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X-Post Chris Whiteside on "Collaborative Development"


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#1 Featherman

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:40 AM

From the official forums.

Quote

Hi All,

I would like to thank everyone for their support toward the pioneering work we are doing, as we drive the world of Tyria forward.
The passion, and intelligence that our community devotes to making this game great is both humbling and essential.

Regarding our process in terms of forum usage as a development tool:

The reality is we do read our forums, and others, every single day. If you look over the last year, and cross reference with community feedback you will see many ideas actioned and many more not.

The communication pipeline in most part lacks one very important component. Specifically, ArenaNet having more time to feedback on your ideas, concerns and our own plans.

I am not one for excuses, but I do believe in being black and white. ArenaNet has been extremely busy of late listening to you all, evolving systems, providing ground breaking content, delivering adventures at a near real time pace, and tackling some very exciting problems.

We have, with your support, created a truly unique platform. One which is in its infancy, and one we build with the continued support, and collaboration of the community.

We do need to build out more time to be in dialog with you, specifically, following up on our own investigations of your suggestions and concerns.
We will work harder to achieves this.

We are also trying to forge a truly ‘Living World’. Therefore with your continued support, and patience we can continue to break new ground. Not just with world of Tyria, but with the method by which we build worlds ‘together’.

All of this said, I wanted to make it clear that whilst we avidly read our forums, we pay little, to no, attention to posts that are disrespectful to other members of our community or our development team. Our developers work very hard to listen to the community, and work tirelessly to create content and features that they hope the community will love. Likewise, the constructive members of our community work hard to provide our development team with feedback that abides with our collaborative standards and overall community philosophy of having a productive, welcoming, and friendly culture. This is a true partnership.

Our goal with Guild Wars 2 is to drive the creation of online worlds forward, thereby creating original, ‘stand-out’ content that pushes the boundaries of what it means to journey through a Living World. Any endeavor on this scale is going to have its challenges, and therefore as a team, we are fully prepared to make mistakes, learn from them, and make even better experiences as we move forward. We see problems not as failures but as opportunities, essentially a necessary part of Tyria’s and our Team’s evolution. It is with this understanding that we work with our community to move forward in the space and truly realize great things.

One key to understanding our philosophy to building worlds is that we don’t give more attention to feedback simply because it is the noisiest, most aggressive, or delivered in the most inflammatory way. We take on board all constructive feedback and actively discuss it, and then make a decision to backlog the item or move forward with it (the development of which can sometimes take longer than some give it credit for). Therefore do not expect feedback to be implemented just because it is something you feel very strongly about. We just don’t develop like that. We instead work with our community to help us navigate these uncharted waters, taking on board all advice and measuring them against the pillars of the Guild Wars 2 and the direction we ultimately want to move in as a whole.

Therefore you have to ask yourself: Is this a journey you want to take? Are you comfortable with expecting the unexpected, and ultimately working together in a positive and productive manner through thick and thin, to pioneer in a space that the team at ArenaNet feel is of huge importance? Many of you are not only comfortable with this paradigm but embrace it, and your contribution, as you know has already shaped Tyria immensely, for which we are extremely grateful and excited about.

Regardless of whether you wish to collaborate in the spirit outlined above or not, I ask that you remain respectful to your fellow man/woman, and be constructive in your approach to the development of the game, and understand Tyria is made up of communities and not individuals.

So thank you all so much for your support, passion and collaboration, and please understand that Arena is an amazing team with an amazing community. And together we build worlds!

Chris W

A bit of context: The official forums have been common source of player criticism and suggestions to improve the game, more so recently due to the addition of ascended weapons. There are, of course, players who defend the decisions made with the game as well. The inevitable debates between these two camps often devolve into highly toxic arguments that lose constructive value.

While I think the content of Whiteside's post (a lot of his public statements in fact like the IGN interview) have about as much substance and credibility as GW2's manifesto, it's a quite development for him to start a thread on the subject.

Edited by Featherman, 09 October 2013 - 02:55 AM.


#2 Arewn

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:57 AM

Since (and even before) the release of GW2, Arena Net has demonstrated time and time again that they do in fact listen and respond to the player base. However the player base doesn't all want the same thing, quiet the contrary in fact, different sub-sets of the player base often have conflicting desires which inevitably leads to some sub-groups not having their desires addressed and lashing out as a result.

