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GW2 caters more to the hardcore players than GW1 did


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#1 Daesu

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:20 PM

In GW1, most of the grind is related to mere cosmetic differences like skins and titles.  Everyone can easily get a max stat weapon and armor.  There was some amount of grind  for allegiance points to have a slightly higher performance in pve skill level but it was still easy to reach max skill performance for pve skills with minimal grind.

Now compare this to GW2, with the number of soul-bound and account-bound items items and ascended items, you can't buy them from the Trading Post even if you have the gold.  Other than the Legendary weapons which require a HUGE amount of gold, a casual player who doesn't spend as much time in the game, would have a problem getting ascended items which are account-bound.

Do we need ascended items to play this game?  Maybe not, but if the casual player hopes to play dungeons then he may not be able to party with hardcore players?  Why?  Because hardcore players would demand the max performance gear, with ascended trinkets, back items, weapons, and armor.  This further excludes casual players from the game as they would be stuck in the exotic tier for a very long time with no means to pay their way to ascended gear.

Edited by Daesu, 04 September 2013 - 10:22 PM.


#2 Elric of Grans

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:30 PM

Perhaps I am just a bad player, but I have enough trouble with exotics without worrying about ascendant or legendary.  I can (and do) spend all day in Orr, not enjoying myself, and walk away with one Tier-6 Fine Material and probably not even one Ecto.  The only Exotic items I have were when I broke down, spent most of my cash at the TP and bought all the materials I needed.  I was a pre-order early starter :P

I find WvWvW too unwelcoming, Dungeons too difficult and just die over and over in Orr.  People (especially on this forum) love to tell me that the game is a cake walk, but for me it is not.  I was brought into this game by two friends who are GW1 fans, who played,,, was it called `hardcore'?  Some kind of special mode that made the game super-hard.  They struggle in this game more than I do.

#3 Daesu

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:38 PM

Yeah I agree that GW1 is an easier game in terms of reaction time.  But in certain sense, GW1 allows you to provide a deeper level of planning for your builds and the builds of your heroes.

But because it is easy to get max stat weapons and armor in GW1, it is also less gear-dependent for your performance than GW2 is.  With Ascended gear in GW2 being reserved for the hardcore players because they are account-bound/soul-bound on use and require account-bound ingredients to craft.  Even though Legendaries can be bought, they cost such an absurd amount of gold that they are not an option for most casual players.

Edited by Daesu, 04 September 2013 - 10:46 PM.


#4 Captain Bulldozer

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 10:47 PM

We may have to disagree on the meaning of the word "minimal".  I never found the level of grind needed to maximize the effectiveness of the Kurzick/Luxon skills to be anything but ridiculous, even after they lessened it to rank 8 (or whatever it was). I do agree though, the the way exotics are treated is extremely bad.  The exotic armor that can be obtained without serious grind is only temple armor and has quite limited stats.  The exotic weapon rewards without some serious magic find are few and far between, and completing lvl 80 zones rewards you lvl 76-78 exotics.  

As for the number of soul-bound and account bound items, while I am generally not a fan, I have to conclude that it's largely a necessity due to the global trading post.  (Bad design much?). If nothing was bound, as it usually was in GW1, the economy would simply implode.  

As for acquiring ascended weapons... it does seem like a huge pile of grind... but it's hard to say exactly how long it would take a casual player to be able to do it.  Other than ectos, most of the mats required are not extremely difficult to get over time by just playing the game.  Really I just think ascended stuff is way out of line when compared to the other crafting tiers, in a way I deem unnecessary.

Now, as far as hard-core players vs casuals for grouping, well that, I'm afraid is always going to be a problem in any game.  We saw rank/title/build discrimination in GW1 quite a bit for certain things, and we have stuff like discrimination in Fractals/PvP now.  As long as there are min/maxers, there will be people who don't want non-min/maxers in their group.  That's a human problem more than anything to do with GW2 I'd say.

