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It's not grind


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#1 raspberry jam

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:49 PM

I saw something in a thread recently. It was about the living story content, and it went something like this:

Quote

Quote

It wasn't so bad at first, but once you fall behind a bit and the content goes away, it's really hard to give a care about any of it anymore.

Pretty much.
I started with doing all the achievements.
But since X, I'm only trying to get the min amount for the reward chest..

Tired of grinding and I want a month without LS.
So is this actually "grind"? ANet set out to create a grind-free game. And many would argue that they have succeeded. In a youtube video, TotalBiscuit addressed the actual use of the word. According to him, it's only grinding if all there is to do is to go out and kill a lot of enemies. Being told that there are a lot of enemies to kill, and then killing them all, makes it, according to him, not grind anymore. Me, and many with me, disagree, of course. But I will agree that having new content, all the time, is not grind. Even if the actual combat is very similar from enemy to enemy, it's not grind because the content is new.

So why do people get tired of it? We'll come back to that, but first I want to talk a bit about why ANet is doing this. Of course, whenever new content is introduced into an MMO, people log on and play it. In subscription-based MMOs, there's always a lot of resubs right after a major content patch. ANet has personal experience from GW1, where various content additions, festivals, etc would make player numbers explode (GW1 vets may recall 200+ districts in Lion's Arch, and so on).
Now combine that with the realization that what a successful MMO needs more than anything else is community. When lots of players are kept busy, when lots of players are in the game actively playing it, community will emerge on its own.

The classical recipe for this is to create some sort of leveling treadmill. It doesn't need to be based on levels: it can be based on gear, like it is in World of Warcraft. When a sufficient number of players have top gear, Blizzard releases new content, which is not important, and new gear, which is important. But this gives rise to grind, and that's what ANet promised to not have.
Instead, ANet releases content all the time. It's a blitheringly stupid idea, even more so because I myself suggested it, at great length, in many posts on various fan forums. Or, well, actually, the idea itself isn't stupid. The execution of it, however, is. Because people do get tired of it. Not of the actual new content, no. But of the constant releases.

So, why do people get tired of it? Well, the new content is there for only a short while. Then it's removed. And the content has a story element, of a sorts, and GW2 is at least partially a story-bound game. I think a lot of people get tired because they feel stressed out. Not actually stressed over the constant stream of releases, but of the fact that if they don't keep up, they'll never get the chance to see it again. It's gone, forever, you can never go back, not even by creating a new character. As if this was not enough, various achievements, which are kept in high esteem because the non-grind aspect of the game makes it nearly impossibly to distinguish yourself except through these achievements, keep track of everything you have done - and therefore also everything you have missed out on.

I am sorry for having partially caused this. Basically, ANet is running the game at a fever pitch all the time. It is not healthy for the game, and it leads to that people get tired of it. It's not grind. It's worse.

Edited by raspberry jam, 05 September 2013 - 12:50 PM.


#2 Kuskah

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 02:31 PM

To me, grinding is having to kill thousands upon thousands of monsters to level up/get a drop.

I agree though, I too would prefer permanent content to be done on my own terms rather than new stuff coming in and old stuff being removed every 2 weeks. Also, the consequences of the story are too insignificant for me to care. If someone started playing now, they wouldn't know there ever was some dredge+flame legion alliance, or that Southsun hasn't been there since the beginning of the game, that Queen had some kind of Jubilee or that there's a Sylvari named Scarlet somewhere in the mix. These may be mentioned in some ambient conversations but there's no 100% guarantee I'd find those even if I was specifically looking for them.

#3 Feathermoore

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 02:58 PM

First off, as a moderator, great post.

On to "poster mode." While I feel this is true, does the temporary nature of the content cause this all on its own? For example, I feel that people would still get tired of the updates if they were persistent. The time schedule that Anet is on is rather breakneck for anyone who doesn't play close to daily. This accentuates the "gotta get it done" effect just as much as it being temporary since once the next bit of content comes out, the majority of the playerbase will move on to the new content, even if the old stuff is there.

I think Anet still needs to work on their pacing. F&F was too slow, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. The new pace of updates is too fast though, especially when they don't really always follow in a step pattern.

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#4 MazingerZ

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:02 PM

We've had this conversation before...

