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Why you Can't Ignore Ascended Gear


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#1 El Duderino

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:25 PM

This is pretty straight-forward. I know a lot of people think that you can ignore ascended gear because it is optional. So, let's run with that.

Why did ascended gear get introduced? Most people agree that it is to appease the people looking for more vertical progression. Besides the fact that I think a lot of those people aren't exactly appeased at all by ascended gear, here is the problem:

It just won't stop with ascended gear.

Think about it for a second - you simply cannot stop gear progression or you risk losing out on those customers you've pissed everyone else off to keep. So, that means you simply cannot stop adding more and more levels of gear.

Sure, ANet is releasing everything slowly, but at some point, if this game is to continue, there has to be a new level of gear. Let's not forget too that ANet already said that they never rules out increasing the level cap which means that EVERYONE's gear would be obsolete.

So, if you think Ascended Gear is no big deal because you don't need it, just wait. At some point the new levels of gear will be necessary or everyone will be one-shotting everything if the content doesn't increase with the stat increase.

You simply cannot have a gear grind without it actually becoming a gear grind - it is necessary by definition of the term.

That is all.


View PostEl Duderino, on 21 November 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

Using a Sword/Warhorn Warrior Build with traits set at 30/30/0/0/10 on each, there is a 12.6% change in having all Ascended Gear to having all Exotic Gear.

Please feel free to use this post as a reference when people say that Ascended Gear only gives a modest increase in stats. 12.6% is a huge increase and not the commonly reported 3% to 5% that people tend to use.

Source: http://gw2buildcraft...ulator/warrior/



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Edited by Feathermoore, 21 November 2013 - 09:14 PM.
Added OP from merged thread


#2 Reason on Cooldown

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:42 PM

I thought ANet admitted that Ascended was introduced because they screwed up on Exotics and made them way too easy to get.  And also that the intent was that Ascended would be the final tier (acknowledging that intent does not rule out new tiers).

#3 Daesu

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:45 PM

Wait till they introduce Legendary Armor next year.  You would need to get all 6 pieces of it and they would glow and make you look like a superstar so that you absolutely need to have it.



#4 Miragee

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:45 PM

Ah no, you are exaggerating. They said, they won't add another gear tier. Colin said it! So they obviously won't do that!

What they will do is, as Mr. O'Brain mentioned, increasing the level cap at some point. At this point all current gear becomes pointless and you begin from scratch. First Exotics, then Ascended, rinse and repeat. Well, of course at that point the gear tier farmer kind of players are not in the game anymore but does that matter? No, because they will obviously coming back for grinding one month and then leave again. And also leave all the other players in this huge pile of gear grind. But you can ignore it of course. You just can't complete the new level content then but who cares. GW2 has so many things it doesn't matter if you can't do a small portion of it. Everything is ok I guess.
But that actually helps to get players back into gw2. Just for a month, but who cares? They come back and that is all that matters. You need these people or your game will die for sure. I mean, look at WoW. They did that and are alive. GW1 didn't do that and died. Quiet a coherency if you ask me.

#5 El Duderino

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:47 PM

View PostReason on Cooldown, on 15 October 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

I thought ANet admitted that Ascended was introduced because they screwed up on Exotics and made them way too easy to get.  And also that the intent was that Ascended would be the final tier (acknowledging that intent does not rule out new tiers).

No, they didn't. And, if that was the case, you would think they would just stop instead of continuing to come out with more and more.

#6 MazingerZ

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:21 PM

View PostReason on Cooldown, on 15 October 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

I thought ANet admitted that Ascended was introduced because they screwed up on Exotics and made them way too easy to get.  And also that the intent was that Ascended would be the final tier (acknowledging that intent does not rule out new tiers).

Even if that's the case, that's just the tier.

In order to obsolete level 70 epics after two years of progression, they had to massively buff the base-line 71 gear.

Baseline epic helmet at 70: http://www.wowhead.com/item=32085

Final tier at 70: http://www.wowhead.com/item=34333

More than double the increase in damage stats (Agility) as well as additional stat points in the green text.

Without budging an inch at 70 levels, they more than doubled their damage stat and Blizzard had to somehow make that gear less desirable when they went to level 71, or even level 80.

Mind, Ascended is just one move above it, but when they hit the next level cap, they need to make the level 90 (or whatever) Ascended worth switching towards to keep people grinding and playing.

Edited by MazingerZ, 15 October 2013 - 10:21 PM.

