Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
* - - - - 1 votes

SAB Tribulation mode: Cheap or Challenging?


  • Please log in to reply
38 replies to this topic

#1 Kuskah

Kuskah

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 297 posts

Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:18 PM

In most difficult games / modes, there's a fine line between what's challenging/difficult and what's simply cheap. To me, challenging means tricky, hard to master yet straightforward. Cheap would be a giant boulder dropping on your head with no warning/indication of it happening.

To be honest, I can't be bothered to play SAB myself, yet I've watched several videos of Tribulation mode and there were moments when I felt like you simply need to learn stuff by dying, rather than observation etc.

As I haven't played it enough myself though, I'd like to hear your opinions on this one.

#2 MazingerZ

MazingerZ

    Golem Rider

  • Curse Premium
  • Curse Premium
  • 2274 posts
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Guild Tag:[CYRL]
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:26 PM

Just by the Infinite Coin with gems, then you can practice as much as you want for as long as SAB is around.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#3 Macha

Macha

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 103 posts
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[SB]
  • Server:Gandara

Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:33 PM

Tribulation mode feels like a mid way between a Dark Souls gaming style and a cheap, yet effective, way to "force" people to buy 600 gems for the Infinite Continue Coin.

#4 Azure Skye

Azure Skye

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2099 posts
  • Location:(づ。*◕__◕。)づ・。*。✧・゜゜・。✧・。*。✧ Magic!
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[CUTE]
  • Server:Dragonbrand

Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:46 PM

View PostMacha, on 09 September 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

Tribulation mode feels like a mid way between a Dark Souls gaming style and a cheap, yet effective, way to "force" people to buy 600 gems for the Infinite Continue Coin.
Its purely optional, you don't need to spend it or buy the infinite coin and there is hardly any achievement points for expect Connoisseur of Pain and Glutton for Punishment. im not buy it or playing tribulation mode either. I've seen videos of tribulation for playing thru that. You're voting with your money and nothing else. The people that "need" to do this are achievement hunters and nothing else. There isnt any skin for finishing the achievement track either.

ill use Josh Foremen quote on this.

Quote

As to the Infinite Continue Coin I’ll repeat what I said several pages back. I think it’s a great item because it expands the number of people who can experience SAB. There’s probably a good-sized portion of players who don’t want to play it like a real stand-alone old-school game where you have to really learn the levels, find the secrets, earn the resources to get the power-ups etc. In that way it’s like a Game Genie. It also gives people who are really into SAB a chance to vote with their money and support future development.
   We decided to do Tribulation Mode in the platform hell style back before we launched the first SAB. Before the idea of an ICC was ever thought up. It matches our personality and humor. We knew there would be people who were really really good at SAB and would wrack up huge numbers of extra lives, and thought Trib Mode would be a great way to spend them.
http://forum-en.guil.../19#post2785093

Edited by Azure Skye, 09 September 2013 - 05:51 PM.


#5 Featherman

Featherman

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1028 posts
  • Location:Frolicking in Kalos

Posted 09 September 2013 - 05:49 PM

It's a different type of challenge. In Super Meat Boy the obstacles are 100% visible and telegraphed and the challenge lie in the timing of jumps. In IWTBTG the goal is obvious and visible but the challenge was in incredibly precise timing of execution, SAB is a memory challenge due to the 100% invisible trap panels, and you don't really have a chance at dodging them when they trigger.

That said, I dislike SAB TB tremendously because the instagibs feel cheap. At least in Dark Souls you had a perfectly fair chance to react when you're sidelined by those Dark knights that 2-shot you, and you're given a very visible warning as player killer phantoms invade your realm.

Another thing is the lack of polish makes challenges feel clunky. The engine and hit recognition were never suited for SAB's type of gameplay, since platforming and avoiding obstacles require a good deal of precision. This wasn't a huge problem in the first iteration of SAB (although it was noticible), but it's become is far bigger issue because ANet upped the challenge. An example of how this harms gameplay is if your character visibly avoids the thwomp traps they'll still get hit because their vulnerability box extends into the Thwomp's hitbox.

People say that the infinite coin is optional, but given the issues I described above it's pretty much a requirement if you value your sanity.

Edited by Featherman, 09 September 2013 - 09:39 PM.


#6 Azure Skye

Azure Skye

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2099 posts
  • Location:(づ。*◕__◕。)づ・。*。✧・゜゜・。✧・。*。✧ Magic!
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[CUTE]
  • Server:Dragonbrand

Posted 09 September 2013 - 06:03 PM

SAB is grinding and hell mode (pulling your hair out, throwing your key board and wanting get that anger out of you) playing to play to get baubles to play tribulation mode. Its nothing to homage to the old style of games like Battletoads Tubro tunnel and Ninja Gaiden? Its nothing but a memory game.




