04:23 AM

Doesn't MF also increase mob dropped tier 6 materials chances?  Increasing those chances could be much more profitable than gear drops.

Another aspect of MF, IIRC, is that it only increases that chances of looting (from a mob) a higher quality item and does not increase the chances of more items being dropped on average.

But I agree, unless one is spending 8 hours a day grinding in game, grinding luck up past 100 or so seems like a net money loser.

Edited by Castaa, 09 September 2013 - 04:34 AM.


#26 Mastruq

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 12:46 PM

I want the game to have longevity and I want my salvage in 3 years to still contribute to slowly (by then probably very, very slowly) increasing the MF. On the salvaging side they didnt take anything away, they just gave automatic vendor bait another purpose. Anyone that doesnt care for that can still sell the stuff like before.The MMO "must have now" locusts might dislike it but I dont consider that attitude healthy for a game anyway.

The MF change was solved really well, I didnt like MF on gear and now it's gone, while adding to the game by stimulating economy and adding a longterm goal for the players that care about it. the only small downside is that they didnt give celestial a slight compensation but that's no big deal to me.

#27 moomooo1

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 01:01 PM

I think people are misunderstanding the situation here. The problem lied with MF on gear. PuGs didn't like having a random sped on their team contributing less to gain more. They've fixed that.

Now MF is still one's own individual decision to make, but doesn't impact the group anymore. Just because the cap is at 300%, why do you have to reach it? Can't you decide on your own what level you want to leave your MF at? Or do you need to be max everything because that's the limitation of the game and you can't make your own conclusion?

Some people just find the faults in everything.




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