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Why don't I like GW2 Dungeons?

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#1 pdubbya

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 10:31 PM

Am I the only one who's never found the GW2 dungeons interesting or fun? My only reasoning would be my immense time spent raiding in Hard Modes in WoW. I think GW2 is a far superior game in the long run but the GW2 dungeons are horribly laid out, extremely confusing for the new player and the boss fights feel like hack n slash button masher encounters.

I get into pugs and they make WoW pugs feel like god mode and I never thought I'd say that. I really do enjoy this game but I just don't get why they had to try to be so...out of the box....as far as dungeons go. All the multiple "paths" should be seperate instances imo as well. I hate catering to the casual players all the time but when I take new players thru dungeon runs they always get lost. Get caught up in the wrong packs or get dissolved by traps repeatedly. Not much fun if you ask me.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for whatever reason but I'm sure there are others who feel the same way or can at least relate.

What's your opinion on GW2 dungeons?

#2 Bloggi

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:23 AM

Well, I've never played WoW so I can't comment about most of what you said, however just a thought about your point here...

View Postpdubbya, on 06 October 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

I hate catering to the casual players all the time but when I take new players thru dungeon runs they always get lost. Get caught up in the wrong packs or get dissolved by traps repeatedly. Not much fun if you ask me.

When it comes to 'casual players' or 'new players', they are general terms but we should probably split them into two distinct groups:

- the people who know the basics, are quick to learn but either don't play a lot or are not familiar with a particular dungeon path
- the people who don't know the basics, don't want to learn or cooperate and are also not familiar with a dungeon path

The first group of people are easy to deal with. A quick run-down or tutorial before a more tricky area or encounter fixes everything. The second group of people can be more disruptive to your dungeon run. Bottom line is, if you are having trouble with PUGs and worry they will stuff things up for you, give them a quick tutorial. Their actions to your tutorial rapidly separates the wheat from the chaff and you'll find out very quickly what sort of PUG you're dealing with.

#3 turbo234

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:33 AM

I haven't been a fan of the dungeons because I miss the trinity, or at least the presence of it. There isn't any real teamwork required to do well, it's just spec dps, throw up walls, and speed through.

#4 DonZardeone

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:54 PM

I don't like having to rely on other people. Dungeons should scale down based on party members and then I can solo it.

I quit for 7 months and haven't done any dungeons since I came back, so maybe things are better now.
I remember AC had this boss named Kohler and pugs and some guild people, especially new guild people, they wanted to skip kohler. I never skipped kohler.

I don't want to have to do human resources management. We'd wipe at Kohler. I would be standing because I blocked or dodged and the others would be dead. Then some guy would go "omg this such a waste of time" and another goes "omg what a bunch of idiots" and I'd have to kick people, get new ones, do it properly.

Everyone is a goddamn expert and 100% sure of themselves and this is the way they need to do it because they "ALWAYS do it like that." We appointed dungeon officers to do the human resources for it but they ended up making their own guild for dungeons and left us.

So this all leads me to see dungeons as a place where:
- You need to go and fail a lot with pugs until you find a number of people who don't suck but thent hey end up quitting or not running that dungeon anymore.
- You need to learn encounters, where to stand
- ... if you choose to be that guy, teach people how to do dungeons then get ignored when they get their own groups and don't want to join your training party anymore

That's a large part frustration and facepalming to get to a small part fun and reward.

Maybe my rant is anachronistic and stuff changed now.
I hear a lot about the DPS stuff and rangers being in short range. Those were some of my concerns back then. People didn't do enough damage, didn't dodge and were ranging too much and they still died. "Omg don equip a bow, what a noob" I'm a warrior, I smash stuff.

Maybe it's better now

#5 I'm Squirrel

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 03:22 PM

because they're UGLY and poorly developed

#6 Nikephoros

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 04:39 PM

The title of this post and the content don't match.  title is about dungeons, post is about pugs.  So what is it.

#7 Desild

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 05:08 PM

View PostNikephoros, on 07 October 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

The title of this post and the content don't match.  title is about dungeons, post is about pugs.  So what is it.