All games have a grind to a certain extent.

It ultimately comes down to how well that grind is hidden.

In the case of this game, it's not.  You may not have to kill thousands of monsters to get these account-bound crafting materials, but its like trying to tap a leaking pipe for enough water to brew a pot of coffee.

I may have all the shit in the world around me to distract me while that coffee pot fills itself, but since I have to both 1) make sure I'm personally collecting that one drop of water a day for my pot of coffee, and 2) eventually the crap around to distract me is going to be insufficient in its purpose and I will realize that I really want my goddamned cup of coffee.

Particularly every time I come into the room to get my drop of water, the things around me have changed and something that might have had some mileage left for me has been replaced with something I find less fun.

It's just not fun in that regard.

Edited by MazingerZ, 05 September 2013 - 03:05 PM.

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#5 Zhaitan

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:11 PM

IMHO, anything that I "love" to do, however mind numbingly boring, is not a "grind" to me. Anything that I'd not be doing otherwise but, I will "have" to do to "keep" up is a "grind" to me.

Maybe what ANET can do is to retain the temp content for 6 weeks before shutting it off. That means 3 Living Story episodes will be playable at a given time. If the living stories were connected chronologically in a fashion that would impact the  world, I'd have said release every month but, the quality of story-telling, value of playable content, and overall impact to the world makes me think 2 weeks is a decent pace. Also, this prompts some people to spend more money on their Gem Store, like every two weeks. Shove mediocre content, celebrate mediocrity and punish those who do not get with the program. I think, it is working well for them.

#6 raspberry jam

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:15 PM

I love South Park. But yeah, there is a (very fine) difference between killing a lot of stuff to get some shiny, and kill a lot of stuff because they are in the way when you are trying to get the shiny.

View PostFeathermoore, on 05 September 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

While I feel this is true, does the temporary nature of the content cause this all on its own? For example, I feel that people would still get tired of the updates if they were persistent. The time schedule that Anet is on is rather breakneck for anyone who doesn't play close to daily. This accentuates the "gotta get it done" effect just as much as it being temporary since once the next bit of content comes out, the majority of the playerbase will move on to the new content, even if the old stuff is there.
Well, sure, that the playerbase will move on is one thing. And it is something that ANet for the most part never had to deal with in GW1, because (most) content was still playable even if you were the only one interested in it. For "true" MMOs like GW2, that is not true. Still, yeah, I think that the temporary nature of the content does a lot. It's not, I think, that you actually never get to play it because there's no one to play with. Because that can be solved and if not, then at least the content is still there. I think it's more of a feeling that you really did miss out on something and now it's gone forever, you can't even try to play it. A feeling of being left behind, of having holes in the history so to speak. Many MMO players are avid completionists.

#7 Rabbit

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:23 PM

With new LS stuff every second week I feel like I HAVE to play, I don't play because I WANT to play. Which caused a lot of stress, which then lead to me stop playing. With permanent content I can go in the game and play when I want to in a much more relaxed way.
I feel like if I miss a part of the LS or that I wont have time to finish it, I have no interest in it at all. I haven't played any of the LS stuff since Flame and Frost. I'm sad that I'm missing out on content, but right now I'd rather do other stuff IRL. Like I said before, I want to play when I WANT to play, not when I HAVE to play.

#8 raspberry jam

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:28 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 05 September 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

I may have all the shit in the world around me to distract me while that coffee pot fills itself, but since I have to both 1) make sure I'm personally collecting that one drop of water a day for my pot of coffee, and 2) eventually the crap around to distract me is going to be insufficient in its purpose and I will realize that I really want my goddamned cup of coffee.

Particularly every time I come into the room to get my drop of water, the things around me have changed and something that might have had some mileage left for me has been replaced with something I find less fun.

It's just not fun in that regard.
You are addressing time gating... Yes, very true, time gating interacts with the removal of content to make something that is even more constricted. Now to get the shiny loot or achievement or whatever, you can't just log in on the weekend and play for 18 hours straight. You have to log in every day to take the little step that you are allowed to take that day. If you like the game enough to play more than that, you can choose between playing fun content that doesn't reward you, or rewarding (in terms of loot) content that you don't really want to play, at least not right now.

