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Does GW2 need damage meters?

dps being a better player

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#1 Castaa

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 05:21 PM

Does GW2 need the option to turn on damage/healing output for the group/people around you fighting?

I think it does, desperately. I say this because nothing made me want to be a better player than adding my damage meters to my UI in Rift because it offered a window on how to improve as a player in comparison to others.

Right now, I think many including myself, play largely in the dark about how good or bad their build and/or technique is and it makes encounters that much more difficult and frustrating for everyone.

Of course top end gear is always going to make some difference but right now it's difficult to judge how much a difference gear makes and the other variables a player can immediately change and improve.

#2 FoxBat

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 05:35 PM

View PostCastaa, on 04 October 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Right now, I think many including myself, play largely in the dark about how good or bad their build and/or technique is and it makes encounters that much more difficult and frustrating for everyone.

If "everyone" gets better at encounters, it just gives Anet license to push up encounter difficulty when they want to make something "hard." I guess the elite players would see some benefit, but encouraging more PuGs to adopt cookie cutter is not something I'd want to see.

I wouldn't mind something like the ability to save a combat log so people could run an external app to evaluate after the fact. It would let you analyze your performance without becoming an immediate issue in parties.

#3 Hasselmannen

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 06:14 PM

Anyways, even though I personally like dps meters I don't think they are good for the community as a whole since it adds a competing factor, and a reason to look down upon other players which is something at least I want to see as little as possible in any game. Sure, it has its benefits, but the consequences can be dramatic to say the least...

#4 ylistra

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 06:29 PM

Why not?  Just put it right next to the Control and Support meters.

#5 Darkobra

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 06:59 PM

Honestly, I don't see a reason for a team damage meter. It doesn't enforce "I have to be better." Instead, it enforces "They aren't as good as I am."

It also really encourages damage above all else. If I wanted that, I'd go to a game that does it better.

#6 Desild

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 07:02 PM

When Guild Wars 2 moves away from the "Beserker or bust" paradigm, and damage is actualy deterined by skill rather than by gear type, sure, we will need DPS meters to separate the wheat from the shaft.

But until then, it's an exercise in futility. Just go beserker and don't die and you will be fine. And dying (or better yet, not dying) is still a skill based parameter.

#7 Castaa

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 08:49 PM

View PostDesild, on 04 October 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

When Guild Wars 2 moves away from the "Beserker or bust" paradigm, and damage is actualy deterined by skill rather than by gear type, sure, we will need DPS meters to separate the wheat from the shaft.

But until then, it's an exercise in futility. Just go beserker and don't die and you will be fine. And dying (or better yet, not dying) is still a skill based parameter.

This isn't so much about gear but weapons selection, rotation and utilities.

#8 Phenn

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 08:55 PM

View PostDesild, on 04 October 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

separate the wheat from the shaft.

Err, chaff. I believe the word you're looking for is "chaff." Though "shaft" did make me giggle a bit.

On topic, I agree. At this point DPS meters are largely unnecessary as the gameplay is relatively straight forward. The max-DPS build/rotation for thief (for example) has been known since right after release. A DPS meter wouldn't change the build. Only prove what's been known.

Now, if (and that's a big "if") ANet does release all weapons for all classes and offers skill branching opportunities, it may be more helpful. But even then, with enough time the meta-builds will be discovered, and that'll be that.

#9 Red Omen

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 09:27 PM

"Wheat from the shaft" is my new favorite malapropism.

The game needs more explicit and verbose combat feedback across the board. The skill update later this October will provide actual numbers in trait tooltips, which has long been sorely needed and will give a much clearer idea of build effectiveness.

Of course, any time there is a number, there are people who will stake everything on making sure that their number is higher than everyone else's, and others who will tie that number to self-worth. That's human nature.

#10 El Duderino

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 10:36 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 04 October 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

If "everyone" gets better at encounters, it just gives Anet license to push up encounter difficulty when they want to make something "hard." I guess the elite players would see some benefit, but encouraging more PuGs to adopt cookie cutter is not something I'd want to see.

I wouldn't mind something like the ability to save a combat log so people could run an external app to evaluate after the fact. It would let you analyze your performance without becoming an immediate issue in parties.

I have no opinion about damage meters, but I do wonder how you logically connect content getting harder to needing cookie cutter PUGs. Can you please expound upon this? I'm almost positive they aren't mutually inclusive as you are suggesting. If I am right, doesn't that kind of make your whole point useless?