So, no I don't think GW2 caters more to the hardcore crowd.  I actually think it does well at not being designed mostly for either crowd, which is exactly why so many people of both crowds are unhappy with it.  I do question and disagree with a lot of design decisions Anet makes, but mostly because they display flawed reasoning the way Spring Break girls display various body parts: casually and without regard for consequences.

#5 Daesu

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 11:05 PM

View PostCaptain Bulldozer, on 04 September 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

We may have to disagree on the meaning of the word "minimal".  I never found the level of grind needed to maximize the effectiveness of the Kurzick/Luxon skills to be anything but ridiculous, even after they lessened it to rank 8 (or whatever it was).

Actually you only need rank 6 to get them to max level but even at lower ranks there isn't much of a difference in power.  For example, "Save Yourselves!", which is a popular warrior shout, has a max length of 6s but you can already get 5s at rank 2!

Quote

I do agree though, the the way exotics are treated is extremely bad.  The exotic armor that can be obtained without serious grind is only temple armor and has quite limited stats.  The exotic weapon rewards without some serious magic find are few and far between, and completing lvl 80 zones rewards you lvl 76-78 exotics.  

I agree but at least they are buy-able at the TP for a reasonable price, and craft-able through ingredients that are also buy-able from the TP.  Ascended, however, isn't, so they are far worse.

Quote

Now, as far as hard-core players vs casuals for grouping, well that, I'm afraid is always going to be a problem in any game.  We saw rank/title/build discrimination in GW1 quite a bit for certain things, and we have stuff like discrimination in Fractals/PvP now.  As long as there are min/maxers, there will be people who don't want non-min/maxers in their group.  That's a human problem more than anything to do with GW2 I'd say.

With the reduction in required rank to get to max performance level for pve skills, GW1 has very little title discrimination now, at least in PvE.  I know that ANet went back and forth on this and learnt from their mistakes in GW1.  However, as of today, they should know how gear discrimination can work against effective partying in a MMO.

Edited by Daesu, 04 September 2013 - 11:06 PM.


#6 Ad_Extirpanda

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 11:10 PM

I'm with Captain on this one. Gw2 isn't that grindy, though the updates do show a pattern between both sides. Sometimes adding grindy stuff (ascended gear) and others, just helping out people the easy way (like money flowing out of everywhere with better dungeon rewards, dailies, champoins,etc).

But coming back to the OP, ascended items aren't even useful. Hell, you can do any content with green, rare or even exotics if you insist on those. Of course, no one forces you to grind for max stats gear, but if Anet explicitly say there is "no grind for max stats, only for cosmetics", well I have no clue what they were thinking about with ascended.

And the model of GW1 was infinitely better. Max stats is easy to get and if you want a shiny armor, you just had to pay more.

#7 Daesu

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 11:18 PM

View PostAd_Extirpanda, on 04 September 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

I'm with Captain on this one. Gw2 isn't that grindy, though the updates do show a pattern between both sides. Sometimes adding grindy stuff (ascended gear) and others, just helping out people the easy way (like money flowing out of everywhere with better dungeon rewards, dailies, champoins,etc).

But coming back to the OP, ascended items aren't even useful. Hell, you can do any content with green, rare or even exotics if you insist on those. Of course, no one forces you to grind for max stats gear, but if Anet explicitly say there is "no grind for max stats, only for cosmetics", well I have no clue what they were thinking about with ascended.

And the model of GW1 was infinitely better. Max stats is easy to get and if you want a shiny armor, you just had to pay more.

Ever since Fractals and Ascended gear happened, I have been feeling more and more behind in GW2 even though I have been putting a lot more time into GW2 than I did in GW1.

If anyone thinks that Ascended weapon can be easily afforded by a casual player, check out some of these estimates for only getting from crafting level 400 to 500, i.e. not even making an ascended weapon yet.

http://gw2crafts.net/huntsman_400.html
http://gw2crafts.net...ficing_400.html
http://gw2crafts.net...ncraft_400.html

Check out dulfy's site for making an ascended greatsword:

http://dulfy.net/201...coverage-guide/

Note that items like 500 Pile of Bloodstone Dusts, 500 Dragonite Ores, 500 Empyreal Fragments require some level of farming at specific areas of the game.  They can't even be bought since they are account-bound.