One cannot exist without the other. Am I right?

I usually run Arah casually (or as much casual you can run Arah) when I want some sort of rush, because nowadays I've done dungeons so many times they come almost by instinct. If only instead of retiring dungeons after 2 weeks ArenaNet had released more fully realized dungeons.

Twilight Assault doesn't count. Or Stand Up Comedy Show with Twilight Sparkle Scarlet Briar as I like to call it.

#8 DarkGhostGizmoXx

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 06:41 PM

As someone who just did their first dungeon (AC), I kinda like them.
I found a few dungeon builds, upgraded my armour, and read the wiki article on the dungeon.
I did story mode first, and my pug completed it in about 40 mins.
Then I did AC p1 with another pug and it took us over 2 hours, because we all kept dying and failing at one point. We did it in the end, though, and it was really fun.
I did AC p3 with yet another pug, did it in under 30 mins.

They seem fun, but I wish there were more people willing the help others learn, rather than demanding 'lvl 80 experienced, no noobs' all the time. Just because someone's a noob doesn't mean they aren't trying. I can't really memorise the whole dungoen pathway, and my rough notes on the desk can only help me so much. A shoutout saying 'traps ahead' or something similar would really help a lot.

But overall, I like them - and well done to Anet for creating a lfg tool that actually works well!

#9 turtledragon

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 06:56 PM

View PostDarkGhostGizmoXx, on 07 October 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

As someone who just did their first dungeon (AC), I kinda like them.
I found a few dungeon builds, upgraded my armour, and read the wiki article on the dungeon.
I did story mode first, and my pug completed it in about 40 mins.
Then I did AC p1 with another pug and it took us over 2 hours, because we all kept dying and failing at one point. We did it in the end, though, and it was really fun.
I did AC p3 with yet another pug, did it in under 30 mins.

They seem fun, but I wish there were more people willing the help others learn, rather than demanding 'lvl 80 experienced, no noobs' all the time. Just because someone's a noob doesn't mean they aren't trying. I can't really memorise the whole dungoen pathway, and my rough notes on the desk can only help me so much. A shoutout saying 'traps ahead' or something similar would really help a lot.

But overall, I like them - and well done to Anet for creating a lfg tool that actually works well!
The thing is, most people aren't like you. They won't read the wiki, come in blind and expect to get carried throughout the entire dungeon. That is why people generally do not like grouping with newbies.

#10 Cube

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:06 PM

I used to do dungeons 24/7, I've done all of them. I've got to say I personally do not find dungeons very fun because there's not much team play because of the lack of trinity. You don't need to rely on anyone doing their job good, lol, you don't need to rely on your team mates having a brain to shut down/heal/do their job efficiently. You just need to make sure everyone's running berserker and can dodge cause one shot mechanics are challenging(sarcasm).

I'd love for dungeons to have bigger parties and more team play and actually epic bosses but tbh that would require to change the whole game :P Agree with OP, for the same reasons I don't like taking new players. It's not because they are new but because some of them are just dumb... The kind of dumb where teaching them how to do the simplest thing is tedious. I have the worst luck.

Edited by Cube, 07 October 2013 - 07:13 PM.


#11 raspberry jam

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:26 PM

View PostDonZardeone, on 07 October 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Maybe it's better now
Not much better... If at all.

#12 Hex65000

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:41 PM

Dungeons are okay overall in terms of structure, however there are some things that do make me a little crazy...

- Abusive crowd control mechanics. My easiest example is in the revised Ascalonian Catacombs. Dodging isn't necessarily the issue. The need to dodge massive balls of knockdown heavy gravelings is. Because in many cases, if you are down, you are as good as dead because everyone is...