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#7 Obscure One

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:30 PM

Vertical progression isn't a problem if it's properly tempered by horizontal progression. If ascended gear was awarded properly there would be no disagreement among the bulk of the community that it is a good thing. Implementation of this vertical progression is faulty, not the progression itself. Driving any player base into a progression that is gated by specific content alienates the player base that simply doesn't do that specific content for any number of personal reasons. Gating progression behind a shared element within the mechanics that all players engage in regardless of personal play style is good progression. This was the initial design intent behind Karma rewards which has at this point been almost an entirely abandoned game element. Why not offer ascended trinkets for 500k Karma and weapons for 2 million Karma? Because that would not serve to contribute to the game economy, simple. The lower the value of gold in relation to gems the higher the perceived value of physical real world currency becomes in relation to gems. Ascended gear simultaneously reduces exotic item value, and with the implementation of unprecedented gold rewards that conveniently coincided with the tier release the proliferation of gold has deflated it's own value.

Ascended gear implementation was not intended to please players seeking vertical progression, but rather to please a parent company and it's share holders by diminishing the incentive to convert currency obtained in game for a currency that is in their best interest to get you to pay real world money for. Good business, bad game design, but they'll get the ROI they're looking for and monetize the next game in like fashion (Wild Star is next) over and over title after title. Nexon is superb at designing games with their accountants.

#8 MazingerZ

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:39 PM

View PostObscure One, on 15 October 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

Ascended gear implementation was not intended to please players seeking vertical progression, but rather to please a parent company and it's share holders by diminishing the incentive to convert currency obtained in game for a currency that is in their best interest to get you to pay real world money for. Good business, bad game design, but they'll get the ROI they're looking for and monetize the next game in like fashion (Wild Star is next) over and over title after title. Nexon is superb at designing games with their accountants.

I tend to agree that while the original release of Ascended didn't have this (well, not obviously) intent, I can see how the intent of releasing the crafting path in order to constrain the liquidity of assets for those who wanted Ascended and were sitting on either gold or other currencies that could be turned into gold.

A very Bank of America path to target people to engage with you in your form of business by offering them other means (loans/gems) in order to realize their dreams (gem store items) because they lack the actual funds (gold->gems) to fulfill them.

Edited by MazingerZ, 15 October 2013 - 10:39 PM.

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Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#9 Skyward

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:46 PM

Its not relevant since no one needs ascended  gear to complete a level in pve or to win a battle in pvp. Stats vs costs are horrible. I really don't understand why people care at all to create them.

#10 MazingerZ

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 10:50 PM

View PostSkyward, on 15 October 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

Its not relevant since no one needs ascended  gear to complete a level in pve or to win a battle in pvp. Stats vs costs are horrible. I really don't understand why people care at all to create them.

BiS, gear progression.  The original reason it was put in, to keep those players who wanted it around.

You don't necessarily need it (say that as much as you want, in a battle where everything else is controlled and the test criteria is someone having better stats, logically speaking the better stats will win more, they do affect an outcome; and if they don't, the statistical system the game has is utter shit, pointless and why would it even be in the game?) , but that's not the point.

The point is, they put in something people want.

Read the post again.  I'll even leave the portion that dismisses your argument.

View PostEl Duderino, on 15 October 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Why did ascended gear get introduced? Most people agree that it is to appease the people looking for more vertical progression. Besides the fact that I think a lot of those people aren't exactly appeased at all by ascended gear, here is the problem:

It just won't stop with ascended gear.

Think about it for a second - you simply cannot stop gear progression or you risk losing out on those customers you've pissed everyone else off to keep. So, that means you simply cannot stop adding more and more levels of gear.

Edited by MazingerZ, 15 October 2013 - 10:57 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#11 MisterJaguar25

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:11 PM

View PostReason on Cooldown, on 15 October 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

I thought ANet admitted that Ascended was introduced because they screwed up on Exotics and made them way too easy to get.  And also that the intent was that Ascended would be the final tier (acknowledging that intent does not rule out new tiers).


That makes sense, actually. Tho I don't recall them saying that. Having an extra tier of gear that's a little better than the one you can get for cheap with gold that requires much more grinding is possibly meant to give people one tier of gear that they actually have to work for instead of just lolbuying, than that being the end of it. If they add an entire set of ascended gear, the stat increases would be more than just slight, definitely, but it is a fact that it is completely unnecessary for anything but high level fractals (I get to that in the third paragraph of this post), and as long as they don't gate content behind it, and make it require a really long grind like the ascended weapons, than it can be ignored completely.