Edited by Azure Skye, 09 September 2013 - 06:05 PM.


#7 Featherman

Featherman

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1028 posts
  • Location:Frolicking in Kalos

Posted 09 September 2013 - 06:05 PM

You can see the obstacles in Battle Toads and Contra, and avoid them as they appear. It's just difficult to do so.

Edited by Featherman, 09 September 2013 - 06:06 PM.


#8 Azure Skye

Azure Skye

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2099 posts
  • Location:(づ。*◕__◕。)づ・。*。✧・゜゜・。✧・。*。✧ Magic!
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[CUTE]
  • Server:Dragonbrand

Posted 09 September 2013 - 06:09 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 09 September 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

You can see the obstacles in Battle Toads and Contra, and avoid them as they appear. It's just difficult to do so.
Its a memory game and knowing where everything else is, knowing where everything else in SAB and doing it quickly.

#9 Fantasy Trope

Fantasy Trope

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 136 posts
  • Location:Sto-vo-kor
  • Profession:Elementalist
  • Guild Tag:[EZ]
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 09 September 2013 - 06:22 PM

So many hours of my childhood wasted trying to beat Turbo Tunnel.  That game made me so angry.  Hahahaha...

If SAB is like that, then, no.  I pass!

#10 Macha

Macha

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 103 posts
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[SB]
  • Server:Gandara

Posted 09 September 2013 - 06:25 PM

View PostAzure Skye, on 09 September 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Its purely optional, you don't need to spend it or buy the infinite coin and there is hardly any achievement points for expect Connoisseur of Pain and Glutton for Punishment. im not buy it or playing tribulation mode either. I've seen videos of tribulation for playing thru that. You're voting with your money and nothing else. The people that "need" to do this are achievement hunters and nothing else. There isnt any skin for finishing the achievement track either.
That's why I put the marks on the word "force", because nobody is really forced to buy it if they got enough gold/baubles to keep buying normal Continue Coins...
I'm in the average/clumsy player category, therefore I avoid Tribulation mode carefully. I was already pulling my hair out with the traps in the Pain Cliffs in normal mode...

#11 Featherman

Featherman

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1028 posts
  • Location:Frolicking in Kalos

Posted 09 September 2013 - 06:32 PM

View PostAzure Skye, on 09 September 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

Its a memory game and knowing where everything else is, knowing where everything else in SAB and doing it quickly.
Difference is you can get far in Contra and Battle Toads on skill without previous knowledge of the game because of the telegraphing. I can generally make it to level level 5 or 6 in Contra without warming up or memorizing enemy placement. If I don't remember where one trap is in SAB I die simple as that.

#12 Azure Skye

Azure Skye

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2099 posts
  • Location:(づ。*◕__◕。)づ・。*。✧・゜゜・。✧・。*。✧ Magic!
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[CUTE]
  • Server:Dragonbrand

Posted 09 September 2013 - 06:35 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 09 September 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Difference is you can get far in Contra and Battle Toads on skill without previous knowledge of the game because of the telegraphing. I can generally make it to level level 5 or 6 in Contra without warming up or memorizing enemy placement. If I don't remember where one trap is in SAB I die simple as that.
You are suppose to rage from it, its not easy simple as that. Its the feel accomplishment after raging thru everything it and getting thru it.

#13 Brandon the Don

Brandon the Don

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 302 posts
  • Location:Somewhere
  • Profession:Warrior
  • Guild Tag:[TH]
  • Server:Gunnar’s Hold

Posted 09 September 2013 - 06:38 PM

As someone who played "I wanna be the guy", this is actually rather forgiving :D

#14 Featherman

Featherman

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1028 posts
  • Location:Frolicking in Kalos

Posted 09 September 2013 - 07:08 PM

View PostAzure Skye, on 09 September 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

You are suppose to rage from it, its not easy simple as that. Its the feel accomplishment after raging thru everything it and getting thru it.
For me, it's annoying if anything. And the way the game does it is cheap, which is what the OP was asking.

#15 Azure Skye

Azure Skye

    Golem Rider

  • Members
  • 2099 posts
  • Location:(づ。*◕__◕。)づ・。*。✧・゜゜・。✧・。*。✧ Magic!
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[CUTE]
  • Server:Dragonbrand

Posted 09 September 2013 - 07:27 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 09 September 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

For me, it's annoying if anything. And the way the game does it is cheap, which is what the OP was asking.
They're pay tribute and homage the old style of game and the game mechanics of yesteryear. I guess a few people are to young to remember the old style of gaming and wants everything to be easy and complain when its to easy. =/

Edited by Azure Skye, 09 September 2013 - 07:34 PM.


