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Thief Updates - 10/15/2013

thief update patch october 2013

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#1 Loperdos

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 04:52 PM

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Thief
  • Shadow Refuge: This skill now functions with the Hide in Shadows trait.
  • Shadow Pursuit: This skill now functions with the Hide in Shadows trait.
  • Blinding Powder: Stealth duration has been decreased from 5 seconds to 4 seconds when traited with Hide in Shadows. The skill remains with a base of 3 seconds. This skill is now a blast finisher.
  • Merciful Ambush: This skill now functions with the Hide in Shadows trait for the recipient of stealth.
  • Fixed an issue where some skills would remove the visual effect of stealth from the player.
  • Destroy Shadow Trap: This skill now has a 1.5-second cast time. It plays an effect on the thief and on the trap location when it is being cast. Added 5 seconds of regeneration.
  • Hide in Shadows: This skill now only increases Blinding Powder stealth by 1 second so it is consistent with the trait’s functionality.
  • Venomous Aura: Increased the venom share radius to 360.
  • Larcenous Strike: This skill now steals only 1 boon.
  • Body Shot: This skill now applies 1 second of immobilize. Reduced the number of vulnerability stacks from 10 to 5. Increased the initiative cost from 3 to 4.
  • Lotus Poison: The recharge is now set on each individual target that this trait triggers on. Reduced the recharge to 15 seconds.
  • Shadow Strike: This ability now has a distance skill fact that represents the distance retreated.
  • Withdraw and Roll for Initiative: These skills now properly remove immobilize upon execution.
  • Basilisk Venom: Petrify is now removed on stun break.

There you have it.  Some interesting changes, not really anything game breaking, earth shattering or world changing.  Max DPS GC build still stays the same.  A few nerfs here and there, few buffs, few fixes.

My thoughts...I'm not gonna lie, a bit annoyed at the change to Bodyshot.  I realize that it doesn't really effect a whole lot, but I was in the process of putting together a burst vuln stacking build that utilized that particular skill...and honestly, who the heck wants a 1s immob and increased init cost?  PvP application, sure, but PvE? Not so much.

I had heard rumors that pistols were gonna get some love (don't remember if it was this patch or a later patch) but it seems that isn't the case, at least for this patch.  We'll have to wait and see what the future holds for them.  :)

Venomshare increased radius...its nice, but it still doesn't fix the inherent problem with VS builds, IE the basically required 30 points in SA and DA, which kinda gimps your own personal DPS for some group utility.

They nerfed LS again, though I can't say I'm exactly surprised at that, but it seems to me that its another change that was caused by PvP play rather than PvE play, which is kinda disheartening, but perhaps I'm just reading into it too much.  Not that I use S/D all that often, but it was still a nice option to have for certain content.  Not that its not able to be used anymore, but I may think twice about it now.

Quote

  • All player-controlled minions, excluding mesmer phantasms and clones because they were already increased in a previous patch, now have 71.43% more hit points in PvE maps.


I wonder if this effects Thieves Guild?  That could be quite interesting if it does, giving the Thieves a bit more staying power.

Those are my thoughts about the updates, what about everyone else's?



    #2 Phenn

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    Posted 15 October 2013 - 06:33 PM

    Not a whole lot to add other than ANet seems to have an agenda against P/P. The update was a nerf, and nowhere near a buff.

    They REALLY need to stop balancing the game around PvP.

    #3 Lucav

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    Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:09 PM

    it doesnt make sense to me, they split skills between pve and pvp on numerous occasions, now they make huge changes to s/d for pvp reasons and they dont split. I guess I get to steal three boons from dredge instead of six in exchange for my entire initiative bar.

    #4 Thorfinnr

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    Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:22 PM

    View PostLoperdos, on 15 October 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

    They nerfed LS again, though I can't say I'm exactly surprised at that, but it seems to me that its another change that was caused by PvP play rather than PvE play, which is kinda disheartening, but perhaps I'm just reading into it too much.  Not that I use S/D all that often, but it was still a nice option to have for certain content.  Not that its not able to be used anymore, but I may think twice about it now.