As for the argument of WvW imbalance, it's a random group of players of any race and varying levels of gear, ascended gear won't make any serious difference to what's already an imbalanced system. And when you have 10+ people on your tail no amount of ascended gear will save you.

Only problem is that higher level fractals are gated by a requirement for ascended gear, but other than some enemies using different abilities, and spawning in greater numbers, it's the same fractals just harder. And if it's the higher difficulty that you don't want to be forced to grind lesser difficulties for, well this entire game must be too easy for you, so I don't think you would've even made it to level 80 (the level requirement for ascended gear) without quitting from boredom, so that wouldn't even be a problem for you.

Combining all this information I think I can safely conclude that, at this current time, ascended gear creates no serious problem for this game and there is no evidence that it ever will, nor is there any evidence that Anet will make even higher tiers of gear. And that is my argument for this topic.

Edited by MisterJaguar25, 15 October 2013 - 11:12 PM.


#12 MazingerZ

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:22 PM

View PostMisterJaguar25, on 15 October 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

That makes sense, actually. Tho I don't recall them saying that. Having an extra tier of gear that's a little better than the one you can get for cheap with gold that requires much more grinding is possibly meant to give people one tier of gear that they actually have to work for instead of just lolbuying, than that being the end of it. If they add an entire set of ascended gear, the stat increases would be more than just slight, definitely, but it is a fact that it is completely unnecessary for anything but high level fractals (I get to that in the third paragraph of this post), and as long as they don't gate content behind it, and make it require a really long grind like the ascended weapons, than it can be ignored completely.

Wasn't that the entire point of the Legendary?

View PostMisterJaguar25, on 15 October 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

As for the argument of WvW imbalance, it's a random group of players of any race and varying levels of gear, ascended gear won't make any serious difference to what's already an imbalanced system. And when you have 10+ people on your tail no amount of ascended gear will save you.

We're not talking about 10+ v 1, we're talking about skirmishes and roaming groups.  I won't throw a fixed arbitrary number, but in my experience those groups are more than 5, less than 10.

Your faulty logic here is that it doesn't matter because WvWvW already has so many factors unbalancing it.  The point is, everything else being equal, only two cases can arise:

Either

a) Ascended gear stats did not increase the likelihood to win, at which point the statistical system is utter crap, why do stats exist in the first place and why did Ascended need higher stats?

or

B)
the person with Ascended will win, and that's a clear imbalance in a competitive field where numbers matter more than skill.

Edited by MazingerZ, 15 October 2013 - 11:22 PM.

It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#13 Graka

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:49 PM

I addressed this in another topic, the one about Anet's direction. Ascended gear basically was their idea of making a tier that was not as easy as exotics to get, and they listened to a former WoW staffer most likely on how to implement this with the fractals. As some have stated if it was such a bad idea why keep rolling it out , it's simple cause once you have the content out in such a way that people have replaced items you can't just take it away. If you look at it they have tried to bring it out in a way that does not totally screw the market. Also on top of this once ascended armor comes out next month most likely, they want to implement more ways for you to get ascended items, weapons from dungeons, armor from dungeon tokens, assessories and rings/earrings/neck pieces from jewelcrafting et are ways of doing. They don't want there to be just one method for ascended gear but multiple.

With the "stat creep" the stats don't effect spvp and in wvw are negligible along with pve, the best relation I can put to it is tier 6 from wow with naxxramus. The content could be done with brains with tier 6 gear and the upgrade to tier 7 was so negligible as to be pointless with naxx obsidian sanctum and malygos.

And to those that say we can't trust Anet then why are we having the coversation other to complain for complaining sake since we have no idea what Anet will do. Ascended armor will be rolled out, new ways will be implemented toget ascended gear. Legendary gear will come out next year and will have no benefit above ascended gear than saying look at me I'm special.

Addendum: most of those I talk to the frequent wvw say ascended gear changes nothing, even in 1v1 fights its impact barely registers. Most of them never farmed or crafted ascended weapons cause it would take time away from wvw and is no benefit. The wvw traits have more of an effect than ascended gear.

Edit: For clarity, do I think the implementation of Ascended gear was rolled out in the wrong manner? Yes. Do I think they are fixing it as best they can and their future plans fix the problems? Also Yes.

Edited by Graka, 15 October 2013 - 11:57 PM.


#14 El Duderino

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:10 AM

View PostMisterJaguar25, on 15 October 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Combining all this information I think I can safely conclude that, at this current time, ascended gear creates no serious problem for this game and there is no evidence that it ever will, nor is there any evidence that Anet will make even higher tiers of gear. And that is my argument for this topic.