As the OP mentioned, Whiteside's post is quiet long for having so little substance, but I'm surprised he'd give the time of day to address such an issue at all.

TL;DR for both my post, and Whiteside's: you can't please everybody.

#3 Featherman

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 03:38 AM

View PostArewn, on 09 October 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

Since (and even before) the release of GW2, Arena Net has demonstrated time and time again that they do in fact listen and respond to the player base. However the player base doesn't all want the same thing, quiet the contrary in fact, different sub-sets of the player base often have conflicting desires which inevitably leads to some sub-groups not having their desires addressed and lashing out as a result.

As the OP mentioned, Whiteside's post is quiet long for having so little substance, but I'm surprised he'd give the time of day to address such an issue at all.

TL;DR for both my post, and Whiteside's: you can't please everybody.
Historically speaking, ANet has responded more often when the opinions of the playerbase would be in their favor. For instance, there were large number of dev post before release when the game's hype was at its highest, and the number of posts dropped significantly afterwards when ANet started doing things that could be construed as conflicting to their previous statements. The dishonesty that many have interpreted from this may have ruined the apparent transparency that ANet demonstrated before launch.

And ANet cared enough to let Whiteside make that post, that much is true. A bit of PR can go a long way for the amount of effort needed and can be vague enough for them to not go through with their words. Speaking of effort, I remember seeing fragments of this post elsewhere.

#4 Arewn

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:38 AM

View PostFeatherman, on 09 October 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

Historically speaking, ANet has responded more often when the opinions of the playerbase would be in their favor. For instance, there were large number of dev post before release when the game's hype was at its highest, and the number of posts dropped significantly afterwards when ANet started doing things that could be construed as conflicting to their previous statements. The dishonesty that many have interpreted from this may have ruined the apparent transparency that ANet demonstrated before launch.

And ANet cared enough to let Whiteside make that post, that much is true. A bit of PR can go a long way for the amount of effort needed and can be vague enough for them to not go through with their words. Speaking of effort, I remember seeing fragments of this post elsewhere.
Hype being at it's highest could mean more posts all around, and as such a greater call for more responses from the dev. Large amounts of hype surrounding the game is a call for dev responses in and of itself(addressing the rumors and whatnot). There are many factors that can influence dev post frequency.
Correlation =/ causation and all that jazz.
I agree that PR can go a long way and is generally worth the effort. An apparently small effort in this case, since he simply copied his previous post and added to it though xD

#5 Desild

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 09:09 AM

Maybe they finaly realised that a broken fan base is not a stable ground for developing a budding MMO and are trying to do damage control. Mister Whiteside puts it in better words: "being black and white".

I'm an ideallistic Black Knight fighting a war against the truthful White Knights, for something called perspective. The perspective of others. If i can change their perspective, I can change the world. So being threatened that being vocal, aggressive and adamant of my believes is not the way to go about to make things "right", well, I beg to differ. I'll continue to be aggressive towards ArenaNet, skeptical, vocal and adamant, mostly because at no point they were ever the target of my frustations. All my wit and snarkiness is best employed on my fellow members of the community, the people I interact with on a daily baisis, rather than facelesss stagehands that control the stage in which this struggle takes place. Even if they don't always agree with me, I try my best to bridge my discontempt with the contentation of others, except when it borders on sheer zealotry. I hate zealots, and they will earn no respect from me.

ArenaNet may continue to exalt our communities' zealots, as I will continue doing my thing (at least until I blunder enough times to my make community contract void, which will happen eventually). Because any line of communication between the developers and the community, has for long since been broken. Telling me otherwise, is also sheer zealotry.

#6 Butcher

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:23 AM

My favorite quote:

Quote

One key to understanding our philosophy to building worlds is that we don’t give more attention to feedback simply because it is the noisiest, most aggressive, or delivered in the most inflammatory way.

If you were an avid WoW player, such as myself, then this quote should resound in your heart with the fury of a tornado filled with angry cats. Because if you'll notice, Blizzard did the EXACT OPPOSITE of this. ~8,000,000 people cried for Pandaren, and when they were implemented, WoW lost over 3,000,000 subscribers...almost instantly.

Let's at least be glad ANet gets something. But let's not jump to conclusions and assume they're stubborn and won't listen to GOOD ideas.

#7 El Duderino

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:50 PM

I actually threw up a little in my mouth when I read this. This might be the biggest bunch of rubbish they have put out in the name of "PR".