- Mobskipping half the dungeon. There are what I would call a 'practical mobskip' in that doing a full clear is going to consume the next 30-45 minutes of your life for minimal rewards and there are multiple large swaths of these mobs. I view that there is a balance between time spent just clearing cursory 'trash' mobs (which I think is a silly term since a 1 on 1 v/s a silver can ruin your day.) and just skipping to skip stuff to shave 10 minutes off the run. One of the guilds I do dungeon runs with nukes a majority of the monsters in a dungeon path. It's a lot less stressful to just walk back in the event of a wipe v/s having to run by the same deadly ball over and over again. Sure it'd be great to not wipe, but it happens. Sometimes mistakes are made, why aggravate the frustration of the wipe. I've seen players get even more irritable after a wipe if they fail a mobskip right afterwards, and of course now you've lost even more of the time you were trying to save from the skip itself.

- No/low reaction time insta-kills. Lupicus springs to mind on this because he does some odd things in relation to a typical boss mob. Dodge the red rings? but still die from other random bouncy thing. And there is also his death bubble that intuitively you want to dodge out of, and will likely have problems as soon as you do that. There's a ring that appears, but you almost have to predict that it'll be there to successfully dodge.

Conversely, Kohler I view as a decent challenging bossfight. You can see the telegraph of the pull. You have a mild shot at dodging away if you got pulled before you die a horrible death. He does hit like a truck though. There is no real feeling of a cheap shot if you get downed. The pull is fairly clear, you can get away if you are careful, and he hits hard enough that facetanking him for any real period of time is a bad plan.

- Odd waypoint locations. Arah is again the big offender in that there are some waypoints that if you wipe will require you to run a good distance to get back to where you were. Again, if you skipped a bunch of nasty stuff previously, hopefully you can skip that ball of death a second time without incident.

That's about all I can fault the game with. I was among the cranky who disliked the out of combat respawn requirement, but I've learned to at least put up with it. The issues with PUGs are varied but patience -- at least in chat -- is the best you can do with an inexperienced group.

My best story was a run of COF1. Three players -- all very new to the path had to be borderline hand held through it in terms of what to do. We did succeed eventually, but while I did want to rage and leave the party I kept it civil and was as explicit as possible in terms of what they needed to do. I made them call out which brazier they were standing by. I suggested conditions that would offset the crummy overall damage output of the group when we fought the effigy. (IE: keep him poisoned so we weren't fighting his regeneration buff the whole time.) If you are one of those who farmed CoF all day long, you'd think that these things were insane. They were, but at least these guys mostly exhibited a desire to listen and read the chat box. Experience will come to them in time. They already did the hard part of being smart enough to ask questions.

I think that's one of the two main issues with a pug. Some don't know what they are doing and just hope to fake it enough that they will get through and succeed. Perhaps that's because nobody want's a n00b in their group. The problem is that when players don't do what you expect and you have to reset / reel them in to get everyone's head screwed on so you can do a fight properly.

The other critical issue is players who just don't read the chat box. or have decided that they are more correct and it turns into a cluster on a different level. I can relate to not reading the chat box when I'm in the middle of combat. Text from my teammates isn't my priority if Kohler is in my grill. But even I look down occasionally and notice the blue party text which may be important in terms of who is doing what.

To me, I'll take 5 smooth reasonably organized runs over 10 clusters in the same time interval. I'd make less money / stuff, but I'm happier overall in the end.

Hex.
[ Is a frickin' psychopath when it comes to PVE. Dead mobs are the easiest to skip. ]

#13 Featherman

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:54 PM

Dungeons take the flaws of the combat system- bad hit mechanics, poor telegraphing, lack of class interdependence and balancing- and then push those flaws to the extreme. I'm not sure if I speak for anyone else, but I couldn't stand them. The one set "dungeons" that I did enjoy was Fractals, but only becaise it sidestepped the issues with the combat system (aside from balancing) by adding in different objectives. The level design of those dungeons weren't too bad either.

#14 kalendraf

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:58 PM

At first, I disliked the dungeons in GW1.  Eventually I did all 18 of them, and eventually I found a few that I began to enjoy replaying.  While some dungeon boss fights in GW1 could be longer than a typical fight, most of the bosses didn't seem to have such absurdly high armor and health as they do in GW2.