    And I would bet they took away a boon steal from LS and STILL did not fix the mob tracking on the evade of Flanking Strike.

    The catering to PvP needs to stop...split the functionality like GW1 and quit screwing up my PvE for PvPers who want to whine because they can't handle good Thief players.

    #5 Y A J U U

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    Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:45 PM

    I have returned to the game very recently, after about 5 or 6 months, and I had been working on a P/D | SB build just because i find it to be a lot of fun, the body shot change is extremely annoying.

    I wish they would separate the PVE & PVP skills like they did in GW1. Not a particularly great first week back, it still feels like for PvE to be at its best specific builds are all people look for an its annoying, especially the elitist crowds I know of, if you want to do anything out of the normal your looked at like a retard.

    Pretty much this: Options you cant use = frustrating, variety/team synergy they promised before launch still non-existant

    Edited by Y A J U U, 16 October 2013 - 02:05 AM.


    #6 Dahk

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    Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:49 PM

    Eh, I pretty much never used body shot before, so I don't see this as really being that bad (although it sucks for people that did like it).  I does, however, seem like a decent quality of life buff for solo leveling or running around since the weapon had almost nothing to keep distance from mobs.

    However, personally, I would have preferred to see a mobility ability added, such as a dodge shot or a stealth shot.  An immobilize shot just seems like they ripped off the net shot from the engineer rifle.

    #7 Chase

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    Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:11 PM

    If they're gonna balance weapon skills based on PvP, I say they balance PvE monster health based on PvP as well.

    Though I honestly can't complain as I spend time in all three game types fairly often enough. The P/P changes have actually allowed me to make a very trollish build in WvW ;)

    #8 Minion

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    Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:14 PM

    Body Shot was always bad, come now. Wasting all your initiative to maintain that low-duration vulnerability? No. Better it be useful in one game mode than none. Besides, people who main hand pistols in PvE are bad and they should feel bad.

    Blinding Powder blast finisher was good, it sort of makes it debatable using it over iHouse if you're speccing shadow arts at all for the stealth-regen (to compensate for losing iHouse heal. The extra second of stealth is really nice too, which only just started working on refuge.  

    It didn't change much at all, no. People will still run either 25/30/0/0/15 or 0/30/25/0/0/15 and not much will change. The new ground targeting method isn't necessary at all for thieves; that's more an engineer-exclusive option.

    #9 draxynnic

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    Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:00 PM

    Yeah, I've found that on the occasions I go P/P, it's more efficient to just keep unloading - with my trait setup and crit chance, it's rare that I have to take more than one or two normal shots before I resume the submachineguns akimbo style.

    The change to Body Shot is thus... interesting. I can see it having its uses, but I don't think a 1s immobilise is worth losing 5 vuln stacks and an extra initiative each time its used.
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    #10 Dahk

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    Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:18 PM

    The more I've used it in game, the less I like it.  Even solo, it often seems better to just unload and finish off a mob than to waste the ini trying to immobilize it.

    I tried P/P in PvP as well and the immobilize doesn't really fix much of anything.

    I guess there may be a rare occasion where you may want to snare a mob in a dungeon during trash?  Beyond that, it's rather disappointing.

    #11 sanctuaire

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    Posted 17 October 2013 - 11:27 AM

    and anet keeps dragging their heels on the pve-pvp skill split. how surprising.

    further proof that anet doesn't listen at ALL on why pistol #2 and venoms aren't used much on pve,
    even though lots of people are pointing it out already.

    .

    #12 Meridya

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    Posted 18 October 2013 - 07:29 AM

    View PostMinion, on 15 October 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

    Besides, people who main hand pistols in PvE are bad and they should feel bad.

    I understand why you might say this, but you should think about how few situations there are that a thief is forced to resort to ranged combat in PvE.  It generally only happens when fighting a Champion or Legendary class enemy that can potentially 1 or 2 shot the thief and maintaining melee makes it difficult to judge when to dodge and evade.  If this is the only time a thief needs to engage outside of melee, using P/P for Unload and Headshot makes more sense than using Shortbow because the damage output is higher and you don't need the extra AoE options.