My question is, what ever happened to Gaile Gray? What happened to guys like Ensign?

They know how to communicate with their player base, they choose not to. I made a post about this before, but it is clear that there are no ambassadors for the players. There is no communication between the players and the developers. And it has gotten much worse since release.

The developers can keep saying that they are working with us or want to work with us - but until they actually decide to do that - it is all a bunch of the same typical lies that we continue to see from this company.

#8 aquastorm

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:06 PM

I read this on the official forums (that I'm banned from because they ban people that aren't glowingly positive about the game) so I came here to post my thoughts.  This all sounds to me like a knee jerk reaction to a realization by the dev team that their game is failing for the exact reasons that caused so many people to complain on the forums.  

They don't respect their community and never have.  I was harassed and "infracted" on their forums anytime I posted anything at all until they ban me.  I know they've done the same thing to many others.  It's like they were trying to create this farce of a utopia on their forums where everyone loved everything about the game.  I'm not really sure what the problem is at ArenaNet but it seems that either one person that has way too much control is running the show or the majority of the dev team with the power all have the same failing vision for this game.  

The whole thread he created is very unprofessional and again feels like another slap in the face to the consumers that paid money for their game.  ArenaNet acts like we owe them something for creating this game when in fact it's the other way around.  They seem to have no respect for their players (consumers).

#9 El Duderino

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:09 PM

Speaking of which, did they just recopy this and add a little fluff?

source: http://www.guildwars...fficial-forums/

Quote

Hi All,

I would like to thank everyone for their support toward the pioneering work we are doing as we drive the world of Tyria forward.

The passion, and intelligence that our community devotes to making this game better is both both humbling and essential.

The reality is we do read our forums, and others, every single day. If you look over the last year, and cross reference with community feedback you will see many ideas action-ed and many more not.

The communication pipeline in most part lacks one very important component. Specifically, Arena having more time to feedback on your ideas, concerns and our own plans.

I am not one for excuses, but i do believe in being black white. Arena has been extremely busy of late listening to you all, evolving systems, providing ground breaking content, delivering adventures at a near Real Time pace, and tackling some very exciting problems.

We have, with your support, created a truly pioneering platform. One which is in its infancy, and one we build with the continued support, and collaboration of the community.

We do need to build out more time to be in dialog with you, specifically, following up on our own investigations of your suggestions and concerns.

We will achieve this.

We are also trying to forge a truly ‘Living World’. Therefore with your continued support, and patience we can continue to pioneer. Not just with world of Tyria, but with the method by which ‘We build Worlds together’.

Thank you all so much for your support, passion and collaboration, and please understand that Arena is an amazing team with an amazing community. And together everything is possible!

Chris W


#10 MazingerZ

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:19 PM

View PostButcher, on 09 October 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

My favorite quote:

If you were an avid WoW player, such as myself, then this quote should resound in your heart with the fury of a tornado filled with angry cats. Because if you'll notice, Blizzard did the EXACT OPPOSITE of this. ~8,000,000 people cried for Pandaren, and when they were implemented, WoW lost over 3,000,000 subscribers...almost instantly.

Let's at least be glad ANet gets something. But let's not jump to conclusions and assume they're stubborn and won't listen to GOOD ideas.

A lot of that was in China, where China has its own budding internal MMO industry.  The Chinese are a highly nationalistic culture and with the release of games like Age of Wushu, they're more likely to play those types of games because they really speak to the culture.  They hadn't even gotten Pandaria at that point.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#11 MazingerZ

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:26 PM

All I can say is this is hilarious.

They speak to the player-base like they're recalcitrant children.  "I'm not going to listen to that tone of voice."  That's something a parent says to a child when they want them to behave in a particular way.

ArenaNet, you're not my mom and I am not your kid.  I am a potential customer.  Talking down to me because I'm angry is not something anyone does in business.  You choose to show strength by plowing on ahead, in spite of feedback, like Ghostcrawler does in WoW on occasion, and perhaps even dismiss the loudest voices; I suppose that is your decision.

But to say that you're going to ignore people based on their tone, not the validity of their points, is like saying you're going to ignore that a ship is sinking because the passengers won't stop screaming and panicking.  It makes no sense.  The ship is still taking on water.

Quote

Therefore you have to ask yourself: Is this a journey you want to take? Are you comfortable with expecting the unexpected, and ultimately working together in a positive and productive manner through thick and thin, to pioneer in a space that the team at ArenaNet feel is of huge importance? Many of you are not only comfortable with this paradigm but embrace it, and your contribution, as you know has already shaped Tyria immensely, for which we are extremely grateful and excited about.