From a business perspective, time gating makes perfect sense. From a make-a-good-game perspective, time gating is a stupid idea, especially when coupled with these two-week updates.

And yeah, I was going to say something about that too, but I didn't. Having permanent content means that the players who just want their goddamned cup of coffee can, in the relative peace and quiet of various wikis, work out a plan to farm good juicy content that will yield the industrial-grade espresso that they crave.
Allowing grind while not designing the game around it, is a good thing. It's why people loved GW1. Disallowing grind while basing the entire game on it, is just daft.

#9 Hex65000

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:37 PM

I wont say grind. I have another adjective, "Fatigue".

I'm looking at SAB as a much needed break from doing anything other than whatever random activity I decide to do that day. I'm still grappling with the new economy, magic find, and crafting changes.

Coupled with that I really did not enjoy the farming-zerg of the invasions and what I call the 'Trivial Pursuit Thunderdome'. The loot was good, but the rewards were not so great to me. It was the first time in my experience playing GW2 that I wanted to punch my collective server in the face.

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#10 Featherman

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:52 PM

I think it's important to note that there's no game that doesn't have the kind of repetition that could be conflated with grind, but good games often break monotony by delivering new mechanics and problems to challenge the player to think differently as the games progress. Maybe this is something Blizzard does well, in a sense. WoW's gear treadmill does force players to grind, there's no argument about that, but gear tiers are often coupled with demanding content like Raids. Each time a new tier of gear is released players have to find the right stat combinations needed to tackle the new raids they come with.

I think another good example would be the final fantasy series where players are given new skills and abilities to use every now and then.

As for GW2, the change in scenery offered by the LS isn't enough to keep me interested. I can put up with monotony, but aside from being new and frequent there's not much to the LS.

Edited by Featherman, 05 September 2013 - 04:03 PM.


#11 Mordakai

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 04:05 PM

View PostHex65000, on 05 September 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

I wont say grind. I have another adjective, "Fatigue".

I'm looking at SAB as a much needed break from doing anything other than whatever random activity I decide to do that day. I'm still grappling with the new economy, magic find, and crafting changes.

Coupled with that I really did not enjoy the farming-zerg of the invasions and what I call the 'Trivial Pursuit Thunderdome'. The loot was good, but the rewards were not so great to me. It was the first time in my experience playing GW2 that I wanted to punch my collective server in the face.

Hex.
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I was thinking about this last night:  why do I dislike the Back to School update so much, since it really doesn't effect me.

I think it's because they (purposely?) divided the player base:  half of my guild is collecting mats for their weapons, the other half is completing SAB.

I would have liked the content to actually help in getting the mats we need...  I feel really dumb opening all my loot chests and salvaging BEFORE the update.

That said, maybe the next update they will increase drops of ascended stuff, and maybe the new Tequatl Rising update will be awesome...

#12 pumpkin pie

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 04:08 PM

Here's a totally different point of view

I feel like I have to complete GW1 because the contents are there. Still planning to do it, because it is never going to go away. When I was playing GW1 if i do not do X task, there is nothing else I can do to get what I  want, in order to get item X, i need to run Dungeon A. And starts the repetitive tasks which I still have not complete.

Whereas Living Story is a different thing all together, when its gone I  don't have to worry about it anymore, I can do OTHER different and new living story to get what I want (ie Legendary weapons)  
on top of that, Living Story, makes the dailies much easier, faster and more fun to complete, plus it has way more bling bling to show off afterwards.

But not for SAB, i think, is a major grind fest. I ran that dungeon, got myself some philosopher's stones and what do you know they are souldbound to a character that I no longer like, was a mule, whom I deleted. Now i am never returning to that blocky place. See, repeated task = boring

Edited by Khalija, 09 September 2013 - 03:29 PM.
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#13 Dahk

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 04:21 PM

View PostFeathermoore, on 05 September 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

I think Anet still needs to work on their pacing. F&F was too slow, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. The new pace of updates is too fast though, especially when they don't really always follow in a step pattern.

I don't think that it's a problem of pacing too fast or too slow.  Instead, I think that it's inherently problematic to have pace controlled so strictly by constant mini-expansions.  Not only is this problematic in that it controls how frequently and consistently you NEED to log in to keep on track with goals, but it also tends to force the players hand on WHAT they log in to do.

