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Is a Major Stats overhaul inevitable for GW2's future?


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#1 Castaa

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 06:27 PM

Or does it go far beyond stats and get into weapon abilities and skills and the fundamental nature of how damage over time, healing and toughness work in game?

To me it seems bizarre that Anet has produce system where direct damage is by far the most effective set up for most all classes and players.  Given that direct damage is the easiest in theory to execute in an encounter.

#2 Gerroh

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 06:39 PM

It's not that we need a stats overhaul, it's that we need a mechanics and enemies overhaul. Very few enemies have protection or counters to direct damage, and condition damage takes time to do what it does, plus it also has a heap of restrictions on it.

Also, we don't have hexes or enchantments, just vastly simplified versions of the two. There's just a huge lack of depth to the game's combat system.

#3 Omega X

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 08:10 PM

Reintroducing traditional hexes might just destroy the momentum of the combat. Focus would shift to hex management/prevention in what is already a loaded deck of combo skills. They're going to have to be real careful if they go that route.

#4 Swoopeh

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 08:52 PM

View PostGerroh, on 14 September 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

It's not that we need a stats overhaul, it's that we need a mechanics and enemies overhaul. Very few enemies have protection or counters to direct damage, and condition damage takes time to do what it does, plus it also has a heap of restrictions on it.

This exactly, the only way to make support work is to create encounters you can only beat with support abilities or anything that breaks up DPS like spreading/grouping, kiting, soaking, utilizing pressure plates/buttons, etc. Oct 15 patch is another band aid and it's welcome sure enough but it's not going to break the zerker attitude, no matter how much they buff support.

Edited by Swoopeh, 14 September 2013 - 08:53 PM.


#5 Dakkaface

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 01:18 AM

View PostSwoopeh, on 14 September 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

Oct 15 patch is another band aid and it's welcome sure enough but it's not going to break the zerker attitude, no matter how much they buff support.

Is it really a bandaid though?  You'd think if they were trying to buff builds other than direct damage they wouldn't have nerfed boons & conditions so hard.

Edited by Dakkaface, 15 September 2013 - 01:19 AM.


#6 FoxBat

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 10:40 AM

Near all the stats work just fine in PvP/WvW, and a variety of stat combos are played there, with the exception of healing power being bad for at least half the classes. As mentioned the major issue is enemy design, and the biggest chunk of that just comes down to enemies doing a handful of big attacks that can easily be dodged or blocked.

Edited by FoxBat, 15 September 2013 - 10:50 AM.


#7 aspi

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 12:07 PM

I never quite understood why they went away from the original stats in game. Primary stat for every class, strenght, fast casting, soul reaping. Instead they created a bland power/ health/ precision stat build. Must have been a lot easier for them to develop. :/

#8 FoxBat

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 01:07 PM

View Postaspi, on 15 September 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

I never quite understood why they went away from the original stats in game.

Stats in the original game were primarily there to constrain how you combined skills, both limiting the power of secondaries and making it harder to combine multiple lines. When you have no secondaries and a skill system as locked down as GW2's it's not so needed, and even then the trait system plays that role with the various weapon/utility class benefits. Gear wise the only real choice you had in GW1 was to run minor or superior, so I don't see how that is any better than where we are now, hell at least you have some rune choice.

Edited by FoxBat, 15 September 2013 - 01:10 PM.


#9 Miragee

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 01:45 PM

View PostGerroh, on 14 September 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

It's not that we need a stats overhaul, it's that we need a mechanics and enemies overhaul. Very few enemies have protection or counters to direct damage, and condition damage takes time to do what it does, plus it also has a heap of restrictions on it.

Also, we don't have hexes or enchantments, just vastly simplified versions of the two. There's just a huge lack of depth to the game's combat system.

The whole skill system, boon&condition system and combat system is way too simple  to do anything on that part. Enemies can't have team builds were you have to adjust like in gw1. A revamp on the KI side would mean that the enemies would get lots and lots of abilities a player has no access to. That's the only way you can make it work on this way.

#10 Swoopeh

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 02:16 PM

View PostDakkaface, on 15 September 2013 - 01:18 AM, said:

Is it really a bandaid though?  You'd think if they were trying to buff builds other than direct damage they wouldn't have nerfed boons & conditions so hard.

I hope it's not a band-aid, depends on what they're aiming for. The patch notes preview mentions that they want to open up more support like builds and gameplay if people want to play that way. In that context alone it might be successful, i.e. if someone wants to play support in a dungeon it could be a lot more viable. In the context of most effective way to clear dungeons though DPS will always remain king until they change the encounters themselves so it won't "solve" that.