Regardless of whether you wish to collaborate in the spirit outlined above or not, I ask that you remain respectful to your fellow man/woman, and be constructive in your approach to the development of the game, and understand Tyria is made up of communities and not individuals.

I really like how he falls just short of telling the naysayers to GTFO.  Instead, he just wants them to clam up or tow the company line.

I'll also turn to the bastion of fanboi-ism to see how well it resonates with the community, this was the top comment as of this posting:

Quote

Credit to Marumari for the interpretation:

"We haven't actively posted in months and we get mad at our devs for communicating on the forums. But I guess you're mad at us for that so here's some words to tell you we read what you say and just trust us on that, k? We got some negative PR because one of our guys is sad that we told him not to actually talk to you guys and haha, I guess you found out so now I have to do some positive PR.

Filler filler we love guild wars and living story filler filler living world is awesome filler filler Guild Wars is different and we like it and you should like it. We're so busy doing so many wonderful things filler filler.

Generic statement about nonconstructive criticism which likes to get thrown around the internet but really just means don't openly criticize anybody. We like feedback but we'll use this excuse if it's not the feedback we want to hear. Again we want to reassure you that we hear what you are saying even though we don't give indication that anyone looks at any board on these forums - do you believe us yet?

Filler filler we think guild wars is awesome filler filler.

Repeatedly bring up stuff doesn't work so stop posting about the same things over and over. We heard you the first time, seven patches ago, even though we gave no indication that we heard you because we don't like to communicate on the forums, which is probably why you bring up the same issues every patch because it seems like we're ignoring you. Not our fault you misinterpret.

In conclusion, vague statements about how you should want to love this game and trust us. I don't know what exactly I mean by "collaborate" but I've been told that's a buzz word and maybe you'll think it means all your ravings will actually have an effect and this reassurance might calm you down for a week, or at least a couple hours.

Arenanet is awesome. You guys are awesome. Awesome.

Are you guys still mad now? Did I mention how amazing you are?"

Edited by MazingerZ, 09 October 2013 - 04:32 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#12 ExplosivePinata

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:47 PM

Quote

providing ground breaking content
  Isn't this for us the players to decide? I could draw a picture of a bunny using a crayon stuck up my nose and call it ground breaking, doesn't mean it is :P

Seriously though, no wonder players are upset when they post over there after the FoV, right click targetting and percieved drop rates fiascos. It was like pulling teeth trying to get Anet to simply listen or even reply after months and thousands of posts.

Edited by ExplosivePinata, 09 October 2013 - 04:48 PM.


#13 NerfHerder

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:27 PM

This is the same PR poppy♥♥♥♥ you get everywhere, regardless of the product. Nothing new here.

Edit: since when is poppy♥♥♥♥ a bad word? pff. How about malarkey? nonsense? rubbish? flimflam? You get the drift.

Edited by NerfHerder, 09 October 2013 - 06:30 PM.


#14 Fantasy Trope

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:43 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 09 October 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

But to say that you're going to ignore people based on their tone, not the validity of their points, is like saying you're going to ignore that a ship is sinking because the passengers won't stop screaming and panicking.  It makes no sense.  The ship is still taking on water.

While Whiteside's post was vacuous (and a tactical mistake PR wise), psychology and sociology have shown us that that people are more likely to take ideas seriously when they come from people they trust and like.  Part of that trust is established by showing people respect and courtesy, often at levels they don't necessarily deserve.  We're social animals, and it takes a strong person to process feedback that is couched in an arrogant, offensive or rude attitude.

This is far from ideal, of course, but if posting in a more respectful manner is what it takes to get the ear of a developer (and I am suspicious that it would help at this stage), it's a small sacrifice in the grand scheme.

#15 MazingerZ

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:45 PM

View PostNerfHerder, on 09 October 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

This is the same PR poppy♥♥♥♥ you get everywhere, regardless of the product. Nothing new here.

Edit: since when is poppy♥♥♥♥ a bad word? pff. How about malarkey? nonsense? rubbish? flimflam? You get the drift.

I say, sir, I say!  I won't stand for your balderdash!  If you cannot conduct yourself in an appropriate manner without the use of such strong language, I will be forced to demand satisfaction, and we shall duel in the accepted practice in the town square at dawn!