    #13 Chase

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    Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:35 PM

    Can we chill out for a second?

    1) S/D used to only strip one boon. We got a lollipop for a few months and ANet took it out of our mouths. No need to cry -- we still strip boons like a boss. Just more in line with other players. From a PvP perspective, this is a small hit in general. Weren't you using S/D in the dredge fractal before it stripped two boons? I was.

    2) Pistols sucked balls.

    * P1 is condition.
    * P2 is to help increase direct damage for a short amount of time.
    * P3 is direct damage that takes a long time time to cast. (So not synergizing with P2!)
    * P4 is a stun (useless against bosses, not used against single or grouped trash).
    * P5 is a blind field (useless against bosses, requires you to be in melee range for trash...).

    Now they just suck a little less. Yes -- I know you all wanted a serious revamp, I too was hoping for a good update to P/P as well. And, yes, I agree that the pistols still don't synergize well. But what they did was keep in line with what the pistols were: A ranged D/D that is for single target damage / control. If anything in PvE there was a lack of control on the Pistol so they gave us P2. I don't know why any one complains about this. On the Dregde fractal again, I was always on lever duty. Now I can also be on "position the boss" duty cuz immobilizes go through defiance. In the Arah path with the ooze monster, if you snare it, it can't move/attack. A group of 3 thieves can indefinitely keep this boss stuck so that it can NEVER EVER hit a person. In the past this was a place only warriors could hold. Now thieves have entered the arena there.

    P2 never had a place in any build that Thieves used. If you still don't want to use it, it's a normal patch where nothing changed. If you want to complain about something, talk about what isn't being talked about: Venoms. I, for one, use P2 more than I ever used to and S/D just as I used to. Smoke bomb is a joke.

    #14 Ship Soo

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    Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:03 PM

    View Postdjk, on 18 October 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

    Can we chill out for a second?

    I approve this message
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    Want to chat or have a question? Feel free to PM me.

    #15 draxynnic

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    Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:23 PM

    I also approve that message.

    I will disagree on the first point, though. Flanking Strike did originally steal one boon, true - but it stole that boon on 4 initiative total. Then it got split, and Larcenous Strike got to steal two boons - a clear buff. Then Larcenous Strike got increased to two initiative - which made the chain as a whole more powerful at a greater cost than the original. Now, the extra boon has been removed. It hasn't quite come full circle - it still costs one initiative more than it used to - which means, at the moment, it's a net nerf. Which is curious when it started off with ArenaNet feeling the skill needed buffing.

    On the second, I'd add that there is actually something that Black Powder adds to purely ranged P/P - it self-comboes to blind the target, and then provides a combo field for you and your allies to generate more blinds. The smoke field also allows for being combined with blast finishers to grant stealth. There's also the option to pull other sorts of cunning moves like using Steal to get into combat, dropping a smoke field, then rolling or shadowstepping back to a safe distance. There are a lot of cunning uses you can come up with for it if you think about it, and one of the advantages of the thief is that you don't need every skill to be useful all the time - if a skill isn't useful to the circumstance, you can just spend the initiative elsewhere.
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    #16 Dahk

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    Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:24 PM

    View Postdjk, on 18 October 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

    On the Dregde fractal again, I was always on lever duty. Now I can also be on "position the boss" duty cuz immobilizes go through defiance.
    That's actually a good point.  Regardless of what spec/weapon set you use, the last boss of the dredge fractals was one where the pistols really do shine since ranged is better to keep the boss kiting anyways.  Regardless of the state of all else, a thief with P/P and a short bow is really the best class for that fight, period right now.  You have an instant ranged stun for kicking the ice ele's heal, strong single target ranged dps (since it's a terrible fight for melee due to the need to kite the boss), an instant teleport to levers with the sb, and now a spammable immobilize.

    There is not a more perfect tool set for that fight, really, haha!