View PostMiragee, on 15 September 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

The whole skill system, boon&condition system and combat system is way too simple  to do anything on that part. Enemies can't have team builds were you have to adjust like in gw1. A revamp on the KI side would mean that the enemies would get lots and lots of abilities a player has no access to. That's the only way you can make it work on this way.

There are tons of things to do to promote support, I've given a few examples in my last post (and in a different thread). Enemies aren't equal to players and already have unique abilities, it's easy to build on that. This is something Blizzard has always done very well, their encounters are second to none and there's no shame in taking a leaf out of their book here. Each encounter should have a mechanic it's built around which can range from easy to complex with several subsystems running in parallel at once. This may involve debuffs, buffs, positioning, kiting, pressing buttons, killing adds, killing adds close to or far away from other adds/the boss, etc. Support could fill a big part here as long as it doesn't require specific professions or you can't do it.

Edited by Swoopeh, 15 September 2013 - 02:18 PM.


#11 Alex Dimitri

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 04:36 PM

Guys this is the price of creating the game without "holy trinity", if they change the mobs, bosses and such they would wipe us in every encounter. We get just as much as we need to heal up / remove / dodge so we don`t end up dead, imagine boss that can mitigate or just plain all avoid direct damage it would be hilarious..... !

Even now as we speak any serious party wouldn`t consider takin` some classes (with not so flashy / useful utilitys), condition damage is a joke in PvE (dungeons) and OP in PvP (sPvP), i will not even comment "Healing Power" .

For instance i play Mesmer and every party want`s me, but there`s only one viable setup (armor, build) zerker shatter !
My usual crew for dungeons is as follows 1 mesmer, 1 guardian (2 higher lvl fractals) 3 warriors (2 higher lvl fractals) and except guardian everyone runs full zerker, whenever we picked up some other class for runs it was LOLorama and rezzing all the way.

I play sometimes sPvP as conditions Staff/Scepter-Torch but then i more troll people with constant dissapearing act then i do damage, plus this way you can only kill people 1 on 1 if they are total noobs, second option is to make small group and gangbang wondering peeps around maps (which i hate) !

As goes with WvW if you go around with big group of people you can equip Benjo or polish your nails while in middle of battle since it really doesn`t matter, winner is always the one who manages to pull up more people and create more blobs...... !

And i don`t think stats are the ones that need rework, more stats ain`t gonna change much (since everyone will get them), if i would change something it would be TRAITS this needs major overhaul and expansion......this would make more variety (if done properly) !!!

#12 turbo234

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 04:46 PM

It seems like they majorly dumbed down the combat system from gw1 to gw2, but nothing is going to change. They're going to keep trying to balance everything but nothing huge like you would want or hope.

#13 lmaonade

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:06 AM

View PostGerroh, on 14 September 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

It's not that we need a stats overhaul, it's that we need a mechanics and enemies overhaul. Very few enemies have protection or counters to direct damage, and condition damage takes time to do what it does, plus it also has a heap of restrictions on it.

Also, we don't have hexes or enchantments, just vastly simplified versions of the two. There's just a huge lack of depth to the game's combat system.

I loved the hexes and enchantments system in guild wars 1 :( it was so engaging as offensive and defensive support systems, unlike gw2 where you just press buttons and passively apply boons and conditions...

#14 Serris

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:13 AM

View PostFoxBat, on 15 September 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Stats in the original game were primarily there to constrain how you combined skills, both limiting the power of secondaries and making it harder to combine multiple lines. When you have no secondaries and a skill system as locked down as GW2's it's not so needed, and even then the trait system plays that role with the various weapon/utility class benefits. Gear wise the only real choice you had in GW1 was to run minor or superior, so I don't see how that is any better than where we are now, hell at least you have some rune choice.

i had more fun making interesting skill builds in gw1 than i did making gearbuilds in gw2

back to OP: i'm more interested to see the effects on WvW. i can imagine a few supporters could make a huge improvement in the longevity of the zerg.

#15 Serris

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:17 AM

View PostAlex Dimitri, on 15 September 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Guys this is the price of creating the game without "holy trinity", if they change the mobs, bosses and such they would wipe us in every encounter.

here's the thing: Arenanet did not want to remove the trinity. they just didn't want tank, healer, dps. they proposed to replace the holy trinity by "control/damage/support", and every class could do a little of everything. some classes were supposed to be better at some than others (guardians were supposed to be good at control and support, thieves at control and damage, for examples).
however there is no need for control or support in most PvE situations, so players push for the fastest they can kill an enemy. which is through damage.




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