View PostFantasy Trope, on 09 October 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

it takes a strong person to process feedback that is couched in an arrogant, offensive or rude attitude.

You make a good point right here.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#16 Featherman

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:49 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 09 October 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

I really like how he falls just short of telling the naysayers to GTFO.  Instead, he just wants them to clam up or tow the company line.

I wrote that part off a fluff. I mean, you can generate something that sounds exactly the same with that an online essay generator (that people use for fun). But now that you bring it up, what purpose is there in telling people who disagree with the direction of the game to GTFO? There's no point in feedback if it's coming from people who, in rhythm, nod yes to everything the company does. That's not collaboration. That's people being satisfied. People on the forums obviously aren't satisfied and there are many reasons for them not to be. Perhaps its better to address those reasons first.

I there's a sort of a chicken or the egg paradox involved in all of this, down to deepest level of design. From what little I know about game design, good design decisions are often made from properly identifying the core of the game then building from there, in other words a process that involves finding the which comes first. The way ANet's been advertising metrics without giving them proper context (crafting and rewards, for example), how their game rewards players, and the way they've been approaching criticism on the forums lead me to believe that there's somewhat a of a deficiency in this process. This is apparent in the design of the the entire game, not just with the way they're identifying issues within the community.

The premise of the game was building a dynamic world, but what ANet ended up building was a thempark like WoW and addressing some of its apparent issues. There's simply no arguing with that anymore after the recent updates. If I were to make an educated guess, I'd say that their process of design was copying WoW's general structure while making levels making crafting easy and making quests more fluid. The game might appear to be the groundbreaking and dynamic MMO ANet and its target players wanted, but that's just a veneer. Right from the beginning the core is the same as WoW.

Even now ANet still have trouble identifying and address the core of there game. WvW levels and bloodlust didn't didn't fix core issues of of WvW. In fact, they exacerbate them. Ascended doesn't make the game more engaging or dynamic, it just gives payers something to do until they inevitably get bored of the unchanging core. From the very beginning up till now ANet's advertisements of their design don't match up with reality. The fact that players are recently beginning identify issues with patches beforehand is probably cause for at least some bitterness. If this trend continues telling the naysayers to GTFO will only make things more pleasant until the next group of players inevitably realize the game's core issues and then voice their concerns.

#17 raspberry jam

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 07:21 PM

It's amazing I think, how someone can write that much text and still just end up saying "we don't listen to you if you're rude".

View PostFantasy Trope, on 09 October 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

We're social animals, and it takes a strong person to process feedback that is couched in an arrogant, offensive or rude attitude.
Thank you. :)

Personally, whenever I get a mail or a comment concerning something I have done or the like, I love it when it starts off as "WHAT THE ♥♥♥♥ ARE YOU THINKING" because hey, here's someone who really cares. Passionate people are always more pleasant than wooden ones. While I understand the value of moderation on official forums, I also understand the sometimes immense value of being able to filter out criticism (constructive or otherwise) from "disrespectfulness".

See, respect is something you earn. Do good and it will come. Passion as well; if you do good, people will be passionate about your work.
Criticism is not like that. It is always a gift that will help you improve your art. You can't earn that.

They should indeed not give more attention to noise and inflammatory posting. But they should not give it less, either. They should give it the same attention as they give everything else.

Edited by raspberry jam, 09 October 2013 - 07:21 PM.


#18 MazingerZ

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:51 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 09 October 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

snip

The other thing that rubs me the wrong way is how he's basically congratulating the people who 'embrace' the 'paradigm' for their 'contribution.'  That is propagating horrible confirmation bias.

As stated in the thread about developer harassment, they need to take a page from the Ghostcrawler book. The man gets a ton of flak on a weekly basis, some deserved, some not, and he handles it with way more grace (not necessarily humility) than ArenaNet has.  WoW's communication with its playerbase has always been fairly solid since Ghostcrawler took the reins.

As the reddit thread also discusses, LoL has one of the most toxic communities ever seen and Riot Games seems to maintain very good public relations without coming across as a bunch of white-washers.

The thread also points out how ArenaNet never planned on WvWvW being as big as it has become.  It was supposed to be a token game mode (and probably a loss leader in terms of development time vs revenue), and money is supposed to flow the eSports scene and PvE mini-pet/fashion mongers.