Pile of Bloodstone Dusts - Champion loot bags
Dragonite Ore - World Boss Chests
Empyreal Fragment - Dungeons/Fractals

Since I have never liked Fractals, I have also given up hope on ever getting an ascended back item.  Yes, I am still at basic level 1 Fractals even though I was part of the head start crowd.  Ascended items, the way they are implemented, make me sad. :(

No grind for max stats?  Right...

Edited by Daesu, 04 September 2013 - 11:35 PM.


#8 Arewn

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 11:27 PM

Feeling behind for what? You don't need ascended gear for anything other then high level fractals.
Don't think a supposedly casual player is in the much need of extra agony resist for lvl40+ fractals. And even at that, the ascended weapons are only really valuable for their agony resist slot, not for their stats...

Edited by Arewn, 04 September 2013 - 11:27 PM.


#9 Iretha

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 11:29 PM

View PostDaesu, on 04 September 2013 - 11:18 PM, said:

Ever since Fractals and Ascended gear happened, I have been feeling more and more behind in GW2 even though I have been putting a lot more time into GW2 than I did in GW1.

If anyone thinks that Ascended can be easily afforded by a casual player, check out some of these estimates for only getting from crafting level 400 to 500, i.e. not even making an ascended weapon yet.

Why do you feel this way? I don't like fractals either, so I don't do them. Why would a casual player feel the need to get an ascended weapon in the first place? The stat difference between an ascended piece and an exotic piece is not that large, and if you don't like fractals you won't be using the Agony Resistance that makes an Ascended piece sought after in the first place. It's not like they increased the difficulty of all the mobs in the world in such a way that only those with Ascended pieces could effectively participate in dungeons, events, ect. (Even if they somehow did, the stat difference is small enough that it would just take someone with exotics slightly longer to do the same things)

You can run around and do dungeons and events as a level 80 in greens for all that it matters, or even not as a level 80 at all. Please don't feel distressed or 'behind' because you can't put the time into getting Ascended pieces, you don't need them and they don't matter unless you're trying for high level fractals.

Edited by Iretha, 04 September 2013 - 11:30 PM.


#10 Daesu

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 11:37 PM

View PostArewn, on 04 September 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

Feeling behind for what? You don't need ascended gear for anything other then high level fractals.
Don't think a supposedly casual player is in the much need of extra agony resist for lvl40+ fractals. And even at that, the ascended weapons are only really valuable for their agony resist slot, not for their stats...

Don't they have a 10% stat increase also?  

Or are you saying that the ONLY difference between an ascended weapon and its exotic counterpart is the agony resist slot?  I quote Mr Bandit, "You are kidding right?"

Given time, especially after they have released ascended armor later this year, more dungeon groups are going to insist on ascended gear.  Mark my words.

Edited by Daesu, 04 September 2013 - 11:47 PM.


#11 Arewn

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 11:55 PM

View PostDaesu, on 04 September 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

Don't they have a 10% stat increase also?

Given time, especially after they have released ascended armor later this year, more dungeon groups are going to insist on ascended gear.  Mark my words.
I hardly even see groups that require you to have exotics, let alone ascended, so I doubt that will be the case. Heck, I just bought most of my exotics weapons last night. My warrior had a random exotic axe that dropped from fractals, and a GS I bought with CoF token. Prior to that, the rest of my weapons were green (I usually use longbow and sword/shield out of preference even in dungeons, the sword was a yellow with magicfind..). And the only exotic weapon my Mesmer has(even now) is a CoF sword. I bring up warrior and mesmer because they've been my mains since beta and are my most geared characters.
And if that happens, make your own dungeon group. Last night me and friend did 5 of the dungeon story modes (of the 8 dungeons), posted on gw2lfg.com to make a party and waited less the 10 mins for most of them, CM and HotW took about 15 mins. I'm sure you'll be able to find a group just fine if you look, the soon to be added LFG tool will further facilitate this. Don't like pugs? find friends or join a guild, it's an MMO.