With 8 dungeons and 3 to 4 paths each, the number of total dungeon paths in GW2 is even higher than GW1.  I've yet to try all of them, but so far I've not found any that I really like. One of the main things I dislike is the fact that most dungeon boss encounters devolve into boring episodes of watching how slowly the boss's health bar moves.  To be fair, this is a problem in other content areas besides dungeons, but the issues seems to be magnified in dungeons since nearly every intermediate and final battle seems to work this way.  The main difference is which OP/non-player skills each boss has access too.

There are a few dungeon segments that I do like.  For example, the traps in AC Path 2 at least offers a different method for eliminating enemies including the graveling patriarch.  But the other main boss fights along the path (spider queen, kholer, ghost eater) usually boil down to the party whittling the boss's huge health bar down slowly over a long, protracted fight.  These boss battles badly need more variety, not in the form of special OP boss skills, but in the form of other options for players to overcome the encounters.  Another example of an encounter I like is SE story mode's final boss.  In that battle, the party can't engage the boss directly, and it needs to utilize some tricks instead.  To me, that's a lot more fun than the long, drawn out battles watching a boss's health bar slowly drop.

Edited by kalendraf, 07 October 2013 - 09:00 PM.


#15 Desert Rose

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:10 PM

What I dislike and is true for every MMO I've played so far is that dungeons/instances are always static; if you have figured out once how to finish a dungeon/instance you can do it over and over without having to think about or adept anymore.
I can't understand why so far not a single developer has simply put placeholders (like small group, average group, big group, boss group) into their dungeons/instances and then place one randomly out of 10 or so; that would make them so much more interesting to play.

#16 raspberry jam

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:36 PM

View PostDesert Rose, on 07 October 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

What I dislike and is true for every MMO I've played so far is that dungeons/instances are always static; if you have figured out once how to finish a dungeon/instance you can do it over and over without having to think about or adept anymore.
I can't understand why so far not a single developer has simply put placeholders (like small group, average group, big group, boss group) into their dungeons/instances and then place one randomly out of 10 or so; that would make them so much more interesting to play.
Because making dungeons where you basically have to know what happens at each part means that players will have to dedicate themselves to learning the dungeon, which takes time, and the amount of time that is wasted on such things is a metric of quality for RPGs and especially MMOs. It just makes people feel hardcore that they spent the 20 hours (or however long) required to learn a dungeon run to perfection.

I agree that it would be more interesting to play, though.

Edited by raspberry jam, 07 October 2013 - 09:36 PM.


#17 kalendraf

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:22 PM

View PostDesert Rose, on 07 October 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

What I dislike and is true for every MMO I've played so far is that dungeons/instances are always static; if you have figured out once how to finish a dungeon/instance you can do it over and over without having to think about or adept anymore.
I can't understand why so far not a single developer has simply put placeholders (like small group, average group, big group, boss group) into their dungeons/instances and then place one randomly out of 10 or so; that would make them so much more interesting to play.
GW2 does have some randomness in the dungeons.  For example, there's the Troll spawn within AC.  However, given the cutscenes for the dungeons (story and explore), it's difficult for them add too much randomness to the main encounters.  This is obviously a limitation imposed by the cutscenes, and if they ever overhaul the dungeons, perhaps those cutscenes will need to be removed.

Looking back, I did enjoy the random dungeon aspect of Diablo, Diablo 2 and even older games like Rogue, Hack or Nethack that were text-based predecessors of the concept.  I'm not sure how easy that would translate in GW2, but it would be interesting to see something a bit more random in at least one dungeon.  Perhaps the future Thaumanova Reactor fractal could be more random, or at least more unpredictable.

Edited by kalendraf, 07 October 2013 - 11:24 PM.


#18 Alex Dimitri

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:11 AM

I dont like GW2 dungeons because there is nothing worthwhile in them, once you go trough them what exactly is the reason to go back ?
GW2 dungeons are just like story quests unimaginative poorly done and utterly unrewarding, once you seen them you don`t want to see them again !
But then again Anet kicked out trinity (holy) and made all DPS all the way, everywhere so i guess dungeons are reflection of that too !!!