Ultimately, they're going to have to pull a WoW and do something to break down the barriers of WvWvW the way BGs were broken from being locked into a single server, because both population and the simple fact that people migrate up to the top tiers will demand it.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#19 Darkobra

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:39 PM

View PostExplosivePinata, on 09 October 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

I could draw a picture of a bunny using a crayon stuck up my nose and call it ground breaking...

I saw a guy that squirts paint from his eye making money. I saw a guy that keeps thousands of flies, feeds them different food colourings and makes them vomit it all over a canvas. If you draw a picture of a bunny with a crayon stuck up your nose, you'll be a very rich and famous man. It really is ground breaking and must be done!

And you'd still have more artistic integrity than ArenaNet.

#20 StormDragonZ

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:05 AM

It's like the therapist who just nods his head whenever you vent.

I think it's safe to say ANet finds it cute when we talk about what we like or dislike. You know, like a babysitter to a 7-year old.

#21 The Condor

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:05 AM

View PostDesild, on 09 October 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Maybe they finaly realised that a broken fan base is not a stable ground for developing a budding MMO and are trying to do damage control. Mister Whiteside puts it in better words: "being black and white".

I'm an ideallistic Black Knight fighting a war against the truthful White Knights, for something called perspective. The perspective of others. If i can change their perspective, I can change the world. So being threatened that being vocal, aggressive and adamant of my believes is not the way to go about to make things "right", well, I beg to differ. I'll continue to be aggressive towards ArenaNet, skeptical, vocal and adamant, mostly because at no point they were ever the target of my frustations. All my wit and snarkiness is best employed on my fellow members of the community, the people I interact with on a daily baisis, rather than facelesss stagehands that control the stage in which this struggle takes place. Even if they don't always agree with me, I try my best to bridge my discontempt with the contentation of others, except when it borders on sheer zealotry. I hate zealots, and they will earn no respect from me.

ArenaNet may continue to exalt our communities' zealots, as I will continue doing my thing (at least until I blunder enough times to my make community contract void, which will happen eventually). Because any line of communication between the developers and the community, has for long since been broken. Telling me otherwise, is also sheer zealotry.

So you're a black knight fighting the white knights, or the zealots (I'm assuming they're one in the same).  So, you're aggresive, vocal, and adamant against people who are aggresive, vocal, and adamant in their support of GW2.  Guess what?  You're a zealot too.  You've become the very thing you hate, just on the other side of the aisle.  But let me guess, what you're doing is okay because you're the one doing it.

Basically, you're raging against ragers, and then saying you hate ragers.  It's like a southern feud.

While you're trying to change their perspective, they're trying to change yours.  And what's that about changing the world?  I must be missing something there because you couldn't possibly be so narcissistic to think that you're perspective about GW2 is the only correct opinion.

Let me be clear here:  I'm not defending ANet, their post, or the white knights.  I'm just calling you out on your hypocrisy.

We also shouldn't be surprised that ANet doesn't like listening to jerks, people generally don't.  You probably don't like listening to me because I'm a jerk, think of it from that perspective.  Sure, that post is nothing more than PR and doesn't address any issues, but that doesn't automatically validate your argument.  Maybe, just maybe, being reasonable and offering constructive criticism will improve the game as opposed to constantly sh*tting on the game.

Edited by The Condor, 10 October 2013 - 01:09 AM.


#22 El Duderino

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:49 AM

View PostThe Condor, on 10 October 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

We also shouldn't be surprised that ANet doesn't like listening to jerks, people generally don't.  You probably don't like listening to me because I'm a jerk, think of it from that perspective.  Sure, that post is nothing more than PR and doesn't address any issues, but that doesn't automatically validate your argument.  Maybe, just maybe, being reasonable and offering constructive criticism will improve the game as opposed to constantly sh*tting on the game.

Are the negative posts about ANet and their problems simply "jerky" for being negative? If that is the case, then ANet needs to grow a set. Seriously, I don't think the vast majority of negative posts are condescending, jerky, rude or anything else. Calling design lazy or broken or anything else doesn't mean people are being jerks.

ANet is simply aligning with the people that nod their heads yes to anything they say and putting everyone else in the "jerk" category that they don't agree with.

If you look at a lot of "negative" posts here, you will find that it is often the "white knights" that find something rude, sarcastic and condescending to say to people who have legitimate constructive criticism.

#23 MisterJaguar25

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:16 PM

View Postraspberry jam, on 09 October 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

It's amazing I think, how someone can write that much text and still just end up saying "we don't listen to you if you're rude".