Log in and feel like messing around on a low level alt with your buddy?  No, you better jump on that living content before it's gone!  Or, you better make sure you do the time gated crafting/content so that you can have it unlocked later.

ANet has taken a new approach to a lot of things and this has been very successful in a lot of ways.  Dailies in this game, for example, are awesome!  They give you motivation to log on and play regularly, but do so in a way that allows you keep playing the content you like.  However, that same flexibility needs to be built into the way they are doing living story and other new content.

#14 lmaonade

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 05:04 PM

it's all perspective though, I think players are starting to feel the effects of homogeneous content, and that a majority of LS updates are just hunt the achievements checklist wars 2, they feel like they're prompted to do the same things over and over again with a different backdrop, thus "grind"

but I agree, it's worse than grind

#15 raspberry jam

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 05:38 PM

View PostHex65000, on 05 September 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

I wont say grind. I have another adjective, "Fatigue".
Yep. Keeping something cranked up to max all the time just wears it out.

View PostFeatherman, on 05 September 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

As for GW2, the change in scenery offered by the LS isn't enough to keep me interested. I can put up with monotony, but aside from being new and frequent there's not much to the LS.
You do have a point. The themes and storyline of GW2's living story content varies, but the gameplay does usually not. That, however, has more to do with the system itself: how traits, skills and gear affects gameplay. Because there isn't much room to create a meaningful change: most damage output works the same, most defensive measures (of many kinds) work basically the same, etc. In GW2 you will (almost) never get to the kind of situation you had in GW1, where you could use skills to create something that would beat a given chunk of content.

Example (for those who played GW1): B/P. 5-man SF. 5-man FoW. Not to mention the approximately 55 trillion PvP builds.

View Postpumpkin pie, on 05 September 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

Here's a totally different point of view

I feel like I have to complete GW1 because the contents are there. Still planning to do it, because it is never going to go away. When I was playing GW1 if i do not do X task, there is nothing else I can do to get what I  want, in order to get item X, i need to run Dungeon A. And starts the repetitive tasks which I still have not complete.

Whereas Living Story is a different thing all together, when its gone I  don't have to worry about it anymore, I can do OTHER different and new living story to get what I want (ie Legendary weapons)  
on top of that, Living Story, makes the dailies much easier, faster and more fun to complete, plus it has way more bling bling to show off afterwards.

But not for SAB, i think, is a major grind fest. I ran that dungeon, got myself some philosopher's stones and what do you know they are souldbound to a character that I no longer like, was a mule, whom I deleted. Now i am never returning to that blocky place. See, repeated task = boring
It is a different view, and I think it is the view that ANet was hoping for when they started up the LS experiment. That people would just let it disappear and not care about it. How wrong they were... What's the point of buying a game if you don't care about it? During the campaign, the storyline is always there and is always important. Now they keep putting out stories and expect people to not care...? Nah, doesn't work. Well, if what you want is a legendary, then it works, of course.

Uh I didn't even know that thing about stones being soulbound. That's stupid.

#16 pumpkin pie

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 06:09 PM

Actually, I do care about the story, what I don't care is the achievement and title or even some of the rewards, I am so not going to do any of the SAB at all.

I can't wait to see if Mai Trin will escape one day.  she's still in the holding! Or what Scarlet will do next, maybe she will send the aetherblade to brake Mai Trin out of jail ... who knows, its all pretty interesting.

The story is important, weather I am there (my character) to save Tyria is beside the point, it is a Living Story, yes i still hate one time event like when the mad king visited, which I've not been able to be present, all of them, but it is a living world so... can't complain, but i hope they think of something that could let us recap . like that sky pirates model thing (forgot the name)

Yeap, soul bound a crafting item is pretty stupid.

#17 ChuyDog08

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 07:00 PM

I think the term grind is a subjective word.  It means different things to different people.  I agree with what  Raspberry Jam is saying about the problems with the temporary releases.  However, I think some players (including me) beleive that the LS can be a grind.  Several of the patches I have been thrilled with, but a few I have not.  The changes and rerelease to SAB feels like a grind.  I have chosen not to participate in this one.   I am glad to go back to the daily grind that I enjoyed doing before the every 2 week thing started.