Edited by Arewn, 04 September 2013 - 11:57 PM.


#12 Daesu

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:08 AM

View PostArewn, on 04 September 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:


And if that happens, make your own dungeon group. Last night me and friend did 5 of the dungeon story modes (of the 8 dungeons), posted on gw2lfg.com to make a party and waited less the 10 mins for most of them, CM and HotW took about 15 mins. I'm sure you'll be able to find a group just fine if you look, the soon to be added LFG tool will further facilitate this. Don't like pugs? find friends or join a guild, it's an MMO.

Right...and that advice can also be said for ANY MMO doesn't it?  So no more problems with title/gear/build discrimination for ANY MMO.

Just checked, the base average damage for an ascended greatsword goes up by 5% from its exotic counterpart but does not include the stat increase.  There is about a 20% crit damage increase on greatswords and it is pretty noticeable for a 100b warrrior.

Just laying it out for anyone not considering using Ascended weapons and armor in dungeons or WvWvW.

Edited by Daesu, 05 September 2013 - 12:15 AM.


#13 Arewn

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:16 AM

View PostDaesu, on 05 September 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

Right...and that advice can also be said for ANY MMO doesn't it?  So no more problems with title/gear/build discrimination for ANY MMO.
Er.. no, depends entirely on the game and community. Some games have much stricter gear checks, some communities are much more anal about it.
That was quiet the logical leap you took there...

#14 Daesu

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:20 AM

View PostArewn, on 05 September 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:


Er.. no, depends entirely on the game and community. Some games have much stricter gear checks, some communities are much more anal about it.
That was quiet the logical leap you took there...

I am just saying what you said (i.e. partying only with friends), is nothing new and if that is the perfect solution for discrimination in MMOs then discrimination in MMOs would have been resolved a long long time ago.

People would still discriminate based on gear because they don't want to waste time in a difficult dungeon with someone who is not dressed in optimal gear, and I have seen this in GW2 many times despite what you said.

Edited by Daesu, 05 September 2013 - 12:22 AM.


#15 Azure Skye

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:21 AM

View PostArewn, on 04 September 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

I hardly even see groups that require you to have exotics, let alone ascended, so I doubt that will be the case. Heck, I just bought most of my exotics weapons last night. My warrior had a random exotic axe that dropped from fractals, and a GS I bought with CoF token. Prior to that, the rest of my weapons were green (I usually use longbow and sword/shield out of preference even in dungeons, the sword was a yellow with magicfind..). And the only exotic weapon my Mesmer has(even now) is a CoF sword. I bring up warrior and mesmer because they've been my mains since beta and are my most geared characters.
And if that happens, make your own dungeon group. Last night me and friend did 5 of the dungeon story modes (of the 8 dungeons), posted on gw2lfg.com to make a party and waited less the 10 mins for most of them, CM and HotW took about 15 mins. I'm sure you'll be able to find a group just fine if you look, the soon to be added LFG tool will further facilitate this. Don't like pugs? find friends or join a guild, it's an MMO.
I agree the only time,i've seen it was during the whole COF speed runs.

#16 Iretha

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:23 AM

View PostDaesu, on 04 September 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

Don't they have a 10% stat increase also?  

Or are you saying that the ONLY difference between an ascended weapon and its exotic counterpart is the agony resist slot?  I quote Mr Bandit, "You are kidding right?"

Given time, especially after they have released ascended armor later this year, more dungeon groups are going to insist on ascended gear.  Mark my words.

This will not happen, for dungeons you aren't even required to be level 80, let alone have exotics. Here is what the 10% from the ascended weapons will get you (comparing a berserker ascended piece to a exotic ascended piece.)