Thank you. :)

Personally, whenever I get a mail or a comment concerning something I have done or the like, I love it when it starts off as "WHAT THE ♥♥♥♥ ARE YOU THINKING" because hey, here's someone who really cares. Passionate people are always more pleasant than wooden ones. While I understand the value of moderation on official forums, I also understand the sometimes immense value of being able to filter out criticism (constructive or otherwise) from "disrespectfulness".

See, respect is something you earn. Do good and it will come. Passion as well; if you do good, people will be passionate about your work.
Criticism is not like that. It is always a gift that will help you improve your art. You can't earn that.

They should indeed not give more attention to noise and inflammatory posting. But they should not give it less, either. They should give it the same attention as they give everything else.

You know when someones rude to me because they think I was being a jerk so they think I deserve it, I wont get mad at them for it. But being rude when criticizing me for my work, just because I didn't go as good a job as the person wanted, crossing the line from "passionate" to "abusive", and has the opposite effect on me, as in I then do the exact opposite of what that person wanted for the pure sake of spitting them, unless I or someone else has something to gain from listening to their "feedback".

What if I went to deviantart and looked up a bad piece of art and then responded to the artist something like this "Wow what a piece of garbage why would you draw something so terrible like that? Wow so freaking bad, learn to draw seriously". Would you say that was passionate or abusive? And I get that they shouldn't disregard their potential source of income, but seriously, they need to be making a game that THEY want to play, not cater to as many people as possible, that can ruin games. Dead Space 3 would've been a lot scarier if EA/Visceral Games weren't so set on catering to people afraid of survival horror games (despite the previous 2 being survival horror). Maybe most people don't like horror, so freaking what? Those people have so many other bloody games to play, why can't those of us who like scary games have games that cater to those desires? Seriously I have no sympathy for people who complained about dead space games being too scary.

And the guys at Anet can say "like our game for what it is or play something else" because it's their game and they want to make it for certain people, not everyone. They should be designing a game they want to play, not try to please as many people as possible, because they have no moral obligation to try to appease the majority or anyone because it's a source of entertainment not something serious. The people who don't like that can look elsewhere. It only becomes a problem when barely anyone is playing their game, and lately, I've seen crap tons of people on a regular basis on my server (each server right now is either high or very highly populated, at least when I checked a  week ago, but I don't know the server player limit), so they must be doing something right for a large amount of people.

Games should be made to be an entertaining experience, not to cater to the largest group of people to maximize profits, is what I'm saying.

Also it is pretty interesting that he clearly copypasted a lot of what he said from a previous post, but that doesn't mean he doesn't mean what he said, he could've just thought it was easier to copypaste then manually retype.

edit: I forgot to add that I mean people who want changes to the design of the game should find another game, not those who just want more options, there's nothing wrong with that.

Edited by MisterJaguar25, 10 October 2013 - 03:01 PM.


#24 Featherman

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:41 PM

This is going off topic, but Dead Space 3 was a poorly written/designed cash grab to finish off the series. The original director had left before 2 was made. I don't even think the remaining developers wanted to make it; it's not like developers in triple A always have a choice in the games they make either. The game was pandering to the audience in the worst possible way, it's just there for the sake of getting people's money. It's not unlike how GW2's ascended gear attempts to pander to its audience.

#25 El Duderino

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:20 PM

View PostMisterJaguar25, on 10 October 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

snip

I agree. They just shouldn't have called it Guild Wars 2, told everyone that people who liked Guild Wars 1 would love it - and that it would be just like GW1 but in a persistent world - and all the other marketing hype that they did to try and appeal to all those people to make them buy the game.

So, I 100% agree that developers should make games they like, not try to make it for everyone, and everyone else be damned. But, once you tell everyone that everyone will like your game because of X, Y & Z - well, I'm gonna critique your ass off if X, Y & Z don't happen.

In GW2, X, Y & Z aren't even around. The philosophies of ANet, GW2 and most mechanics in the game are pitiful at best. So, don't marketing lies to me - and I won't call you out on said lies.

It works both ways.

#26 MisterJaguar25

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:10 PM

View PostFeatherman, on 10 October 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

This is going off topic, but Dead Space 3 was a poorly written/designed cash grab to finish off the series. The original director had left before 2 was made. I don't even think the remaining developers wanted to make it; it's not like developers in triple A always have a choice in the games they make either. The game was pandering to the audience in the worst possible way, it's just there for the sake of getting people's money. It's not unlike how GW2's ascended gear attempts to pander to its audience.