#11 Swoopeh

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 10:58 PM

View PostDarkobra, on 04 October 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Honestly, I don't see a reason for a team damage meter. It doesn't enforce "I have to be better." Instead, it enforces "They aren't as good as I am."

That's why, if it were to have a damage meter, it should only have one for yourself. I don't mind there not being a damage meter atm and it's definitely great against elitist group behaviour, but I think that for personal performance and improvement it would be helpful. The only way to compare it should be by talking about it which you don't have to do, you don't even have to enable the feature if you don't care about min-maxxing your DPS. Not that it matters that much right now, but some people like to strive to get better and challenge themselves :)

Another thing that I'm missing is a good death log. When wiping it's often good to know what killed you and that can be hard with GW2's 1 shot mechanics. I do tend to look at the combat log and can usually find it in there, but PvP has a death breakdown so why don't they implement that in PvE?

Edited by Swoopeh, 04 October 2013 - 11:01 PM.


#12 Featherman

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 12:55 AM

Shouldn't be necessary in theory. Since the game allows for most professions to spam rotations with little drawback or execution skill, effective DPS can be directly extrapolated from from gear. Instead of meters, I think the game needs better tooltips for calculating dps.

#13 raspberry jam

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 02:42 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 04 October 2013 - 10:36 PM, said:

I have no opinion about damage meters, but I do wonder how you logically connect content getting harder to needing cookie cutter PUGs. Can you please expound upon this? I'm almost positive they aren't mutually inclusive as you are suggesting. If I am right, doesn't that kind of make your whole point useless?
I think he's right. Optimal play is centered on spamming damage, so unless game mechanics changed, "harder" would basically mean that you'd have to bring a more optimized build, there's not many other ways to improve. And since most people would not want to spend the time needed to optimize their build themselves (especially since it costs to unlearn traits), cookie cutters builds would become very attractive. And of course you'd want your teammates also running such builds to minimize the failure risk.

#14 Castaa

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 02:57 AM

I think people are in undervaluing the range of DPS output based on skill/weapon choice/trait builds.  Though it being hidden does promote ignorance.

#15 El Duderino

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:47 AM

View Postraspberry jam, on 05 October 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

I think he's right. Optimal play is centered on spamming damage, so unless game mechanics changed, "harder" would basically mean that you'd have to bring a more optimized build, there's not many other ways to improve. And since most people would not want to spend the time needed to optimize their build themselves (especially since it costs to unlearn traits), cookie cutters builds would become very attractive. And of course you'd want your teammates also running such builds to minimize the failure risk.

I'm not sure if builds really have anything to do with it. Once you have your "zerker" gear, what else is there to really make any cookie cutter better than another other than a couple Mesmer skills to help skip content? I can't think of any real advantage you can come up with in this game is regards to group dynamics other than the obvious one we already have which is centered around warriors, guardians and mesmers.

The way most "harder" content works so far is knowing how the mechanics of that specific content works, much like beating a boss from an old NES game.  I don't see how having any combination of watered down classes would make any content any easier unless the developers specifically made it so that certain class-specific support skills were necessary for that content in which case it wouldn't be the "hardness" of the content that required cookie-cuter builds but rather the developers own desires.

#16 Desild

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:21 AM

My misuse of the term chaff was completely intended (lies). Because as a Cleric Guardian I'm always getting the shaft in the balance department.

My damage is miniscule, I'd dare say about a third of a Guardian with actual Berserker gear and nearly half of a Guardian with Knight's gear. Seemingly that Knight's gear gives you next to nothing in terms or survivability in high game playing, what benefit is there to forsake higher damage at the exchange of nothing?

In a game truly as "Trinity Free" as it was announced, the nerf hammer would have fallen and equalized Berserker gear eight months ago. Gear doubling your damage output? I'd love to slap the guy who thought that up. Critical Damage is a stat that should have gone the way of the Dodo along with Magic Find. At least then they could equalize damage between Gear types without breaking the game in half.

#17 MordinArkham

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:55 AM

View PostDesild, on 05 October 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

At least then they could equalize damage between Gear types without breaking the game in half.
I'm sorry, but with every gearchoice in the game, you sacrafice something. With Berserker gear, if you don't play carefully you can die from the slap of a butterfly. Knight's gear gives you high armor, and kind of a mediocore damage output, but you still have to watch out for your health. In a Soldier gear, you gonna have high health, high armor, but no crit or crit dmg. So you survive a lot, but don't do much dmg. Same goes for every type of gear, that's why you can mix up some thing, like i use berserker, and valkyrie armor with knight gems in it, and valkyrie weapon, so i have decent dmg, and survivability.
And this game doesn't need a dmg meter, and the reason why they never meant to include that is because here, you have to find the way you like to play with your class, chose a gear for that playstyle and you're good to go. Just don't die, work with your teammates and be usefull in your own way.