Difference:
81-90 damage;
+16 power,
+11 precision,
+1% crit damage
[2 offensive infusion slots; totaling to +5 each of a certain stat]

Yes you can look at this and say "It seems so small but when later on down the road comparing a full exotic set to a full ascended set the numbers will be much higher." This is true, but you also need to keep in mind that the difficulty of dungeons or content in general is not going up, people cannot check your gear, or demand that you use exotics, I do dungeons on a regular basis and nobody has ever judged someone and asked if they had full exotics, demanded that they link them, ect. Dungeons were designed in such a way that people in GREENS or even not level 80 could do them effectively if done right.

The only dungeon groups that will ever insist on ascended pieces will be fractals, high end fractals at that. Perhaps a group looking to still farm CoF p1 over, and over, and over again, but as a casual you'll rarely ever be put into these situations, or want to be in them for that matter. Mark MY words, ma'am, normal dungeon runs that aren't being designed to farm them over and over and over again will not expect you to have ascended, don't fret.

#17 Daesu

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:25 AM

View PostAzure Skye, on 05 September 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

I agree the only time,i've seen it was during the whole COF speed runs.

Maybe I was just unlucky but someone asked me to ping my gear even for a TA story mode.  That wasn't the only instance this happened though.

View PostIretha, on 05 September 2013 - 12:23 AM, said:

Yes you can look at this and say "It seems so small but when later on down the road comparing a full exotic set to a full ascended set the numbers will be much higher." This is true, but you also need to keep in mind that the difficulty of dungeons or content in general is not going up, people cannot check your gear, or demand that you use exotics, I do dungeons on a regular basis and nobody has ever judged someone and asked if they had full exotics, demanded that they link them, ect. Dungeons were designed in such a way that people in GREENS or even not level 80 could do them effectively if done right.

In the same way, you can do WvW in green gear but you would still be at a disadvantage.

In any case, people would still insist on the best gear so that they can be more sure that they don't waste their time with you.  It is the same kind of discrimination thinking in every MMO.  It is not about whether you can or cannot complete the dungeon (with the help of the team) in green gear.  It is about the % chance of you screwing up with green gear vs the % chance of you screwing up with ascended gear.  Also keeping in mind how much you would pull the others back for heals and revive time in green gear vs ascended gear.

Edited by Daesu, 05 September 2013 - 12:36 AM.


#18 Azure Skye

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:33 AM

View PostDaesu, on 05 September 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

Maybe I was just unlucky but someone asked me to ping my gear even for a TA story mode.  That wasn't the only instance this happened though.
i guess he had to many failed runs. i would left or pinged it , it wouldnt even matter to me. Its people not know what to do in those dungeons and people blame on not having the stats. its not know what to do or being experience in the dungeon. He should asked if people know how to run the dungeon before, sometimes i do say, im new to some of the dungeon path but other times, i just go along with the flow.

Edited by Azure Skye, 05 September 2013 - 12:37 AM.


#19 Daesu

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:38 AM

View PostAzure Skye, on 05 September 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

i guess he had to many failed runs. i would left or pinged it , it wouldnt even matter to me. Its people not know what to do in those dungeons and people blame on not having the stats. its not know what to do or being experience in the dungeon. He should asked if people know how to run the dungeon before, sometimes i do say, im new to the dungeon but other times, i just go along with the flow.

Actually I am new to most dungeons, lol.  You have to start somewhere right?  And my main is a ranger.  Should a new guy wear green gear or ascended gear for minimal risk?  I can understand their thinking even though I don't like it.

Edited by Daesu, 05 September 2013 - 12:42 AM.


#20 Featherman

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:47 AM

I disagree. If you want a hardcore progression look at the loot design in PoE. The loot system not only appeals to a need to get higher numbers but it allows room for creativity and expression. It's also more randomized and exciting. It takes an indeterminable amount of time to optimize gear, making the process of getting max stats impractical but that's a good thing because it creates equity in loot based on time spent (you'll generally have better loot if you play longer).