Actually based on the DLC there's probably gonna be a sequel (which, from a story perspective, ruins the feel of the third games story, which ended in a way that made you think it was over, it had a good feeling of closure....which the DLC gave the middle finger) Not saying the story was good, tho, but it felt like it was written to be the end so I don't understand the DLC's point other than to make more dead space games, which I'm glad because its a good game series but the part of me that enjoyed the story is upset by it. I think it was a good action shooter game, but as a survival horror it fell flat (unlimited ammo ffs).

Also, ascended gear is optional, plus you can get gear that's almost as good as it for cheap on the BMA, so why even bother with the ridiculously long grind?

View PostEl Duderino, on 10 October 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

I agree. They just shouldn't have called it Guild Wars 2, told everyone that people who liked Guild Wars 1 would love it - and that it would be just like GW1 but in a persistent world - and all the other marketing hype that they did to try and appeal to all those people to make them buy the game.

So, I 100% agree that developers should make games they like, not try to make it for everyone, and everyone else be damned. But, once you tell everyone that everyone will like your game because of X, Y & Z - well, I'm gonna critique your ass off if X, Y & Z don't happen.

In GW2, X, Y & Z aren't even around. The philosophies of ANet, GW2 and most mechanics in the game are pitiful at best. So, don't marketing lies to me - and I won't call you out on said lies.

It works both ways.

I guess, if that really is the case, you have a point there, could've just called it something else and had a different setting with the same gameplay design. It is odd that it's called Guild Wars when there's no guild warring to be had.

Edited by MisterJaguar25, 10 October 2013 - 04:19 PM.


#27 MazingerZ

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:27 PM

View PostMisterJaguar25, on 10 October 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

I guess, if that really is the case, you have a point there, could've just called it something else and had a different setting with the same gameplay design. It is odd that it's called Guild Wars when there's no guild warring to be had.

That's the power of IP and a built-in customer base, not a title to describe the next game.

Why generate new IP and cause everyone to be leery when you're going to get your own little army of free publicists to promote it because of the success of the current IP?
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#28 El Duderino

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:33 PM

View PostMisterJaguar25, on 10 October 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

I guess, if that really is the case, you have a point there, could've just called it something else and had a different setting with the same gameplay design. It is odd that it's called Guild Wars when there's no guild warring to be had.

My disappointment stems only from my being a GW1 player. Otherwise, I couldn't really care less.

#29 Feathermoore

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 05:06 PM

Let's be wary of veering off topic. Try to keep this to Anet's interaction with the community, feedback, and response for the most part.

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#30 Alex Dimitri

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 05:27 PM

Oh dear, Mr.Whiteside never should post that......i mean really never !
First it`s copy paste mostly, if you want to make a point you don`t do it with something you already did (since that didn`t work).
Second once again he proves the point that him or anyone else for that matter from Anet doesn`t care about their customers !

If i could deliver a massage to Mr.Whiteside i would be something like this:

Dear Mr.Whiteside for my 38 years of life whenever someone has been rude, arrogant or angry to me it was not without reason, people rarely if ever start attacking you if you didn`t screwed them over !
With that in mind you should take those "hideous" & "angry" (players) seriously much more than standard kiss ass schmucks that play game every fifth day and think they posses all the knowledge (those people cannot even see flaws) .
Another thing that you persist on is "building Tyria with your community" excuse me but that is hard core lie, if you ever had common decency you would ask people (players, customers) what they would like to see in the game, instead you keep on pouring bitter half baked solutions that don`t fit lore or even expand content !
For so many years of following development and this year of playing i`m yet to hear someone screaming for something like "Living World, Living story", if you had listen to YOUR community (of players) you would easily hear:

1.Game has no "endgame" (this is essential for any MMO)
2.Game is riddled with bugs and sad optimization
3.Game is ridiculous in reward department
4.Game didn`t get any REAL expansion in over a year (small bandages on gaping wound don`t do much good, heard of stitches ?)
5.Game needs strong leadership, from person that knows whats doing (game of guessing, or youngster stubbornness is no go)

Instead of blaming vocal players (the only ones that really care for the game) concentrate on listening to them, maybe and just maybe then you would start doing something in the right direction !!!




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