#18 Conkers

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 11:00 AM

The game does not really warrant a DPS meter, the DPS "rotations" are too simple and the PvE is too easy, and I suspect it always will be, because with no resource management, the rez mechanic, and the lesser importance / impact of teamwork they are more limited in instance design and can not get down to the fine margins for success or failure that you can in raids in games with a more standard class setup.

Edited by Conkers, 05 October 2013 - 11:01 AM.


#19 Desild

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 11:02 AM

View PostMordinArkham, on 05 October 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but with every gearchoice in the game, you sacrafice something.

Pity those sacrifices aren't equivalent right? Not when one-shot mechanics are prevalent and will get you no matter how much toughness you stack, or when choosing Knight's over Berserker gives you way less damage over the supposed survivability. That Cleric's, despite being a support-based gear choice, basically cripples you, as what you bring over the to the table doesn't cut the damage reduction you get.

The game isn't balanced, not by a long shot. And Gear is one of the main causes. And while that imbalance persists, having Damage Meters is moot, as they are often used as a measure of skill rather than performance (especially when skill is highly correlated with performance). Good performance in Guild Wars 2 is not dying.

Edited by Desild, 05 October 2013 - 11:06 AM.


#20 GuanglaiKangyi

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 02:41 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 05 October 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

I'm not sure if builds really have anything to do with it. Once you have your "zerker" gear, what else is there to really make any cookie cutter better than another other than a couple Mesmer skills to help skip content? I can't think of any real advantage you can come up with in this game is regards to group dynamics other than the obvious one we already have which is centered around warriors, guardians and mesmers.

The way most "harder" content works so far is knowing how the mechanics of that specific content works, much like beating a boss from an old NES game.  I don't see how having any combination of watered down classes would make any content any easier unless the developers specifically made it so that certain class-specific support skills were necessary for that content in which case it wouldn't be the "hardness" of the content that required cookie-cuter builds but rather the developers own desires.

Traits actually make quite a difference.  An AH spec does anywhere between 40-60% of a DPS guardian spec, depending on exactly how you build it.

#21 El Duderino

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 03:09 PM

View PostGuanglaiKangyi, on 05 October 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

Traits actually make quite a difference.  An AH spec does anywhere between 40-60% of a DPS guardian spec, depending on exactly how you build it.

Touche! Although, to my point, I don't think that necessarily means that harder content would lead to more cookie-cutter builds and more than the content does now. Some people do appreciate min/maxing and other's don't I think that is more part of the person playing the game than the content being hard.

#22 Illein

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 03:31 PM

I don't even want to go as far as needing a DPS meter in the classical sense of comparing yourself with everyone else in your group - all I really would like to have, is a tool to gauge my own personal DPS in a vacuum.

Something like dummies, but actually working correctly, conditions, boons, the whole range of possible group buffs available to me while I try things out. Properly adjustable and most of all exact in its out-put, I think it'd be a quite some fun to play around with it and see what exactly this or or that trait, utility, rune, whatever does for me DPS wise.

#23 MordinArkham

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 03:48 PM

View PostConkers, on 05 October 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

..and the lesser importance / impact of teamwork they are more limited in instance design and can not get down to the fine margins for success or failure that you can in raids in games with a more standard class setup.
Yeah right.. have you tried doing the Clockheart fight with people who won't listen to/ignore any tactics for that fight? Cuz sometime even one guys incompetence can ruin that encounter. Or with the norn and the little robot dude? Sooo many pug's fail on those fights. They're not hard sure, but if just one guy doesn't know what to do, the whole team can suffer, just like in big raids.

True. but to really get that damage out of your berserker gear, first you have to survive.. here's an example, few days ago i did the mentioned new path in TA with some ppl, 2 of them were warriors in berserker gear, you could tell cuz when they were constantly being healed, they destroyed everything, but the moment we stopped doing that, they were downed every 10 seconds. And as we know "a dead dps, is not doing any dps". And compared to that i'm running with my guardian in full knight's armor+berserker jewelry and i only die if everyone else is dead around me, so what's better on the long run?