I'm glad we have you to make the final case for everyone. Except, didn't you argue in another thread that Ascended Gear was made for people who like a stat grind? Yes, yes you did, here it is:

View PostMisterJaguar25, on 14 October 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

1) Again it's for people who like stat progression, there's literally nothing wrong with an optional progression for such people so long as it doesn't get too high, which it is far far far from at this current time (like I said the stats on ascended are BARELY better than gear you can get on BMA).

So, what happens to those people when they have their Ascended Gear? Oh, that's right, it's time to make a new tier of gear to appease them. And, what happens when you make a new tier of gear? Content becomes really too easy. And, what happens when content gets really too easy? Oh, that right, it's time to make content harder. And what happens when content gets harder and you need better stats to complete it? Oh, that's right, you starts to make it more difficult for casual players and new players to get up to speed with everyone else - especially considering the colossal time grind that you must undertake in GW2 to get gear. (I'm thinking of using this as a new "Give a Mouse a Cookie" book concept.)

So, which is it? You can't change your argument every time and ignore the past arguments you made. I will point it out again, if what you are saying is the case, then the addition of ascended gear is bad development. Adding grind to a game for grind's sake isn't good design. It is a slap in the face to people that actually, you know, have half a brain.

Why not develop more intriguing repeatable content instead of a really bad gear grind instead? Seems like that is a good way to develop a game. And, oh, that was the way GW1 was originally developed. Although, I guess when the founders of a company decide to leave there is a good reason for it. Maybe it's because they realize their dream game has turned into a nightmare.

Edited by El Duderino, 16 October 2013 - 12:11 AM.


#15 FoxBat

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:51 AM

Vertical and Horizontal progression can work in complementary rather than either-or-fashion. Case 1 would be that ascended tier may lead more people into legendaries, particularly as a precursor crafting path comes online. One because it acquaints them with the process of a long crafting grind that is then extended into an epic grind, even as the motivator switches from stats to skin. (Thought it should be noted, legendaries have the considerable convenience advantage of stat flexibility. This is arguably a kind of horizontal progression.) Note that there are plans for legendary armor, and supposedly something like a legendary backpack should come before year's end.

The second thing that comes to mind is their gradual introduction of new horizontal stat options. From time to time we have seen new stat combos such as sentinels, settler's, celestial come in tied to some limited resource. There's a limit on how far they can push further stat combos, but there is still some room to do so. These new options become desirable in much the same way new skills do or gw1 armor insignias did. Some people will discard their old gear in search of the new stuff, and in the case of Ascended that is no small task; wheras for things as cheap as exotics, it's not that much of an effort. We might also see incentives for multiple ascended sets appear as infusions proliferate; right now there is an infusion setup for fractals, and a different infusion setup for small groups flipping camps. There may be more specialized infusions appearing in the future.

As for a level cap push upwards. They could do such a thing as Blizzard has founded WoW on. Even in such a case though, the next tier down becomes much more accessible. Note how exotic weapons are now a bit above 1g when they were around 4 thanks to ascended crafting, which I don't think is any accident. So this keeps newcomers and casuals from falling behind, but it may be a hard pill to swallow for the people that stuck all that effort into the ascended grind when it rains on the newbies.

However Anet aren't really *forced* to solve the problem this way. On the other end of the spectrum, they could make ascendeds/legendaries automatically scale with your level in the event of a level cap raise, with lvl 90 exotics being the accessible gear. This means level cap raise does nothing for the gear stat hunt though. A possible compromise would be to offer upgrade recipies that required a significantly lesser amount of grind to achieve that creating the item from scratch. Anet themselves expressed concern about effort put into Ascended feeling worthless so my guess is they will pick something close to this compromise solution. (While probably letting legendaries automatically level or such.)

Another angle to consider is the idea of "inevitable attrition." That is, you assume that your average player is unlikely to last more than X amount of time. Magic: The Gathering devs identified 2 years of intense play as an average for that game, and therefore settled on a 2-year rotation for their flagship format to best serve new players. It does make the 2+ year players less happy but since many of them would quit regardless, it is evaluated as less of a tradeoff versus attracting new players. In the case of GW2 they may only have a grind platform that works well for up to 2 or 3 years, and be unwilling to invest significant resources in extended that versus picking up new players. So it's important that the ascended and then legendary tiers exist, but further tiers beyond that aren't as important as attrition will take those players anyway. Even the phenomenal success of WoW takes into account natural attrition, as they have worked hard to constantly re-invent a single game as much as possible, shedding many bitter fans longing for the old days, but keeping up their total subscriber numbers well over time.