#16 Featherman

Featherman

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1028 posts
  • Location:Frolicking in Kalos

Posted 09 September 2013 - 07:41 PM

View PostAzure Skye, on 09 September 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

They're pay tribute and homage the old style of game and the game mechanics of yesteryear. I guess a few people are to young to remember the old style of gaming and wants everything to be easy and complain when its to easy. =/
Uh...nonsequiter? The issue is with cheapness. Those old games TB pays a homage do manages to do difficulty without cheapness, and I've already pretty much explained why. Anyway, you're pretty much derailing the thread at this point.

Edited by Featherman, 09 September 2013 - 07:42 PM.


#17 Capn_Crass

Capn_Crass

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 120 posts
  • Guild Tag:[TOSH]
  • Server:Ehmry Bay

Posted 09 September 2013 - 08:32 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 09 September 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

You can see the obstacles in Battle Toads and Contra, and avoid them as they appear. It's just difficult to do so.

OK, Battletoads I'll give you (mostly for that stupid tunnel and its unforgiving extra life/continue mechanics), but why does everyone cite Contra as a challenging game? The only way Contra was ever "challenging" is if you were playing two player, and then only if your partner couldn't wrap their brain around needing to move as a unit to get past any of the traps. Beyond that it was one of the easiest NES games to come out. Get spread shot => don't rush => Congratulations. You have defeated the vile Red Falcon and saved the universe. Consider yourself a hero. Let's go out for burgers.

#18 Darkobra

Darkobra

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1366 posts
  • Location:Scotland

Posted 09 September 2013 - 09:22 PM

View PostAzure Skye, on 09 September 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

They're pay tribute and homage the old style of game and the game mechanics of yesteryear. I guess a few people are to young to remember the old style of gaming and wants everything to be easy and complain when its to easy. =/

With a Mario game every year, Zelda game every other year, remake upon remake being released through PSN, Steam, XBox and even on discs in mega collections, you cannot honestly say that age has any part in this.

#19 MazingerZ

MazingerZ

    Golem Rider

  • Curse Premium
  • Curse Premium
  • 2274 posts
  • Profession:Guardian
  • Guild Tag:[CYRL]
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 09 September 2013 - 09:27 PM

View PostDarkobra, on 09 September 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

With a Mario game every year, Zelda game every other year, remake upon remake being released through PSN, Steam, XBox and even on discs in mega collections, you cannot honestly say that age has any part in this.

The thing is the 'life system' is generally regarded as antiquated bullshit and only existed in console form because a lot of those games were created with the concept that they'd probably be installed in an arcade.

That way no code tweaking was needed when it migrated to hardware that required tokens to start the game.

There's a reason the life system isn't used a lot any more.  There is no point in punishing your players for failing to that extent unless you were trying to wring a profit from them through those mechanisms.

Edited by MazingerZ, 09 September 2013 - 09:28 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#20 Fantasy Trope

Fantasy Trope

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 136 posts
  • Location:Sto-vo-kor
  • Profession:Elementalist
  • Guild Tag:[EZ]
  • Server:Tarnished Coast

Posted 09 September 2013 - 09:28 PM

Dontain shows us how easy Tribulation Mode is:



#21 Featherman

Featherman

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1028 posts
  • Location:Frolicking in Kalos

Posted 09 September 2013 - 09:35 PM

View PostCapn_Crass, on 09 September 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

OK, Battletoads I'll give you (mostly for that stupid tunnel and its unforgiving extra life/continue mechanics), but why does everyone cite Contra as a challenging game? The only way Contra was ever "challenging" is if you were playing two player, and then only if your partner couldn't wrap their brain around needing to move as a unit to get past any of the traps. Beyond that it was one of the easiest NES games to come out. Get spread shot => don't rush => Congratulations. You have defeated the vile Red Falcon and saved the universe. Consider yourself a hero. Let's go out for burgers.
I wasn't the one that brought it up, but I think it's still fairly difficult using that method. Bullets can be pretty tricky to dodge.

View PostMazingerZ, on 09 September 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

The thing is the 'life system' is generally regarded as antiquated bullshit and only existed in console form because a lot of those games were created with the concept that they'd probably be installed in an arcade.

That way no code tweaking was needed when it migrated to hardware that required tokens to start the game.

There's a reason the life system isn't used a lot any more.  There is no point in punishing your players for failing to that extent unless you were trying to wring a profit from them through those mechanisms.
That's a good point to bring up. Mario games since the N64 one have given you an abundance of lives, which are practically pointless since you can retry without resetting progress. Zelda games don't even use lives anymore.

Edited by Featherman, 09 September 2013 - 09:37 PM.