I would go into why I feel it is a grind, but I think my side of the argument has been discussed to death.  Also, I respect the other side of the argument too because it is just a personal opinion.  We all play games differently and will always have different points of view on this topic.  

My main gripe with the temporary content is that it is gone.  There were some cool areas and events.  I would like to go back with my Alts and experiance it again with them, but I can't.  To be honest, I do not know why they let you have alts to begin with, they are killing them with every patch release.  Soon, we will be able to carry every weapon type.  Why not give us every skill.  Then we just have to choose the race and play however we want.

Edited by Archaes, 05 September 2013 - 11:26 PM.
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#18 raspberry jam

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 07:48 PM

I am still in shock about that they did not make the things account bound instead of soulbound if they had to prevent trading.

View PostChuyDog08, on 05 September 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

My main gripe with the temporary content is that it is gone.  There were some cool areas and events.  I would like to go back with my Alts and experiance it again with them, but I can't.  To be honest, I do not know why they let you have alts to begin with, they are killing them with every patch release.  Soon, we will be able to carry every weapon type.  Why not give us every skill.  Then we just have to choose the race and play however we want.
That is a problem too, with the alts I mean, I didn't think of that one.

Letting each character do pretty much everything is something I suggested too. That way, you'd just need one guy, and he could be elementalist, warrior, ranger, necromancer or whatever else you feel like being at the moment. Maybe with a restriction to have to return to a trainer to change profession (for free). It would be cool.

Edited by raspberry jam, 05 September 2013 - 07:50 PM.


#19 rukh

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 09:30 PM

The Living Story is trying to keep up with the pace of hardcore gamers (by hardcore, I mean players who burn through new content/achievements very quickly).  However, it is doing this with things that less serious and irregular players may still value highly, such as story progression, instances, dungeons, cutscenes - all of which will go away forever if they miss a couple weeks.  Then there are compulsive players whose world will end if they miss an achievement, regardless of how often they can intake new content.

Suggestions have been made to allow players to retroactively experience story content and instances.  Unfortunately I don't think there is any compromise that will allow players to make up achievements since many of those achievements depend on the open world being in a specific state.

#20 Doctor Overlord

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 09:51 PM

I've seen other posts suggesting slowing down the pace on the official forums.   I have to agree with the sentiment but at the same time it struck me was of those ironic 'Be careful what you wish for' moments.

MMO players have been constantly begged for a 'living' world to play in, heck I always thought the idea was appealing as long as the gameplay was also fun. But did we really consider that "living" must also mean "constantly changing"?  That means unless you're constantly online you will miss something. As MMOs try to emulate the living world that means we would see the video game equivalent of what happens in the real world, beautiful orchards being bulldozed, favorite restaurants closing down and special events getting missed as the old is replaced by the new.

There are tricks one can do with video games, certainly, but maybe missing content is an unavoidable price for a changing, online world. If we really want an MMO that changes, I wonder do we really have a right to demand that the all the content also be kept available as if we were playing a static game?

View PostFeathermoore, on 05 September 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

I think Anet still needs to work on their pacing. F&F was too slow, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. The new pace of updates is too fast though, especially when they don't really always follow in a step pattern.
That is a good observation.   F&F was too slow of a pace, now they seem to have swung too far in the other direction.   But now that they know they can do it at such a pace, it should be easier to slow down and find a balance.

I wonder if perhaps storyline updates could work at a two week pace, like a TV show that airs new episodes.  As long as the updates were accessible to everyone and free of the reward achievements. Achievements are where I think some people are getting particularly annoyed about missing them.

It would mean storyline updates would not have major invasions and such, but perhaps it could be a way to engage the community by having people log in to see the latest storyline twist.   But then there would be requests for some kind of 'rerun' feature that would allow storyline scenes/missions to be replayed so people who miss them could catch up.   And perhaps interest in the storyline is not enough to warrant the effort.

All in all, it really is humorous that ArenaNet is so proud about how they have build themselves up put out content so fast only to now hear the community asking them to slow down. How MMO developers maintain their sanity is a mystery.

Edited by Doctor Overlord, 05 September 2013 - 09:53 PM.