So in closing, while it's very possible for Anet to botch this and fall into the WoW gear treadmill trap, I don't think they have painted themself into a corner here. There are solutions if they are careful about implementing them. We probably won't see much sign of this until a year later once the Asia launch is behind them and they start thinking about expansion-style content.

#16 Trei

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:00 AM

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 October 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

.....
So, what happens to those people when they have their Ascended Gear? Oh, that's right, it's time to make a new tier of gear to appease them. And, what happens when you make a new tier of gear? Content becomes really too easy. And, what happens when content gets really too easy? Oh, that right, it's time to make content harder. And what happens when content gets harder and you need better stats to complete it? Oh, that's right, you starts to make it more difficult for casual players and new players to get up to speed with everyone else - especially considering the colossal time grind that you must undertake in GW2 to get gear. (I'm thinking of using this as a new "Give a Mouse a Cookie" book concept....
Your initial assumption that Asc gear was introduced to appease people who like vertical progression is still just that, an assumption.

I don't see a need to add a tier, especially if we go by another assumption that they will increase the level cap.
I note the mention of WoW's gear leap when TBC raised cap to lvl 70, but that's WoW's design issue.

But other than that, I agree Anet should have thought of something else in the beginning to address what they thought they needed to address with Asc gear.
I object to the existence of Asc gear.

#17 The Condor

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:04 AM

I respectfully have to disagree with you on this one, El Duderino, I can ignore ascended items in a manner of speaking.  The reason is actually quite simple, if they release another tier of gear, I will stop playing the game.  I made this promise to myself last year when they rolled out ascended gear.  I'm willing to bet you and many others on this forum would do the same.

I've gotten over the sting of ascended items and now maintain an indifference to them now.  I will get them based on time and natural progression, but it's not a goal.  Fortunately, their stats don't necessitate a need for them.

ANet knows how unpopular ascended items are, partially with how they were introduced, partially because it goes against their mission statement.  I'd be surprised if they keep going with stat progression to keep the hamsters in their wheel while knowing they'd lose people like us.  I believe FoxBat is on to something, although it's a very long read.  And I think ANet learned its lesson.  The most recent updates show that they're learning (permanent content as opposed to living story) and one can hope they'll continue in this direction.

Hopefully they go back to their GW1 ways and introduce pretty things like rare skins and more titles.  Because honestly, looking good is really all that matters.  Just remember the vast improvement seen in GW1 from it's prophecies days to EOTN.  Well, at least I think each campaign and expansion kept getting better.

#18 Featherman

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:15 AM

I believe that the core of this issue that ANet has chosen a design infrastructure in which the game cannot engage without being a treadmill like WoW. GW2 is not the incredibly deep and flexible deck building game that GW1 was, but a game where only cookie cutter builds and min maxing of raw statistic matter. In other words it's themepark like WoW pitfalls and all, and at this rate I estimate that ANet will release another tier before the beginning of summer when players will inevitably complain about there being "nothing to do," a notion that would probably be backed up by ANet's metrics.

I'd wager that the cause of this isn't that players want a treadmill, it's that ANet's vision of their game was limited by the trappings of WoW. The phrase "you don't know what you don't know" applies here, as it was likely that ANet didn't know what to do without using WoW as a foundation for their game. The evidence lies in ANet's advertisements of the game. Almost all of the "innovations" ANet boasted about only made sense when juxtaposed with the apparent failings of WoW. The advertisements made it sound nice but what it really means is that GW2 is WoW, but with several change made in vein of accessibility. It wasn't even until the end of the year before foundation of these changes gave way, showing how flimsy they were in the first place and it's a shame that the "no treadmill promise was one of the changes that ended up being reverted.

Edited by Featherman, 16 October 2013 - 01:41 AM.


#19 MazingerZ

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:39 AM

View PostTrei, on 16 October 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

Your initial assumption that Asc gear was introduced to appease people who like vertical progression is still just that, an assumption.

I don't see a need to add a tier, especially if we go by another assumption that they will increase the level cap.
I note the mention of WoW's gear leap when TBC raised cap to lvl 70, but that's WoW's design issue.

But other than that, I agree Anet should have thought of something else in the beginning to address what they thought they needed to address with Asc gear.
I object to the existence of Asc gear.

Then you need to explain why it needed to have more statistical values and couldn't just have the Agony Resistance.  His follows a logical assumption.  Yours does not.
It's okay to enjoy crap if you're willing to admit it's crap.
Every patch is like ArenaNet walking out onto the stage of the International Don't Kitten Up Championship, and then proceeding to shiv itself in the stomach 30 times while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!"