#19 Galphar

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:12 AM

I don't like the dungeons because they remind me of WoW raids/dungeons. I'd love to see GW2 "Missions" instead of dungeons. Missions would go along with the story-line just like they did in GW. We could still have the 4 paths per Mission with the P1 being story-mode and each path up from 1 gets harder and harder, not just more Health and hitting harder but better/different mechanics also.

#20 Zabrielx

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:31 AM

WP states it the best when he said that Arena Net before launch had planed to make every dungeon path unique by having multiple events that would happen by chance so that players would have a different dungeon experience every time a players went to the dungeon. This design fell short as their "special events or chance events" were simply cave troll appearing every now and then or just bonus events that the majority of dungeon runners just skip. Its sad that GW2 dungeons are just bad. WP also states that if they go back to that idea on making the dungeons have a different experience for each party doing the dungeon and just implement it right, then dungeons can become appealing.

In my opinion, dungeons just fall short in guild wars 2. The majority of Dungeon runners don't feel compelled to go back to some of these dungeons even with their gold rewards. They just do the dungeons that they like or find it easy to do( cof for ex).

#21 Arcade Fire

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 05:11 AM

I don't think dungeons are interesting or rewarding enough currently. Not enough to warrant NOT skipping a certain boss/fight and actually doing it. I feel the same way for fractals. I have guardian with 42 fotm but it's not worth investing the time and effort anymore.

I like GW2 and I think it's way better than WoW but WoW dungeons had a bigger/better incentive to actually go do them. They could really do with changing a ton of loot stuff around the game.

The same goes for PvP imo but that's a different story.

#22 Satenia

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:20 AM

Having done every dungeon/path, there are just a few I still consider for regular replay these days:
  • CoF p1 and 2, cause it's fast, beginner-friendly and the tokens can be traded for berserker stats equipment.
  • AC p1 and 3, cause a lot of battles can be skipped, therefore shortening the dungeon length. Also, I happen to like the weapon skins obtained through tokens.
  • CM any path, I actually enjoy playing this one. Nice location, some tactical elements with positioning/pulling, some skills actually matter more than others... and the heavy armor obtained through tokens is just pretty.
From this already short list, there is really just one dungeon I actually play cause of the dungeon itself. The others just happen to be convenient and can be played with PUGs relatively well without causing me a headache.

On the matter of PUGs, they do indeed play a part in whether I like a dungeon or not. Coming from GW1, I'm used to having my heroes (AI-NPCs) around, means I could play a dungeon completely according to my schedule, I had no rage-quitters and honestly - they just played better than the average PUG in GW2 (and that wasn't cause they had good AI, on the contrary). With that in mind, there are some dungeons I simply won't be playing cause they have too big of a chance of failure with a PUG.


View PostDarkGhostGizmoXx, on 07 October 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

They seem fun, but I wish there were more people willing the help others learn, rather than demanding 'lvl 80 experienced, no noobs' all the time. Just because someone's a noob doesn't mean they aren't trying.

First of all, I would like to compliment you on your approach to learning dungeons, I wish more people had this kind of willingness to become better at the game.

Personally, I have played AC for the first time a couple of days into game release. As you can imagine, by now that number has increased by a lot more. At this point, I simply play it for the rewards, not because I happen to like the scenery. Having to explain the path to a newbie every other run is getting old by now as well. Therefore, I believe that players with roughly the same level of experience/skill should be playing together. Unfortunately, the current lfg-system doesn't really offer filtering options, so posting stuff like "experienced only" is the only way you can somewhat ensure a group of similar skill (though it's likely still off by a fair margin). Don't hold it against those players, if anything, blame the lfg-system and its lack of options instead.

#23 Conkers

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:41 PM

On the plus side I like that there are no addons, so none of this bossmod rubbish, or addons telling you when your HP is low, etc, basically playing the game for you.