#21 Shizu

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:02 PM

By grind, I mean something like the miragent set in Aion. Or training some skills in ultima online.
Grind-free endgame? DAoC, before trial of atlantis. Granted, the leveling itself was very long by today's standard. But a charancer, once leveled and equipped with a crafted set, was set and done, never to farm or grind anything again to 'progress' in the game.
EVE has its own unique model. Set the skill training and do literally whatever you want while your character trains itself in the background.

Here? It's a mess. They try to please every single category of gamers.
Guild Wars 2: Hey, we want casual players to be competitive with the basement nerds. But we also want the hardcore gamers to have some long-term project. We also want said long-term projects to be at the same time rewarding but not unbalanced.
We want to give the freedom to log in everyday or once a month, but we also want to reward daily activities with a whole bunch of time-gated garbage. We also for some reason want to punish someone who dares to go on vacation or play something else for a month, by forever locking him out from part of the content.

Really. This game has no identity. GW2 wants to be everything and please everyone at the same time, failing miserably at it. While going through this nonsensical project, they are completely neglecting the other major parts of the game, wich attracted a huge share of their playerbase in the first place. Structured pvp and WvW. Completely dead. Remember the bullshit about making it an e-sport? Or reviving a truely epic persistent pvp format?
No, scrap it. Better focus on +1 damage bullshit every X months or 'pop 700 balloons' to get your achievement n. 10567.

#22 StormDragonZ

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:32 PM

Two words:

Optional Grind.

#23 Swoopeh

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:48 PM

I was hoping for more meaningful content when in july(?) they announced that they heard player's issues with temp content and the disparity in LS updates and I have to say I'm a bit disappointed by the last two updates. Zephyr Sanctum was great imho because it actually changed things by giving you the new skills; it felt fresh and new and with the rumours about Glint and the Crystal Desert that really got me excited. Then Instead of expanding on that we got another bint we never heard of before who's trying to take over the world.

I did enjoy the farming as it made me 200g in a week and lots of t6 mats which has helped me a ways to getting a legendary, but I'd rather have had something actually interesting. They have a lot of potential with GW lore, I don't really get why they're not trying to focus their efforts to make a sweeping story arc focused on, for example, the Glint part.

Still, there are a few good things coming, I'm just hoping for a storyline more worthy of our time before the end of the year.

#24 DeConstruct

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:55 PM

I see grind as doing stuff routinely that doesn't have any value in itself intrinsically or extrinsically, but must be done in order to serve a greater good. The more meaningless activities required to achieve the greater good, the worse a grind it is.

What makes an activity meaningless? Well, for example when its actual game value is very low compared to the time investment. Or when it's entirely repetitive and loses its novelty/fun value. Or when it is of a temporary nature so it actually diminishes the value of your time (i.e. you play on their schedule, not yours.). I dont care for the definition you gave. I'm more for the broader definition. Like people call repetitive daily activities such as work, cleaning etc. "the grind". Activity by activity they hold no value, but bit by bit they help you sustain yourself.

How does this apply to the new story content? Well quite simple. The players are perceptive. They can see when the same material is repackaged and handed to them again. And it is contrary to the philosophy GW2 shipped with. GW2 offered casual time investments with significant progress. Eliminated repetition by making alternative actions count towards the same goals. And right up to dungeon/cultural skins, legendaries and ascended gear, everything significant was "within reach". Not only does this new metagame require dreary time investments, the rewards in themselves are wholey insignificant. But players feel obligated to complete said "content", because it is all they get, and they have to do it while it lasts.

#25 Redhawk2007

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 02:58 AM

I agree with the idea that "kill 10 demons" is grind while "kill ten demons while rescuing the princess" isn't. For example I find doing the monthly where you have to kill about 100 WvW invaders and 100 veterans to be completely ungrindy, as these achievements occur automatically while I'm doing WvW and I don't have to make a special effort to do them, They would be a hideous grind for people who hate WvW, however.

Daily achievements like the "Aquatic slayer," where you have to get 25 underwater kills or the "Krytan Killer" where you have to kill 40 mobs in Kryta are a tedious PITA requiring a special effort to do.