#20 Butcher

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:11 AM

"No grind MMO"
"A casual MMO"
"We want stats to plateau so player skill will matter"
"Exotics are too easy to obtain"
"Here's ascended gear"
"Exotics will not be improved to match ascended gear"

It's really just ANet doing what they do best...throwing in another system (*cough*laurels*cough*) instead of fixing ones they've already established (*cough*karma*cough*). God, how is it possible for me to enjoy this game? I'm actually worried that soon the fun will run out with more bad developer decisions.

#21 ZCKS

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:03 AM

View PostFoxBat, on 16 October 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

However Anet aren't really *forced* to solve the problem this way. On the other end of the spectrum, they could make ascendeds/legendaries automatically scale with your level in the event of a level cap raise, with lvl 90 exotics being the accessible gear. This means level cap raise does nothing for the gear stat hunt though. A possible compromise would be to offer upgrade recipies that required a significantly lesser amount of grind to achieve that creating the item from scratch. Anet themselves expressed concern about effort put into Ascended feeling worthless so my guess is they will pick something close to this compromise solution. (While probably letting legendaries automatically level or such.)

I think I remeber Colin getting asked a question about a year back about legendaries.

The question was something like what will happen to legendary items if you increase the level cap. His response was that legendaries would always remain the best weapon of that type & would be up leveled with your character (or something along those lines).

And if you think about it this makes sense seeing as how legendary weapons are so hard to get.

As for ascended weapons/armor.

They are definitely harder to get the exotics nuy not so much so that they should just automatically be leveled up, your suggestion of having a way to refine them into higher level versions seems like a very good idea (hopefully Arena.net uses something similar)

#22 El Duderino

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:20 AM

View PostTrei, on 16 October 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

Your initial assumption that Asc gear was introduced to appease people who like vertical progression is still just that, an assumption.

I don't see a need to add a tier, especially if we go by another assumption that they will increase the level cap.
I note the mention of WoW's gear leap when TBC raised cap to lvl 70, but that's WoW's design issue.

But other than that, I agree Anet should have thought of something else in the beginning to address what they thought they needed to address with Asc gear.
I object to the existence of Asc gear.

That assumption was based on what defenders of GW2 kept telling me, nothing else. So, it wasn't my assumption, it was the trumpeting of the white knights that made that point.

I would also note that an increase in cap level would be a de facto increase in gear tiers as well.

It's not so much that the problem is the ascended gear itself, but when we talk about the pitfalls of how ascended gear was implemented, it is often noted that it isn't necessary. When asked why it was added then, if it isn't necessary, one is often told that it was because it made people happy to have a gear grind. So, to that end, a gear grind simply does not end with one tier of gear. It must continue. If people want to make the case that it wasn't added for these people, then why was it added? It clearly isn't beneficial in any way or serve and purpose then - and if that is the case - it is wasted resources.

The heart of the problem still lies in the implementation and not the actual gear and I think we agree on that. (maybe?)

#23 Tevesh

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:20 AM

View PostMazingerZ, on 15 October 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

We're not talking about 10+ v 1, we're talking about skirmishes and roaming groups.  I won't throw a fixed arbitrary number, but in my experience those groups are more than 5, less than 10.

Why waste time and breath talking about roaming groups in wvw when all anet want is that you just all die horribly in agony?

Clearly skilled pvp players are in no way anet's target demographics, because being good at a game usually involves some analysis and critical thinking. But alas, critical thinking leads players to the only logical conclusion that the gem shop and, thus, the game itself is utter crap. To add injury to the insult, those players like us here then go to forums or reddit to share their opinions, post some facts, and then possibly alienate some Joes and Bills who can't be bothered with calculating their returns on gem investment.

The problem has always been in anets or ncsoft or nexons greed, whoever is in charge there. If they wanted to add agony resistance to the gear just to gate their new FOTM content, they could have just made agony resistance gems for the regular jewelry sockets. Bam, problem solved. Nah, why bother with mechanics that actually benefit the players? Let's add more grid instead.

Quote

Ascended gear basically was their idea of making a tier that was not as easy as exotics to get, and they listened to a former WoW staffer most likely on how to implement this with the fractals.

Yeah, too bad they could not be bothered with listening to the voice of reason as of why the heck did their game even need a gear progression in the first place. However, their long stated goals were long gone by then and the entirety of the other game content and systems were already redesigned towards grind. This was in no way helped by the fact that 20/21 legendaries are just a joke, and the best of them in visual department is the spear. Yeah right, a useful and popular underwater weapon.