GW2 treadmill is carrot dangling in its purest form, which is to say it's self-contained and far too inconsequential to gameplay. This is evident in how stats simply change the speed of numbers rather than define builds or playstyles. There's not much difference between a condition engineer or a pure dps one, since you're spamming grendades regardless. In fact, you'd probably be playing my engineer the same way if stats didn't exist at all.

I'd say GW1 was more hardcore since, unless you're just copy pasting from a guide, it took a good deal of dedication to figure out the best combinations to use for each instance. Even if you do use guides, there's always room to improve either by tweaking your build or improving your playstyle with a pre-existing build.

Edited by Featherman, 05 September 2013 - 01:20 AM.


#21 Daesu

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:01 AM

Stats is what determine your damage so I wouldn't call that inconsequential, especially in dungeons, so I would have to disagree with you.  The emphasis for dungeon builds in GW2 are berserker items with skills designed to increase damage or survivability of your team.  How are they inconsequential?

In GW1, you can just load a template and your build is changed in 1 second.  You don't have to find a trainer first and pay gold.



#22 Featherman

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:05 AM

I think you're a bit too hung up on the idea that stat increases are sufficient to justify your idea of a more hardcore system.

My point is that stats are inconsequential to actual to the actual engagement to the gameplay. The only difference between stats is speed, which is why zerker is so popular, but what's really the difference if you're doing the very same thing but in slightly less time?

I don't see templates are relevant to my arguments about GW1.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not disagreeing that the gear system is harmful, just the usage of the terms.

Edited by Featherman, 05 September 2013 - 01:35 AM.


#23 Mordakai

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:27 AM

While logically I understand that the stat increase from ascended is negligible, I have to say I feel similar to Daesu.  I feel that I am being left behind.  Rational or not, the 2 week temp. content, Ascended gear, Legendaries:  all these combined feel like "casuals are not wanted".

I guess the proof will be if these updates attract more players, or drive more away.

#24 Daesu

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 02:28 AM

View PostFeatherman, on 05 September 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

I think you're a bit too hung up on the idea that stat increases are sufficient to justify your idea of a more hardcore system.

My point is that stats are inconsequential to actual to the actual engagement to the gameplay. The only difference between stats is speed, which is why zerker is so popular, but what's really the difference if you're doing the very same thing but in slightly less time?

I don't see templates are relevant to my arguments about GW1.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not disagreeing that the gear system is harmful, just the usage of the terms.

Speed in killing things is important as the faster you kill them, the less damage the monsters get to deal out to you and your team.  That is why damage builds are so popular in dungeons as it is not just saving time but also mitigating potential damage to your team.

A more hardcore player would of course design the best builds for their dungeon teams.  Otherwise many threads like these would be totally inconsequential (to use your word):

http://www.guildwars...fractals-62513/

http://www.guildwars...guide-for-real/

http://www.guildwars...ew-mesmer-meta/

http://www.guildwars...guardian-build/

Edited by Daesu, 05 September 2013 - 02:34 AM.


#25 Fizzypop

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 02:52 AM

My biggest worry with ascended as with any tier of gear is future content becoming harder and harder to compensate for the higher tier of gear. This will then make it a requirement. Ascended DID make it easier to complete the content. I have two 80s that are geared almost exactly the same with ascended items being the biggest difference between them. The ascended toon had a much easier time soloing the gauntlet bosses than the other. A much easier time with the veterans in the crown pav. solo or duo. Same for the champs for the queen balloons (soloing). I don't want to go back to a game where I have to get X gear just to play the new content. If I wanted that I'd go back to a game that does it well.

Edited by Fizzypop, 05 September 2013 - 02:53 AM.


#26 Mhenlo

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 02:53 AM

View PostMordakai, on 05 September 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

While logically I understand that the stat increase from ascended is negligible, I have to say I feel similar to Daesu.  I feel that I am being left behind.  Rational or not, the 2 week temp. content, Ascended gear, Legendaries:  all these combined feel like "casuals are not wanted".

I guess the proof will be if these updates attract more players, or drive more away.