#22 Yui San

Yui San

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 292 posts
  • Location:Zurich
  • Server:Gandara

Posted 09 September 2013 - 10:06 PM

View PostAzure Skye, on 09 September 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

SAB is grinding and hell mode (pulling your hair out, throwing your key board and wanting get that anger out of you) playing to play to get baubles to play tribulation mode. Its nothing to homage to the old style of games like Battletoads Tubro tunnel and Ninja Gaiden? Its nothing but a memory game.

It's more like an homage to Dragon's Lair (NES) XD

To answer the thread starter's question. The difficulty is extremely cheap imo but it's still fun somehow.

#23 Andemius

Andemius

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 688 posts
  • Guild Tag:[herd]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 09 September 2013 - 11:16 PM

Well, I've done w1 trib mode several times, and I enjoy the "challenge" of it not being easymode faceroll.

However - I think the fact the there a no visual clues to show what area is spiked ect (exception lava floors),makes it feel cheap.

#24 Arewn

Arewn

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1068 posts
  • Location:Ontario, Canada
  • Server:Blackgate

Posted 09 September 2013 - 11:21 PM

Cheap, very cheap, and cheap by design. Mastery in this type of game comes from running through and slowly mapping out where you can go, death after death, and both being able to memorize those routes as well as have the skill to make the maneuvers(jumps and what not) by memory alone (without being able to see the obstacle in most cases).
Cheap deaths were a way to extend playtime of old titles which were limited in size, and to scam you out of coins in arcades. There is a certain level of skill and mastery that comes with it though.

#25 raspberry jam

raspberry jam

    Vigil Crusader

  • Members
  • 4810 posts

Posted 09 September 2013 - 11:39 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 09 September 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

In IWTBTG the goal is obvious and visible but the challenge was in incredibly precise timing of execution
IWBTG has lots of non-obvious and invisible stuff.

#26 StormDragonZ

StormDragonZ

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 396 posts
  • Location:Syracuse
  • Profession:Warrior
  • Guild Tag:[MAGI]
  • Server:Northern Shiverpeaks

Posted 09 September 2013 - 11:56 PM

I don't even find the normal mode fun.

How anyone could find "Tribulation Mode" fun actually scares me. What the hell do you people do outside of SAB to match this form of excitement!?

#27 FrogKnight87

FrogKnight87

    Sylvari Specialist

  • Members
  • 747 posts
  • Location:Québec, Canada

Posted 10 September 2013 - 12:12 AM

View PostStormDragonZ, on 09 September 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

I don't even find the normal mode fun.

How anyone could find "Tribulation Mode" fun actually scares me. What the hell do you people do outside of SAB to match this form of excitement!?
It's not because you don't enjoy this kind of content taht people who do enjoy it are abnormal. I LOVE SAB normal mode, Every bit of it. I also tried tribulation mode and I do like it, I just wish continuing the game after GAME OVER takes too long which is MORE of a pain than the actual dying.

#28 Guardian of the Light

Guardian of the Light

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1432 posts
  • Guild Tag:[ADA]
  • Server:Isle of Janthir

Posted 10 September 2013 - 01:25 AM

I think the creator has cited I wanna be the guy and "cat mario" as inspirations for tribulations mode. Those guys had plenty of invisible traps which acted like pranks from the developer. They're both cheap and challenging, you have to figure out the only difficult path to victory then execute it perfectly. In ordedr to do this, you'll need to die... a lot which honestly makes the infinite continue coin feel essential and online guides a major boon.

#29 Tyrantscreed

Tyrantscreed

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 450 posts
  • Guild Tag:[SG]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 10 September 2013 - 03:29 AM

Some of the "edge" jumps are really cheap. Spikes right after checkpoint are cheap too, those ones just tick me off.

The only BIG regret that I have with TM is that I have to do ALL the World 1 Zones TM to do the World 2 TM. That is so unnecessary, I don't want a green skin, I want a yellow skin. Why can't we just have all TM mode unlocked? :|

P.S. If you exit after finish a zone in TM mode before it takes you to the next zone (or bonus if you finished zone 3), then your progress doesn't count? What the kitten is that..I mean I have the bloody token for crying out loud. So many loop-hole bugs, I really hope they fix this...it's frustrating as it is.

Edited by Tyrantscreed, 10 September 2013 - 03:30 AM.


#30 Swift Red

Swift Red

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 258 posts
  • Guild Tag:[TotA]
  • Server:Stormbluff Isle

Posted 10 September 2013 - 04:35 AM

Tribulation mode is quite easy the second time around. I've beaten it 5 times now on all World 1 Zones. All you need to get past is that initial first time. (Also jump dodges help a ton for the tricky jumps)




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users