But I am getting off topic here and to get back to the issue at hand I find many aspects of the Living story to be extremely grindy in that they require special effort and are not just incidental to doing the various achievements. The one in Dragon bash where you had to kill 300 Holographic minions that had a horrible respawn mechanism was insanely grindy and tedious, as was the destroy 150 pinata thing. Stuff like that just isn't fun and should be regarded as anti-content.

The recent invasion achievement where you had to stop 13 different invasions on 13 different maps was also a frustrating grindfest, as you had to sit around waiting every hour for the "right" invasion to occur and then spend 45 minutes doing that invasion to get the achievement. To top it off, the thing has been buggy and many people who did all the zones didn't get the achievement. Anet is wonderful at taking things that could be fun for a short while, like doing the invasions, and turning them into a relentless and frustrating chore. I also found the whole run around to the balloon towers thing to be pretty tedious and grindy.

#26 raspberry jam

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:36 AM

View PostStormDragonZ, on 05 September 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

Two words: Optional Grind.
All grind is optional. There is no mandatory grind in any game whatsoever. If you create a new human character in a "grindy" game like World of Warcraft, there is nothing to say you need to even earn a single level. You can play the character for 3000 hours if you want, and spend the entire time in Northshire Valley. In any game ever, you only ever need to grind if you want the rewards.

#27 lmaonade

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 03:45 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 05 September 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

Letting each character do pretty much everything is something I suggested too. That way, you'd just need one guy, and he could be elementalist, warrior, ranger, necromancer or whatever else you feel like being at the moment. Maybe with a restriction to have to return to a trainer to change profession (for free). It would be cool.

That reminds me of Final Fantasy 11's job system, where you can switch classes (and sub-classes, speaking of which they should bring it back, it was a balance nightmare but it was fun) in your home instance, so basically one character could be anything, and alts were mainly used for storage and inventory space (as they are sometimes used in GW2 also)

Or hell, there's a little known asian MMO Eden Eternal that lets people change classes whenever they are out of combat.

Both of those ideas could be easily adapted into GW2 imo, since it is a game of convenience

#28 beadnbutter32

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:36 AM

At first I thought Anets new stuff every 2 weeks was interesting and a nice change, but after 6 or more months of it, 99% of what they call content is stuff I could care less about.

They seem to have totally given up on new regions to explore which is always a main interest of mine in MMO's.  I got world completion long ago, and I don't consider figuring out rat race mazes in temporary gimmicky dungeons exploring.

I stressed for a while trying to keep up with all the achievement points, but lately, I have given up entirely on that.  They are just meaningless checklists with cheesy rewards.  Minis?  I never like gold stars in grade school, I and I don't want them in an MMO.

I no longer see this game as an MMO.  Its a MMO themed GUI/lobby for a bunch of ever changing minigames for genres I never liked to begin with. Jumping Puzzles, no thanks, 8-bit console game copies, no, procedurally generated instances with a geometric progression of difficulty, no thanks.

So they completely ignore exploration now and ignore the one other area I really like WvW.

I think the big shoe to drop as to this games continuance is whether the Asian market takes off or not. They have been pretty tight lipped about that recently.

#29 Impmon

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:41 AM

People these days don't know what grind means.  Try going back to the 90s & play Everquest the original.  

1.  Exp loss upon death
2.  Having to run back from where you were bound to loot your corpse which might be on the other side of the world
3.  Racial & Class hidden exp penalties
4.  Hell levels & losing levels upon death
5.  No content originally
6.  Camping for weeks for a rare spawning npc that dropped a quest item rarely

#30 Mhenlo

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Posted 06 September 2013 - 11:47 AM

View PostImpmon, on 06 September 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

People these days don't know what grind means.  Try going back to the 90s & play Everquest the original.  

1.  Exp loss upon death
2.  Having to run back from where you were bound to loot your corpse which might be on the other side of the world
3.  Racial & Class hidden exp penalties
4.  Hell levels & losing levels upon death
5.  No content originally
6.  Camping for weeks for a rare spawning npc that dropped a quest item rarely

None of those things seem especially grindy to me. And, to be fair, comparing grind between doesn't seem like a good way to discuss grind in a specific game.
Just because something doesn't suck as much as something else doesn't preclude it from sucking in general.




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