#24 raspberry jam

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 05:09 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 05 October 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

I'm not sure if builds really have anything to do with it. Once you have your "zerker" gear, what else is there to really make any cookie cutter better than another other than a couple Mesmer skills to help skip content? I can't think of any real advantage you can come up with in this game is regards to group dynamics other than the obvious one we already have which is centered around warriors, guardians and mesmers.

The way most "harder" content works so far is knowing how the mechanics of that specific content works, much like beating a boss from an old NES game.  I don't see how having any combination of watered down classes would make any content any easier unless the developers specifically made it so that certain class-specific support skills were necessary for that content in which case it wouldn't be the "hardness" of the content that required cookie-cuter builds but rather the developers own desires.
Hmm... That is all true. You are right.

View PostMordinArkham, on 05 October 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

here's an example, few days ago i did the mentioned new path in TA with some ppl, 2 of them were warriors in berserker gear, you could tell cuz when they were constantly being healed, they destroyed everything, but the moment we stopped doing that, they were downed every 10 seconds. And as we know "a dead dps, is not doing any dps". And compared to that i'm running with my guardian in full knight's armor+berserker jewelry and i only die if everyone else is dead around me, so what's better on the long run?
Better in the long run is those two guys destroying everything. So keep them healed up.

#25 MordinArkham

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 06:14 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 05 October 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Better in the long run is those two guys destroying everything. So keep them healed up.
Yepp, and take away their endurance bar, and selfheal, cuz from now on, every person who gears into berserker deserves a dedicated team of healers.
I came here because i liked the idea of not having roles.. if i want to be a healer, i would just go back to WoW, I don't care if a fight takes longer cuz ppl use gear with some survival stats, and if they want to go glasscannon, okay but don't make the game harder for me in the process.

#26 Trei

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 06:16 PM

View PostDesild, on 05 October 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

My misuse of the term chaff was completely intended (lies). Because as a Cleric Guardian I'm always getting the shaft in the balance department.

My damage is miniscule, I'd dare say about a third of a Guardian with actual Berserker gear and nearly half of a Guardian with Knight's gear. Seemingly that Knight's gear gives you next to nothing in terms or survivability in high game playing, what benefit is there to forsake higher damage at the exchange of nothing?

In a game truly as "Trinity Free" as it was announced, the nerf hammer would have fallen and equalized Berserker gear eight months ago. Gear doubling your damage output? I'd love to slap the guy who thought that up. Critical Damage is a stat that should have gone the way of the Dodo along with Magic Find. At least then they could equalize damage between Gear types without breaking the game in half.
Only critical damage?

I would rather all stats get dodo'd as far as gear is concerned.

#27 El Duderino

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 06:22 PM

View PostMordinArkham, on 05 October 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Yepp, and take away their endurance bar, and selfheal, cuz from now on, every person who gears into berserker deserves a dedicated team of healers.
I came here because i liked the idea of not having roles.. if i want to be a healer, i would just go back to WoW, I don't care if a fight takes longer cuz ppl use gear with some survival stats, and if they want to go glasscannon, okay but don't make the game harder for me in the process.

You just had bad zerker warriors on your team. Once you learn how to dodge better you will see how much better zerker is to everything else. I mean, Knight's doesn't really keep you up a whole lot longer than zerker anyway if you just take damage to the face. Maybe an extra hit or two depending on the content.

View PostTrei, on 05 October 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

Only critical damage?

I would rather all stats get dodo'd as far as gear is concerned.

This way we wouldn't have to think at all or make any decisions.

#28 raspberry jam

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:06 PM

As far as stats are concerned, I think that the entire system is very badly done, but that's for another thread. Suffice to say that, as in so many other things, GW1 had stats almost perfect.

View PostMordinArkham, on 05 October 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Yepp, and take away their endurance bar, and selfheal, cuz from now on, every person who gears into berserker deserves a dedicated team of healers.
I came here because i liked the idea of not having roles.. if i want to be a healer, i would just go back to WoW, I don't care if a fight takes longer cuz ppl use gear with some survival stats, and if they want to go glasscannon, okay but don't make the game harder for me in the process.
If you don't care about optimal outcome (as in dispatching enemies quicker), then why did you ask for it? lol.

Edited by raspberry jam, 05 October 2013 - 07:08 PM.


#29 Trei

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:08 PM

View PostEl Duderino, on 05 October 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

...
This way we wouldn't have to think at all or make any decisions.
I prefer interesting procs and effects than polarizing stats.

#30 El Duderino

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:10 PM

View PostTrei, on 05 October 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

I prefer interesting procs and effects than polarizing stats.

Then why are you playing GW2?




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