    #17 Chase

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    Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:59 PM

    View Postdraxynnic, on 18 October 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

    Flanking Strike did originally steal one boon, true - but it stole that boon on 4 initiative total. Then it got split, and Larcenous Strike got to steal two boons - a clear buff. Then Larcenous Strike got increased to two initiative - which made the chain as a whole more powerful at a greater cost than the original. Now, the extra boon has been removed. It hasn't quite come full circle - it still costs one initiative more than it used to - which means, at the moment, it's a net nerf. Which is curious when it started off with ArenaNet feeling the skill needed buffing.

    On the second, I'd add that there is actually something that Black Powder adds to purely ranged P/P - it self-comboes to blind the target, and then provides a combo field for you and your allies to generate more blinds. The smoke field also allows for being combined with blast finishers to grant stealth. There's also the option to pull other sorts of cunning moves like using Steal to get into combat, dropping a smoke field, then rolling or shadowstepping back to a safe distance. There are a lot of cunning uses you can come up with for it if you think about it, and one of the advantages of the thief is that you don't need every skill to be useful all the time - if a skill isn't useful to the circumstance, you can just spend the initiative elsewhere.

    Well if we're getting nit-picky on S/D 3 they did very greatly improve the performance of flanking strike (which at the time used to steal a boon). Often times you'd try to steal a boon with the 4 initiative and it would be completely wasted initiative cuz you went flying around the character (no damage or boon stolen). So in a way, I consider the new mechanic a buff at the cost of one more initiative. Plus-minus xP

    On the subject of P/P, it is still, even with the things you've mentioned, a non-synergized weapon set. Most of what you're saying requires other people to pull the weight for you. (I.E. AoE blind but single target weapon set.) That's why off hand P is amazing for D or S, but not, in my opinion, when paired with the Pistol main hand. And that's an identified "problem" that people have mentioned for over a year now.

    P/P is the only weapon set that has neither an effective gap closer or gap opener. D/D has 2 and 3 (heck even 4 if you kind of think about it), D/P has 2 and 3, S/D has 2 and 3 (and again 4 if you consider that), S/P has 2 and 3 (but 3 is rooted in this case), P/D has 3 to get out of trouble just like SB has 3 to evade (and SB also has 5 to position itself).

    P/P is like a "okay you equipped this, now use your physical movement keys to kite stuff." (???) This is something that has unnerved the Thief community for some time, it's in complete contrast to any other weapon set that is equippable. However, I don't see how P2 is the culprit here. At the least it acts a little like D4 in that it slows your target down so you can catch up or run away from it. But due to it being an Immobilize, the game can't in any fairness give it a high duration. So it's "like" D4, but really, it's not a safe way to get to or away from a target (not to mention D4 hits multiple enemies). P/P is still the least mobile option for a thief, and a Thief survives on mobility / stealth. None of which are present on the P/P for any sustainable time.

    We can create a thread that tries to remedy these issues while not game-breakingly changing the other weapon sets (As in we can change P1 2 and 3, but 4 and 5 should probably remain the same) and if we're constructive enough while taking into account other classes/professions maybe we can get an ear out to ANet. I would love to contribute to that.

    #18 draxynnic

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    Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:28 AM

    On S/D... there's swings and roundabouts in that. The old (dys)functionality was causing it not to behave how it was intended to by ArenaNet, and was probably not included in the original decision to make it cost 4ini. OTOH, it might be that it genuinely is worth 5ini total now that it is properly functional, and previously it was technically undercosted, but the undercosting was balanced by the glitch.

    On the gripping hand, it's quite likely still in the process of being evaluated, and if they decide it is too weak now it may well come full circle, or alternatively be buffed in some other manner.

    On P/P... I generally use it in a group environment where there are people who will make use of that and where enough of the heat goes on other players that I don't need more than dodges to kite (especially with the synergy between Signet of Malice and Unload), so saying that there are better weapons for going solo is a bit of a "well, of course!" Personally, I don't think there's a problem with having a weaponset that is more suited to some situations than others - in fact, I'd think that's half the point of having the various different sets. There may be a difference in philosophy here, but I personally don't have an issue with regarding the P/P as a set you use for fire support in group situations, while leaning towards other sets for solo play.