On the other hand they didn't really replace the unholy trinity, just got rid of tanks/heals, to leave DPS with a side serving of support, which makes for less teamwork.

But more importantly they didn't really solve the real issues with dungeons:

1 - They are fun the first couple of times, then become very tedious. (paths don't solve that)

2 - They are still basically just a complex version of "Simon Says" that rely on gimmicky mechanics to try and introduce difficulty, because they can't seem to write decent AI.

3 - The PvE playerbase, is beyond terrible (it used to be better) in regard to dungeons, in that there are way too many who "play" these games as a thinly veiled Skinner Box and are only concerned with pathetic "rewards", rather than gameplay, challenge (this is in fact seen as a hindrance by these noobs), interaction, etc. To the point where people have the expectation that players should read guides or be led through by the nose by someone who has done the instance before, rather than work out how to beat the dungeon themselves, something (problem solving) which is a basic premise of video games, and is a major reason as to why the MMO sector is so stagnant.

Edited by Conkers, 08 October 2013 - 12:51 PM.


#24 Swoopeh

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:28 PM

I still enjoy most of them as I don't tend to run them that often and when I do it's with people I have known for years and we're on Mumble taking the piss and having a laugh (most of the time anyway). They can also be used as a benchmark to improve your timing and dps which can be fun as well. I also think they're better laid out than WoW dungeons, which just turned into hallways with loot pinatas. At least GW2's dungeons are pretty big and have branching pathways, making it feel more immersive.

Balancing a dungeon in any MMO is always difficult though;
In one extreme there is a short simple dungeon that you can pretty much AFK though. No real learning curve and easy to run with PUGs with a minimum of frustration. Can't give you too much reward as it's only a short time investment. They get boring rather fast and there's no real reason for running them more than once.
In the other extreme there's the hugely difficult dungeon with a long learning curve and a few tricks you can pull. Rewards are high but it's hell to run in PUGs because a lot of people are brain dead and don't understand even the simplest of mechanics and are an exercise in getting extremely frustrated.

The latter type is better for the game as it takes people longer to complete the content and it's more interesting as well for players but they need to be balanced in a way that they're difficult and still PUG friendly, two things that just don't really go together.

The problem I find with GW2's dungeons is that the difficulty is artificial, forcing people to almost exploit fights to get through. Damage sponge bosses, one-shotting ranged mobs, missing and/or really fast telegraphs (I'm not bad but I don't have godlike reflexes), knockdowns that go on for way too long, spell effects that still obscure the entire screen, inaccurate red circles and finicky puzzles all need to be learned how to work around and tend to be frustrating until you know how.

In the end though, something that leads to more frustration than anything is being dependent on the skill of your team mates who then fail spectacularly. Too often have I been in dungeons and raids where half the people played incredibly well but the rest was mediocre and 2 were just terrible without any sign of improvement; these people often either caused wipes by doing stupid things over and over again. Or their lack of performance caused us to not be able to get any hard mode fight down. After a while you just give up; no matter how well you play you just can't make up for stupid. This is MUCH less apparent in GW2 and I happily trade in some interesting gameplay if that means I can be a bit more self-sufficient.

Edited by Swoopeh, 08 October 2013 - 01:35 PM.


#25 lostwingman

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 05:36 PM

Personally, I think the name "Explorable" is misleading. These aren't explore paths, they're Epilogue Stories. They really should be renamed as such because that's what they are.
Then they can make an ACTUAL Explore Path that are huge dungeon crawls. Have them take place outside of any time continuity too.

#26 Gerend1

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:00 PM

I thought they were bad too, then I watched this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S50wszNXTG4

#27 ExplosivePinata

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 02:50 AM

I could sit here and tell you why GW1 dungeons were better but it's just my HO.

I couldn't wait for the Zaishen when a dungeon was up and could party with Guildies to do one (after doing so on my heroes). In this game that option is removed.

I just have no interest in the dungeons in this game. Damage sponges = I'd rather farm plants and ore.

Edited by ExplosivePinata, 13 October 2013 - 03:13 AM.






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