Exactly. It is part if playing an MMO to desire max gear regardless of whether it is necessary or not. Anyone that bases an argument around not needing ascended gear doesn't understand that the psychological desire outweighs the need and therefore needs to be addressed in the design of the game.

#27 Conkers

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:16 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 05 September 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

I think you're a bit too hung up on the idea that stat increases are sufficient to justify your idea of a more hardcore system.

My point is that stats are inconsequential to actual to the actual engagement to the gameplay. The only difference between stats is speed, which is why zerker is so popular, but what's really the difference if you're doing the very same thing but in slightly less time?

It isn't negligible, nor inconsequential, in particular in regard to WvW. The difference may only be a flat 5%, but due to combat calculations having parts that are multiplicative, the effect is higher than 5%, there was a thread on the official forums where someone worked out someone in a typical berserker build in full ascended gear (with weapons) will now do 13% more damage than someone merely in in exotics.

#28 Feathermoore

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 02:04 PM

View PostMhenlo, on 05 September 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

Exactly. It is part if playing an MMO to desire max gear regardless of whether it is necessary or not. Anyone that bases an argument around not needing ascended gear doesn't understand that the psychological desire outweighs the need and therefore needs to be addressed in the design of the game.

I would argue that this is the mindset of a hardcore player, not a casual player. The difference between a hardcore player and a casual isn't the amount of time they put into the game. I was a hardcore GW1 player and I could only play for a few hours on weekends for a large part of that time. The difference is the mindset, the goals, and the drive. I don't even know what gear I am wearing on my main let alone if it is exotic, rare, or ascended. heck, some of it is probably masterwork. Fractals were put in for hardcore players, the ascended tier was put in for fractals. That doesn't make the game cater to hardcore players.

I hate to say it, but if you are driven to get the highest level of gear "just to have the highest numbers" then you are of the hardcore mindset, even if you don't have the ability to put in hardcore time. Pun not intended. Now, if you say that the game is catering to people who can long on for an hour a day every day? Yes, obviously every game system is tooled to cater to this group of people.

Edited by Feathermoore, 05 September 2013 - 02:05 PM.

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#29 ObscureThreat

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 02:09 PM

GW2 in not hardcore. It just feels that way because a lot of the content is time gated. For Instance, lets look at ascended rings, from FOTM, which you get with 10 pristine relics, of which you can only get one per day. So you can purchase that ring in 10 days. However if pristine relics were not time gated, someone like me who binges on GW2 during the weekends, could conceivably get a ring in 2-3 days ding 3-5 runs of Maw a day. Its the time gated mechanics that make you feel like like its a grind, simply because you have to wait, and for every day you don't log in, the time increases. Its going to feel the same way for ascended weapons, since some of the materials required you can only get once per day. Guild Wars 2 is not more grindy than GW2 or any other mmo out there. It's however the only one that forces you to log in each day to obtain anything in a meaningful amount of time.

#30 Mordakai

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 02:26 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 05 September 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:



I would argue that this is the mindset of a hardcore player, not a casual player. The difference between a hardcore player and a casual isn't the amount of time they put into the game. I was a hardcore GW1 player and I could only play for a few hours on weekends for a large part of that time. The difference is the mindset, the goals, and the drive. I don't even know what gear I am wearing on my main let alone if it is exotic, rare, or ascended. heck, some of it is probably masterwork. Fractals were put in for hardcore players, the ascended tier was put in for fractals. That doesn't make the game cater to hardcore players.

I hate to say it, but if you are driven to get the highest level of gear "just to have the highest numbers" then you are of the hardcore mindset, even if you don't have the ability to put in hardcore time. Pun not intended. Now, if you say that the game is catering to people who can long on for an hour a day every day? Yes, obviously every game system is tooled to cater to this group of people.


Well, not every game is catered to the hour a day philosophy.  Every FTP game, yes.  Most MMOs, yes.  

But GW2 was sold on the promise it would NOT be like other MMOs.  They specifically said:  "If you don't like MMOs, you will love GW2."

I wonder what people coming from other games think of that statement?




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