    Now, that's not saying I wouldn't support changes that improved the synergy (although I will point out again that Black Powder does actually synergise quite well with the other pistol attacks), but I don't equate "you need to cooperate with your allies to get the most out of it" with "bad" in an MMO as long as there IS a reasonable set of options for soloing - which, for the thief, I think there are.
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    #19 Caius Gray

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    Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:15 PM

    View Postdraxynnic, on 20 October 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

    On P/P... I generally use it in a group environment where there are people who will make use of that and where enough of the heat goes on other players that I don't need more than dodges to kite (especially with the synergy between Signet of Malice and Unload), so saying that there are better weapons for going solo is a bit of a "well, of course!" Personally, I don't think there's a problem with having a weaponset that is more suited to some situations than others - in fact, I'd think that's half the point of having the various different sets. There may be a difference in philosophy here, but I personally don't have an issue with regarding the P/P as a set you use for fire support in group situations, while leaning towards other sets for solo play.

    I think everyone's main gripe with P/P is that it's a set that has the potential to be good (not to mention it's one of our only two options if we want / need to fight in ranged for some reason) but has always been a somewhat random mismatch of skills.

    I have no problem with different builds excelling at different things, this part of what makes build experimentation so fun. It's also exactly where P/P falls down as a weapon set.

    What is it supposed to excel at?

    My first instinct is single-target ranged damage / support but it just doesn't have the skill line to back it up. Just compare it to Short Bow - not only is SB pretty clear cut for hitting multiple targets at range and utilizing blast finishers, it also has good mobility to back it up.

    P/P has no mobility at all and its damaging skills are split between wanting to stack bleeds and deal physical.

    Having P1 being a condition glares me in the face every time I whip out P/P and pushes a decent amount of the build choices into initiative management to keep spamming Unload cause any time you're auto-attacking your dps tanks.

    It is on the fringe of excelling in an area that Thief doesn't have a weapon set to cater for, but is held back by its unclear damage profile and lack of utility in the area it's suited for.

    #20 Rachmani

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    Posted 21 October 2013 - 01:23 PM

    I always thought that the bleed on P1 (not sneak attack, though) should either be a trait that would add a bleed to it or stack vulnerability instead.
    In both scenarios base damage could be improved and the time between attacks reduced.
    Also i think Body Shot should be a 1 second immobilize and a short evade backwards (and maybe a leap finisher for nice synergy with Black Powder). 4 Initiative (instead of 3 for SB's evade) & Black Powders 6 would make its synergy quite costly and nowhere near as good as heartseeker & black Powder.
    [Edit]: In addition to this, with Sneak Attack's focus on bleeds, a stealth leap would mainly be a repositioning tool, not a kill move like Heartseeker into Backstab.

    Edited by Rachmani, 22 October 2013 - 06:14 PM.


    #21 Katsumi Kei

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    Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:07 PM

    View PostRachmani, on 21 October 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

    I always thought that the bleed on P1 (not sneak attack, though) should either be a trait that would add a bleed to it or stack vulnerability instead.
    In both scenarios base damage could be improved and the time between attacks reduced.
    Also i think Body Shot should be a 1 second immobilize and a short evade backwards (and maybe a leap finisher for nice synergy with Black Powder). 4 Initiative (instead of 3 for SB's evade) & Black Powders 6 would make its synergy quite costly and nowhere near as good as heartseeker & black Powder.

    Basicly this. The mh pistol forces you into condition build, there should be a choice. At the moment p/p is build 100% around unload, no play style can trive from one skill build. I like condition p/d for the mobility, but direct dmg with this weapon set would be great too.

    #22 Bosman

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    Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:00 PM

    View PostKatsumi Kei, on 21 October 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

    Basicly this. The mh pistol forces you into condition build, there should be a choice. At the moment p/p is build 100% around unload, no play style can trive from one skill build. I like condition p/d for the mobility, but direct dmg with this weapon set would be great too.

    I disagree. It doesn't matter too much if a certain weapon forces you into a certain kind of build. However, there is a problem is the weapon set itself is divided on what it does. Dagger/dagger his this to a lesser degree as well, although that one is good enough to be able to both well.

    Of course, a further problem is that it's our only long-range single target set, and it's highly disfunctional.





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