Clearly, the very 'need' to implement additional 'long term goals' stems from the fact that all of their previous attempts in this field failed miserably.

Quote

ascended tier may lead more people into legendaries, particularly as a precursor crafting path comes online.

Since the recent change to halloween recipes I have no hope whatsoever on the 'precursor crafting'. I guess the costs of the crafted precursors will float in 3-5k gold range and will also take up to two months of daily crafting to pass the time gate, and soon afterwards anet will remove the cheaper mystic forge option from the game.

And then a month or two after most of the people gave up on anything reasonable they will release a new patch with their new legendaries that actually dont suck bananas in visual department.

Quote

The second thing that comes to mind is their gradual introduction of new horizontal stat options. From time to time we have seen new stat combos such as sentinels, settler's, celestial come in tied to some limited resource

You probably meant 'their gradual failure at horizontal progression cuz the stats system is utterly flawed'? Yeah right, give me moar healing power or tanky gear, because these two are not the worst possible combinations under current gameplay mechanics. Right. Not to mention most of their miserable attempts were either resource-limited, time-gated, tied to a single living story patch or all of the above combined. No thanks, I'm not buyig this. It took them a year to remove magic find as a stat from the game, something that should have been done a month after release  at most, or should have not been in the game in the first place.

#24 nerfandderf

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:50 AM

No matter what you need it.
Especially in PVE - Kill Credit is the reason

If you dontf tag your % you get 0 credit and 0 reward.
If everyone else has it and you are down a little in dps well you get squat.

Then there is WvW - simply you will loose the fight.

They may stop with the ascended for 1 year but they will add in new infusions all the way up to ascended.
Long story short - they will attempt to make it look like what it isnt but you cant change the fact you are grinding stats.

But if this is what they want I say let them have it. Doesnt bother me I dont play anymore. When they are honest and want a real dialogue I will be here maybe. But my other games have benifited by a ton of payola.

What they said was they hope they dont have to add another tier. Please dont believe them.

Edited by nerfandderf, 16 October 2013 - 11:52 AM.


#25 nerfandderf

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:59 AM

View PostTrei, on 16 October 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

Your initial assumption that Asc gear was introduced to appease people who like vertical progression is still just that, an assumption.

I don't see a need to add a tier, especially if we go by another assumption that they will increase the level cap.
I note the mention of WoW's gear leap when TBC raised cap to lvl 70, but that's WoW's design issue.

But other than that, I agree Anet should have thought of something else in the beginning to address what they thought they needed to address with Asc gear.
I object to the existence of Asc gear.
No assumption: it was it was a direct response to the we are at 80 and have nothing to do crowd. They were dropping players and needed to keep retention instead of sticking to thier guns and minfesto they said screw it and added this. Throwing out everything that had been built up to then. Dont beleive me see taugrim. Those are the VP crowd.

Edited by nerfandderf, 16 October 2013 - 12:00 PM.


#26 MisterJaguar25

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:13 PM

View PostMazingerZ, on 15 October 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

Wasn't that the entire point of the Legendary?

I dunno



Quote

We're not talking about 10+ v 1, we're talking about skirmishes and roaming groups.  I won't throw a fixed arbitrary number, but in my experience those groups are more than 5, less than 10.

Your faulty logic here is that it doesn't matter because WvWvW already has so many factors unbalancing it.  The point is, everything else being equal, only two cases can arise:

Either

a) Ascended gear stats did not increase the likelihood to win, at which point the statistical system is utter crap, why do stats exist in the first place and why did Ascended need higher stats?

or

B)
the person with Ascended will win, and that's a clear imbalance in a competitive field where numbers matter more than skill.

To assume that someone with ascended gear automatically wins vs someone in exotics completely disregards

A) Proffession
B ) Skills on the skill bar
C) Trait Specialization
and
D) Player skill

Some extra stats won't make up for lack of skill and or bad trait specializing, I think you're really over-exaggerating the effect it will have.

View PostEl Duderino, on 16 October 2013 - 12:10 AM, said:

I'm glad we have you to make the final case for everyone. Except, didn't you argue in another thread that Ascended Gear was made for people who like a stat grind? Yes, yes you did, here it is:



So, what happens to those people when they have their Ascended Gear? Oh, that's right, it's time to make a new tier of gear to appease them. And, what happens when you make a new tier of gear? Content becomes really too easy. And, what happens when content gets really too easy? Oh, that right, it's time to make content harder. And what happens when content gets harder and you need better stats to complete it? Oh, that's right, you starts to make it more difficult for casual players and new players to get up to speed with everyone else - especially considering the colossal time grind that you must undertake in GW2 to get gear. (I'm thinking of using this as a new "Give a Mouse a Cookie" book concept.)

So, which is it? You can't change your argument every time and ignore the past arguments you made. I will point it out again, if what you are saying is the case, then the addition of ascended gear is bad development. Adding grind to a game for grind's sake isn't good design. It is a slap in the face to people that actually, you know, have half a brain.

Why not develop more intriguing repeatable content instead of a really bad gear grind instead? Seems like that is a good way to develop a game. And, oh, that was the way GW1 was originally developed. Although, I guess when the founders of a company decide to leave there is a good reason for it. Maybe it's because they realize their dream game has turned into a nightmare.

A new possible explanation was brought to my attention as to the existence of ascended gear, that caused me to consider that my previous theory was wrong. As for the rest of your post, it's simply wild speculation, not facts.

Edited by MisterJaguar25, 16 October 2013 - 01:14 PM.


#27 El Duderino

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:35 PM

View PostMisterJaguar25, on 16 October 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

To assume that someone with ascended gear automatically wins vs someone in exotics completely disregards

A) Proffession
B ) Skills on the skill bar
C) Trait Specialization
and
D) Player skill

Some extra stats won't make up for lack of skill and or bad trait specializing, I think you're really over-exaggerating the effect it will have.

I guess you don't understand the term "balance" or "fair" do you?

View PostMisterJaguar25, on 16 October 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

A new possible explanation was brought to my attention as to the existence of ascended gear, that caused me to consider that my previous theory was wrong. As for the rest of your post, it's simply wild speculation, not facts.

No, my post is logical. And, now that you think ascended gear isn't in the game to make "vertical progression" people happy, how do you explain the reason for adding it when there is already legendaries to fulfill need to give people something to grind for a long time?

Again, just because you want to keep changing your arguments doesn't make the addition and implementation of ascended gear any better. It just shows that you are a flip flopper trying to defend GW2 against people who have legitimate problems and concerns about the direction of the game.

#28 El Duderino

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:42 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 16 October 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

Vertical and Horizontal progression can work in complementary rather than either-or-fashion. Case 1 would be that ascended tier may lead more people into legendaries, particularly as a precursor crafting path comes online. One because it acquaints them with the process of a long crafting grind that is then extended into an epic grind, even as the motivator switches from stats to skin. (Thought it should be noted, legendaries have the considerable convenience advantage of stat flexibility. This is arguably a kind of horizontal progression.) Note that there are plans for legendary armor, and supposedly something like a legendary backpack should come before year's end.

Don't you think that for a game that heralded no grind - it is really annoying to keep introducing things you yourself call  a "long crafting grind" and an "epic grind"?

Isn't this why people think GW2 is just like every other generic MMO? Because, we have developers that have no other creative vision other than to keep introducing the same grind we find in every other generic MMO that has tried to copy WoW's success and fallen way short?

I'm sorry, but it is neither innovative nor interesting to keep adding these grinds to games, especially when games of the same title had no such similar grinds, and those they did had were much better implemented.

#29 MisterJaguar25

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:46 PM

(that like was an accident when I meant to quote you, hence why its not their anymore)


View PostEl Duderino, on 16 October 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

I guess you don't understand the term "balance" or "fair" do you?

Unless you control who's on both teams and what their proffs/traits/skills/gear are, then pvp is, by default, unbalanced. That's just how pvp is.



Quote

No, my post is logical. And, now that you think ascended gear isn't in the game to make "vertical progression" people happy, how do you explain the reason for adding it when there is already legendaries to fulfill need to give people something to grind for a long time?

Again, just because you want to keep changing your arguments doesn't make the addition and implementation of ascended gear any better. It just shows that you are a flip flopper trying to defend GW2 against people who have legitimate problems and concerns about the direction of the game.

If you read my first post in this thread, you'd know it's possible that they thought exotics were too quick and easy to obtain. And there's a difference between "flip flopping" and finding a new point that you hadn't previously considered and then changing your stance because of that, as I very clearly said in the very post you're quoting.

Edited by MisterJaguar25, 16 October 2013 - 01:48 PM.


#30 TastySlop

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:47 PM

Increased dungeon difficulty is in the works in the form of optional gambits. This will quickly become the normal way that dungeons are run except by newbie groups. You will be kicked from a dungeon group doing gambits if you are not in BiS gear with an optimal build.




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